Energy Prices

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I can only recommend that the hon. Lady look at switching energy supplier to see whether she can find a better deal. We know from Ofgem that people can save substantial sums of money by doing that—£200 a year. Her particular case is obviously regrettable.

[Barry Gardiner]

The Secretary of State rightly talked about the simplification of tariff structures. Will he give a commitment to the House to look carefully at the possibility of enforcing a rising block structure? In an era of rising energy costs, it seems inequitable that the highest per unit cost should be paid for the first tranche, which of course the poorest families have to use. We should be applying the “polluter pays” principle, which means that as we use more energy, we pay more per unit for it. Please will the right hon. Gentleman look at that?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. One of the first things I did on becoming Secretary of State was to ask for a serious look at the issue. It is unfortunately much more complicated than one might suppose at first glance, not least because there is such an enormous variation in energy use in different income groups. For example, among the poorest people measured by income, the variation in energy use, off the top of my head, was as much as a multiple of six. There could be dramatically different effects from a rising block tariff, which do not correspond neatly to what the hon. Gentleman and I would want.

We want the companies to take more account of the wholesale market. Up like a rocket and down like a feather—that was the old days, and it must end. I agree with the right hon. Member for Don Valley in her points on that, although I note that Ofgem did not find evidence that that was the case. We are helping, through greater competition, to get the consumer the best deal and we have done a great deal to defend the consumer interest over the past 20 months—rather more, I would say, than the right hon. Lady’s Government did in 13 years.

Durban Climate Change Conference

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Monday 12th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

We have to determine the exact way we disburse money for the green climate fund. As I say, we will make an announcement in due course. My hon. Friend is right to say how important it is that everybody has signed up to that global agreement.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Secretary of State and his team on what was achieved at Durban. It was a vindication of the European negotiating position. Can he provide the House with further clarity on the climate fund money after the start-up period? Will he confirm that at least 50% of that money will be provided for adaptation and that the bulk of it will not go to mitigation, as was part of the original agreement? Will he also comment, please, on the gap there will be between the conclusion of the negotiations no later than 2015 and the 2020 deadline for implementation of those commitments? There is a perception in emerging economies that the earlier they conclude the negotiation, the bigger the gap will be in what those commitments deliver in 2020.

[Chris Huhne]

Let me answer the last part of that question first. The most encouraging thing is that we dealt with both time periods. There is a clear commitment to dealing with a single over-arching global agreement from 2020, but there is also a clear set of procedures—admittedly, there are no numbers yet—for addressing the emissions gap from now through to 2020, so the process will not stop in 2015. We have achieved great progress in getting real action. The contrast is often noted between Canada, which is a signatory to Kyoto protocol but is busting all its targets, and China, which is not bound on emissions but is doing an awful lot. We are able to do an awful lot and that is very important.

Adaptation is key and yes, that will be essential to the efforts of the green climate fund, particularly the public funding. It is much more difficult to get private funding for adaptation measures—that is much easier on the mitigation side. I expect that the publicly funded aspect will be higher than 50%. I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the recent OECD report, which found that our existing commitments on and support for adaptation measures were among the best, and that will continue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Thursday 1st December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

Since my Department’s last question time, I have published the annual energy statement and the green deal consultation, announced a comprehensive review of feed-in tariffs, launched the renewable heat incentive and confirmed £200 million additional funding for the green deal. Today I am publishing the carbon plan and the Government’s response to both Dr Mike Weightman’s final report and the consultation on the long-term management of the UK’s plutonium stock. Next week the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), and I will attend the 17th conference of the parties to the UN framework convention on climate change in Durban.

[Barry Gardiner]

The Department says, “It’s the Treasury,” the Treasury says, “It’s the Office for National Statistics,” and the ONS says, “It’s not us.” So will the Secretary of State please publish the definitive advice on why the climate change levy fund for feed-in tariffs for solar has to be counted on the Government balance sheet? Is he aware that the European courts have recently ruled that a similar scheme in Germany need not do so?

