Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill Debate
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Charlie Elphicke
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Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill
Charlie Elphicke Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
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Jacob Rees-Mogg
The hon. Lady is right that there is a free post, but parties are not publicly funded. They receive no cash for the free post; it is done without any cash transfer to parties, and they have no control of the money that comes to them. My point that parties are not funded by the state is right. There is Short money and Cranborne money, which I mentioned, but that is specifically for parliamentary activities, not campaigning.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. Is there a larger purpose here? Public funds—taxpayers’ money—are given to organisations to execute a social purpose. For that money to be used to interfere in elections is nothing short of an abuse of taxpayers’ money and trust.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
Charities should be able to campaign for their fundamental beliefs, but lobbying the Government with the Government’s money—taxpayers’ money—is a suspect activity. We do not pay our taxes to allow bodies to oppose or support the Government.
Charlie Elphicke
Will my hon. Friend confirm that, under amendment 27, companies such as Atos, which does considerable work for the Government, would be prohibited from indulging in campaigning?
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I would be shocked if Atos wanted to campaign. The idea that it should become a third party and campaign in seats is a monstrosity. Atos would be covered if it wanted to register as a third party, which is highly unlikely.
Angela Smith
My hon. Friend makes an important point that I will come to in due course.
This Bill puts the cart before the horse. Our contention is that this is the wrong way to tackle the very serious issues at stake and that what we actually need is an approach that focuses, first, on taking the big money out of politics and then places changes to third sector funding in the context of this much more fundamental and necessary reform of election funding. Let us be clear: that is the right way to tackle the issue because, to put it quite simply, the big money is not in third party spending. Political parties nationally—as my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) has said—spent £31 million in the 2010 election, compared with just £3 million by third party campaigners. The biggest third party spender spent just 4% of the £17 million spent by the Conservative party.
While the Government claim that this is an attempt to take the big money out of politics, they do not even mention the real source of the problem: the amounts spent on election campaigning by political parties. If the Government are serious about taking the big money out of politics, they would be looking at a reduction in the overall expenditure cap for political parties during election years. If the Conservative party, in particular, is serious about taking the big money out of politics, it will withdraw this mess of a Bill and commit to meaningful reform. This is a bad, and badly drafted, Bill and it is very unlikely that, however much it is amended, it will stand up to serious scrutiny as a fair and workable piece of legislation. It is a Bill found wanting, partly because of the lack of rigorous consultation and partly because of the lack of pre-legislative scrutiny, as the Chair of the Select Committee pointed out.
Charlie Elphicke
On the amendment proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), is it the hon. Lady’s position that organisations in receipt of public funds should be allowed to spend the money on election campaigning or that they should not?
Angela Smith
I have noted the hon. Gentleman’s interest in this issue in the past. I point to the answers given by my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland earlier: funding agreements between the state, local government and charities tend to make it virtually impossible for charities spending public funds to spend them on any other purpose.
This is a dog’s dinner of a Bill and, as the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) said a short while ago, even that description of the Bill is an insult to dog nutrition. So let us be clear: our invitation today to the Conservative partners in the coalition is to place reform of third party spending in elections clearly in the context of a cross-party consensus on political party funding and political party spending. We need to see a cap on donations to political parties—our leader has suggested a cap of £5,000—and we need to see meaningful reductions in spending limits by political parties in general elections. We need to stop this spending race, which sees spiralling sums of money spent on successive elections. No more dodgy dinners in Downing street; no more bankrolling of the Conservative party by a tiny number of wealthy City donors. The Electoral Commission itself has made it clear that reform of third party spending is needed, but not like this. Clause 27 has caused huge consternation in the third sector, because if passed into law, it would play a major part—along with the other clauses in part 2—in effectively gagging the third sector in election periods. The changes will have a chilling effect on our national debate in the year before the election. That cannot be right for any modern, 21st-century democracy.
Angela Smith
I will comment on the reduction to the thresholds presently. Suffice it to say at this moment that the Electoral Commission itself has suggested that the thresholds might even need raising, rather than lowering.
There is a real suspicion out there in the third sector that, unfortunately, many Conservatives would like to see charities pare down their role, shrink their campaigning brief and concentrate instead on welfare provision. That fear has already been borne out in this debate. There is nothing wrong with charities providing help and support for the sick, the young and the old, or for animals in distress—indeed, there is everything right about it—but they also need the freedom to campaign for the legislation and funding that are necessary to make the world a better place.
