Amendment of the Law

Chris Leslie Excerpts

Monday 23rd March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I first take the opportunity to note the many valedictory speeches by right hon. and hon. Members who have chosen to step down at the forthcoming general election? They brought back many good memories of my time working with them.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) reminded us of the necessary steps he took after the global banking crisis, which, of course, the Conservative party wants to airbrush from our recent economic history. I am glad we managed to keep the cash machines working, but the recklessness of the banks left a dreadful legacy and deficit that has stayed with us to this day.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) spoke passionately. He has been a good friend to many Members on both sides of the House and he will be an enormous loss to Parliament. He is such an impressive individual and one of the great parliamentarians whose capability is incomparable.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) spoke passionately about her advocacy of getting young people involved in politics. Her achievements will be seen for many decades to come. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) also talked about their belief in public service and the need to invest in public services, and they told us that we should never forget the need to regulate the banking sector and make sure that the dreadful activities we have seen are never repeated. Those were fine valedictory remarks. I do not have time, in the final moments of several days of debate on the Budget, to congratulate and thank my many other colleagues who spoke passionately today.

This is the coalition’s last Budget. The final verdict is in. There are no more opportunities to pull rabbits out of the Government’s Budget boxes, whether they be red or yellow. For all the Chancellor’s complacency about walking tall and how we have never had it so good, the residual legacy of last Wednesday was confirmation that, if the Government parties get their way with their proposed public investment in vital public services, the rollercoaster will be pushed over a precipice.

The Chancellor tried every trick in the book to distract from the Government’s plan for extreme cuts, and he hoped that the public would not notice his record of failure on living standards and borrowing. Every target he has set has been missed and every promise broken.

In 2010, the Chancellor told us that the structural deficit would be eradicated in time for this Budget—it would all be gone—yet we are still borrowing £90 billion this year, which is only a 5% fall from last year’s deficit. Tax receipts should have been strong and tax credit costs significantly lower by now, but in the low-wage economy that this Chancellor has fostered—with an epidemic of job insecurity and zero-hours contracts up 20% in this past year alone—revenues have stagnated and the Government are spending £25 billion more on social security than the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the Chancellor had expected. We were meant to have an export-led recovery, heading towards £1 trillion-worth of exports by 2020, but we have already fallen a little bit behind that target—about £300 billion behind it. Moreover, our triple A rating, which was once this Chancellor’s litmus test of economic credibility, was, of course, downgraded.

It was not supposed to be like that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) has pointed out, and this is not where the Chief Secretary’s party wanted to be, either. The Budget spectacle over the past few days has been not of a responsible Government focused on the economy, but of an out-of-touch Chancellor in denial and focused on political survival and a Chief Secretary counting down the hours and living out his own fantasy, which even his own leader could not bear to sit through.

The reality is that we have had one and a half Budgets in two days from two parties that had nothing to offer the majority of people in this country. Those two parties are basing decisions on party political interests and their perceived electoral advantage, rather than on what is in Britain’s best interests. The Chancellor’s Budget was a Budget that could not be believed, and the Chief Secretary’s statement was just unbelievable—a Budget not for public services, not for working people, not for families and not for the NHS.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Chris Leslie]

I will certainly give way to my hon. Friend.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Now that the dust has settled from Thursday’s Liberal Democrat statement, has my hon. Friend had the chance to scrutinise the document—published online, rather than available in the Vote Office—and if so, may I draw his attention to table 2.A on the scenario input assumptions? Did he notice, as I did, that the source for the assumptions was not authoritative bodies such as the ONS, the OBR or the IFS, but none other than the Chief Secretary to the Treasury?

[Chris Leslie]

I commend to Conservative Members, who should have a good read of it, this very authoritative document with very carefully crafted figures:

“Source: Chief Secretary to the Treasury”.

It was a classic. My hon. Friend knows that the real Budget was in the Red Book. Shall I pass it to him? Perhaps not.

The Chancellor told us in the Budget that everything was sunshine and roses, but in coalition Britain, 900,000 people use food banks, 600,000 people are affected by the bedroom tax, the typical working person is £1,600 a year worse off and the NHS is in crisis. The Chancellor tried to find the best statistic, however obscure, to muddy the waters and deny what most working people know, which is that their wages have eroded year after year as we have experienced the longest period of prices exceeding income since the 1920s. He did that by relying on a forecast for this year, rather than real data, and by adding university and charitable income, as well as what are known as imputed rents from homes even if they are not actually rented. That was basically designed to say, “If you stand on one leg and squint a little, there you are—you’re back to 2010 levels of affluence and incomes.” Even on that statistical measure, from election date to election date—rather than the start of the calendar year, as the Chancellor tried to use—people are still worse off than they were. Of course, all that does nothing to change the burden of higher taxes and lower tax credits that have seen families worse off by more than £1,000 a year. As ever, the Chancellor may give a little with one hand, but he takes away much more with the other.

By the way, now that the Chancellor has taken the time to enter the Chamber, it would be interesting to know whether he has spotted the Prime Minister’s announcement this afternoon. I understand that the Prime Minister has indicated that he will not stand for election again after this general election. He has said tonight that he is likely to be gone in a couple of years’ time, so what will the country be voting for at the next election? I can see the poster now—“Vote Cameron, get Osborne”—and all the right-wing agenda that would go with it. A Prime Minister who did not win his first election, and had not won a second election, would be saying that he would not win a third.

Of course there were a few give-away measures in the Budget, and we welcome anything that helps those on lower and middle incomes. Why, however, does the Chancellor still stand by the biggest give-away of them all? His tax cut for the wealthiest 1%—those earning £150,000—means that someone earning £1 million each year gets an annual tax cut of £42,000. That is simply unfair and unacceptable, and that is why we will vote against those income tax plans this evening. We will vote against the Government’s Budget plans for public services and public investment, because although we must balance the books as soon as possible in the next Parliament, going so far beyond that—with cuts over the next three years that are twice as deep as those of the past three years—means extreme cuts to services on a scale not experienced for generations. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is a most discourteous exchange taking place between those on the two Front Benches while the hon. Gentleman the shadow Chief Secretary is addressing the House. Modesty forbids me from naming the errant Members, but I feel sure that they will correct their behaviour at once.

[Chris Leslie]

Perhaps we can ask Hansard for a transcript later. I would certainly be interested to read that.

When we look at the Chancellor’s plans—and those of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions—we see that he is thinking about cutting for the next three years at twice the level we have seen over the past three years. The Chancellor realised how toxic his plans were shortly after the autumn statement, when he published the trajectory that showed he would take Britain back to 1930s levels of public investment as a share of national income. In the days running up to the Budget, we were therefore told that he had had a change of heart on public spending—coincidentally, it was just weeks before an election campaign. Sure enough, the figures for 2019-20 were shuffled around in the Budget. However, in the end, he just could not fight his gut instinct, so all he did was to front-load the cuts on to the first three years of the next Parliament and hope that nobody would notice.

Unfortunately for the Chancellor, the Office for Budget Responsibility did notice. It said that his plans will mean

“a much sharper squeeze on real spending in 2016-17 and 2017-18 than anything seen over the past five years”

and

“a sharp acceleration in the pace of implied real cuts to day-to-day spending on public services”.

That will create what the OBR calls

“a rollercoaster profile for implied public services spending through the next Parliament”.

We remain with a path of public spending that is based on ideology and political game playing, rather than a Budget for our public services based on what the economy requires and what our country needs.

I ask my hon. Friends to imagine the impact these extreme plans will have, especially on the public services that the Government say are unprotected—the police, bus and rail services, the Army and our defences—and on all those who depend on tax credits to make ends meet. I encourage my hon. Friends to take a moment to look at exactly what those extreme cuts will mean. They are not just statistics in the Red Book; they will have real consequences for real people’s lives.

To take social care as an example, in the past five years, the number of vulnerable people who receive social care support has fallen by 500,000 and the number of home-delivered meals—meals on wheels—has fallen by 59%. Of course, there has also been a rise in the peremptory 15-minute visits. That is just what has happened so far, before the Government tip social care over the precipice of the rollercoaster. Just imagine what the next three years could bring. Care cuts like this are health service cuts. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) said, our health services will be placed in real jeopardy in that scenario. It says everything one needs to know about this Chancellor that the battle of Agincourt got twice as many references in the Budget speech as the NHS. When I look at the Government’s Budget, it is not so much “Henry V” that comes to mind as “The Comedy of Errors”.

