Child Refugees

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Thursday 27th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, in 2016, the UK transferred more than 750 children from France as part of comprehensive support for the Calais camp clearance. The UK also offered support to France following the recent fire at Dunkirk. We continue to work closely with the French to transfer eligible children under Section 67 of the Immigration Act and the Dublin regulation. The fastest route to safety is to claim asylum in France.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that the Government announced in a Written Ministerial Statement today that a further 130 children would be taken into this country under Section 67 of the Immigration Act, even if the reason is the Home Office having to hang its head in shame because it made an administrative error as part of collating the figures. That comes out of “Yes Minister”. Will the Government now reconsult local authorities, because many local authorities, not just in England but in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, have expressed a willingness to take more child refugees? Is not the Minister aware that many representations have been made recently about the availability of local authority places?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The administrative error is most unfortunate, and for that I apologise. I would not want that to happen. The good news is that we have an additional 130 places, and I think we should all be very pleased about that. The important thing here is that no child has been disfranchised. Any eligible child has been taken thus far, and 200 children have been taken so far, so we have not even got to the figure of 350. I would not want noble Lords to think that any child had been disfranchised because of this administrative error, which is, as I said, most regrettable.

On the consultation, we have consulted local authorities. For the record, I can tell noble Lords that there are 4,000 unaccompanied children in local authority care as we speak. Some local authorities, such as Kent and Croydon, host a disproportionate number of children. We are always very glad to hear from local authorities coming forward to take children through the national transfer scheme or to take refugee children, but it is not as though we have not consulted properly. I know that the Immigration Minister wrote to all local authorities, a national launch event was held, and more than 10 regional events were held in every part of England, as well as one in Scotland and one in Wales.

Child Refugees

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Thursday 9th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, we have not closed the scheme to transfer children under Section 67 of the Immigration Act. The announcement yesterday specified the total number of children that will be transferred pursuant to Section 67, as required by the legislation. Over 200 children have already arrived in the UK under this provision and more children will continue to be transferred from Europe up to the specified number of 350.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, I must confess that I am slightly puzzled because, if the Government say that there is a specified number of children, then after that total has been reached the scheme has been closed. I remember—it was not long ago—that the Prime Minister, when she was Home Secretary, told me that the Government were prepared to accept the amendment, and on the same day the then Immigration Minister said to me that the Government would accept the letter and the spirit of that amendment. In arbitrarily closing down a scheme without any good reason for doing so, I believe that the Government are in breach of their own commitments.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the scheme is not closed. As the noble Lord said, we will be accepting up to the limit of 350 but at this point in time the scheme is not closed.

European Union: Freedom of Movement

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Thursday 12th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether some European Union countries distinguish between freedom of movement for work and for other purposes, and how United Kingdom practice compares.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the free movement of persons for work and other purposes is provided for in the treaties and CJEU case law and largely governed by the free movement directive. All member states are bound by this directive, including the UK, and implement this through their respective domestic legislation. The directive sets out that in order for an EU citizen to reside in another member state beyond three months, they must be exercising a treaty right; that is, working, self-employed, self-sufficient or a student.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, has the Minister’s Answer not got to the nub of this? The three-month practice is what most countries in the EU follow—namely, that you can stay for three months and, if you have not got a job by then, off you go. We do not do that. Surely if we adhered to the same practice as most other EU countries we would be in a much better position to negotiate a sensible way forward.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government do not comment on other member states’ implementation of the free movement directive. We are about to begin these negotiations and it would wrong to set out our position in advance, but the Government are clear that at every step of these negotiations we will work to ensure the best possible outcome for the UK.

Calais: Child Refugees

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Tuesday 13th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think I set out in my first answer that that is precisely what we will do.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, while I appreciate that children have been dispersed to many parts of France from Calais, have all of them now been contacted by Home Office officials? Do they know their situation? If they have not all been contacted, by when does the Minister think they will be told what will happen to them?

