Social Security (Personal Independence Payment) Regulations 2013

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Lords Chamber

Before passing these regulations, the Government should share with the House what legal advice they have been given on the susceptibility of this aspect of the regulations to judicial review. They should detail the staff and resources that will be involved in dealing with the many appeals that will be generated. They should also commission a cumulative impact assessment that would include the impact of welfare reform changes on other services, carers and Motability scheme users. Above all, they should not expect us to vote these regulations through without giving us clear answers about the numbers of people who will be affected and the manner in which Motability vehicles will be sequestrated and repatriated from the owners who are deemed no longer to qualify. I know that I am not alone in believing that these wholly underreported and ill-conceived proposals will come to define the Government’s approach to welfare reform, in a way that will undermine those changes that have commanded much more broad-based support.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the powerful speech of my noble friend Lord Alton. I share many of the concerns that have been raised in the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie.

I want to say a few words about the impact of PIP on deaf people. I gather that deaf people who are unable to understand verbal information without communication support will not be entitled to PIP. Support will be restricted to those who are unable to understand “basic” information. “Complex” information appears to be broadly defined as anything longer than a sentence. As this definition could apply to everyday conversation, I am aware that some people find the term “complex” in this context to be somewhat disingenuous. I hope that the Minister will set out exactly what this is likely to mean in practice.

Fears have been expressed to me that many deaf people who need communication support will find themselves without money to pay for it under these changes. If accurate, that does not seem to be consistent with promoting personal independence. We have heard much about how the Government wish to target resources, rightly, at those who face the greatest barriers. I feel sure that it is not the Minister’s view that deaf people are not among those facing the greatest barriers or that deaf people do not need or deserve support to be independent. This is another area where I hope he will reassure me, and others who apparently feel this, on this point.

I am particularly concerned about the impact of these changes on young deaf people who have just turned 16. Many of these young people will barely have begun their transition to adulthood. How will the department ensure that such young people are managed sensitively when they apply for PIP? How will they be supported if they are not eligible for this new benefit?

I ask the Minister to outline what plans there are, if any, to reform the disability living allowance for children. I understand that this may well be reviewed in future. We know that some 600,000 disabled adults over 16 will see their DLA cut. There is considerable anxiety that a similar proportion of disabled children will also see cuts once the new review gets under way. The consequences of that would be severe.

I, too, have greatly admired the Minister’s dedication to his increasingly difficult and complex brief, not least in working out the details of these regulations. I much admire him for that and know him to be a fair-minded individual as well, with a great deal of knowledge in this area. I hope that I can look forward to a sympathetic, just and kind response.

[Lord German]

My Lords, I would like to raise the issue of sufferers of Crohn’s disease and colitis, who may not have been able to put their case as strongly as they might have in this whole arena of the development of PIP. There are around 240,000 people in the UK who are sufferers of Crohn’s disease or ulcerative colitis—collectively known, of course, as inflammatory bowel disease. They are lifelong conditions that most commonly present first in the teens or early 20s, and the intestines become swollen, ulcerated and inflamed.

The concern that these sufferers have is around Activity 5 in the descriptor list, which is about managing toilet needs or incontinence. The “continence” descriptor is limited. It fails to take into account the impact of the frequency and urgency experienced 24 hours a day by people living with conditions such as inflammatory bowel disease, as well as difficulties in reaching a toilet, both at home and outside the home, cleaning up after using the toilet or an episode of incontinence. The descriptor is phrased around the need for prompting or assistance to manage continence. Although this reflects the barriers imposed by people who have learning disabilities and musculoskeletal difficulties, it does not account for the severe difficulties faced by some people with inflammatory bowel disease in relation to controlling their bowels, who are otherwise physically well.