This path of spending—extreme and unnecessary, going way beyond tackling the deficit—is why we will vote against the Budget resolutions tonight. This is a Budget that delivered little, but revealed much. It revealed the Conservatives’ ideological obsession with shrinking public services in preparation for a privatised society. There is no support for those struggling on low incomes and in insecure work, no credible action to tackle tax avoidance and close the tax gap, nothing to reverse their tax cut for millionaires and no help for the NHS. We have a Chancellor who is full of spin but is fooling no one, and a Chief Secretary who is enjoying his final days in office but not in power.

What we need is a Labour Government who will put the interests of the British people first; who will balance the books in a fair way; who will help small businesses with a cut in business rates, rather than simply helping the largest corporations; who will raise living standards by raising the minimum wage and expanding free child care; and who will govern for the many and not for the few, because Britain succeeds when working people succeed. That would be a better plan and a better Budget. That is why I urge my hon. Friends to reject the Budget of this failing Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Danny Alexander]

It is fair to say that the current Prime Minister also discouraged this policy. In the television leaders debates in 2010 he said it could not be done and could not be afforded. We have shown in this Parliament that we can afford it. The difficult decisions we on the Government Benches have been willing to make in other areas have meant that we have been able to deliver the largest income tax cuts for working people in a generation. That is something of which I am very proud indeed.

My right hon. and learned Friend also rightly highlighted how much progress we have made in tackling tax avoidance during the course of this Parliament. He was humble enough to admit that progress had not always been as strong during his time as Chancellor. There were many measures in the Budget to tackle tax avoidance and evasion.

We then had a contribution from the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West. It is fair to say that there were many things in the Budget that he was not very keen on. He certainly made that clear. He did not like the rollercoaster, as he described it, of the public finances. I have set out my own alternative scenario on that. He did not mention the big dipper that the public finances had been on during his time in office.

The right hon. Gentleman rightly welcomed the package of measures to support the oil and gas sector, which was a very strong feature of the Budget. The measures will ensure that the sector, which is suffering from a dramatic fall in the oil price, has some confidence in the future. He welcomed those measures, but he rightly pointed out that the oil revenues in the OBR forecast at this Budget were a little more than a 10th of those predicted by the nationalists in the recent Scottish referendum. He made the point that had Scotland voted for independence and experienced the fall in oil prices, the difficult decisions made in this Parliament—I think I quote him correctly—would have seemed like a school picnic in comparison.

The right hon. Gentleman was too modest to remind the House of the service he rendered to his country with the leadership he showed in the Better Together campaign. I hope that Members on all sides of the House express their appreciation for that. It was certainly something I experienced first hand. It was immensely important in ensuring that the people of Scotland voted the right way in the referendum. The experience of working with him on that campaign, although we may have disagreed on many other matters over the years and will no doubt continue to do so, is one I will always remember. He showed himself to be a man of the greatest statesmanship in his conduct of that campaign.

Before I respond to some of the other points, I want to respond to the jibes from the shadow Chief Secretary—[Interruption.] It certainly is not—there are another 10 minutes to go. The shadow Chancellor, the shadow chunterer, is in his place chuntering as usual. He doesn’t have many policies, but he sure does like to chunter.

The Budget, as set out in the Red Book, was agreed by Conservatives and Liberal Democrats working together in the coalition Government. There is no policy measure in the Budget which Liberal Democrat Ministers did not sign off. Are there differences in the way the two parties in the coalition would approach the task of deficit reduction in the next Parliament? Yes, of course there are. I have made clear in this House and outside that there is another way we can meet the fiscal mandate that all parties signed up to when we voted for the charter for budget responsibility in January. Opposition Front Benchers appear to have forgotten about that, but we can do it in a more responsible and stable way. For that reason, last week I published and set out an alternative fiscal scenario for the next five years—a plan to borrow less than Labour and cut less than the Conservatives, a plan to give the UK a brighter future without sacrificing financial prudence. As the independent OBR mentioned in its economic and financial outlook, this profile of public expenditure

“is driven by a medium-term fiscal assumption”,

but

“both parties have said that they would pursue different policies if they were to govern alone.”

The Budget that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor presented last week is a coalition Budget that reflects the hard work the coalition Government have carried out over the past five years to turn the country around from the mess we inherited from Labour and to set us on a path back to prosperity. I do not hesitate, therefore, to speak in favour of it.

[Chris Leslie]

This is very confusing. So the right hon. Gentleman supports the Budget, but he opposes the Government. He wants to be a Minister, but he does not want to be a Minister. Will he at least agree that the cuts for the next three years are extreme and would be damaging, and will he confirm that he does not support the depth of the cuts to our public services over the next three years?

[Danny Alexander]

It really is not that confusing. Even the shadow Chief Secretary ought to understand that two different parties in a coalition Government will have different views about the future direction of policy in this country. I would say—[Interruption.] If the hecklers would silence themselves, I would say that Labour signed up to £30 billion of deficit reduction in the first three years of the next Parliament when they voted for the charter for budget responsibility. I am sure you remember the occasion, Mr Speaker. It was an important debate in the House, and one to which the country should be paying great attention. It is fair to say that all parties in the House have different views about how to achieve that £30 billion of cuts, and I set out my view to the House on Thursday.

--- Later in debate ---

[Danny Alexander]

No, I am not giving way. I am going to make some progress. The hon. Lady was not here for the debate, so I am certainly not giving way to her.

[Chris Leslie]

rose—

[Danny Alexander]

No, I am not giving way. I am going to finish.

The income tax personal allowance will increase to £10,800 in 2016-17 and—

[Chris Leslie]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Danny Alexander]

No, I will not.

This is the most significant tax cut for working people in a generation. As a result of the increases to the personal allowance, a typical basic rate taxpayer will be £905 a year better off in 2017-18, and 27.2 million individuals will have benefited from increases to the personal allowance since 2010. As a result of these changes, over 3.7 million people—[Interruption.] Opposition Members do not like to hear about tax cuts for working people, Mr Speaker.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Leslie]

rose—

[Danny Alexander]

No, I will not give way. Opposition Members do not like to hear about tax cuts for working people because they did not deliver those cuts themselves. If they cared about cutting taxes for working people, they would be welcoming and celebrating the fact that 3.7 million working people on the lowest incomes no longer have to pay any income tax at all. That is something that Government Members would celebrate; Opposition Members should be celebrating it, too.

When a Government lose control of the public finances, it is the poorest who are hardest hit. That is why imposing fiscal discipline was such a priority for us in 2010. We created the stability necessary to deliver growth, jobs and investment. Last year, the shadow Chancellor channelled Ronald Reagan and asked, “Are you better off than you were in 2010?” On Thursday, the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies confirmed that families are set to be £900 better off in 2015 than they were in 2010.

Compared with five years ago, we have lower inequality; child poverty is down; pensioner poverty is at record lows; the gender pay gap is smaller than ever; and the number of students at university from disadvantaged backgrounds is at an all-time high. Some 1.9 million people are now in work, which is 1,000 new jobs a day, four fifths of them full time and four fifths in skilled occupations. This is a record to be proud of, and I am proud of these achievements. I am proud of the role my party has played in achieving them.

Responsible government does not mean standing on the sidelines and complaining about how long other people are taking to clean up the mess they created. Responsible government is about stepping up to the challenges and not flinching from taking the tough but necessary decisions. That is what we have done since 2010. We have created a stronger economy, we have created a fairer society, and we have delivered for the people of the United Kingdom. I commend the Budget to the House.

Question put.

amendment of the law

Chris Leslie Excerpts

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

First, I thank so many of my right hon. and hon. Friends for making important contributions to the debate, highlighting constituency concerns, offering a critique of the Chancellor’s strategy and questioning the wisdom of his short-sighted short-termism. To name only a few, that includes my hon. Friends the Members for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck), for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham), for Livingston (Graeme Morrice), for Darlington (Jenny Chapman), for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds), for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon), my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), and my hon. Friends the Members for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) and for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg). They all made the case very strongly.

The country needed a Budget to deliver a recovery built to last and a recovery that is felt by all. We needed a Budget to ensure that growth is sustained; to support a balanced approach across industrial sectors; to spur on business investment and productivity; to drive exports; and to lift growth in all the regions and nations. We needed a Budget to make sure that a recovery is shared by the whole country, not just the wealthy already at the top.