Immigration Act

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Wednesday 16th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it will perhaps be helpful if I repeat the criteria on which these children will be considered. We will be considering: all those children aged 12 or under, not just certain children from certain countries; all children referred to us by the French authorities who are assessed as being at high-risk of sexual exploitation; and those nationalities most likely to qualify for refugee status in the UK aged 15 or under.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a bitterly disappointing Statement. Can the Minister confirm that, when the Government announced their response to Section 67 of the Immigration Act, the Government said they would respect the letter and spirit of that amendment? My contention is that the Government are doing neither. How can one say that young children refugees fleeing from Eritrea, Somalia and Afghanistan, for example, are not eligible to claim refugee status on a statistical basis? That is a breach of the 1951 Geneva Convention. Can the Minister please think again about this depressing Statement?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am disappointed that the noble Lord is disappointed in the Statement, because he and I have worked so productively over the last few weeks and months on Calais. In October, we updated our country guidance on Eritrea to reflect the court judgment, but we cannot base a threshold on possible future grant rates. The threshold is based on overall grant rates for the year ending June 2016 and the nationalities that have a grant rate of 75% or higher are Sudanese and Syrian.

Brexit: EU Citizens

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Monday 24th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assurances they can give to European Union citizens living in the United Kingdom, and British citizens living in other European Union countries, regarding their position following the negotiations for the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has been clear that she wants to protect the status of EU nationals here. The only circumstances in which that would not be possible are if British citizens’ rights in other EU member states were not protected in return.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, would it not show that we are still good Europeans if we gave an assurance to all EU citizens living in this country, regardless of Article 50 or whatever, that they are welcome to stay here on the same rights as they have had up to now?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think that the Prime Minister has been absolutely clear about her position. Obviously, there is a negotiation to be gone through, the timing of which I cannot state to your Lordships’ House because I do not know it, but that will all be determined in due course.

Calais Camps: Unaccompanied Minors

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Wednesday 19th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

What I can agree is that the number of officials in France is changing in accordance with the numbers needed in various roles. We have a permanent dedicated Dublin unit in the Home Office. In addition, on Monday, we sent nine officials to France to assist. I repeat again: we are guided by the French and by French law; we cannot do any more than that. We would not seek to usurp French law in trying to make the situation better for those children who we seek to help.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

May I do something that I do not think I have ever done before and welcome what the Government have said today? It is good news that child refugees are coming to Britain. I wish that we had had these statements several months ago, but it is happening now. I simply ask the Minister to assure us that all pressure is being brought to bear on the French Government, because I understand that they have a part to play in assessing the other children who come under the Immigration Act.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for his words and for the time that we spend regularly now speaking to each other about the situation in Calais and elsewhere in Europe. Not only is every pressure being brought to bear, but we are trying very hard to work with the French and not against French law.

Calais Camp: Lone Children

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Monday 10th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government are working very closely with the French Government to ensure that transfers are as speedy as possible. In fact, the Home Secretary is meeting today with Bernard Cazeneuve. In terms of children who meet the criteria under the Immigration Act, 50 of them have been accepted for transfer and 30 have arrived. We now have a dedicated team in the Home Office Dublin unit and we are working with the UNHCR, UNICEF and NGOs, together with Italy and Greece as well as France, to speed up the process.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the majority of the children under Dublin III have been identified not by Home Office officials but by British NGOs? Is it not a sad comment that we have to keep on, as it were, complaining to the Government that nothing is happening when they gave an undertaking that they would accept the letter and spirit of the amendment? They are neither doing that nor dealing with children who have long had a right to be here.

Calais Jungle

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Monday 10th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord makes an important point that we are not the only country in Europe. Today’s discussions have highlighted that each country in Europe has an obligation to the people who arrive in those countries. The news that the camp clearance is imminent has helped to focus the minds of not just France but Italy, Greece and other countries which may have received people and families who require asylum.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister clarify one point? It is good that we are, though all too slowly getting the Dublin III children to come to this country. What about the Immigration Act children, who were the specific subject of a vote that was passed in this House? Can the Minister give some assurance that it is just as urgent to get those over here to safety as the Dublin III children?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. We consider these children to be children, whether they are Dublin III or Dubs Immigration Act children. We now know that under the Dubs amendment 50 have been accepted for transfer and 35 are here. However, the noble Lord is absolutely right; it is vital to get children from either category over here as soon as we can.

