Employment Rights Bill

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank everybody who contributed to this debate. I particularly thank all the fathers who contributed; they made it very much an issue for fathers and brought their personal experience to it. That was very important, and I value it.

The noble Baroness, Lady Penn, pushed and pushed on the question of the timeline. As far as I understand it, it is starting to happen and will start within the first year of a Labour Government, but there remains a question about when it will finish. Perhaps the Minister can take away that question and see whether he could bring back in a letter before Report a clearer idea of what the timeline will be and exactly what it will look like. I must say that, if the scenario that the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, laid out is how it is going to be, I would find that disappointing. It would be very disappointing for many people in this Committee who have supported the raft of amendments so powerfully.

I ask that a copy of this debate is given to the Minister responsible for this review. I think it would help that Minister, whoever it is, to see just how strong the feeling is, across this Committee, that this needs looked at—in particular, from the perspective of fathers and the raw deal that they get.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, pointed out, this is a human rights issue. I am more used to talking about women’s rights than men’s rights, but I hear that this is one of those issues where the two come together and the one supports the other. It is so good to see this acknowledged across the Committee in that way.

My noble friend the Minister said he hoped that we had been reassured, but I have to admit that I was not—I am sorry. There was a lot of talk about better support for working families. What I did not hear—I will read Hansard—is a clear acknowledgement that this is about a better deal for fathers, and that from that then flows a better deal for mothers, children, families and the economy. The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, talked a bit about the costs, but this could be good for the economy and for business, and I think that perhaps that needs to be recognised more.

I will not say any more now. I ask that my suggestion that this debate be brought to the attention of the Minister responsible for the review is taken seriously—there is nodding from the Front Bench in front of me.

I cannot speak for the body language of all my colleagues here on the Back Benches, but I think it has been a very good debate and worth having. We need to think about what we want to do on Report, and I am sure this will come back in some form then. I ask that officials give more thought to what was really motivating this debate in what is presented back to us on Report, because I am not sure that they really got it—and this is too important for it not to be got. I will leave it at that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but I look forward to continuing the conversation across the House.

Amendment 76 withdrawn.

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Both these amendments speak to a vision of a more compassionate, inclusive and economically resilient society, which recognises and values unpaid carers and removes the barriers that they face. I urge the Committee to support both these amendments.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 135, to which I have added my name. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, especially given that she spoke from lived experience, which I think is really important.

I recently attended a policy breakfast about support for working carers, sponsored by the Centre for Care, Sheffield University. The unanimous view was that the leave has to be paid to make a real difference, and that is the message received from carers themselves, gathered by Carers UK. Many, especially those on low income, many of whom as we have heard are women, simply cannot afford to take unpaid leave. In the words of the Centre for Care:

“A statutory right to unpaid carer’s leave in the context of a gender-segregated labour market with a substantial gender pay gap is likely to substantially exacerbate inequality”.


The evidence it has collected shows that we compare badly to many other countries where paid carer’s leave is now taken for granted.

As I said on Second Reading, the argument rests not simply on the social and moral case—the huge difference it would make to the lives, health and well-being of carers—but on the strong economic case. It would increase the likelihood of carers entering or remaining in the labour force, thereby supporting the Government’s aim of increasing employment and promoting economic growth. As a Government-supported task and finish group noted, supporting carers to remain in paid work represents an economic opportunity. TSB, which provides its own carer’s support scheme, is clear about the value it provides for it as an employer, and therefore is one of many organisations calling for the Bill to include provision for paid carer’s leave. It is not just big employers that are supportive: a CIPD consultation with its members found that support among SMEs was not much lower than among large employers.

The original new deal for working people promised paid carers leave. I have a different quote from that given by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. At the Commons Third Reading of the Private Member’s Bill which introduced unpaid leave just a couple of years ago, the Front-Bench spokesperson said that

“the next Labour Government will be committed to building on this legislation and introducing a right to paid carer’s leave in our new deal for working people”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/2/23; col. 580.]

However, although he responded sympathetically on the issue on Report for this Bill in the Commons, the Minister could only say that, because the right to unpaid leave was enacted recently, the Government were

“reviewing this measure and considering whether further support is required”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/3/25; col. 952.]