[Chris Huhne]

One of the key issues is not whether something is on the Government’s balance sheet, but the effect on consumer bills. The hon. Gentleman cannot, sadly, wave away the question of whether this measure will add at least £26 to consumer bills in 2020, and possibly as much as £80. I will happily take this issue away and look into exactly which Department is meant to come forward, but I return to the point that what he needs to take into account is not whether something is on the balance sheet but what consumer costs are. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) is muttering at me from a sedentary position, but she claimed recently that she cared about consumer costs, and I do not seem to see that now.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Thursday 20th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I consider mis-selling to be a very serious offence, and it is a matter for the independent regulator Ofgem to investigate. As my hon. Friend pointed out, Ofgem has the power to fine energy companies. When customers have lost out, I expect energy companies to pay compensation. Unfortunately, Ofgem currently does not have the power to force companies to give consumer redress, despite the last Government having 13 years and several energy Bills to give it that power. This Government are not going to sit on our hands, unlike those on the Opposition Benches. We are carefully considering legislation on the issue as part of the next energy Bill.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Last week the Secretary of State wrote to me explaining that he believed that doorstep selling was a useful method for the big six in the industry to encourage people to a better tariff. Given that two days ago RWE npower became the fourth of the big six to give up the practice, does he not see some irony in the fact that the organisations that he was supposed to be castigating are way ahead of him?

[Chris Huhne]

The key issue with doorstep selling is whether the companies believe that they can control the work forces who are doing it. If they do not believe that the safeguards are adequate and that they face a reputational risk, that is a commercial matter for them to decide on.

Weightman Report (Fukushima)

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Tuesday 11th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her question. There is indeed reporting of a storm surge of substantial magnitude in 1607—the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) has raised this in the past. Fortunately, this is not quite as common an event in this country as it is in Japan, as one can gather from our having to go that far back in the historical record. We can count our lucky stars that we do not have the seismically challenged environment that the Japanese do. All I can say to her on the planning process is that it is completely transparent and open. If local people want advice from a number of different sources, they will obviously be able to go to those sources. There will be absolutely no shortage of legal or other expertise available to them to do that. I am confident that they will be able to understand the purport of the application for planning permission that has been made.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

I welcome the Weightman report. The Secretary of State will know, however, that two key issues arise out of events at Fukushima, one of which is the hike in the price of gas, as a result of Germany’s approach and the decision taken in Japan to evacuate the nuclear space. What is he doing about the knock-on effect that that will have on fuel poverty in this country and about the way in which the European carbon emissions reductions targets are going to be much more difficult to meet, given that Germany and other countries will be investing in gas rather than nuclear? What discussions has he had at a European level?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Gentleman asks about the gas price, and he is absolutely right: if my memory serves me, outside the United States the gas price is up by about 27% over last year. One of the biggest debates in this area is what will happen to the gas price. We have clear demand pull factors from growth in the far east and the fact that a number of countries are moving away from nuclear towards gas. On the other side, we also have a substantial amount of new unconventional gas resources being discovered—not least among them those announced by Cuadrilla in the north-west of England, where the company thought it had discovered a substantial amount of new unconventional gas. The balance between those factors is not at all clear, and that is one reason why it is so important that we have a portfolio of technologies—clean coal and gas through carbon capture and storage, nuclear and renewables—to enable us to exploit them all.

On fuel poverty, the first key point is that we have made the warm homes discount statutory rather than voluntary and increased the amount of resources available to it by two thirds compared with what was being paid by the previous Government. The Warm Front scheme is gradually being phased out because we are phasing in the green deal next year, and a substantial element of it will tackle fuel poverty. I believe it will make a big difference, precisely because it will tackle the root causes of fuel poverty rather than merely putting a sticking plaster on the symptoms.

Electricity Market Reform

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Four million families heading for fuel poverty does not constitute affordability; a £200 billion shortfall in infrastructure does not constitute security of supply; and a new dash for gas does not constitute low carbon. The Secretary of State knows, as the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) certainly does, that vertical integration in the big six is the biggest single problem. Why did the Secretary of State not address that in his statement, and when will he do so to break up the monopoly of the big six?

[Chris Huhne]

I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman’s expertise in this area, but slightly less respect for the passion with which he tries to hold this Government to account. Given that no type of electricity-generating plant can be built in less than 18 months—if I am not entirely incorrect, the Government in power 18 months ago were a Labour Government—the idea that any enormous shortfall in infrastructure investment is down to this Government is far-fetched.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Thursday 7th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I am very pleased to confirm that the Prime Minister has announced a new five-year carbon reduction target of 25%, to ensure that we continue to drive down carbon and energy use in the Government. By focusing attention on the issue among decision makers, we can help to move the whole country along. We need to practise what we preach, and we will.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Can the Secretary of State please tell the House what the exact level of carbon emissions from the parliamentary estate was previously, so that we can be absolutely clear what it is now, after the 13.8% reduction, or have the figures been estimated and banded?