Calais: Refugee Children

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Wednesday 7th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, on the question of whether we are doing things quickly enough, in an ideal world we would move all the children tomorrow. However, we cannot just take a child out of a country—I tried to make that clear yesterday and I make it clear today. Following due process is in the best interests of any child whom we are concerned about. We have to take account of the laws of the country in question—that is, France. When the child is in France, he or she is under its jurisdiction. We are working very closely with that country to make sure that children are transferred as quickly as possible. The welfare of the child is utmost.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, first, will the Minister confirm that under the terms of the Immigration Act not a single child has yet reached this country? The ones who have arrived have relatives here and have come under Dublin III. Secondly, will she comment on the news this morning that the Government are apparently advocating the building of a wall in Calais, for reasons which nobody can understand? Is that true and, if so, why?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not have the exact figures since the introduction of the Immigration Act but I would certainly like to provide them to the noble Lord. He is an absolute expert in this area, so I am very reluctant to contradict him. It is the case that 120 children have come from France under the Dublin regulations. In the whole of last year, the figure was only 20. However, I will confirm that for the noble Lord in writing.

I know that the wall has received press attention. The measure is intended to further protect the rocade from migrant attempts to disrupt, delay or even attack vehicles approaching the port. I hope that that provides the clarification that the noble Lord seeks.

Calais and Dunkirk: Refugee Children

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Tuesday 6th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I certainly sympathise with the sentiment of what the noble Lord says—nobody wants children to have to survive a winter in cold conditions. But there are several things that we have to consider. First, what is in the best interest of that child in terms of safeguarding? Secondly, there are laws that we have to abide by from various countries. For example, if the child is not in this country, we have to do those negotiations to get the child out.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, it cannot be in the best interests of any child to stay in Calais, in awful conditions with no proper safety or security apart from a few British NGOs. It is deplorable. If the Minister would come to Calais—I was there last Saturday—she would see what I am talking about.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for bringing that up. Perhaps I can clarify what I said about negotiating with other countries and their laws and, certainly, the welfare interests of the child. While a child is in France, it is under the jurisdiction of France. Of course we work with France—and most children are out of the camps very quickly when they have relatives in the UK. But there are all those issues to consider. Of course, nobody has to stay in the camps. Reception centres have been made available; there are 130 of them for people to go to rather than stay in the camps.

Calais Jungle Camp: Child Refugees

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Wednesday 20th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the threatened demolition of the Calais Jungle camp and the position of child refugees.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the French Government have not confirmed an intention to clear the Calais camp; however, they have consistently maintained that the camps are not permanent. We will continue to work with the French to address the situation in Calais, including by providing alternative accommodation for migrants in France, improving support available for all unaccompanied children in Calais, and prioritising asylum cases for children with family links to the UK.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Government say to the French authorities that to demolish the camp without making adequate alternative arrangements for the people living there will be an attack on very vulnerable people indeed? Furthermore, can the Government speed up the process of getting unaccompanied child refugees to Britain? We have given that undertaking; they are there in Calais; why not bring them here quickly?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. We are talking to the French Government about all aspects of the migrant situation in northern France. The French Government have made it clear that anyone who does not want to live in the makeshift camps in Calais has the option of engaging with the French authorities, who will provide accommodation and support. Nearly 5,000 migrants have taken up that offer since the autumn. On the speed of delivery, since the beginning of the year, the UK has accepted more than 50 requests from France under the Dublin regulations to take care of asylum-seeking children on family unity grounds. More than 40 children have already been transferred to the UK, and more than 20 who meet the criteria under the Immigration Act 2016 have been accepted for transfer to the UK since Royal Assent in May.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Wednesday 20th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope to be brief, despite the length of the amendments down on the Order Paper. The more I look at this issue—and it is called “subterranean development”, which most people would call “basements”—the more I realise that planning law is incredibly complicated. I spent some time as a councillor in Westminster and, in fact, I was a Minister for Northern Ireland, and I had direct responsibility for planning decisions. Nevertheless, despite all that experience, my knowledge was still pretty thin; I have learned quite a lot, but not as much as I ought to.