Yet what we had last Wednesday was a Budget more notable for the reforms it did not contain. There was nothing to tackle long-term youth unemployment, which has doubled since the Government came to power. There was nothing to reform the big six gas and electricity companies, who are hitting families and pensioners with ever-higher energy bills. There was nothing to bring forward real help now with child care costs that are spiralling upwards year after year. There was nothing to drive forward the infrastructure investment that we so urgently need and nothing to address the wages crisis leaving the typical working person £1,600 worse off than they were in 2010. There was not even a mention by the Chancellor of the cost of living crisis, or even a passing reference to it in the 120 pages of the Budget Red Book. Instead, it fell to the Office for Budget Responsibility to spell out the realities to the British people: you will be worse off at the coming election than you were back in 2010—and that is official.

What sort of Budget was it? It was a Budget attempting to get the Government from here to election day, rather than to entrench, extend and enhance a recovery for all. That is why we had a few small give-aways and that patronising little pat on the head for hard-working people to do more of the things they enjoy—and was it not interesting to see the Chancellor looking so authentic playing bingo earlier today? What a great offer from the Chancellor: buy 300 pints of beer and get one free. They give a little with one hand, but take away so much more with the other.

Amazingly, the Chancellor did not mention VAT at 20%, the granny tax, the cuts to child benefit and to tax credits, or the 2 million working people who have been drawn into the 40p tax band since the Government came to office. He also did not mention the very generous tax cut for millionaires, or the deal he struck with the big banks to water down the bank levy even further—a secret tax cut for the banks that we will be voting against tonight.

There is a crisis out there in the country. The Prime Minister once said:

“Helping with the cost of living. That is what matters most of all.”

Whatever happened to that promise? Britain needed a Budget for big changes, but the Chancellor was busy dealing with the small change, the new £1 coin modelled on the threepenny bit. Of course, as the right hon. Gentleman is the heir to the Osborne baronetcy, perhaps it is no surprise that he has such an emotional attachment to old money.

Back in the real world, changing GDP statistics are not yet felt by those on lower or middle incomes, who do not share the Chancellor’s rosy view. They are concerned about job insecurity, zero-hours contracts, escalating rents and bills and frozen incomes, while food banks are increasingly the last resort for those with nowhere left to turn. That is the real Britain that his short-termism is creating.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) said, young people who want to get ahead are sensing that the odds are stacked against them. They belong to “Generation rent”, ripped off by letting agencies, with the housing market out of reach because Help to Buy has not been matched with the help to build that we need. But because the Chancellor is so focused on showing off his new £1 coin, so focused on his short-term ambitions—[Interruption.] It does not matter if he changes its shape; its value is still shrinking day by day under him. He is failing to take the long-term steps we need to improve this country.

The flexibilities on annuities are welcome in principle, and we look forward to scrutinising the detail in due course. Annuities have failed too many pensioners. We also hope, however, that the Chancellor will address the need for comprehensive advice for those nearing retirement and for reform to go further by capping pension fund charges to stop rip-off fees and improve consumer trust.

Did the Chancellor make that change on annuities for a long-term reason or a short-term one? Is it pure coincidence that the reform will grab hundreds of millions in tax from pensioners years earlier than it would otherwise have come into the Exchequer? Did he really have the long term in mind, or was it a “manoeuvre”, as the IFS calls his tricks, from a Chancellor who will borrow £190 billion more than he said he would?

Although the annuity changes are welcome, it is difficult to escape the feeling that they are being used to distract from the inadequacy of the rest of the Budget. They provide a veneer of long-term reform to an otherwise short-term Budget. The Chancellor dangles the annuities issue as a device to divert attention from his inaction on the cost of living and the reforms we need to build a lasting recovery that is felt by all.

The Chancellor is absolutely desperate for people not to notice the broken promise to balance the books by next year. It turns out that the past three years of economic stagnation will leave the next Government inheriting a budget deficit of £75 billion. It is staggering that the Chancellor had the nerve to claim in his Budget statement that

“as a nation we are getting on top of our debts”.—[Official Report, 19 March 2014; Vol. 577, c. 781.]

The Chancellor’s neglect of economic growth has added a third to the national debt, which is now over £1.2 trillion. He promised to stop adding to the debt, but he has borrowed more in four years than the previous Government did in 13 years.

That is why my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition called for a cap on structural welfare reform in June last year. Yes, we need to be tough on welfare inflation, but we also have to be tough on the causes of welfare inflation, tackling low wages and rising rents and helping to get the long-term unemployed off benefits and back into work. That is the way to ensure that we get the current budget back into surplus as soon as possible.

The Chancellor should be confronting the causes of falling revenues and rising costs for taxpayers, but he has form when it comes to bending the rules to make it appear that progress is being made. In this Budget, again, there are some extremely dodgy accounting tricks used by this master of prestidigitation: treating a forecast of worsening public sector pension costs as an opportunity to spend more money; banking future tax revenues on the basis of what the OBR called “particularly uncertain” behavioural assumptions; committing to spending billions extra on the basis of cuts to services while refusing to say where the axe will fall; and inventing revenues from tackling avoidance even though the Swiss tax deal has delivered only a quarter of what he originally promised. The IFS calls these the Chancellor’s “manoeuvres” which he will keep on repeating—a few give-aways inadequately funded by unspecified funding cuts.

We are beginning to hear that the Chancellor and his outriders are on manoeuvres in other ways too. He and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury have an eye on their personal advance to the top of their parties—believe it or not. In fact, the Chief Secretary is on odds of 14:1 to take over the Liberal Democrats after the next general election. There they sit, right there: one a zealous champion of right-wing Conservatism and the other the Chancellor of the Exchequer. No wonder the public are not getting a look-in. We needed a Budget to lock in the recovery, but all we got was a Budget designed to lock out the Chancellor’s rivals for the leadership of the Conservative party.

The Government are not ensuring that we have a sustainable recovery. The reason the Chancellor is being forced to address a growing savings crisis is that, as the OBR says, growth might slow down again when consumer savings run dry—and it predicts that savings will be depleted even more quickly after the Budget measures are factored in. Exports will not contribute a thing to growth for the next five years, according to the OBR. A Conservative Government will certainly not invest in a pro-growth approach; they do not even acknowledge that productivity is a problem that has been emerging in recent years. Why are they not helping small and medium-sized businesses with a cut in business rates rather than making yet another cut in corporation tax that benefits only 2% of British businesses? Their short-term chopping and changing on renewables, on investment allowances and on the carbon price floor are all symptoms of a fickle and inconsistent Treasury governed by political impulse. We finally have some growth not because of this Chancellor, but despite this Chancellor.

Britain needed a Budget for the long term—long-term recovery, long-term stability, and long-term growth—but Britain got a Budget for the short term from a part-time Chancellor more preoccupied with his party’s recovery than with building Britain’s recovery. Britain deserves better.

[The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)]

It is a pleasure to close this excellent Budget debate. We have heard some very good speeches today. I particularly commend my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who gave strong support to the Budget. I pay tribute to his work as a Minister, not least as Minister responsible for constitutional reform when he worked so closely with the Deputy Prime Minister on those matters.

I particularly note the speech by the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), who rightly highlighted the importance of securing this country’s long-term competitiveness. I would also highlight the work we are doing on infrastructure, on skills, and on making this country more attractive for investment. In that context, I find his party’s decision to vote against the corporation tax cut utterly extraordinary. If we want this country to become more welcoming to investment, that is precisely the sort of measure we should be supporting.

The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) spoke particularly about social investment. I welcome her support for the tax relief on social investment that we confirmed in the Budget. The hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) gave an important speech about her concerns about pensions and annuities. I am sure that those issues can be addressed as the Finance Bill goes through the House. My hon. Friends the Members for Bedford (Richard Fuller) and for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) made particularly strong speeches. I commend the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) for his speech, particularly the attention he paid to the warm welcome in the Scotch whisky industry for the measures we have taken on spirits duties—just one of a number of ways in which this was a Budget for Scotland. He is right to have welcomed that.

However, we heard at the end the most extraordinary speech by the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury. I gather that his party is intending to vote against the whole Budget tonight. That is surprising—or perhaps not that surprising in the context of Labour’s changing position on annuities and pension reform. Last week’s announcements on annuities complete the most progressive and important reforms to our pension system since Lloyd George was the Liberal Minister in the Treasury. The reforms are founded on the decisions we have made and are being ably led by the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), who has responsibility for pensions. They include the creation of a single-tier pension—a firm foundation on which everyone can save—and the triple lock, which ensures finally that we will not have the kinds of derisory pension increases that we saw when Labour was in office.