Nuclear Industry Safety

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind invitation. We will certainly consider it, and we hope to see him in due course.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

I welcome the interim report. It would appear from the flooding risk assessments in conclusion 6 and annexe G that Dr Weightman may not have taken account of recent research at Delft university on eustatic sea level drop. I urge the Secretary of State to investigate that. As for the conclusion on MOX—mixed oxide—can he tell us exactly how the plutonium fallout relates to the testing of nuclear weapons? I believe that after the second world war Japan agreed not to undertake any nuclear weapons testing.

Fourth Carbon Budget

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I know that it is a heartfelt one because of her commitments to her constituency. I remember her being present when I opened the wind farm off Thanet. There will be enormous opportunities as a result of our proposals. We set aside £60 million for port transformation in the comprehensive spending review, for example, and we now have some substantial commitments of interest, including from Mitsubishi in Scotland, from GE and from Siemens in Humberside. Vestas is also talking about an area close to my hon. Friend’s constituency in Kent. I believe that we will see an enormous amount of investment in those crucial industries. Our carbon plan will focus on meeting our carbon objectives, but the work that BIS, in particular, is doing to lead the charge for the carbon economy is very important, and I am backing it completely.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Secretary of State on stepping up to the plate on this issue; it is really good that he has established that it is he, and not the Business Secretary, who is in the driving seat. I want to ask him about long-term clarity for investors. He mentioned that that was key, but he will appreciate that those wishing to invest in gas now risk seeing their investments stranded after 2025. It is extremely important, when addressing that question, that he review the proposals on electricity market reform to ensure that those investments can be maintained.

[Chris Huhne]

We have every intention of ensuring security of supply, and gas will perform an important role in that regard, in the short run and in the medium run. Given the worldwide potential for the exploitation of unconventional gas from shale and other formations, it might well be the case that gas will play a long-term part in our energy mix as well, through clean coal and gas, and carbon capture and storage. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point on board, however, and we will not have stranded assets of the kind he describes. We will be introducing our proposals in the White Paper on electricity market reform.

Energy Bill [Lords]

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Over the past year, energy policy has been in the spotlight. From the gulf of Mexico to Fukushima, no one can doubt the importance of our energy choices. For the first time, scientists have linked greenhouse gas emissions to an increased risk of major floods. Faced with a difficult financial situation, the Government’s objectives are clear: we must secure affordable energy supplies for the future and avoid dangerous climate change. Neither will be easy. The gap between our energy demand and our energy supply is growing and we are increasingly dependent on imported energy. We still rely heavily on unclean and unsustainable fossil fuels. By law, we must cut our emissions by 80% by 2050, and we must get 15% of our energy from renewable sources by 2020 under EU law. Our energy infrastructure is ageing. Our old polluting power stations are shutting down.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

While the Secretary of State is talking about the targets, will he expand on the dispute that appears to be taking place between Cabinet colleagues on whether the recommendations of the Committee on Climate Change should be met or abandoned?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Gentleman can take it from me, as a former journalist on The Guardian, that he should not always believe everything he reads. The Government will make our announcement on the question of the fourth carbon budget in due course.

Building the next generation of power plants will take time and money. If we are to cut our carbon emissions and keep the lights on, we must act now. The cheapest way of closing the gap between supply and demand is to reduce the amount of energy used.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Huhne]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. We are absolutely determined to ensure that this scheme is open to small businesses that are properly accredited and properly qualified as installers. I am sure that all of us, in all parts of the House, want not only the biggest companies but small businesses to benefit from the advantages of the green deal.

[Barry Gardiner]

The right hon. Gentleman talked about householders moving and the contract then being taken on. However, in the evaluation process that took place at the beginning, the estimated savings were based on usage by the initial occupier. What will happen when the occupier changes and those savings then change as well?

[Chris Huhne]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, when we are looking at savings or cash flow, money today is worth more than money tomorrow, so from the point of view of the installer, the longer the period, the more the work is worth doing. The key change in the Bill is to introduce the ability to go beyond the existing owner-occupier or tenant in order to spread payments out over a long period.