Basements are a real problem. Anybody who lives in an area where basements are spreading will accept that they are a problem. If you talk to people who live next door to where a basement is being dug out, they will tell you, “For heaven’s sake, we have no peace, we cannot sleep”. If they are shift workers, they cannot do their work in the daytime. They will say, “For heaven’s sake, stop it”. Addressing this issue has all-party support in both Houses, so it is not a partisan matter at all. Local council leaders are keen on a change in the law. I spoke to the leader of one London council, who said, “We can’t stop these basements unless you change the law to enable us to do so”. That is the purpose of these amendments.

Even if your Lordships live in an area where there are no basements, they are coming your way—even in Northern Ireland, they will happen sooner or later. But certainly they will happen all over London and in other cities. So it is no good saying, “This does not affect my area”, because it certainly does, or certainly will. One only has to look at the coverage in the Evening Standard. Week after week, there are stories of horrific basements being built. There are different types of basements; nevertheless, the stories are there, and they are pretty awful. My noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton wanted to be here, but I said I would do a little piece for him. He said that one has to be careful when digging basements. The construction industry is a dangerous industry, and there can be accidents in digging basements and there are important health and safety considerations that ought not to be forgotten. Not long ago, a basement was being excavated under a house in Barnes which simply collapsed, so it is not straightforward. There are quite horrific examples.

I have met with the Minister a couple of times. We have had good discussions, and I found her extremely helpful. I am hoping she will be even more helpful on this occasion and give me some encouragement. If she is, we can move on quickly. I beg to move.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord for the manner in which he has engaged with me and Members of your Lordships’ House in addressing not just the basement development issue, but the associated problems and the misery of people’s lives being disrupted by such developments. He has certainly enlightened me as to some of the problems in London, in particular. The Government are very aware of them now, if they were not previously.

I take this opportunity to tell the noble Lord and your Lordships’ House that in the light of the concerns he has raised on this and many previous occasions, we will commit to carrying out a review of the planning law and regulations relating to basement developments. The noble Lord promised me that I would be splashed all over the Evening Standard for this, so I await his side of the deal—that is a metaphor.

We will publish a call for evidence for the review by the summer this year, and we hope we will receive responses from a range of authorities and stakeholders and, of course, from the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, so we can take on his views and expertise.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Wednesday 23rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord opposite in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, on his tenacity last night; not leaving until, I think, gone midnight. My heart sank when I realised that he would not get on to have his say.

The noble Lord was one of the first people I met when I came into this House and we share a common interest. I have great sympathy for anyone who suffers some of the things he talks about. We have discussed the Death Star basement in this House, and the collapsing mansion, so I am not in any way denying that these issues exist and I thank the noble Lord for bringing them to the House’s attention. But of course I am going to disappoint him because I am going to tell him that the powers that he has described already exist. In fact, in some cases they are being implemented.

Local authorities are already able to prepare codes of practice for subterranean works in their area, and many prepare area-specific guidance to help owners ensure that they carry out the works legally and safely with a minimum impact on neighbours. As this amendment replicates powers that already exist, it is unnecessary to include it in the Bill.

I turn to Amendment 101BC. Local planning authorities are able to bring forward specific local plan policies limiting the scope of basement development if they consider that such developments are a particular issue in their area. In such cases, any planning application should then be determined in accordance with that policy. Basement development is not an issue in most local authorities, although I accept what the noble Lord said—that it is coming to an authority near him. But we know that local authorities in areas which are particularly affected by basement developments, such as Kensington and Chelsea and Westminster, are already in the process of introducing appropriate local plan policies to mitigate the impacts of such developments.

We have looked at a graph of how the trend appears to be going. What we are seeing now—to put it in context—is the hangover from previous permissions that are nevertheless causing distress in the area. I would be very interested to see how things look in, say, six months to a year from now. The amendment is therefore not necessary for the same reasons that I have explained for Amendment 101BB.

With regard to Amendment 101BD, the Party Wall etc. Act provides legal protections to owners of adjoining properties, but it is not in place to protect owners beyond next door, as there is unlikely to be damage to properties beyond the current distances set out in the Act. Similarly, introducing a new offence, as this amendment proposes, would not provide any greater protection to adjoining owners. In any case, there is no evidence of significant numbers of cases where notices required under the Act are not being given in respect of subterranean developments.

