Caroline Nokes
Main Page: Caroline Nokes (Conservative - Romsey and Southampton North)Department Debates - View all Caroline Nokes's debates with the Department for Work and Pensions
(2 days ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Brian Leishman
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point, which I will come on to. He has clearly had advance sight of my speech.
The Government should of course lift the two-child cap immediately, and it was wrong of them not to make that a part of the King’s Speech.
The wording in the motion referring to a “benefits culture” is both lazy and classist, not to mention demonstrating the ignorance—wilful or otherwise—of the Conservatives about the struggles experienced by millions in this country. However, I expect that from some in the Conservative party. I agree that the welfare system is broken and that it needs changed, but the changes it needs are not to be found in this motion or in what the Government put before the House last week. Like thousands of my fellow party members, I do not expect that from the Labour party. Last week’s vote was a stain on a great party that should be defending and fighting for the people that this motion seeks to belittle.
Improving living standards should be the priority of this Government and every Government, and we are not doing nearly enough—not yet. A year into this Government, what people need is not MPs creating a living standards coalition group; they need them voting in this place to improve living standards, not writing letters about improving living standards. After last week’s vote, which came too late for disabled people, I urge MPs to wake up before making the same mistake again.
I urge the Government to resist going down the road of pitting old people against children or children against striking workers, or any of that nonsense. Leave that division and nastiness to other parties that seek to divide and conquer and create inequality.
Peter Swallow (Bracknell) (Lab)
I would like to clear up what this Prime Minister and Government have done. They have expanded eligibility for free school meals to include more than 3,000 children in Bracknell Forest; expanded Best Start family hubs, which is something the previous Government never funded in Bracknell Forest; expanded the warm home scheme; rolled out free breakfast clubs in primary schools; limited expensive school uniforms to three branded items—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. The hon. Gentleman should know that interventions must not be his speech read out at speed.
Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury and Batley) (Ind)
According to the latest DWP data, more than 11,800 children in my constituency of Dewsbury and Batley are living in poverty. This is not abstract and it is not inevitable; it is a direct result of policy choices by the previous Government and the maintenance of that policy by the current Government. One parent shared—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order! May I please urge people to make interventions short and pithy and not pre-prepared and read out.
Danny Kruger
I will come in a moment to the matter of child poverty, and I recognise the point that the hon. Gentleman is making.
I was just referring to the fact that all the parties except ours—indeed, it is unclear what those on the Government Front Bench think—seem to support lifting the two-child cap. The Liberal Democrats cannot seem to see a spending opportunity without grabbing it with both hands. Their spokesman, the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling), spent £4.5 billion just in his speech earlier this afternoon. Then we have the SNP Government, who have presided over higher economic inactivity and lower employment than in England, have missed all their targets for child poverty, and still clamour for more money for welfare.
Then there is the Reform party, which is sadly absent today. I do quite like the Reform party and I agree with its Members on lots of things, but there is a problem: they would spend money like drunken sailors. I can see what is happening and I am very worried about it—they will end up in an electoral pact with the Liberal Democrats with a joint ticket to protect welfare spending. I do not know how hon. Members feel about the anticipated alliance.
The hon. Member for Dewsbury and Batley (Iqbal Mohamed) and others, particularly Members on the Government Benches, have cited widening poverty rates over the past decade or more, and they repeatedly raised the issue of 4.5 million children, but they are talking about relative poverty. The fact is that relative poverty increased under the previous Government because, overall, the economy grew, as more people became more prosperous. As the median income rises, more people come under it; that is how it works. If relative poverty goes down under this Government, it will be because they shrank the economy. That is highly likely, but it is not an achievement to boast about.
Relative poverty is not a measure of anything except the operation of the law of averages. Therefore, what we need to look at is real poverty, absolute poverty. As we rescued the public finances and grew the economy, absolute poverty went down under the Conservatives.
On children, the percentage of children in absolute poverty after housing costs fell between 2010 and 2024. We pulled 800,000 people out of absolute poverty and averted over a million more people falling into absolute poverty. We had more people in work, a higher employment rate, and fewer workless households than since records began. We should thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) for that. Mention was made of Wilberforce and Disraeli. One day they will add the name of Duncan Smith to that great record.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. That should have been “the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green”.
Danny Kruger
It just doesn’t flow as well, but yes, apologies Madam Deputy Speaker.
Graham Stuart
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Given collective responsibility, is it in order for a Minister of the Crown to argue against a policy of his own Government? If I have understood correctly, it is the policy of the Government and the Labour party to maintain the two-child benefit cap.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. The right hon. Gentleman will know that that is not a matter for the Chair, and he is seeking to drag me into the debate.
Andrew Western
It is also not what I said, Madam Deputy Speaker. I said that we on our child poverty taskforce are considering all available levers in the lead-up to the child poverty strategy, which will come in the autumn.
The Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for East Wiltshire (Danny Kruger), made a point about controlling welfare spend. Yet again, we heard that the four years post-covid were not an appropriate time to tackle the spiralling welfare bill that the Conservatives created. In those four long years, the Conservative party got through three Prime Ministers, five Ministers for health and work, six Secretaries of State for Education and seven Sunak resets, yet the welfare bill continued to spiral. Child poverty worsened, and we had wasted years, so we will take no lectures from the Conservatives on welfare spend, and certainly not on the best way to tackle child poverty.
This party inherited the Conservatives’ shameful legacy of disastrous levels of child poverty and a broken social security system that fails to command people’s trust. Across Government, we have started the urgent work to fix these problems and to drive down child poverty once again, as the last Labour Government did, in partnership with the devolved Administrations, charities, local authorities and others, and to build a fairer, more sustainable social security system that helps people build better lives by giving them the right incentives and support. We will do that important work because tackling child poverty is a moral mission for this Government, and we will oppose this motion today because all levers are under active consideration as we seek to do so.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Before I put the Question, I will just remind the Minister that, like the shadow Minister, he should not be referring to Members by their name in the Chamber but by their constituency.
Question put.