People often wonder whether there will be a rabbit-out-of-the-hat moment in a Budget and I am sure the whole House will agree that our annuities announcement has been successful in rabbit production—a whole Labour Front Bench of them. They are rabbits caught in headlights. It has gone on for days. As my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry memorably said in his speech, Labour’s economic policy is like a chameleon that has fallen into a bag of Smarties. You can ponder for yourself what that means, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I think he was drawing attention to the fact that we have not had a sensible reaction from the Opposition. [Interruption.] I am not sure: I think ginger rodents play a very important role in our democracy, to answer the shadow Chancellor’s remarks.

On Wednesday the Leader of the Opposition said absolutely nothing. On Thursday the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), presumably frustrated by the continued silence of his Front Benchers, took it on himself to tell his party that it should oppose our plans on annuities and pensions. Friday saw the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) getting around almost at least to welcoming the move. To think that Labour Members used to say that we in my party wore sandals; they are surely now the flip-flop party. They now say—this is a serious point—that they will vote against the Budget as a whole and, therefore, against all of the reforms contained in it. They did not know what to say about the reforms, then they were against them, then in favour of them, then sort of in favour of them and now in just a few minutes’ time they are going to vote against them. The truth is that our great liberalisation of the pensions market has hit Labour Members like a missile. It has cracked open one of the great dividing lines between their values and our values. We on this side of the House know that the best people to trust with money are the people who earn that money in the first place. Labour Members do not seem to agree with that.

I draw the House’s attention to the following quote:

“You cannot trust people to spend their own money sensibly”.

Who said that? It was a former Labour adviser in No. 10 under the previous Government. That says it all. Having been in opposition to that Government for so long, I understand John McTernan’s concerns. After all, when the Labour party was given access to the public purse, it went on a giant spending spree. It splurged on all sorts of unsuccessful projects. It is a party that wastes money and expects someone else to clean up after it. We are the party—the Government, the coalition—that it has left with the cleaning up. [Interruption.] Yes, the Liberal Democrats are clearing up the mess that the Labour party made of this country’s economy. I think that the people of this country know not only about the mess the Labour party made of our economy, but that people who have spent their lives saving for their retirement can be trusted to make sensible, long-term choices. It is just the Labour party that cannot be trusted to do that.

This was, in the end, a Budget for freedom. It was a Budget for the freedom of pensioners to choose to use their own savings in the way that best suits them; a Budget for working people to be free to keep more of the money they earn for themselves; and a Budget to support businesses that want to invest. The only way we can deliver the rise in living standards that has been discussed by some Labour Members is by making sure that our policies are as fair as possible.

[Chris Leslie]

Now that the Chief Secretary has finally come to the question of living standards, will he do what he failed to do four times when asked on the “PM” programme on the day of the Budget and admit that living standards will be lower at the time of the next election than they were at the last election—yes or no?

[Danny Alexander]

I rather agree with the analysis that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions set out on that question. In his opening remarks—[Interruption.] The Opposition might not like it, but no matter how much the shadow chunterer makes his noises from the Front Bench, I will make the point that the recession that they helped to cause when they were in office cost every household in this country £3,000. That is the mess that they made. It is no wonder that we are having to work so hard to repair the British economy and to ensure that there are jobs for people.

[Chris Leslie]

Will the Chief Secretary give way?

[Danny Alexander]

No, I will not give way any more—sit down. I will give the hon. Gentleman the treatment that he deserves.

In the Budget, we have sought to help those at the bottom of the earnings scale by taking them out of tax altogether. I am incredibly proud, as a Liberal Democrat, to stand at this Dispatch Box and say that, come next April, the rise in the personal allowance will mean that typical basic rate taxpayers will be £800 a year better off than they would have been under the previous Government’s plans.

[Chris Leslie]

Will the Chief Secretary give way?

[Danny Alexander]

No; I am going to make some progress.

Under-occupancy Penalty (Nottingham)

Chris Leslie Excerpts

Monday 18th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Lilian Greenwood]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I shall come to that point.

In Nottingham, 6,103 people face the bedroom tax in two weeks’ time. The key website is Homelink, which advertises properties for the arm’s length management organisation, Nottingham City Homes, and most of the local housing associations. This week, 21 one-bedroom properties and 14 two-bedroom properties are available. So even if they were all allocated to households that are currently under-occupying, that would help only 35 households—fewer than 1% of those affected. That is before one considers the 2,269 families in Nottingham waiting for a two-bedroom property, or the 7,333 individuals or couples waiting for a one-bedroom property.

In my constituency, 1,423 households are affected by the bedroom tax. In the whole of the last 12 months only 175 of Nottingham City Homes’ one or two-bedroom properties became available to let in Nottingham South, and on average people had waited 78 weeks on the list. Worse still, evidence from the local homelessness charity, Framework, reveals particular problems for tenants who are in arrears. They have been told that even if they have repayment plans in place, they cannot be considered for a move. As Jon Leighton, who helps co-ordinate the crisis team for Framework, says:

“Essentially they are stuck. Pay the additional charge or get into more arrears. And given this is the choice, the likely outcome is eviction proceedings.”

The Minister may argue that social tenants should move into the private sector. How will that cut the housing benefit bill when, according to figures produced by the National Housing Federation, the average social rent for a two-bedroom property in Nottingham is £64.02, but the average private rent for a one-bedroom property, into which a household occupying a two-bedroom social home might be expected to downsize, is £88.85? There is also a question about whether landlords in the private sector will be willing to take on tenants on housing benefit, given their significant concerns about the risks posed by the introduction of direct payments under universal credit.

The truth is that most people cannot avoid paying the bedroom tax, and the Government know it. Their 2012 impact assessment is clear:

“Estimates of Housing Benefit savings are based on the current profile of tenants in the social rented sector, with little tenant mobility assumed. If a significant number of tenants wished to move, this would reduce direct savings and place extra demands on social landlords”.

It is clear that the burden of cutting public spending on housing benefit relies specifically on the inability of tenants to move; balancing the books on the backs of poor and vulnerable people.

Of course, the Minister might claim that this is not about saving money, but about making better use of our social housing stock. Action to tackle overcrowding is important, which is why the Labour Government published good practice guidance on managing under-occupation and, in 2007, allocated funding to 38 pathfinder areas to devise solutions to address overcrowding and focus on under-occupation.

Last year Nottingham city council received a grant of £75,000 to help tackle overcrowding and under-occupation through its “Right Size” project, a modest amount that it used to good effect. It worked with people to look at their options, provided intensive support to help them overcome the hurdles to moving home and effectively held tenants’ hands through the process, in some cases covering removal costs. The project was effective, and between 1 April 2012 and 28 April 2013, 81 properties were freed up for families. However, last Friday, after a prolonged period of uncertainty, the council finally received an e-mail from the Department for Communities and Local Government confirming that:

“Ministers have now decided not to make any further special grants to councils specifically to tackle under-occupation”

Now we know that this is not about addressing under-occupation or overcrowding; it is about cutting public spending, taking money from the very households that are least able to bear the burden. It is not just unfair; it is immoral.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend is making her case exceptionally well. In my constituency, which neighbours hers, the cases that really pull at the heart strings bring the issue most to life, particularly when they involve a disabled person in the household. The majority of cases seem to be like that. I think of the young man who had serious problems with schizophrenia. He was just getting into independent living and needed an extra bedroom so that his father could occasionally stay overnight in order to reassure him when things got particularly difficult. Now, because of the bedroom tax, his whole quest for independent living has been thwarted, and he will have to move back in with his parents. It is the individual cases that illustrate just how heartless and callous the policy is.

[Lilian Greenwood]

My hon. Friend is exactly right. I wonder how Government Members sleep at night after what they have done.

The Minister might claim that the Government are protecting the most vulnerable, such as the individual my hon. Friend has just mentioned. Ministers have been saying that for months. It was only continued pressure from the Opposition Benches that forced them to concede that the Prime Minister’s assurances about protection for disabled children, foster parents and members of the armed forces were completely hollow and that exemptions needed to be put in place.

Unfortunately, to suggest that discretionary housing payment will provide the answer is disingenuous. Nationally, the DHP allocated for 2014-15 makes up less than 6% of the £2.2 billion in planned housing benefit cuts for the same year, and the Government have failed to provide any assurances on the level of DHP funding as part of the next spending review. The National Audit Office is critical of how the level of DHP funding has been determined, stating that

“it is not clear how the overall level of funding has been determined or whether it is likely to be sufficient to tackle the effects of reforms.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Webb]

All I can say to the hon. Lady is that there are more than 1 million people on housing benefit in the private rented sector. There is not a little island called Nottingham where those people do not exist. Across the United Kingdom, private sector landlords are renting to people on housing benefit.