People with inflammatory bowel disease may experience additional costs associated with buying food and drink, which are currently ignored by the descriptor. These may include the need to buy expensive, nutrient-rich foods to address deficiencies, the need to modify their diet to avoid other foods or additives or the need for frequent and urgent access to a toilet, while the fatigue associated with IBD may require a taxi to and from the shops or the use of online shopping facilities. Consideration is not currently given to the additional cost of utilities for people who may be forced, because of this disability, to live more frequently within their home, and laundry or high utility costs are often incurred by people with IBD who have to wash or replace their clothes more frequently due to soiling or extreme fluctuations in weight. Can my noble friend the Minister explain how IBD sufferers are currently handled within DLA and whether the descriptor as it now stands can be looked at again to reflect the needs of sufferers of this not-well-understood disease?

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 14th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I would like to say a brief word on this. I am particularly glad that my noble friend Lord Low has spelt out some of the concerns. It is particularly sad that we do not have with us the noble Lord, Lord Lester, who was so effective in designing the Sex Discrimination and Equal Pay Acts and who watched them through all their additional adaptations and changes. If anybody knows anything about the legal side of this, it is the noble Lord, Lord Lester.

I must admit that I was hoping for rather more information on the first debate, but I decided to say nothing and to see what happened. Both this and the first debate suffer from what I would call a reflection of the debates that we had on the general duty and on removing the duty to promote good relations. I find it very sad indeed that we have reached this situation after only two years, if that. It has taken so long to achieve advances in the area of equal opportunities, equal treatment and fairness, and two years is far too fast. One should let it be bedded in and create an atmosphere that can facilitate a rather faster flow towards equal opportunities on race and different religions, between men and women—whatever it happens to be. Had we let such an Act settle in for another five years, it might then have been worth while having a go.

We are being asked simply to strike out these sections. I may of course find that the noble Baroness is able to totally convince me with the detail that she gives that this really is not necessary. I hope that there will be an arrangement that will enable the noble Lord, Lord Lester, to have a say at a later stage in the debate on this subject. Frankly, without it we would be doing ourselves a disservice, quite apart from anything else.

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes]

My Lords, I hope that this is not too light a note, but this is an apology that I owe to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, of some 40 years standing. I remember that she wrote to me making a complaint about the Caledonian girls. I do not know whether noble Lords are old enough to remember that there were pretty dolly girls in the advertisements. The noble Baroness will remember that she found them offensive. I found myself on “Any Questions” when the whole matter erupted again and I said that I rather liked to see these nice brisk young girls. “Who wants to be served by old bags?” I said, only to receive at least 20 letters from members of the public saying, “You’re on the radio. How do we know that you’re not an old bag yourself?”. At this point I apologise.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My difficulty is that I cannot see what is added in Section 3 to what is mentioned in the other sections. Can it be explained why stating general aspirations of the kind that one finds in international conventions on human rights adds anything to the work of the commission? I am talking not about perception but reality; I realise that perception matters but in reality the Committee should face the fact that nothing in this Bill is taking away any of the commission’s functions. The commission itself has rightly said that it does not regard the removal of Section 3 as damaging to its work.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, it is very seldom indeed that I disagree with my noble friend Lord Lester. I call him my noble friend because he has been a friend for so many years. However, on this occasion I must disagree with him, and my reason for that goes right back to the Equal Pay Act and the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. How long ago was that? It is a considerable number of years. Are we entirely happy with how equal opportunities have proceeded? Has it all been achieved? I would certainly argue not yet. There is a heck of a lot to catch up on and to have accepted.

That is exactly why I recommend very strongly the amendment that has been moved, and spoken to so brilliantly by the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, and others. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, may well say that it is all written out there, but there is a section that can help the commission to talk to the different groups, get them together, and take them through the processes that might make their advancement as individual groups or as part of the community much more acceptable. That is a strong reason why we should retain this section. I will spend no more time than that on it but I feel very strongly that we need to retain this section.

[Lord Ouseley]

My Lords, first, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, on moving this amendment and on her very powerful introduction. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, missed that because it really represents the difference between what the victims of discrimination, whose rights are being eroded, want for a commission, and what a lawyer wants for an organisation that is a highly esteemed body, which can be looked at and admired, but is not reaching the people’s needs. That is what Section 3 and its retention represents for us who sit here opposing what is proposed in this Bill. That also helps to answer the question posed on many occasions about the notion that it would not make any difference.