In addition, the amendment before us would introduce a new liability that goes beyond those currently imposed under the Limitation Act 1980. It would be difficult to justify singling out subterranean development over other forms of development for this enhanced liability. The Party Wall etc. Act applies to most subterranean development work and already provides for security for expenses to be covered by the award between the parties. Therefore, Amendment 101BE is also not necessary.

The noble Lord made the point that noise is not usually dealt with in planning permission. However, local authorities can consider local impacts, including noise pollution, when granting planning permission. The NPPF deals with noise, stating that, where relevant, it should be considered by the local authority in its planning decision. The noble Lord made the point that the GPDO allows basement development, but it is for individual local planning authorities to determine if development is within the scope of national permitted development rights.

The noble Lord also made the point that the Article 4 process is too burdensome and bureaucratic, and so local authorities are unlikely to follow that approach. It can take six to 12 months, but it is not particularly burdensome or bureaucratic—if I had eyes in the back of my head, I would probably see my noble friend behind me shaking his head—although I accept that this is a particular problem in particular parts of the country.

I turn now to Amendments 101BF, 101BG and 101BH. As I have already set out in response to the noble Lord’s previous, related amendments, and as I have just said, basement developments are not an issue in all local authority areas. Existing powers are in place which enable local authorities to adopt an appropriate local approach to mitigate the impacts of such developments where necessary. Similarly, existing legislation protects adjoining property owners from the potential impact of such developments. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who took part in this debate. I know that there are others who, because of the timing this morning, were probably not aware we were doing this now and would otherwise have been here. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, for what she said and I very much agree with her. Amendment 101BH suggests a schedule of provisions for a local authority code of practice, in which one of the issues is,

“the hours of construction and excavation, and ... particularly noisy types of construction and excavation”.

That could deal with both the time of starting and weekend working, although it may need strengthening. I agree entirely with the principles that she put forward about weekends and the starting time. I think she had a third point, but I am not quite sure what it was. I am sorry.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dubs]

I am most grateful. That deals with most of the other arguments.

I hate to put it this way but I think that the Minister has been trapped by her civil servants. I have been a Minister; I know what happens. Sometimes you just have to say, “No, I’m not happy, you’re pushing me into a position that I don’t want to be in, because in my heart of hearts I believe in a modification of policy”. That is what I said. I cannot help thinking that, if the Minister were to reflect, she would say that the weight of opinion is entirely against her and against the advice that she has been given. These are not things that I have invented. Local authority leaders are individuals of substance. They are elected to represent their areas and they want to do what is best for them, so this is not some political fantasy. It goes across the party divide. It is not something that the Labour Party has invented. In fact, far more Conservatives have approached me than Labour people. So I am not being at all partisan on this.

I would just like the Minister to think again, otherwise we will have to have this debate again on Report. I would much rather we debated a proposal from the Government. Then I would be happy to say, “Fine, that’s good”. I am happy to give way.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

No, I was just moving in my seat.

[Lord Dubs]

I am so sorry. We are all a bit tired after yesterday evening. I misunderstood that.

I am not happy about this. The weight of opinion is against the Minister. I deeply regret the line that she is taking. I hope that she will pause to reflect over Easter, otherwise I will have to bring this back. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Planning (Subterranean Development) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Friday 20th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, I am grateful to all Members of the House who contributed to this debate. I must say that I thought I had done my homework quite well but I learned a lot about some of the issues from the comments that were made—which shows how useful it is to have a Second Reading.

Perhaps I could refer to one issue that I do not know how to handle. My noble friend Lord Kennedy on the Front Bench said that he thought a Committee of the whole House was a blunt instrument—although those were not his words—and that a Grand Committee would be better for dealing with this sort of Bill. I am not sure that I have the powers to change anything; I am merely dealing with the bit of paper I was given. I think that he is right, but I will have to deal with that outside the Chamber.

I am moderately unhappy after this discussion. First, the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, who has done a lot of work on this, still believes, if I am quoting him correctly, that a lot of this could be achieved by regulations. I am not totally clear from what the Minister said that regulations are quite the way forward, although if it were possible then of course it might deal with some of the difficulties.

I have known the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, for a long time. We sat on opposite sides of the chamber when we were councillors in Westminster, so I am used to having little disagreements with her. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, who sent me the Kensington and Chelsea guidelines this morning, I have had a brief chance to look at them. I agree that the guidelines are very interesting. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for having mentioned them because they are certainly helpful, and I hope that other local authorities will take note.