The hon. Lady mentioned Nottingham City Homes. I welcome some of the measures that it is taking to assist people who are affected by this measure. For example, it has produced a lodger guide so that any tenant who wishes to take in a lodger has information about how to do so. That will not be the answer for everyone, but it will be the answer for some. It will mean that there is better use of the scarce resource that is the empty or unused bedroom in social housing.

The hon. Lady mentioned HomeSwapper, a mutual exchange website that Nottingham City Homes is encouraging people to refer to. That is very welcome because it tries to make better use of the valuable social housing that we have. Nottingham City Homes ran what I think it called a speed-dating event to help match people who want to move to smaller properties with those who want to move to larger homes. It is true that this measure saves money, but it also leads us to make better use of the very underutilised resource of our social housing stock. As these initiatives demonstrate, there are some people living in overcrowded accommodation, whose voice was silent in the hon. Lady’s speech, and some people who are living in accommodation with spare rooms.

There is an issue with what one might loosely call “hard cases”. Those include people for whom a spare bedroom is not spare, but is very important. The hon. Lady dismissed in a very new Labour sort of way the £700,000 that is being given to Nottingham next year in discretionary housing payments, as if it is a drop in the ocean or a trivial sum of money. That money is being given to local authorities so that they can assist people on a case-by-case basis who approach them and say that there is a particular reason why the measure would be unfair or adverse in their case.

[Chris Leslie]

Will the Minister give way?

[Steve Webb]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I try to respond to the hon. Lady.

It is said that the money will help only a relatively small proportion of people. That is entirely true because it is for exceptional cases. The basic principle is that if people have spare bedrooms, they should either put somebody in them or pay for them, perhaps by earning more if they are able to.

It is important to say that the price we are asking for a spare bedroom is just under £2 a day in Nottingham. That is what we are asking private renters on a low income to contribute anyway.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Webb]

Well, other local authorities have avoided doing that. It is noticeable that many Labour-led local authorities have decided to pass the cost on to their tenants. For example, my local authority of South Gloucestershire has not passed on the cut to tenants, so they will receive full council tax benefit. Nottingham city council, however, has decided to expect its low-income tenants to make a contribution. The hon. Lady said that Governments have to make choices, but so do local authorities. Nottingham council has decided to charge low-income working age households a contribution towards their council tax. That was its decision.

Looking forward to the changes we have made, foster families were mentioned and the Government have been clear throughout that we want to protect such families. Our original strategy was to put the £5 million that we think it will cost to protect those families into local government budgets through discretionary payments, but, partly because of the alarmist scaremongering about foster families, we decided it was far better to avoid any anxiety on that point and simply to entitle foster families to an extra bedroom at the same cost. We have not had to find extra money for that measure because it was there already. We always said that we would protect those families, and we will. However, we will do so directly because when we relied on discretionary payments, Opposition Members claimed that we were not going to support foster families, which caused concern among those families. Giving foster families a right to a room seemed a more direct way of providing that support. Likewise, we have made it clear, as the Prime Minister did—

[Chris Leslie]

Will the Minister give way?

[Steve Webb]

No. I only have a couple of minutes left. I have made my point clear. As the Prime Minister made clear from the Dispatch Box a couple of weeks ago, families with disabled children who cannot share a room will have the right to an extra room if they approach their local authority and make their case. Provided that case is accepted, they will have a right to a room. There are a number of elements where we have either given a right to a room, and the hon. Gentleman for, I think, Shipley—

[Chris Leslie]

No.

[Steve Webb]

No. I apologise. I am sorry, I cannot remember the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, but he cited a case where a carer had to come in and use a spare bedroom. To be clear, the rules allow for a non-resident carer who has to stay overnight to have a room. Obviously, I do not know the full details of that individual case, but a spare bedroom is allowed for a non-resident carer.

[Chris Leslie]

I am afraid that the carer rules do not capture that particular case, but I wanted to ask the Minister a particular question about the bedroom tax—sorry, the spare room subsidy. I know the name is important, much like the community charge which some people did not want to call the poll tax. Can the Minister provide a figure for the number of households affected by the bedroom tax that include a disabled person?

[Steve Webb]

The hon. Gentleman glossed over his constituent’s case, but to be clear for the record, a spare bedroom is allowed for a non-resident overnight carer and it is important that he does not alarm people about the issue. In our impact assessment we published the number of disabled people affected by the change, and, as he knows perfectly well, around one in three—broadly speaking—of those affected by the measure is receiving the disability living allowance. Time is running out, but simply to say—

State Pension Reform

Chris Leslie Excerpts

Monday 14th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

In answer to my hon. Friend’s first question, the NHS as an employer already pays the reduced rate of national insurance from its own resources; it will have an increased rate of national insurance. Obviously the Exchequer will have an increased revenue. It will be a matter for the Chancellor of the day to decide what to do with that increased revenue, but the NHS as an employer will pay more national insurance—that is a fact.

In answer to my hon. Friend’s question about small firms in her constituency, very few small firms run contracted-out defined-benefit pensions, so the only people paying increased national insurance will be those who are contracted out who run these special final salary schemes. We have allowed those schemes to adjust their rules to offset the cost if that is how they choose to proceed, but most small firms will not be affected.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

Crucial to these proposals is the notion that parents who take time off work to bring up children—stay-at-home mums—will register for national insurance pension credit in order to get their cumulative 35-year tally of contributions. However, surely the Government are not saying that the only way to get these credits is to apply for child benefit, because from 7 January not everybody has been eligible for child benefit payments. That would be ridiculously complex and confusing, would it not?

[Steve Webb]

There are two groups of people. First, those who are currently receiving child benefit that will cease because of the changes for people with higher-earning spouses will continue to get credits under this system—they are in the child benefit system with a zero award. For people who have their first child under the new regime, we already put information in what is called the bounty pack—which new mothers get—to encourage them to claim child benefit, not least because even if their spouse is a high earner at the moment, that might not always be so, so they should always claim child benefit anyway, to ensure they get their credits.

Universal Credit

Chris Leslie Excerpts

Wednesday 9th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I say what a lucky honour it is to have the first Adjournment debate of the new Session?

In October 2013, we will see one of the biggest changes to the welfare benefits system since the second world war with the introduction of the new universal credit. The Welfare Reform Act 2012 has gone through, and there was a lot of focus on the fairness and unfairness of various benefit changes, but there was not much focus on the administrative changes involved in the move to universal credit—the changes to the process of applying for benefits and being assessed for them. We should all welcome to some extent the rationalisation of a series of disparate benefits that have grown up over the decade. The administrative components of universal credit will include the tax credit system, housing benefit, income support, income-based jobseeker’s allowance, employment and support allowance and so on.

Tonight, we are not debating the principle of universal credit, but considering the roll-out of the administration for the new arrangement and, of course, the massive consequences for our constituents. If it goes well—hopefully, it will—they may not notice anything untoward, but there are massive risks if the administrative transition is not handled competently and carefully. That is essentially the purpose of my set of questions for the Under-Secretary in the short time available today. I sent a list of the issues that I broadly wanted to raise to her private office earlier today because some of the questions are technical. I hope that we can get a little more on the record because there has not been that much opportunity to debate those issues so far, and we are talking about a change that will affect a million people in the first six months of the roll-out of universal credit from October 2013.

One of the most interesting facets of universal credit is the Government’s decision that it should be digital by default: in other words, they are working on the assumption that the vast majority of claimants will access their claims online. I think that the Government’s assessment is that 80% of those claims will be made online. My first question therefore is whether the Under-Secretary can reaffirm that that figure still represents the Government’s assumption. Could she perhaps also give us a logical explanation of how that beautifully neat and round figure of 80% was reached?

Many people who apply for universal credit are not exactly frequent internet users: 15% of council tenants have no access to the internet; one in six adults generally have never used it—that figure is as high as one in four in Northern Ireland, and one in five in the north-east and in Wales—and 4 million disabled people have never used it. Consumer Focus research shows that 69% of people want the ability to have face-to-face transactions for benefit claims at post offices and so on. I therefore want to get a sense from the Under-Secretary of her contingency plan if the 80% target is missed. How will we move towards such a major shift in the way in which people apply for their benefits? We are considering the livelihoods of many people.

Universal credit will be a household, not an individual benefit. It will be assessed on a whole household, so a vast amount of supporting documentation will have to be processed when individuals change their entitlements. Again, how can that supporting documentation be assessed online? How will it be assessed centrally, given that we will move away from the localisation of many applications? That online assumption must be tested significantly.

