Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 3rd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, my quick message to Hansard is that they can tear up the note I sent earlier. In fact, the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, has just made the speech I decided to make having listened to the debate. I do not propose to repeat what he said, save for the fact that the general thrust of his conclusion as a lay person is the same one I have come to. I read the briefings, considered the issue and listened to my noble friend Lord Rosser; I was then surprised when listening to the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner. As the debate went on, I started to have second thoughts. This is the benefit of Committee—that is what it is for. The idea can be taken away and reworked.

I will raise one point from one of the briefings, from Support Not Separation and Women Against Rape, which quoted the harm review. They said they found a pattern of bias in the court professionals which gave weight to the views of the child who wanted contact but dismissed the views of the child who did not. That is extremely worrying.

However, having come to the same conclusion as the noble Lord, Lord Randall, I will leave it there.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I view this amendment, which is in two parts, with some concern. To a very large extent, I share the views of the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, and those of the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge.

When I was President of the Family Division—and throughout the 35 years I was a family judge—I heard a great many cases which had some element of domestic abuse. I do not like presumptions, if they can be avoided. I remember that, when the amended Section 1(2A) was introduced while I was a Member of this House, I was very dubious about it, because I do not like presumptions. The important point of the Children Act is Section 1, which says that

“the child’s welfare shall be the court’s paramount consideration.”

Any family judge or magistrate has to look at all the circumstances and decide whether it is appropriate, in those circumstances, for both parents to have a relationship with the child after their separation. In normal circumstances, one takes it for granted that both parents will have a relationship, but there will be cases in which there should not be one.

I am not quite so concerned about the first part of Amendment 130, because it says that subsection (2A) shall not apply in situations which have affected the child. Even so, it should be a matter where the welfare of the child is paramount and the judge exercises his or her discretion, having come to a conclusion based on all the facts.

I am particularly opposed to the second part of Amendment 130: the restrictions on Section 9. This is, first, because it does not require domestic abuse to have affected the child. Other points have been made on this by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, with which I entirely agree, but I can see circumstances where a child was for one reason or another—possibly at boarding school or away on holiday—not present when there was domestic abuse between the parents, and the child had no knowledge of it. In those circumstances, it would not be inappropriate for the child to have unsupervised contact with a parent who had done absolutely nothing wrong to the child but who may have been involved in a single or unusual circumstance which could be classified as domestic abuse of the other parent.

This draconian proposal that Section 9 be restricted is inappropriate, although I entirely understand and share the concerns about the parents—mothers as well as fathers—who have been given unsupervised contact where there are issues of domestic abuse which are true, where the children are then killed. That is extremely sad; there should be adequate training of all judges and/or magistrates trying family cases. It may be more important to get the Ministry of Justice to discuss with the Judicial College and the President of the Family Division whether the training of judges and magistrates in issues of domestic abuse, to which I shall refer on the next group, should be improved. I will later refer to a useful case in the Court of Appeal which has been discussing this.

I am completely opposed to the second part of Amendment 130. I am sympathetic to what lies behind it, but I believe there should be a broader consideration of whether, where the welfare of the children must be paramount, there should be any presumptions of any sort—but certainly not in the way this has been drafted.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

In place of the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, I call the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann.

--- Later in debate ---

Victims of domestic abuse often have to leave jobs; they would have to pay for the refuge if they were working, and the cost can be several hundreds of pounds a week. They are left sometimes trying to fight for a small amount of maintenance from the perpetrators —if indeed they can manage this—but they are not left with the funds to pay for such contact. That can be damned expensive to finance, and can drain the rest of the finances, adding to the pressures. The victims will have sometimes used all available funds to leave the abuse and start life again. These costs should fall on the perpetrator, partly to prove that they genuinely wish to see the child, and not simply using this contact as an excuse to see the victim at contact centres.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I strongly support as much training as possibly can be given to everyone who works in any way in the family courts, but I strongly oppose the proposal that this provision should be in primary legislation. This is a matter for the Ministry of Justice; in relation to judges and magistrates in particular, it should be a matter for the Judicial College.

I am interested to see that magistrates who sit in the family proceedings courts have been consistently ignored in this debate, throughout many of the amendments. Many of these cases are actually in the family proceedings courts. Both the judiciary and magistrates have specific training from the Judicial College. I used to be the chairman of family training in the predecessor to the Judicial College; I certainly gained a great deal from seeking the advice outside the judiciary. Involving the domestic abuse commissioner is an excellent idea. She should be able to advise the Judicial College, particularly speaking to the family judges and the family magistrates, but this should not be part of primary legislation.

It is also important to bear in mind that each of the groups which are set out have their own training processes. Again, it would be important for the Ministry of Justice to discuss with social services and with the medical profession—almost certainly through the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the similar organisation for psychologists —whether they have adequate training for dealing with evidence of domestic abuse. Any other independent appointed experts should be looked at for appropriate training. I have no doubt that Cafcass gets training. It works with the Ministry of Justice and with the family courts, and its training is very important. But it is not appropriate in my view for this to be put into primary legislation.

I was interested to read a case in 2020 called H v F; the Court of Appeal gave helpful advice on the importance of the interface between the criminal courts and the family courts on domestic abuse issues and suggested that there should be specialist training for judges. I hope that that will be picked up by the Judicial College. It would be helpful for discussion for the president of the Family Division, but please do not put any of this into primary legislation.

However, although I do not support Amendment 133, I support everything the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, has said about the importance of training. I entirely agree with her suggestions and her very powerful speech, apart from the matter of primary legislation. I strongly support Amendment 134 because of the important research on trauma and its effect, as has already been said, on the ability of witnesses to give evidence. It is believed that very often the problems of not remembering certain things are because of trauma. There is a lot behind this which needs to become part of the training of all those involved in the family courts and domestic abuse cases. It is very important that there should be far more awareness of the impact of trauma on those who are the sufferers of domestic abuse.

Let me mention the two groups that I have referred to throughout Committee: the victims of forced marriage, and those of modern slavery who may not have gone through the NRM; even if they have, they need help for their trauma.

I do not think there is anything more to say about Amendment 136. Clearly the victim should not have to pay for the perpetrator to have contact; I should have thought any parent seeking contact should be expected to pay for it as a general principle.

[Baroness Verma (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I feel very privileged to be following noble Lords in speaking to this amendment. I want to put it on the record that I am chair of UN Women UK.

I shall speak briefly to Amendments 132 and 133. I fully support sharing information, from the perspective of women from minority communities. With the support of the work that H.O.P.E training is doing through Meena Kumari and her team, I have learned an awful lot, even though I have been working in this area for a very long time. I have come to the conclusion that the silos that exist have been compounded even further if someone is from an ethnic minority background, English is not their first language and they do not understand how to access services and opportunities. They live within multigenerational households, and when they finally try to leave and enter a refuge, it may not be equipped for their needs, or they enter the home of a friend of a relative who can also be put at risk.

It is critical to offer as much protection as possible and to try, through training of all our services,—whether it is the judiciary as in this case, or all our other services—to get a much deeper understanding of the perspective of women coming from minority communities, who do not have the opportunities to understand the wider support mechanisms that may be available to them. That is not just through language, but it is also through cultural norms of acceptance.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, talked about forced marriages and modern slavery. I have come across numerous cases of forced marriages, and seen the trauma and the effects of having lived within households where every single day was a day of abuse, not just by one perpetrator but by many family members. Trying to find the will to escape and then finding yourself sitting in court rooms with the whole family on one side and you alone as a survivor on the other—it is incredibly difficult to explain the long- lasting effects of that. I cannot imagine how that is ever going to leave you and your psyche.