I understand her argument that the smaller your house, the more you need to build a basement—I think that is what she said in relation to terraced housing. That is okay as far as it goes. The trouble is that the smaller your house, the more likely you are to disturb your neighbours and have a damaging effect on them, so it works both ways. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness for spotting a printing error, a typo. I feel embarrassed about that and can only apologise unreservedly.

I listened with great interest to the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. He certainly is an expert and I wish that I had had a couple of hours’ discussion with him before this debate. What he said bears a lot of thinking about. He referred to ground-water and to trying to improve provisions for local opposition, and I agree that they need to be spelled out in more detail. He was also very supportive in what he said about the structural difficulties of terraced housing. Not very far from where I live in Hammersmith there is a basement excavation going on, and I got some of my information from neighbours who told me how much they had suffered.

I was delighted with the contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. I thank him for the compliment that he paid me, but that is by the way. The experience that he described is exactly—to the letter—why I put this Bill forward. I could almost call it “the Marlesford Bill” because what he said and the accurate way he described it reflects what I have been told by people in a similar position. Unfortunately, local authorities have not always proved as helpful. The Kensington and Chelsea guidelines for local authorities set down ground rules that applicants should talk to neighbours and have a discussion with them to try and get agreement. That is pretty good stuff but local authorities do not do that, so in this respect Kensington and Chelsea is certainly ahead of the game.

Turning to the Minister, I had no idea that she lived in Primrose Hill, otherwise I would have been more circumspect. I did not for a moment assume that the house was hers. However, I hope that she is not too close to it, because if this proposal goes ahead, she will suffer.

The issue that I have not resolved in my mind is this. Unless Article 4 directions are easy and not too costly, it seems that we are still in the difficulty that where some basement excavations require planning permission, with all the safeguards that local authorities have the right to apply, covering hours of work, noise levels, and so on—although I am bound to say that if one shortens the hours of work, one extends the period of weeks or months when it goes on, so it is not a total benefit. But a lot of the concerns that I have expressed are about permitted developments, where local authorities have said, as they did in Wandsworth and to my friends in Hammersmith, that there is nothing they can do. Article 4 did not come into it; if Article 4 is simple and straightforward, that may be the answer, but if it is more difficult than that, I am afraid that it will not help much.

Lastly, as regards party wall agreements, the problem is that some of cracks develop after everything has been signed off. It can happen much later, possibly through ground-water and so on. So although party wall agreements may be fine within the period they cover, people who suffer damage to their properties may go on suffering it for a great deal longer.

May I bowl a fast one at the Minister? Could she arrange for some of us, before we get to Committee, to have a meeting with some of her officials to talk about this? Would she be agreeable to that?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Yes, I would be very happy to meet the noble Lord and others who may be interested in this area.

[Lord Dubs]

I am sorry—I should have warned the Minister that I was going to ask her that question. However, that would be helpful, because some issues may be better resolved if some of us could have such a meeting than if we simply put down a series of amendments in Committee, which may not be a subtle enough way of doing it. Having said that, I hope that the House will give the Bill a Second Reading.

Housing: Private Rented Sector

Debate between Baroness Williams of Trafford and Lord Dubs

Tuesday 23rd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to protect tenants in the private rented sector.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to creating a bigger, better private rented sector. We are empowering tenants through information, including our How to rent guide, and legislation to require transparency of letting agent fees while avoiding excessive regulation that would burden good landlords and raise rents. We have also taken action to tackle the minority of rogue landlords by legislating to prevent retaliatory evictions and providing £6.7 million to tackle rogue landlords and beds in sheds.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister will be aware of the recent Citizens Advice report which showed that 750,000 households live in substandard rented accommodation, presumably owned by the rogue landlords the Minister was talking about, and that this substandard accommodation includes damp, rat infestations and the threats of fires and falls. What are the Government going to do to ensure that private landlords meet their responsibilities, and will not the Government’s policy of the enforced sale of housing association homes only make the situation much worse?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government are ensuring that private landlords do not welch on their obligation to do work that needs to be done in terms of health and safety and substandard accommodation, and that they will not be able to evict tenants should they ask for that work to be done.