We do not have any clarity about what the Government want to see the EHRC doing and how that relates to how people in our society—whether they are disabled or on the grounds of age, race, ethnicity or other characteristics—feel about a body such as this not meeting or responding to their needs, or giving any leadership or indications about how society can move forward in healing the problems that are afflicting the many people with those characteristics and who are affected by discrimination and the erosion of human rights.

We already know how far the EHRC has gone backwards in the aspirations that a lot of people had for it. That is not a criticism to suggest that it has not done good work because it clearly has, but it could have done so much more. To a large extent, I do not have any disagreement with what the noble Lord, Lord Lester, has said but I believe that Section 3 is an important aspiration. It is absolutely right to say that it is a statement of purpose and it is very broad. For me, it enables the commission to do the sort of things in a flexible way—notwithstanding the way in which it is required to be strategic—which enable people on the ground to identify with it. That is the worst part of the past four or five years of watching the way in which the predecessor bodies faded into obscurity when the new body came on stream and lost contact with people on the ground. That is where I am addressing my concerns.

I see the general duty as a statement of purpose and a mission statement. In no way do I see it as constraining the EHRC from doing what it needs to do or what it has to do, while recognising the constraints imposed upon it by government and the limitations of its resources. That is the killer constraint, which I think will determine what exactly it will do in the years ahead. No justification has been put forward for removing Section 3, other than the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Lester.

The loss of the notion of promoting good relations is very serious. I see promoting good relations as a common thread of connectivity across the diverse protected characteristics. It underpins the fundamental requirement of a body such as the EHRC to promote better knowledge and understanding of equality and human rights issues, to counter myths and prejudices with facts and to encourage good community relations across the diverse competing interests, which is quite considerable.

Should the EHRC have no role whatever in challenging policies, proposals and activities that damage community relations? Should it never challenge the Government? Clearly the Government would like an EHRC that never challenged their policies and activities. However, if the commission is not able to challenge, who will do that? This is the politics of madness at a time when tensions are rising, conflicts are on the increase, austerity is feeding prejudices, frustrations and anxieties, and blame and scapegoating are dominant features of everyday culture. Who is seeking to counter any of this? Should the EHRC not take on some of this activity? If not, why not?

The general duty is a binding and unifying concept that intertwines equality and human rights. It guards the fundamental role of the EHRC. The reason for the removal in Clause 56 of Section 3 is to weaken further the EHRC and heighten its impotence in the eyes of many people who need an effective EHRC to champion their rights and assist them in building good relations, tackling inequality and promoting human rights.

Violence Against Women

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Thursday 29th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin of Kennington, for this debate. Yes, indeed, let us have plenty more on this subject. As we know, violence against women has been with us for far longer than any of us can imagine, and probably since the world began. Indeed, in this country in the past, such violence was regarded almost as acceptable family behaviour; it was seldom discussed openly, and certainly not if it happened in a middle-class family because of the shame felt by the woman concerned. Thankfully, those issues are now slightly more of a priority for open discussion and solution.

I want to concentrate my comments on three areas in which I hope the Government have active plans to support and encourage. First, midwives and health visitors are those who have the earliest contact with mothers and their babies and they may well have reason to suspect that there is a history of violence in a particular family. Can the Minister assure the House that there will be enough trained and aware staff—albeit working with skilled volunteers, such as those from Home Start—to provide the family with the support needed in such circumstances?