As a corollary, the next issue is the extent to which the Government commit resources for the minority, who they accept will struggle with applying online. What resources will be available for face-to-face advice and support for claimants who cannot go down the digital route? I understand that the Department is planning some sort of 0845 hotline numbers, but they are expensive, especially for people with mobile phones. However, I am particularly interested in knowing how much money has been put aside for the face-to-face service.

A recent survey of the many district councils in England and Wales suggests that they believe that 50% of people coming through their doors and applying, for example, for housing benefit, need to do that face to face. Obviously, that is at odds with the Government assessment of presumably only 20% needing some sort of support other than the online arrangement. Investing so much in the online arrangement is clearly a dangerous ambition. I understand the logic of wanting greater take-up of digital applications, but I am anxious that the target is so high, and I want to get a sense of the scenario planning and the arrangements that the Government have considered if it is simply not deliverable.

We should cast our minds back to the difficulties with online tax credit arrangements. There was significant fraud, which had to be addressed and meant the arrangements had to be changed. Will the Minister say on the record that she is happy with the anti-fraud measures and the robustness and security of the new online universal credit system? Clearly, it would be a tragedy if so many people were directed to an online system that had to be scaled back at the last minute because individuals found a way of fraudulently fleecing it because it was not secure or robust.

Will the Minister give an assurance—her noble Friend Lord Freud was unable to do so during the passage of the Welfare Reform Act 2012—that the Government’s intention to move to a monthly payment arrangement will have a degree of flexibility? In theory, it is desirable for everybody to plan their budgets and household expenditure on a monthly basis, to mimic in-work salary arrangements, but the trouble is that it is not the experience to date of many people. Many of my constituents in Nottingham, who have suffered a great deal of deprivation or who are not on significant amounts of money take the parcels of money that come in housing benefit or other benefits and hypothecate them for rent, bills or other things. We are asking a great deal of people, sometimes later on in their lives, to change their habits and take payments at the beginning of the month and ensure that they budget so that their rent is fully paid for the rest of the period and beyond.

The danger that people will accumulate increasing arrears to pay for the roof over their head worries me significantly, never mind local authorities, which already say that they have concerns about the collection of rent payments. Currently, housing benefit can be paid directly to the landlord, the local authority or the housing association, but that is ending, so there is a great deal of anxiety about the continuity of housing entitlement.

As I have said, 15% of council tenants do not have access to the internet. In fact, 15% have no access to a bank account and a further 15% have only a basic post office account with limited functionality. Therefore, nearly a third of social tenants might not have mainstream banking capabilities available to them, yet we expect them to move in fairly short order to that monthly budgeting arrangement. Hundreds of thousands of people up and down the country, particularly those who do not have bank accounts, are massively mistrustful of the banking system—they are fearful of the overdraft charges that can hit them if they are unable to plan or manage their cash flow over that monthly period.

It is with those points in mind that I ask the Minister this: is there any flexibility in the roll-out of universal credit to allow weekly or fortnightly payments for those who absolutely need them, or is she absolutely firmly sticking to monthly payments for everybody? That is a crucial question and I would be grateful if the Minister addressed it.

It would also help if the Minister could give us a better sense of the dates for transition to the central system as we move away from local authority administration. There are currently 380 localised IT systems in local authorities up and down the country, largely to deal with housing benefit. They will be phased out as we move towards a central system, with one IT system at the Department for Work and Pensions and one at Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. What resources have been available for the transition for councils that have a residual responsibility for some activities over the period—it will be 2017 before full roll-out?

We are starting the process of passing over responsibility to the DWP in October 2013, but some councils will process housing benefit until April 2014, and full migration will not happen until 2017. How will councils be able to do this? It will remain a significant burden for local government, and local council tax payers need to know whether Ministers will meet those costs. It is not necessarily as big an issue in my area as Nottingham city council is a unitary metropolitan authority that has several different functions, but for some district councils housing benefit is 25% of their turnover, so it is a somewhat mission-critical activity. They need to know to what extent they will still be in the business of such administration. What really is the commitment of the Government to a local roll-out of universal credit? Will it still be a local service or will they shift in short order to that central arrangement?

As I read through the documentation, several secondary issues arose. What about pensioners? Many are still reliant on housing benefit, but universal credit is an in-work benefit, so who will be responsible for the administration of housing benefit to pensioners? That is a specific question and I would be grateful for the Minister’s clarification. Obviously, if local authorities are no longer involved in the administration of housing benefit, how will pensioners continue to receive it?

There will be two vast centralised computer systems, and the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit Office are already voicing anxieties about these arrangements. The DWP is moving to the “Agile” methodology, and Computer Weekly had a report recently in which it said that a leaked report from the Cabinet Office major projects authority suggested that the

“Agile methodology remains unproven at this scale”.

An amber risk rating was attached. Is that the case? What is the Government’s assessment of the risks of the change to this system by the DWP? The HMRC computer system will take a real-time approach to the PAYE process, but again reports suggest that the time scale has slipped beyond the April 2013 target. Can the Minister say whether that is true?

If we are to contract out much of this activity, will it be sent offshore? Will the work under these new arrangements be done in the UK, or will much of the IT or contact centre work be done in India or other countries? That would be another helpful clarification.

Another important issue has to be the many thousands of staff who currently work on housing benefit in local authorities up and down the country. Unison and other representatives of the work force have also asked about this. I gather that the Government have decided that TUPE will not apply to those who work in housing benefit administration in local authorities. So there will be a massive redundancy programme in local authorities and no take-up of those staff in the new, centralised arrangements. If that is the case, how will the Government respond to the massive redundancy costs involved? Will the Government compensate local authorities for those costs? Can the Minister say how much that will cost and how many staff will be affected? A lump of money was set aside at the beginning of the spending review period for the transition to universal credit. Have the assumptions behind that sum stayed the same or have they changed?

As the Minister will know, the Opposition have spotted that she and many of her colleagues are under the shadow of the omnishambles and that the Government’s record on competence has already been questioned. When it comes to universal credit, their reputation for competence is definitely on the line, and it has to be proven that they can fulfil their promises. This is a major risk not only to the Government’s reputation but to all our constituents, especially the most needy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Leslie]

I am sorry to intervene, as I know we are getting short of time. The analysis of the support needs of an individual, either face to face at the first point of application or subsequently in recognition of exceptions such as weekly payments or direct payments for landlords, is a key point. How will it be done? Will it be a local service? Is it assumed that predominantly local authorities will pick up those responsibilities? I want to gain a sense of who will be dealing with these things, as the Department for Work and Pensions in Whitehall will not be doing the face-to-face work.

[Maria Miller]

I think the hon. Gentleman is right, and in the pilots we shall pick up some of those issues, particularly the sorts of support that local authorities could provide. Jobcentre Plus will also be involved from the launch of universal credit as an on-site, readily available resource. The hon. Gentleman is right that we have to make sure that the appropriate support is there for the people who might need it, and we want to ensure that such systems are available so that universal credit becomes the success we know it will be.

The hon. Gentleman spoke of the importance of understanding the phased migration fully. We recognise that the move from one welfare system to another needs to be managed carefully, so that no one is left without the support that they need. The transition from the old benefit system to universal credit will therefore take place in three phases over four years, ending in 2017 when between 12 million and 13 million benefit and tax credit claims will become 8 million universal credit claims.

In the first phase, beginning in October 2013, all new claims to the current benefits and credits will be phased out by April 2014, with new claims to housing benefits and tax credits being the last to end in that month. Natural migrations to universal credit as a result of a significant change of circumstances will also be taken from October 2013.

In the second phase, which will begin in April 2014, existing claimants whose circumstances have not changed will start to be transferred to universal credit through managed change. It is expected that, as most of the households whose members are actively seeking work will have been moved through the new claims or natural changes route by April 2014, the households involved in that phase will generally be those with people in part-time work and those that are economically inactive. Priority will be given to households the nature of whose work makes them most likely to benefit from universal credit.

In the third and final phase, from the end of 2015 until the end of 2017, the remaining households will be moved into the new system. Local circumstances, such as staffing turnover, contractual obligations and demography, will be taken into account. The households will be moved on to universal credit in good time before housing benefit loads become too small to be viable. Within those parameters, the focus on work and poverty will be retained. That should allow local authorities to plan with more certainty over the medium term.