At the heart of the green deal is a golden rule—that for typical households, expected savings will offset costs. Each month, a green deal home will save energy while providing the same level of comfort. Money from likely energy savings will pay off the costs of the work. This is not a personal loan. Let me repeat: once a property has had the green deal, payment will stay on the energy bill at that address, even if the occupants then move out. When someone moves into a green deal home, they inherit the energy savings that pay for the work. Everyone has a part to play. This is about Government helping businesses and households to come together to deliver energy savings that are important on a national scale.

Through this legislation, we are creating a new market in energy saving. Just as the law establishing joint stock companies unleashed big investment, so this law will set the legal framework for a new green growth industry.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Thursday 10th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

We have recently begun to see the decoupling of oil and gas prices, and technological innovations enabling us to exploit shale gas might expand that decoupling still further. How is that affecting the Government’s thinking on electricity market reform, and what repercussions do they foresee?

[Chris Huhne]

That is absolutely right; this is one of the most interesting things happening in energy markets. The last figures that I looked at were very striking, showing that the price per therm in the United States is virtually half what it is in the UK or on the continent of Europe. Any electricity market reform must obviously involve a framework that could accommodate such changes, if this turns out to be a long-run trend. For example, if gas with carbon capture and storage were a particularly attractive technology providing low-carbon electricity for our consumers, the electricity market reform would have to enable it to be produced. It is not our job to pick winners in technology, but it is our job to ensure that we have low-carbon electricity and that the market framework can deliver it.

Electricity Market Reform

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Thursday 16th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

My hon. Friend knows very well that our policy is no subsidy to nuclear. We are not intending to impose additional levies on nuclear, but the no subsidy policy certainly encompasses the idea that if there are uncertainties they have to be met in the payments made, for example, on waste and decommissioning.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Capacity payments have resolved one problem the Secretary of State had, which was the falling-off of power in 2017-18, but they may have given him another problem, which is that there will now be another dash for gas. Many companies were holding off, with planning permissions in the pipeline or already approved, but they will now proceed with that investment. Can he be sure that the surge in investment for gas will not detract from investment for other renewables? In addition, will he make good an omission in his statement—that the emission performance standards will not apply simply to coal, but will also apply to gas?

[Chris Huhne]

On the first point, we are consulting on the capacity payments scheme, and obviously the details will need to be worked through, but I believe that it is potentially more radical than the hon. Gentleman may be suggesting. One of the things that can be paid for under the capacity payment scheme is demand-side measures to encourage companies to get consumers to sign up for temporary interruptions in their supply, so they can turn off their fridges and so forth. That is a way of making sure that we need less peaking capacity, which will be very important. That so-called negawatt concept would also be encouraged by capacity payments. I do not believe that a consequence would be a dash for gas.

On the emissions performance standard, we have made it absolutely clear from the beginning—the coalition agreement and beyond—that this is about stopping unabated coal, as the dirtiest of the technologies. We want coal to have a future with carbon capture and storage; we want to see gas plant, if it is built, built with the readiness to apply carbon capture and storage. In the long run there may be a role for gas with carbon capture and storage, but I do not believe that it will have the consequences that the hon. Gentleman suggests.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Thursday 16th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

From my contacts around the City, I believe that there certainly is an appetite to invest not just in new nuclear plant, but right across the range of low-carbon technologies. I hope that we will be able to describe that in greater detail in the statement later. On planning and other issues that could present obstacles, we are considering how to clear the way right across all the technologies we will need in a low-carbon future to ensure that that happens.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Achieving 16 GW of supply from nuclear, as the Secretary of State has demanded, would require one new reactor coming on stream every nine months from about 2018 onwards. The industry told the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change the other day that that simply would not happen because there was neither the investment capacity in the City to deliver it nor, indeed, the skills available to build what is required. How will he ensure the continuity of supply that he seeks?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Gentleman knows that the market has always been composed of different views. He is citing one particular institution’s view, but that is not the common view of other investors in the City. The funds will be forthcoming and we will describe the incentives that we are putting in place for the low-carbon future that we want in the statement later today.