Secondly, given the views of Schools Safe 4 Girls and the End Violence Against Women Coalition, and many others, that sexual bullying and harassment are routine in UK schools, will the Government encourage all schools to run compulsory parenting classes? I mean not just classes that teach children how to cope with their parents but classes that concentrate on ensuring that all girls, and indeed boys, know the essential skills and loving relationships needed to bring up their own children as responsible, well-adjusted citizens. Thirdly, as preventing bullying at school could set the tone for acceptable behaviour across all lifetime relationships, including employment, will the Government consider encouraging the successful practice employed by some schools where a slightly older child mentor is provided for each new school entrant and that mentor gets brownie points on the quality and success of that pupil’s integration?

Some progress has been made and we should acknowledge it. For example, and as we have already heard, the new law against stalking is an important first step in coping with a number of problems that the internet world has created for us. I have to say that I think that many more steps will be needed but that one is important.

I remain worried about the effect of the increasing volume and escalation of violent and explicitly sexual activities shown on all forms of media. Of course, my own Online Safety Bill is relevant for child protection and I hope that, ultimately, the Government will support it. However, my unease grows that there is a growing appetite for the explicit sexual violence that is being created, with its obvious implications for increased violence against women.

Children: Child Protection

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, perhaps the best way of responding to my noble friend is to refer to a very powerful speech that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education, Michael Gove, made at the end of last week, in which he set out very clearly our great concern about child abuse. He said that although all Governments have tried hard to tackle it, the state is currently failing in its duty to protect children. He made various statements in order to provoke debate and discussion. One of the areas that he focused on was accountability, the structures that are in place and the different roles for different people. He did not refer specifically to the children’s commissioners, but I know that because he feels so strongly about this matter, as we all do, he is very open to proposals which would lead to a greater and more effective approach to dealing with child protection.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

Does the Minister agree that the police are regarded as not being sufficiently effective in this area? Will she ensure that the new police and crime commissioners have this issue as a top priority?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As the noble Baroness may recall, when I recently answered a Question about the role of police and crime commissioners with regard to dealing with various different kinds of abuse, I had the opportunity to make the point that there is a clear statutory requirement on the police to ensure that they safeguard the welfare of children. This is a very important matter and a priority. Under the heading of child abuse—other noble Lords may wish to ask about this—there are things to do with child exploitation, which is a specific issue within child abuse. If that is what the noble Baroness is referring to, after the recent government review on this, CEOP has taken the lead in ensuring greater training of the police in the area of child sexual exploitation, and that is being rolled out in all police areas in the country.

Equality: EC Policies on Women on Corporate Boards

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is absolutely right. The case for women in senior positions, whether they are executive or non-executive, is clear. Women account for nearly half the workforce and women outperform men educationally at every level. We are also responsible for about 70% of household purchasing decisions so it makes sense to have women in positions of authority in the corporate world.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that a great deal of credit should be given to all sides of the House for encouraging more women in executive positions? Would she also agree that encouraging more boards to make flexible arrangements for men to work will increase the numbers of women who also have family responsibilities and are likely to come through to top executive positions?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble Baroness makes an interesting point. The sooner employers think about the flexible arrangements to which she refers in the context of men as well as women, the more quickly women will be seen not as a special case but as what they rightly are—equal in terms of ability, and the type of people that we want in those positions.

Child Support Maintenance Calculation Regulations 2012

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 15th October 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, because the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, have covered almost all the points I was going to make, I shall be very brief. It is estimated that the new system will lose between £3 million and £4 million a month, which is very concerning. Where is that going to be taken from if it continues? We would be very grateful for some reassurances. Although the plan is behind in its full implementation and in the benefit savings that we expected, a little more reassurance on that point would be extremely welcome.

The other point I wanted to stress was this business of the non-resident parent receiving unearned income that was not part of the calculations on which his contribution was being assessed. I have to say that I found it slightly odd that it was now going to be left to the caring parent, the one doing the work, to go out and do the research for themselves—I should have thought that that was a little over the top—and then come back and have the situation looked at again by HMRC to see whether it could make any adjustments. Nevertheless, it would be useful to hear from the Minister that a rather more caring approach should be given to the people who are doing the real job of bringing up the children, and that these sorts of responsibilities should not in future be left to those people to justify action that the Government should be taking on their own account.

