Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Jay of Paddington Excerpts

Friday 30th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, I added my name in support of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Rainow, for in-person assessment by the assisting doctor—the first assessment and the second. As has been said, how on earth can any doctor judge the mind—the physical and mental condition—of the person whom he or she may be ticking off to death without being in the room with them, particularly as this doctor may never have treated them in person?

I know that since Covid there has been an increase in remote consultations, but it is still the case that the average number of in-person consultations that a patient has with a doctor is three a year. In the case of consultation for assisted suicide, that such an appointment with the doctor is in person matters, as other noble Lords have said. We have heard a reference to telemedicine from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, but let us look at exactly what the British Columbia study reported of telemedicine: it limits the ability to observe non-verbal cues, subtle signs of distress and general context, and it fails to provide the emotional support, human contact and rapport essential to the therapeutic relationship between both parties in what is a shared decision. The study goes on to say that it provides limited evidence on long-term outcomes, especially with regard to hard data on assessment quality or adverse consequences. It goes on to say that ticking boxes rather than doing an in-person examination risks further streamlining to avoid an impact on scarce medical resources.

We know, for instance, from the Liverpool care pathway figures released in 2012 under the Freedom of Information Act, that two-thirds of the trusts had received incentive payments for meeting targets for using the pathway, amounting to around £12 million—that was in 2012. Telemedicine is also inappropriate for some patients: people with learning difficulties, autism, poor communication or verbal skills or mental health illness.

I conclude by asking whether the noble and learned Lord, the promoter of the Bill, disagrees with Professor Mumtaz Patel, President of the Royal College of Physicians, that face to face assessment really matters? She says:

“Face-to-face assessment is really important and then the wider decision-making has to be done as a team, through shared decision-making and with somebody who knows the patient well. It goes back to the continuity”.


Does the noble and learned Lord acknowledge the evidence of the “off camera” abuse example from the US state of Michigan? The noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, mentioned the difficulty of detecting abuse online at the very outset of the debate. In Michigan, a prosecutor noticed a domestic abuse victim being coerced off camera during a Zoom hearing. I hope the noble and learned Lord can reply to some of those points.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the House will listen to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, which is that she is probably the only person in the House—and certainly the only person who has spoken this morning—who has had practical experience of assessing people. She spoke very well about the issues which have been raised this morning in relation to the Covid epidemic, saying that, “There was not a clinical or ethical necessity to see people face to face to make proper judgments”. I really want the House to accept that someone with that practical experience should be listened to.

I will make one other short point, which is that I am again surprised, frankly, by the number of people who have spoken this morning who, without, as it were, even mentioning the question of the circumstances of those who are terminally ill and are asking for assistance, talk so much about administrative procedures, the way in which a network might be formed, or the way in which technology could be used. Frankly, I would like to hear a little more from everybody who contributes about the circumstances and problems of those who are actually seeking assisted dying and who may well be those who, frankly, for one reason or another—because they are physically in a way that they cannot do it, or they are perhaps geographically remote or have other circumstances which prevent them being able to access a face-to-face agreement or a face-to-face assessment—none the less very much want an assisted death for their terminal illness. Their concerns should be the ones we primarily consider.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, just asked us to consider the circumstances of those who are seeking an assisted death, but I would like to give a salutary lesson—I am sorry to disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada.

My father was taken ill during the Covid pandemic. He did not have a smartphone and was not able to have an in-person consultation. He had jaundice. The message he came away with from speaking to a doctor on the telephone—the doctor had never met him—was, “It’s pancreatic cancer”. My father then spent weeks saying goodbye to all his relatives and friends. By the time relevant tests had been done, it was shown that he did not have pancreatic cancer.

That demonstrates one of the flaws of doing something remotely, which is: what are the messages? The doctors are not getting the cues and the patient is not necessarily hearing what the doctor is saying. I am sure that the doctor did not say, “Mr Smith, you have pancreatic cancer”—clearly, they could not have said that—but that was the message that my father heard. I therefore very strongly support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Rainow, and two of the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra.

However, I want to express one serious reservation about Amendment 406A from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. If the discussion has to be taken by video conference, it might not be appropriate to say that in every circumstance the only person who should be on that call is the patient. We all know that, when you go to the doctors, even if you are there in person, you have capacity, you are a rational person and you do not have any cognitive difficulties, you do not hear everything. Sometimes, if it is a difficult diagnosis, you do not take everything on board. For some people who are told that they have a terminal diagnosis and understand that that is the case—unlike in the false case of my late father, who did not have a terminal condition at that stage—we know what their settled will is. There are several people in your Lordships’ House who have what their settled will is very clearly on record, in the public domain. But there will be other people with whom the doctor has never spoken before, so they cannot know whether it is somebody’s settled will in a way that the legislation requires.

If, then, there has to be a video conversation, or indeed an in-person conversation, it might be appropriate for there to be an independent advocate or somebody else who would support that person and could say, “The doctor did not really say that, you know”. We need to think about real-life cases. Yes, we need to understand from the medical profession, and it needs to be from the perspective of somebody with a terminal diagnosis, but we also need to understand the reality for ordinary people who do not have the advantages of the internet or the accessibility that Members of your Lordships’ House have.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, and to say how pleased I am, as I am sure all noble Lords are, that she is very much still with us. I hope she will be for many years to come.

This is an important group because, as has been emphasised, scientific precision is of course not possible in this area. Nobody could say that a doctor can tell you that you will die within six months. But the Bill does not so provide. Its conditions require only that the doctor, and the panel in due course, are satisfied that

“the person has an inevitably progressive illness or disease which cannot be reversed by treatment, and … the person’s death in consequence … can reasonably be expected within six months”.

The term “reasonably be expected” recognises the absence of scientific certainty and absolute knowledge in this very difficult area.

The noble and learned Lord will give his view on this in due course, but why, in my view, is the Bill right to so provide? It is because—we are down to the fundamentals of this legislation—if I am told by my doctor that, sadly, I have an inevitable progressive illness or disease and my death can reasonably be expected within six months, I should have the choice of saying that I wish to end my life by taking advantage of the provisions of this Bill. Each of these amendments seeks fundamentally to undermine the core of the Bill and the philosophy that guides it. I entirely accept that its opponents disagree, but this is the core of the Bill and why it rightly so provides.

It is no answer to these provisions and this philosophy that, happily, having been given that prognosis, I may well, should I choose not to exercise the powers under this Bill, live for seven months, 12 months, two years or however long. It would be wonderful if my doctors were incorrect, but it is my choice, having been given that prognosis. That is what this Bill is about—we have taken days debating this—and it is right and proper that we ensure that that decision is made on a voluntary basis and that there is no coercion. But, once those conditions are satisfied, if I am told by my doctor that that is my prognosis, it should be my choice whether to use the provisions of this Bill.

[Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree with me that one of the international facts that supports entirely the position he is taking is that, in the now 33 jurisdictions where assisted dying is allowed, it is usually the case—I cite one or two—that, following that suggestion by a doctor, or prognosis or however you want to describe it, over a third of those who make the choice he has described then do not use the provision? There is no question that they want to die; they are simply using it almost as an insurance policy.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point, because this Bill is concerned with providing choice. Of course there is no mandatory obligation, but, if you are given this information, you should have the right—it is your life—to decide whether you wish to take advantage of these provisions. In many cases, if it were me or my family, I would argue strongly that there are other options and other things should be done. But it is a choice, and people should have that choice. That is the philosophy and what has guided so many jurisdictions around the world. Many noble Lords do not agree with that, which is their right, but that is what this Bill is all about.