Cancun Climate Change Conference

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Monday 13th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

I recognise and welcome the Secretary of State’s and the Government’s commitment in this area, but given that the $100 billion a year by 2020 was announced last year and the money did not come and given that the $30 billion a year fast-start funding was announced last year and did not come, why should any developing nation believe that Mexico will be different and not only that the money will come but that it will be new money that will be evenly balanced, as it was supposed to be, between mitigation and adaptation?

[Chris Huhne]

The fast-start finance is being paid. [Interruption.] No, actually, a very substantial amount is coming through. If one looks at our European partners and the Dutch Government’s website, which lists all the commitments that have already been made, including those outside Europe where countries have been stepping up to the plate, one sees there is a substantial measure of commitment. Things are not perfect and we are not all the way there but there is real money going through, and that can underpin real action early on to help developing countries in their efforts.

On the $100 billion, there is much more flesh on the bones than there was a year ago. We have the report of the advisory group on climate change financing, which has done a lot of good technical work, and it has been taken note of here. We will make progress through the rest of the year.

Annual Energy Statement

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Tuesday 27th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

I can confirm to my hon. Friend that below 50 MW the decision is for the local planning authority. However, I urge him not to fall into the easy trap of assuming that the only reason for building onshore wind turbines is for subsidy. The recent study on costs that the Department has had from Mott MacDonald shows that there has been a dramatic reduction in the cost of onshore wind. The result is that it is competitive in a free market with other sources of energy.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Thirty per cent. of the UK’s energy supply will be going off stream between 2017 and 2025 as nuclear power stations are decommissioned. Is it good enough for the Secretary of State to say that the private sector may supply new nuclear facilities? Surely he has to come up with a plan now to replace that 30% of energy and tell the House where it is going to come from.

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Gentleman and I have already had this debate, which is a bit like dancing on the head of a pin. The reality is that the Government’s job is to set a clear framework that will deliver the energy investment that we need to deal with the problem that the hon. Gentleman rightly raises. I believe that the statement is a first step towards doing that. We will have a clear amount of new energy infrastructure investment. I merely point out that it is really no part of the business of government to micro-manage decisions that should properly be left to the marketplace and the private sector.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Thursday 1st July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Huhne]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight that matter. The effect of failing to take account of these costs can be seen very dramatically in my own Department’s budget for dealing with the nuclear legacy of the very many years when we failed to make adequate provision for waste and decommissioning. It is precisely because of those warnings that we in the ministerial team are absolutely determined that that will not happen again.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State implied that my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) and the shadow Secretary of State were in some way misleading—in fact, I think he referred to fantasy—in their suggestions about his prejudice against nuclear power. Does he recall his own representation of 5 November 2007, in which he said,

“Ministers must stop the side-show of new nuclear power stations now”?

Can he reflect on that representation and see whether he is going to take it on board?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Gentleman knows very well that my line on new nuclear has always been based on scepticism about the economics. As he knows, no nuclear power station has been built on commercial terms anywhere in the world since Three Mile Island. That may be about to change because of the framework of prospective oil and gas prices and carbon prices. It is up to investors to take those decisions.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Debate between Chris Huhne and Barry Gardiner

Thursday 24th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

I am delighted to open this day of the Budget debate and I want particularly to do three things in this speech. One is to argue why the Budget strategy—what used to be called the Budget judgment—is an essential and correct response to the balance of risks that the economy faces. The second is to address the question that always arises at this stage of the business cycle, which is from where the jobs are likely to come during the recovery. The third is to outline why, like all other recoveries from deep recessions, we will build a new economy. Indeed, a large part of the answer as to where the jobs will come from are the new low-carbon industries which represent our third industrial revolution. In five years’ time, the outlines of a sustainable and resilient economy will be clear, thanks in part to the route map that we begin to sketch out in the Budget—the carbon price floor, the green investment bank and the green deal.

Let me start with the point about the balance of risks, and pick up where we left off in the last debate, when the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) was disparaging me for the “Greek defence” as he put it. This determines the timing of measures to cut the budget deficit. The last time that we debated these issues, the right hon. Gentleman accused me of performing a U-turn on whether there should be cuts in this year. I conceded that we in the Liberal Democrat part of the coalition had changed our minds. I also pointed out that we had done so on the basis of events in international capital markets, which have dramatically raised the risks of our being engulfed in a firestorm. If that were to occur we would not be looking at a proactive plan decided by Government, but at a forced reaction to market pressure, which would be unplanned, unconsidered and deeply damaging.