Welfare Reform Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 14th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I, too, would like to press the point about the neutrality of the cost that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has stressed. If I may say so, I think that we all owe the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, a huge debt for the way in which she has pursued these issues and, equally, for the way in which the Minister has responded. I hope very much that when he is considering again, he will bear in mind the number of women—and it is women, I am afraid—who are on their own left to cope with children in this situation. That is a particularly important point, I would argue.

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, I had not intended to contribute to this debate, but I wish to speak briefly. As a neurologist with a long experience of caring for children with many forms of disability, I am fully aware of one important issue: that the nature of the disability may be relatively non-progressive—for example, in patients with cerebral palsy. The needs of children with cerebral palsy vary and change as they grow older. The problems faced by their carers—often a single parent, or both parents—become more demanding as the child grows older and is heavier and more difficult to manipulate.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, said, think again about patients with muscular dystrophy of the most severe kind. Boys with Duchenne muscular dystrophy, by the time they are seven, eight or nine years of age, are still mobile and still go to a normal school but walk with increasing difficulty. By the time they are 10 or 11, they are often confined to a wheelchair. In past years, many of those boys died in their teens. Nowadays, with vastly improved care, with improvement in their respiratory support and so on, they pass through that period of transition from childhood into adulthood, where their disability is greater and more demanding. Unless they are given proper support by carers and the support that they need in terms of respiratory support and suchlike, the demands on their parents become much greater. Furthermore, it is important to recognise that proper care and support in the home prevents a large number of emergency admissions to hospital, with major burdens on the National Health Service.

I was reassured at the beginning by what the Minister said. Can he assure us that the actual mechanisms of these three grades of support, and that important change from childhood into adulthood, are properly met by the provisions of this Bill? Will he also assure us that the recognition that disability is not static and that demands on the carers vary is fully taken account of in the decisions that are being made?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I shall be even briefer in supporting my noble friend Lord Best. My noble friend Lord Wigley has pointed out the vulnerable groups that will suffer from this provision. My noble friend Lord Best has made an effort to concentrate on the groups that will suffer most. Therefore, I very much hope that these groups will be excepted by the Minister. Given the regional differences in the price of housing and all the other problems, without this sort of amelioration it is too worrying to think of the consequences of wanting to claim this sum of money from the people least able to pay it.

--- Later in debate ---

In saying that, and in conclusion, I would say that I have pressed my noble friend on the Front Bench to make absolutely clear, or as clear as he can, that this is not just going to be a set of regulations shoved in front of the House, with a yes or no answer at some point in a few months’ time. We need an assurance of a proper consultation. I have not sought to achieve this mechanistically by an amendment but by a proper consultation and a willingness to go back to a first draft of the regulations as a result of that consultation—something more elaborate and participative than we usually have with statutory instruments. That is important, and it would help me enormously if my noble friend could make it clear that that is the way he will proceed. Subject to that, I hope very much that the House will go along with my noble friend’s compromise amendment this evening.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I am another of those who very much backed the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. I was amazed and encouraged by the immense cross-party support for what he aimed to achieve. I remind noble Lords that the majority was, I think, 142 votes. However, I find this situation difficult. I certainly have been briefed again by Gingerbread and other organisations, which very much support the amendment in the name of my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss. She has told us that she will move the amendment on behalf of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay.

Looking at the scene as it is now, the statutory maintenance scheme exists because it is in the interests of society that all children are properly supported by both parents, including when they separate. It is right to encourage and support parents to do the right thing and to make the arrangements, which of course we have all heard about, as a means of people sorting out their own affairs. It is equally right for the state to step in to secure maintenance for children—the emphasis is on the children—if the non-resident parent, despite being given every chance, still fails to pay of his own accord.