The hon. Gentleman rightly sought clarification of the important issue of housing benefit for pensioners. Following the abolition of housing benefit, help with rent and child costs will be provided through pension credit, and will broadly follow the existing rules.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned a number of information technology issues. I am not sure that I can cover all of them today, but I can assure him categorically that there will be no offshore outsourcing of the administration of universal credit, that the Department will send no existing British jobs overseas, and that no personal data are held or can be accessed outside the United Kingdom. Many sub-contractors started using overseas staff under the last Government. We are considering how jobs that used to be sent offshore could be moved back to the UK in the future. I hope that the hon. Gentleman would welcome such a move.

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman raised the issue of real-time information, but I shall bring him up to date in case he is interested. Real-time information is being introduced in HMRC to improve the operation of the pay-as-you-earn system, which will make it easier for employers and HMRC to share information. Under universal credit, entitlement for people who pay tax on their earnings through PAYE will correspond directly with earnings information received through HMRC’s automatic real-time information PAYE data transfer.

HMRC began pilot-testing RTI in April, and has already introduced 10 employer schemes representing a range of sizes with the aim of ironing out any wrinkles. I understand that the initial pilot stage has gone well, and that a further 310 employers joined the pilot yesterday. We are working closely with HMRC to ensure that systems are in place for the introduction of universal credit.

The hon. Gentleman rightly mentioned the important role of local authorities. They have been, and will continue to be, integral to the development of universal credit. We have undertaken extensive work with authorities to ensure that they help us to develop universal credit, and to tap into their expertise. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the local authorities associations of England, Scotland and Wales for their constructive engagement with us, especially those authorities that have already committed time and resources to helping to make universal credit a success.

On 21 March the permanent secretaries of my Department and the Department for Communities and Local Government wrote to chief executives informing them that local authorities will be expected to provide face-to-face support for certain universal credit claimants who will need more intensive help to access the new benefit.

The hon. Gentleman raised the important issue of staff. Local authorities will want to ensure that they deal with that issue correctly. When universal credit comes into force in October 2013, local authorities will have an important role to play, and that role will begin to change, too, so they will go through a period of transition. They will need to make sure they continue to work with us through this process. The Local Government Association and the DWP recently issued a joint prospectus calling on local authorities to work on the pilots I have mentioned. We recognise that costs will be associated with that process and the wind-down of housing benefit, and we will discuss that with DCLG and the local authorities in due course.

[Chris Leslie]

The Minister says that there will be a negotiation and that she will discuss this matter with local authorities, but she has to accept that central Government have decided to introduce the universal credit, and that a number of housing benefit and local authority staff will be made redundant. In a sense, the Government are forcing local authorities to make their staff redundant. The Minister has to accept that they must be compensated by central Government for that.

[Maria Miller]

The hon. Gentleman has made a number of assumptions. As I have outlined, the introduction of universal credit will take place over a number of years. Local authorities already know it is coming, so it would be prudent of them to be planning for the changes and to make sure that they cause as little disruption as possible to their staff. Local authorities will have an important role to play in the future, whether in respect of their staff or of minimising any costs associated with the change. I urge the hon. Gentleman not to make assumptions as to how local authorities will deal with this process. I think most of them will want to plan the transfer sensibly and avoid any unnecessary costs.

I hope I have covered the majority of the points the hon. Gentleman raised. This debate has provided us with a tremendous opportunity to discuss an important part of the Government’s reform agenda, which is based on making sure that work pays, and that we have a strong and robust benefit system that supports families in the right way in order to make sure they can lift themselves out of poverty and that people, both disabled and non-disabled, have the opportunity to go to work. These reforms are a central plank of Government policy.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Leslie Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

The process of long-term saving through auto-enrolment in workplace pensions is imminent, but there has been a big growth in workplace coverage of occupational workplace individual savings accounts, which is an encouraging development. We are looking to see what more we can do to encourage that trend.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

Many who use credit unions also need help to access credit advice. What is the Minister doing to help those who will lose out when he scraps the £27 million financial inclusion fund from next March?

[Steve Webb]

One of the things we are looking at as part of our feasibility study on the future of credit unions is their crucial role in supporting people who need financial advice and assistance. That work will report back to the Department next month.

Welfare Reform Bill

Chris Leslie Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Timms]

My hon. Friend makes an important point and is absolutely right. People are worried about what the Government’s proposed changes will do to the child care market as a whole. It could make some providers uneconomical. If a large number of people currently using child care for more than 16 hours a week are forced, as a result of these changes, to give up their jobs and to withdraw from their child care places, it would put a huge dampener on, and cloud over, the whole child care market in the way she is right to fear. We feel strongly about this matter—the Government simply have not come up with a policy—so I will seek, if I can, to divide the House on new clause 2.

The Government’s failure to produce a policy on child care before the Bill leaves the House is a particularly abject failure. Ministers have not been able to turn their claims into policies. However, although child care might be the most spectacular and significant hole in the Government’s policy, it certainly is not the only one. In this group of amendments, therefore, we have tabled two further new clauses to fill the policy holes on passported benefits, such as free school meals and free prescriptions.

At the moment, people on out-of-work benefits are passported to those additional benefits, but the out-of-work benefits will be abolished, so who will be entitled to free school meals in future? Again, that is not an obscure, but a basic question and the Government have again failed to give us an answer.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

My right hon. Friend is right to point out the importance of free school meals for many of our constituents whose children are sometimes in desperate need of the basic nutrition that they receive in schools. For the Government to have got to this stage in the Bill’s passage with no clarity about what triggers free school meals entitlement is confusing. Will they introduce a new means test? I am very glad that he has raised the matter.

[Stephen Timms]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right about the centrality of free school meals entitlement in the system. The Government have simply failed to work out who, under their proposals, will be entitled to free school meals. It is not that I am disagreeing with the Government’s policy: the problem is that they have no policy. We have no idea whom they believe should be entitled to free school meals. As far as we can tell, they have not got a clue, either.

As my hon. Friend points out, free school meals are an important part of the system. They can be worth more than £350 a year to a family with one child in a primary school and easily more than £1,000 a year to a family with three or more children at school. Clearly, that makes an enormous difference.

Families currently receive free school meals until they work for more than 16 hours, at which point they receive working tax credit so that they are not worse off as they move into additional hours of work. The universal credit White Paper suggested that the Government intend to remove entitlement to free school meals at a fixed income threshold. That may partially answer my hon. Friend’s question. However, if they do that, it creates precisely the sort of cliff edge that we were told the Bill would eradicate. I presume that that difficulty has prevented the Government from setting out their policy and is the reason for the Bill’s silence on the matter and the absence of notes on the regulations to explain the Government’s policy.

If a lone parent with three children lost entitlement to free school meals at some level of earnings—say, £150 a week or more—their net household income would fall unless they earned more than £4,000 extra a year. If the new system works like that, it will be a disaster. It is exactly the sort of disincentive that we have been told all along that universal credit is supposed to remove. If the Government introduced such a policy, universal credit would make the problem of work disincentives far worse than it is in the current system.

Our proposal in new clause 3 is that the value of free school meals should be paid through universal credit and then tapered away gradually as household income rises. I recognise that there is concern among many who follow these matters closely that that could mean that the cash is not used for school meals but other expenses. Given the pressure on household budgets, one can well understand how that might happen. I therefore suggest that the solution is for the cash to be paid on to an electronic card, which could be used only to purchase school meals. An arbitrary cut-off in income, whereby all support for free school meals was withdrawn, would be damaging.

Youth Unemployment

Chris Leslie Excerpts

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Willott]

I will not give way. Everyone will have the chance to speak later if they wish.

As has been mentioned, unemployment among young people has gradually increased since 2002, and that was during the good times, so clearly in the bad times it will not be easy to get people back into work. It is now even harder for the new Government to get them into work, as they have already been out of work for longer, and we know that the longer people have been out of work and the further they are from the jobs market, the more effort, money and time it takes to get them back into work. However, the problem is that the future jobs fund was not working. It was created to ease youth unemployment and make the figures look better; it was not established to create long-term sustainable jobs. Opposition Members have mentioned that many times, but it is not that public sector jobs are not real jobs—of course they are—but rather, that the jobs created for the future jobs fund were not real jobs. They were short-term, six-month placements created for the purpose of the fund; they were not jobs that were sustainable in the long run. That has been borne out by the initial information on what people have done after being placed by the future jobs fund. About 50% of people were back on working-age benefits after seven months—one month after finishing their placement. Of those in a comparable group who found work through other programmes or found work for themselves, only 35% were back on jobseeker’s allowance after seven months. Clearly, the future jobs fund has not been working. It is performing less well than the other programmes that the previous Government put in place.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Jenny Willott]

No; I want to ensure that there is time for as many people as possible to speak.