When I last made that point, the right hon. Gentleman said that there had been no change in circumstance that justified a change in judgment. So I looked up the figures for the key public finance borrowing interest rate: the 10-year bond yield for each of the afflicted economies and for our own. The 10-year bond yield determines the cost at which we finance our own borrowing, but it also sets the tone for interest rates in the rest of the economy. The 10-year yield for the Greek Government on the day the election was called in this country, 6 April, was a little less than 7%; it was 6.98%. It had hovered at or around that level for most of the early part of the year, yet during the general election campaign the Greek bond yield began lurching upwards, reaching a peak of more than 12% the day after our general election.

The right hon. Gentleman mocked my Greek defence and said that the circumstances were so different that we could not possibly be affected. I merely remind him that our Budget deficit is the second highest in the EU and currently higher than that of Greece. It is true of course that Greece has substantially higher public debt to national income ratios than we do, but that is not as consoling a thought as the right hon. Gentleman appears to think. Contagion does not work like that. It is, by definition, irrational and sees similarities even where a cooler mind sees differences.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Did the right hon. Gentleman have the opportunity to watch and listen to the eminent Japanese economist on “Newsnight” last night, who explained, on precisely this point, that were Britain to be paralleled with Greece, the bond rates in Britain would not be showing a four point spread at the moment and would not be being bought so avidly by British companies and consumers?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Gentleman makes a point about the circumstances, but markets travel on expectations. The expectations of what was going on in this country were very clear during the general election campaign: the hon. Gentleman and his friends were about to lose the election. It is precisely the case with the contagion in southern Europe that it spread quickly from Greece to Spain and to Italy. Italy, of course, has a very high public debt to GDP ratio and is clearly in a different category from ourselves. But that is not the case for Spain—one of the most substantial economies in Europe—where the central Government to GDP ratio is actually much smaller than ours. The debt to GDP ratio in Spain was 33% as against 60% in the UK at the beginning of this process. That is the problem that the right hon. Member for Doncaster North and his friends have to answer. It was absolutely clear from the rise in bond yields across southern Europe that we were in the firing line and it would have been completely irresponsible for us not to remove ourselves from it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Huhne]

I certainly do not believe that we can rely on achieving the sort of comprehensive approach that I am talking about merely through introducing pay-as-you-save measures. The reality is that there will have to be cross-subsidy, as there already is, but particularly to the fuel poor and to those in homes that are hard to heat and which need solid-wall insulation and so forth. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman will have to wait for the final proposals in the Bill, but I very much agree that we need a comprehensive set of proposals to deal with the whole of the residential housing sector. Those proposals must cover homes owned by owner-occupiers but also the private rental sector, where many of the worst offenders when it comes to energy inefficiency are to be found. I hope that that is what he will see.

[Barry Gardiner]

I am grateful once again to the right hon. Gentleman. I welcome the measures that he is outlining and we will want to study them carefully, but I am troubled by his suggestion that one element of the coalition agreement was a decision that green taxes should rise as a proportion of the revenues into the Exchequer. I have heard him make the argument, from this side of the House, that green taxes should be used to change behaviour but not as long-term revenue streams on which the Exchequer can depend. I agree with that, but will he explain why that element of the coalition agreement is now seen to fund resource into the future?

[Chris Huhne]

The hon. Gentleman knows, as I do, that the two points that he makes are not as mutually contradictory as he suggests. There is a long history in this country of applying so-called “sin taxes” to alcohol and tobacco, and they have had the very desirable effect of helping to get people off smoking and of cutting their drinking. The success of those taxes is not perhaps as great as many hon. Members on both sides of the House would like, yet I am assured by the latest Red Book documents that the Treasury continues to raise a very substantial amount of money from both tobacco and drink excises.

The reality is that, while green taxes will change behaviour, the responsiveness of behaviour is such that revenue will continue to be raised for a very substantial period. I have to say that, in the present circumstances, that point is likely to commend itself to the Treasury, which always used to follow the motto of Colbert, the finance minister of Louis XIV, who said that the art of taxation lay in plucking the maximum number of feathers from the goose with the minimum amount of hissing. In that context, green taxes certainly are a very justifiable way to pluck the maximum number of feathers.

I shall give way once more, to the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz), and then I shall wind up and let the debate make progress.