I echo the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Young, about whether my noble friend the Minister could explain this shift in attitude. I completely understand that the Government need to consider how paid leave should be designed, not least because we need to learn from other countries. Yet what is there to consider with regard to the need for further support, given the body of evidence which overwhelmingly demonstrates the case for it? Surely, we can show our commitment to unpaid carers by writing into the Bill an in-principle provision to cover the introduction of paid leave once a review of the details is completed. This would be wholly in line with the spirit of the Bill and consistent with the Government’s missions—not least their overriding pursuit of economic growth—while demonstrating support for a group at considerable risk of poverty.

The Government have demonstrated their commitment to carers, with action already taken on carer’s allowance, although its loss for thousands of carers as a result of the planned PIP cuts points in the opposite direction. Therefore, it is all the more important to use this Bill to demonstrate our commitment to carers who are desperately trying to juggle their responsibilities in the labour market and to their loved ones and our recognition of the importance of care to our society.

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[Lord Katz (Lab)]

We may be talking at cross purposes. I am very happy to write with more details of the way that we plan to take foster care forward.

On paid carer’s leave, Amendment 135 would introduce a statutory entitlement for unpaid carers to receive their usual wage while taking carer’s leave. As drafted, the responsibility for covering these costs would lie with the employer. At Second Reading, and this evening, the noble Lords, Lord Palmer and Lord Young of Cookham, spoke powerfully on the vital role played by unpaid carers. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley for all the work she has done on fighting for carers, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, for speaking about her direct experience of caring. As my noble friend Lady Lister remarked, it is this sort of lived experience that brings so much to our House’s considerations of these matters.

I emphasise that the Government are committed to supporting those who combine work with care. However, there are not insignificant concerns with the amendment, which has not been changed since it was first brought forward in the other place. It does not give due consideration to the potentially significant costs it may place on businesses—particularly small businesses. It would create a situation of differential treatment between those taking leave to care for a family member or loved one under the Carer’s Leave Act and those taking other forms of leave, such as maternity and paternity leave. Those taking carer’s leave would be paid their normal wage, while other forms of leave are paid at a statutory rate, meaning that unpaid carers would be treated more favourably.

Although the Government do not support this amendment for these reasons, I assure noble Lords that His Majesty’s Government is fully committed to ensuring that unpaid carers can combine work with their caring responsibilities. We are reviewing the Carer’s Leave Act, which was introduced in April 2024 and gave employed carers a new right to time off work. We have heard tonight, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, expressed, the depths of feeling and concern that this is done properly. We have had the baton of the Carer’s Leave Act passed over; we want to make sure that we get this right, hence the review that we are undertaking.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

I quite take my noble friend’s point, but we were not saying how it should be paid; we were asking for an acknowledgement of the principle that it should be paid and leaving it up to the Government to then review the details of how it should be paid. It would be good to have at least an acknowledgement that that is where the Government are heading.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I fear I may disappoint my noble friend slightly, but it is important that, if we are going to review these things, we review them in the round, and that I do not pre-empt that review at the Dispatch Box tonight. We are considering whether further support is needed, including potential options for paid leave, while being mindful of potential impacts on businesses.

It would be worth spending a little more time discussing the review, as several noble Lords have now asked about it. The review is under way and officials in the Department for Business and Trade have already spoken to over 70 employers, third sector organisations and charities, such as Carers UK, in the course of undertaking the report. We have held events across the UK, in Wales, England and Scotland, and this engagement will continue as the review progresses, alongside both qualitative and quantitative research.

I will answer a couple of direct questions on the review. To answer the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, we will be considering international examples. To answer the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, we will be taking into account the immigration White Paper, which he so keenly observed has just been published. The review will assess the impact of unpaid carer’s leave, introduced last year, while considering whether further support is needed, including potential options for paid leave, while being mindful of any potential impacts on businesses.

To respond again to my noble friend Lady Lister, we do not want to pre-empt the outcome of the review. We must allow it to run its course, to ensure that we make a considered, evidence-based decision about what further support would most benefit unpaid carers.