We have heard the views of the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) on the campaigning role of charities and voluntary organisations. The hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) said recently that
“many charities need to renew their sense of mission, spending less time at conferences and more time valuing their volunteers. They should concentrate resources on helping people rather than campaigns, lobbying and administration”
and the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel)—
Charlie Elphicke
The hon. Lady will know that I was expressing my concern that the chief executive of Save the Children had had a pay rise of some 22% since 2010, while many of our constituents have been struggling to get by. It is right that we should ask the charities to refocus on their front-line mission and to help people rather than helping themselves.
Angela Smith
I believe that the issue of third sector chief executives’ pay is being used as a smokescreen to conceal a real attack on the sector’s legitimate role of holding elected representatives to account and campaigning for the changes in society that it believes need to take place.
Charlie Elphicke
There is a legitimate role for third sector organisations in making their case to elected representatives, as they have done, but some charities’ pay is out of control and their administrative expenses are too high. In those cases, not enough help is reaching the front line. I am concerned about the alleviation of poverty and about helping people in need on the front line, and it is really important that charities should have those values—
The Temporary Chairman (Sir Edward Leigh)
Order. I think we are starting to stray from the matter before us.
The Temporary Chairman (Sir Edward Leigh)
Order. For the guidance of the Committee, I would like to get the Minister in by 6.45, so if hon. Members could try and speak for not much more than five or six minutes, that would be a great help.
Charlie Elphicke
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), who speaks to the Committee with great experience, but on this occasion I cannot agree with him. I support my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) and the wording of his amendment:
“During a regulated period no controlled expenditure is to be incurred by any third party that is in receipt of public funds”.
There has for some time been a problem with using public money to get involved in our political system, and that has caused me considerable concern. The Public Administration Committee looks at charities, what they do and how they act and operate. The findings of some of our investigations are a matter of grave concern. There has been a tremendous change over the past 15 to 20 years in the third sector and how it operates, which makes my hon. Friend’s amendment relevant, but also means that clause 27 and the Bill in general should be brought to this Bill Committee.
In the past 15 years the state funding of charities in Britain has increased significantly, while restrictions on political lobbying by charities have been substantially relaxed. Some 27,000 charities are now dependent on the Government for more than 75% of their income and the voluntary sector receives more money from the state than it does in voluntary donations. That fact is pointed out by the Institute of Economic Affairs in its report entitled “Sock Puppets”. It is important for us to be aware of that.
Mark Durkan
The hon. Gentleman has just said that there has been a significant increase in public funding to charities in the United Kingdom. Does he recognise that much of that increase can be traced to the fact that many services are no longer provided by the public sector and instead are contracted out and commissioned in that way? Organisations that, among other things, are providing services at good value for money to the public would be caught by the amendment.
Charlie Elphicke
The hon. Gentleman strengthens my argument, because the point I was coming to is this: if an organisation is in receipt of public money for providing a service, is it really acceptable and justifiable for it to be able to lobby and spend money to warp our political system for the purposes of getting more of it? Personally, I do not think that it is.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that one of the strengths of the voluntary sector in the United Kingdom is its right to have an independent voice and for it not to be assumed that, because those organisations are paid to deliver services, that independent voice should be muted?
Charlie Elphicke
It has been argued that state funding weakens the independence of charities, making them less inclined to criticise Government policy. In fact, there is a sense that there is a deeper problem. There is a risk that Governments could fund or create pressures groups with the intention of seeking to create a sock puppet version of civil society by giving the illusion of grass-roots support for new legislation. That has become widespread and even has a special name: Astroturfing. We all know that grass-roots campaigns being set up and “Astroturfed” is increasingly an issue, so much so that it has become part of our dictionary.
Stephen Doughty
When constituents write to the hon. Gentleman on a number of different causes that have been mentioned in the debate, does he consider those individual pieces of correspondence to be an illusion if they are facilitated by a charity or a charity campaign? I certainly do not; they are the voices of my constituents.
Charlie Elphicke
I was sent spontaneous e-mails on the Bill by a number of constituents. I believe that a number of Members of the House received such spontaneous e-mails, which of course had not been written by anyone else whatsoever. In response to those e-mails, I set out my position on charities and my concerns about pay in the boardroom and the amount spent on administration. The shadow Minister said that she is certain that people will be listening to the debate and will e-mail me right away to criticise me for the position I have taken, but many of the considered and detailed replies I received from those constituents who had e-mailed me with the so-called spontaneous e-mails said, “Actually, we see where you are coming from on charities and agree with your concerns. We think that they are important and that it is legitimate to raise them.” Far from what the shadow Minister thought the reaction would be, I had considerable support from people who, as she knows, would not naturally be supportive of me, or indeed my election.
Angela Smith
I feel the need to respond. I do not think that I said that third sector charities would be e-mailing the hon. Gentleman; I said that they would be listening very carefully to what he was saying in his interventions.