With something like 46 per cent of parents with care receiving less than £20 per week in maintenance—I find that figure slightly at odds with the enormous figures that the Minister has given us today on the amount that will go to children and single parents—the risk is that those likely to receive only modest amounts of child maintenance will look at the collection charges and decide that it is hardly worth all the hassle from the non-resident parent to insist that CMEC collects the maintenance. However, is it in the best interests of the taxpayer if such parents are priced out of the system or money for their children is reduced by collection charges? Making children poorer in this way surely will not benefit children or society in the long run. It is all likely to cost us more, as we probably all recognise.

I have had an indication from my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss that she is unlikely to press her amendment. I must admit that my concern, and the concern of most of us, is for those families who are on their own and where possibly, if not certainly in too large a number of cases, there has been violence at home and the family is perhaps living in dread of any form of contact with the father. However, they are still expected to pay—what is it?—a 7.5 per cent or 7 to 12 per cent continuous fee as long as the money is collected. I really do not like that situation.

I have to admit that if there was a Division, I would certainly vote for the amendment moved by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, but if there is to be no vote, I cannot exercise my right to do that. I think that I have said enough.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, after almost 10 years on the opposition Front Bench as spokesman on social security, and despite the attractions of debating intellectually with the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who was the Minister throughout the period, I decided never to speak on the subject again, but I fear I am provoked. Like others who were involved with the then Child Support Agency, I bear quite a number of scars. On one occasion I invited all those who had written to me about it in a constituency to come to a meeting. I must say that I have rarely experienced such bitterness as was expressed by a second wife who was determined that the husband should not pay anything either to the former children or to the former wife. This, I am afraid, underlies much of the problem.

I want simply to say a word or two in the context of the statement made by the Leader of the House earlier today with regard to parliamentary privilege. I think that I agree with absolutely every single word he said, but none the less it left a degree of ambiguity because he pointed out that amendments in lieu to a Commons amendment should not be put forward if they are likely to invite the same response. The problem with that, if the privilege amendment is claimed in the other place, is that it is essentially about quantity and money—and here we really do not know. Clearly if the amendment in lieu costs even more than the previous amendment, it is not likely to be accepted and therefore is probably inappropriate. On the other hand, if the amendment costs somewhat less, we really do not know whether it would actually be regarded as invoking the same response. Basically, we are in that situation this evening.

No one is more determined than I am to cut the government deficit; I think that that is crucial. The argument that we are going too fast and doing too much is simply not the case. Many of the proposals for cutting expenditure have simply not happened yet. It was estimated the other day that only around 20 per cent have taken place, so that is very important indeed. Having said that, we have to beware of the Treasury going for cuts which are in fact not likely to affect the economic situation or, as was suggested the other night on a trivial amendment from the Front Bench, which would result in our borrowing costs in international markets going up. We need to assess things within a reasonable range on the basis of the quantities involved.

I would be grateful if my noble friend the Minister could say what the loss to the Revenue would be if the amendment put forward by my noble friend Lord Boswell were to be accepted. I get the impression that there would be no costs at all, in which case it would certainly be a legitimate amendment for us to make. It is more difficult on the other amendment, so it would be helpful to have some figures on that. But I suspect, as my noble friend Lord Newton has said, that in the present economic situation we are likely to find that this will come back yet again, and I am not sure whether that is something we ought to undertake. Given that it is a difficult situation, it would be helpful to have a factual statement from my noble friend on the actual quantities involved.

Welfare Reform Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, a Division on a similar amendment was lost by two votes. We must all remember that we have here a compromise that would mean that at least some of the huge number of children would not be as severely deprived of the many things that they need in their lives as otherwise. It is also a question, as we have heard graphically spelt out, of many single parents, mainly young mothers, coping on their own with all these additional burdens and the need to stretch the money in ways that your Lordships have read about day after day in the pleadings that come through to us all. I ask the Minister to give serious consideration to whether a compromise of some sort would do. Personally, I would prefer the amendment as it is to be passed in full; it is about the maximum that any reasonable, fair-minded person would be happy to receive.