As time is running on, I will speak to Amendment 134. I begin by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, for bringing attention to this issue. I pay particular tribute to the work done by the charity It’s Never You, which worked with the noble Baroness on this amendment. I join her in paying tribute to Ceri and Frances Menai-Davis, who have so bravely and tirelessly campaigned in memory of their son, Hugh. I am so pleased that they could join us in the Committee to understand how seriously the whole House takes the issue they have raised—it gives us the opportunity to thank them again for their hard work on the issue.

This amendment would extend provisions on neonatal care leave and pay to the parents of all children up to the age of 16 who are seriously ill for an extended period of time, entitling parents to paid time off work at the rate of statutory neonatal care pay. As I have said, this is a very important issue, and I wholly acknowledge how incredibly difficult childhood illness can be for parents. Equally, I recognise the vital role played by parents and other family members who provide care in such circumstances. The importance of being able to spend time by the bedside of a loved one who is unwell cannot be overstated.

To respond directly to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, the Government are reviewing the existing entitlement to carer’s leave, as I have already mentioned, and considering whether further changes may be helpful in supporting those who provide care to loved ones alongside work. For instance, employers are able to offer enhanced parental leave beyond the four-week limit in a year, and we encourage employers to consider doing this in unusual circumstances, such as a child becoming seriously ill. It is important that parents of disabled children are supported to return to or remain in work, if this is what they choose to do. Parents of disabled or seriously ill children may be protected from employment discrimination, by association with a disabled person, under the Equality Act 2010. These may well be more appropriate avenues through which to consider the issue.

While I am afraid that the Government cannot support the amendment at the present time, I understand that officials in the Department for Business and Trade have extended an invitation to the It’s Never You campaign to further discuss its proposals as part of the ongoing review of carer’s leave. I hope that noble Lords take that as a promissory note of how seriously we take the issue. I certainly hope that the Menai-Davises will be able to contribute their valuable perspective on this ongoing piece of work.

Amendment 144, on carers and equality action plans, would require employers to consider caring as a matter related to gender equality within any equality action plans, with reference to Clause 31 of the Bill. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, for drawing attention to the disproportionate impact that is felt by women when it comes to providing unpaid care, and particularly women in the workplace. This is undoubtedly a very important issue.

The provision in the Bill is designed to emphasise gender equality issues, but this amendment risks inadvertently strengthening existing assumptions about who provides care within our homes, families and society. The clause as it stands can already accommodate consideration of the needs of carers. We want to ensure that a variety of actions can be taken to support employees in a range of circumstances, so we fully expect action plans to consider those with caring responsibilities. Action plans are a vital step in supporting employers to make progress on closing the gender pay gap. Acknowledging the needs of those who provide unpaid care will no doubt play an important role in this, given that it is a significant contributing factor to the gap.

Finally, I will speak to Amendment 81, tabled by my noble friend Lord Brennan of Canton. I think the whole House was moved by his words on the issue. He calls himself a vessel, but he was certainly no empty vessel—if he will excuse my rather poor pun for this time of night. The amendment would extend the scope of bereavement leave to include pregnancy loss before 24 weeks. It would apply to those who experience miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, a molar pregnancy, a medical termination or an unsuccessful attempt at IVF due to embryo-transfer loss.

The loss of a baby at any stage is incredibly sad and difficult. As my noble friend Lord Brennan said, it is not a disease or an illness. The Government acknowledge that there is a clear gap in support for those who suffer a pregnancy loss before 24 weeks and that there is a need for time to grieve and recover, which, as many noble Lords from around the Committee recognised, was so helpfully highlighted by the work of the Women and Equalities Committee. It would be most remiss of me now not to join my noble friend Lord Brennan and indeed other noble Lords in paying tribute to the work of the committee, and in particular of my friend and comrade Sarah Owen, who has so movingly told of her own experience and has thought about the wider piece around this important and sensitive issue. We appreciate the way in which the committee has brought this issue forward.

We fully accept the principle of bereavement leave for pregnancy loss, as raised in the amendment, and we look forward to further discussions with my noble friend and other noble Lords as the Bill continues in this House. As my noble friend Lord Brennan said, this can help bring a more compassionate and humane face to the workplace as people deal with events that, frankly, at this current point in time, carry far too much stigma, secrecy and basic misconception of the facts.