Charlie Elphicke
I thank the hon. Lady for that clarification. I think it is important that we represent our constituents. Following my direct responses to the 38 Degrees e-mails, many constituents replied and said that they saw that as a matter of great concern and that they agreed and had considerable sympathy with the position I had taken. I must say that I was surprised by that support. Having been forthright in my response, I did not expect to find much support from that particular quarter. I think that there is a message for Opposition Members to take away and consider, just as there is for Government Members. State-funded activists are engaged in direct lobbying of politicians and indirect lobbying of the public using taxpayers’ money, and I think that blurs the distinction between private and public action.
I also think that we all have a trust to uphold, in relation to the votes of supply and the impost we put on our constituents for the funding of Government and public money, to ensure that it is spent in a way that is targeted at particular social purposes and need. My concern is that if taxpayers’ money then finds its way back into arguing for more money to be spent on particular things, or indeed on the election of particular candidates or parties at an election, that is an abuse of the public trust that we are sent here to represent.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support. I wonder whether he thinks that it would be a good idea to table a tougher amendment on Report to ensure that lobbying money cannot be spent when it is public funds.
Charlie Elphicke
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making a case that I have made in the past. Government Front Benchers are listening and I hope they will consider introducing tougher restrictions on the abuse of public funds, so that all of us who care passionately about taxpayer value and reducing taxes, cutting the deficit further and faster, and reining in waste and excessive public spending are able to ensure that our constituents get better value for money from the Government and that their money is not misspent, but spent on the social purposes for which this House votes.
Mrs McGuire
I fear that the hon. Gentleman does not understand the financial reporting that charities have to undertake in this country. The reality is that if a charity has a service level agreement or project agreement, those funds cannot be used for any purpose other than that to which they are contracted. His case is falling apart the longer he stays on his feet.
The Temporary Chair (Sir Edward Leigh)
Order. I know that Mr Elphicke will be thinking carefully of other people, so he might like to bring his remarks to a conclusion quite soon.
Charlie Elphicke
Thank you, Sir Edward. I will not detain the Committee for too much longer. I wish to make a few more brief points.
Charlie Elphicke
My particular concern about the state funding of charities and outsourcing of services is that they should not be in a position to use that money to lobby for more Government funds. The third sector’s increasing reliance on Government largesse has provoked lots of discussion and caused considerable concern. Critics have accused Governments of using statutory funding to silence belligerent charities or to politicise good causes.
“Guido Fawkes” says:
“A charity that relies in the main part on taxes is no more a charity than”
a lady of the night
“is your girlfriend.”
On the serious issue of lobbying for more money, we should be cautious and ensure that it is not misspent and that the regulation of lobbying should catch up with the fact that the third sector has changed dramatically in recent years and, indeed, that the historic restrictions on political campaigning and political involvement by charities, on which the Charity Commission used to be very firm, have been relaxed.
Charlie Elphicke
Does the hon. Gentleman want an example of how a charity would be affected by the Bill?
Charlie Elphicke
I have considerable concerns about Shelter, which provides not shelter but advice and which is often engaged in campaigning that many Members would view as political.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that, if a charity commissions an opinion poll that uses spurious or skewed data to publish a result that the charity then uses to suggest that one political party is good and another is bad, the use of taxpayers’ money in that enterprise would be wrong?
Charlie Elphicke
The hon. Gentleman shouts that it is illegal, but the problem is that it actually happens, because the restrictions on political campaigning have been relaxed in recent years in a way that they were not in the past.
Stephen Doughty
I am astonished at the hon. Gentleman’s comments. Charities are restricted to act within their charitable objectives and that is enforceable by law. Indeed, some have been questioned in the past and if they are found guilty they will receive their dues. A lot of charities are being chilled by what the Government are saying, but they will be put in the deep freeze by his comments, which reveal the true purpose of a number of Members.
Charlie Elphicke
I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman. He says that charities are restricted from political campaigning. If that were the case, they would not mind or object to this Bill. The issue is the direct engagement of some charities in political campaigning. My concern, which I have raised time and again, is that there should be a much greater focus on ensuring that charities target help on the front line and walk the walk rather than talk the talk.
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)
I want to speak specifically in support of amendment 66 and more generally about clause 27.
Like several Members, I have had more correspondence about part 2 of this Bill than about any other issue since being elected. The undemocratic nature of the Bill has shocked my constituents, as well as charities across the UK. I urge the Government to listen to the voice of the people and this House and make radical amendments to the Bill rather than try to force something through that is clearly not fit for purpose and has not had adequate consultation.