The amendment tabled earlier by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, was passed. If the Minister cannot give us sufficient reassurance and this amendment is voted on and passed, the other place will have an opportunity to see just how widespread is the support for it across all Benches, as we saw with the noble and learned Lord’s amendment. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will think very hard about accepting this amendment, which was so brilliantly moved by my noble friend Lady Meacher.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, it has been said that the mark of a civilised society is the way that it cares for its most vulnerable. I remind the Minister that the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, encapsulated the societal burden of a failure to demonstrate that we are a civilised society.

I wish to put some figures on the table which have not been mentioned in the debate to date. The Family Fund is a charity that provides grants to low-income families caring for severely disabled children. In 2010, it had to pay out to a range of families, 64 per cent of whom had a child who was not receiving the higher rate of DLA. Recent figures from the Social Fund found that 69 per cent of families with disabled children are worried about their financial situation, with 61 per cent of those struggling to pay monthly bills and three-quarters believing that the high costs of caring for a disabled child are the cause of their financial situation. Other children in the family will suffer as a result of that, probably disproportionately greatly, because the psychology of a parent caring for a disabled child often dictates that that child becomes a focus of disproportionate attention.

Research by CLIC Sargent found that on average parents spend about £367 on extra expenses a month following a child’s cancer diagnosis and treatment, resulting in an annual spend of about £4,400 for parents of a child with cancer. When these families, whether suddenly or gradually devastated by illness, do not have the money they need with which to pay not for luxuries but very basic things to enable them to provide care for the disabled child, the other children in the family, the health service and society as a whole end up paying a higher price in many domains.

The amendment was eloquently introduced by my noble friend Lady Meacher. I urge the Minister to accept it, thereby removing the need to test the opinion of the House.

Welfare Reform Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Winston]

My Lords, I, too, also promised the noble Lord, Lord Layard, that I would chip in briefly on this amendment. As has been said, he is in a very different place—and I think they are probably all mad there anyway in Davos.

This is actually a very serious issue and I feel very deeply about it. It is a very good example of where there needs to be some joined-up thinking between what happens with welfare and the Health and Social Care Bill. This is one of the concerns that we have: more and more people with various mental disturbances—and of course it is a vast range of disease, much of which will probably not be helped by conventional treatment—becoming a particular problem in the workplace.

I support this amendment on the basis that a great deal can be done for mentally ill people, particularly those with anxiety disorders who are not necessarily severely incapacitated. The right support in the community—particularly, living in the community—is of immense importance. There would be a good chance of saving money for the Government if attention is paid to this area. I do not think that we would wish to press this amendment today but it still requires support even at Report stage.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I have listened to what has been said and there has been quite a lot of support for the amendment. Indeed, some of the figures are very alarming, including the amount that lack of provision costs the economy. My question concerns how much of what we are talking about in the amendment is available within a reasonable distance of where people with these conditions live. If there is not an adequate supply, which I have a sneaking suspicion may be the case, what are the Government’s plans to ensure a reasonable regional, at the very least, supply of this form of treatment?

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I support the amendment and I am very grateful to the noble Lord for bringing it forward. It is important that we do not allow this dimension not to have the necessary attention before this Bill completes its passage. Everyone accepts that mental illness is a widespread challenge and we all commit to the need for something to be done. Yet, decade after decade, we hear the same noises being made and we wonder whether progress has been achieved.

As has been said by a number of noble Lords tonight, it is not just for the benefit of the individual—clearly it is to the individual’s benefit if he or she can remain in work or get into work with the necessary intervention, help and support—as it is also clearly of benefit to society as a whole and to the economy.

Following on from the comments we have just heard about the regional dimension, I should like to add the rural dimension. It is difficult enough for those with mental illness problems in cities but it is sometimes even more difficult in rural areas where there are not the support networks within anything like reasonable distances. In any thinking that the Government may be doing on this, perhaps that also could be taken on board. Even though this proposal may not find its way into the Bill, I hope that the Minister is in a position to indicate to the House the thinking on the way that this dimension can be taken forward.