The future jobs fund is not cost-effective. It costs a lot, and that money could be better spent. In theory, it was aimed at those who were furthest from the jobs market, but it seems that a large number of those people in placements were graduates. For example, about 20% of the people taken on by Birmingham city council had at least one degree.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Leslie]

In the city of Nottingham at this time last year, youth unemployment fell for five months continuously, but this year it has been rising. The hon. Gentleman talks about growth and how central it is, but does not he have some doubts that his Government are not doing quite enough on the growth strategy? Could he elaborate on that?

[Damian Hinds]

I do not have such doubts. I cannot comment in detail on Nottingham’s figures over the past few years, but as we have been examining in this debate, the problem of youth unemployment has not started in the past few months: it has been with us for a long time and we have a structural issue.

I was talking about the buoyancy that is needed in the private sector. That starts with investment because when there is investment, businesses grow and take on workers, including young workers. To encourage investment, we need to keep interest rates low. To keep interest rates low, we need a Government who take the nation’s finances seriously. We also need to ensure that lending is happening, and I am pleased that the Government are taking a very robust approach with the banks on that. Something that we need to work on more, but which will take some time, is ensuring that British firms are not bogged down in regulation, dead-weight administration and an enormously complicated tax system.

As well as a buoyant private sector, we need to make sure that we have the right skills to take advantage of the opportunities in the market, both generally and targeted at specific sectors. When we talk about productivity, we tend to focus on manufacturing, but the service sector now accounts for two thirds of the private sector and for much of the productivity gap that we have in relation to other leading nations. Services will continue to be important in future and we need to build up the skills base of our young people—not just their craft skills but their interpersonal and communication skills.

It is also right to have a targeted approach—a strategy for Great Britain plc. Our record on picking winners is not unblemished, but we do need a strategy. We will never again make T-shirts cheaper than China, but there are sectors in which we can excel. The trick is to find sectors in which there is the coincidence of a high-value, attractive growth market and something that Britain is uniquely well-placed to take advantage of, such as advanced manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, the creative industries, financial services, higher education and tourism.

Let me say a word on tourism, because my background is in the hospitality, leisure and tourism sector. [Hon. Members: “Ah!”] I do not know why people are saying “Ah.” That market is in long-term growth and remains a great export opportunity for this country. We are well-placed to take advantage of that market because of our great heritage, our vibrant cities and our beautiful countryside. In that regard, I must say, on a local level, that I am delighted that the South Downs national park will be opening its doors in a few weeks’ time.

When it comes to tourism at Great Britain plc, the marketing department is very good but I am afraid that the human resources department still needs some work.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Leslie Excerpts

Monday 10th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I can absolutely give my hon. Friend that assurance. At the moment, we are considering the next phase of the European social fund contracting. I am absolutely clear—indeed, the objectives of the scheme make it clear—that it must sit alongside the Work programme as part of a drive to help some of those who are furthest from the workplace to make the move back into work and to lift them out of poverty. That will remain a priority for us.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is not the Work programme undermined from the outset by the cuts that the Minister is making to the child care component of the working tax credit, which will hit families in my constituency to the tune of some £500 a year? Why is he instituting such a disincentive to work?

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman has to remember the financial mess his Government left behind. If we do not sort out the deficit and create a stable economic environment in this country, there will not be secure jobs in the future. That is and will remain our No. 1 priority.

Work and Pensions (CSR)

Chris Leslie Excerpts

Thursday 4th November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Kate Green]

No, I will not. I also want to highlight the fact that when we look at which households will particularly feel the brunt of those changes, we see that women will bear much of the pain. Women are hit twice as hard as men as a result of the reduction in income that will result from those changes.

Women receive 70% of tax credits, 60% of housing benefit and 94% of child benefit—perhaps unsurprisingly, because that payment is particularly well targeted at mothers—and 65% will be affected by the changes in the rules for savings credit as part of pension credit.

The disabled are suffering several reductions to their benefits: the removal of higher rate disability living allowance for those in residential care; the changes to eligibility for employment and support allowance, which my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Miss Begg) highlighted earlier; the impact of the work capability assessment, which seems to be proving harsher than was acknowledged earlier and harsher than the previous or present Governments might have expected; and the loss of contributory ESA after a year.

Families with children in every income decile are being hit hard by the changes—harder than households without kids. I am concerned about the differential impact of the changes on different kinds of household structures, and I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on that.

Another area that I would like to open up for debate and would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on is how the measures will work against the Government’s absolutely correct wish to incentivise people to move into increased hours of paid work. The first prerequisite of being able to look for work is a stable income. It is hard for people to motivate themselves to go out and look for a job if they are struggling to hold things together day to day, and worrying about creditors banging on the door, or whether they can afford to pay the bills, keep healthy food in the fridge, keep the house in a decent state of repair and keep their clothes clean and laundered. With all those basic needs proving a barrier, it is difficult to think about going out to look for work.

The second thing that is crucial for people looking for paid employment—we hear this again and again from homeless charities—is a stable address. Many of us are concerned that the impact of the housing benefit changes will be to force people to move, perhaps more than once or twice, as the changes are introduced in waves. In some cases, lack of a stable address is likely to prove a barrier to moving into paid work. Clearly, a third important prerequisite for parents being able to move into paid work is having child care in place.

Changes to housing benefit will not only disrupt the stability of a family’s accommodation but may move them further from areas where jobs can actually be found, and from the support networks on which they rely. I am concerned that reducing the element of working tax credit support that is available to help meet child care costs will make it more difficult for parents to afford those costs.

A number of the measures that the Government have already announced will actually worsen marginal deduction rates. The cuts to working tax credit will worsen the return that people get from paid employment, and the loss of free school meals for some families who were expecting to receive them from this September, and the increases in VAT and travel costs, will make the decision to return to work much more economically unattractive than the Government might wish. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on that.

Another thing I would like to consider is the support the Government will put in place to enable people to move into paid work. We look forward to receiving details about the single Work programme, which I believe Members across the House are keen to welcome. Labour Members in particular see many elements of the single Work programme, in so far as we know about it, drawing on the new deal and the recent flexible new deal. In fact, I have been struggling to identify the philosophical differences between the single Work programme and the flexible new deal. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on that.

There is potential for more risk being put on providers, who will be required to perform over the longer term. That may make it more difficult for some smaller providers and, in particular, voluntary sector providers to join in with provision of the single Work programme. I know that Ministers are concerned about that, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments on it.

There is perhaps even more alliance than we saw with the flexible new deal on the so-called black box approach. My worry about such an approach is whether the most vulnerable will transparently receive appropriate support and be properly advocated for in a system where there are conditions, requirements and obligations on them. Who will negotiate for them if the requirements that are imposed are unreasonably onerous? The black box approach has some merits, obviously, in that it offers flexibility to good providers, but how we will ensure that the actions of providers who may put inappropriate pressure on clients to take up unsuitable employment, or to take up unsuitable programmes to prepare them for employment, will be transparent and exposed in the single Work programme that Ministers intend to introduce?

My final point is about the universal credit, which I think many Members on the Government Benches have suggested will provide a solution to concerns about the measures that are being introduced more immediately. First, even if the universal credit proves to be the panacea that we are assured it will be, I am concerned about the hardship that will be experienced by households now, before it is actually in place. I am not setting out today to oppose the universal credit by any means, but it might be helpful, as we are clearly at an early stage in the Government’s thinking on what it might look like, if I highlight some concerns about where care will need to be taken in its design.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

I apologise for being here for only part of the debate. On the universal credit, does my hon. Friend have any insight into the logic of how the Government’s announcement on, for example, the localisation of council tax benefit—and, by the way, the 10% cut—fits with the DWP’s approach of trying to design a universal credit, but apparently without that element in it?

[Kate Green]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Points raised in favour of the universal credit were that it would remove administrative complexity and clarify people’s entitlements in and out of work. Clearly, where there is variance across the country in terms of entitlement to help with council tax, we have lost all the advantage of administrative simplicity, and transparency and clarity. That is one of the anomalies that I would be interested in hearing the Minister address.

I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on some of the risks of putting all our eggs in one basket. That may have the virtue of simplicity, but as we know, administrative systems and Government are not famous for smooth running in favour of low-income claimants. If the universal credit should happen to fall over, perhaps because of IT difficulty or for other reasons, there will be absolutely nothing else coming into households to carry them through. I very much hope that the IT will perform smoothly and that there will be no such administrative difficulties, but there are risks. It is important that we hear from Ministers what the contingency plan is, because both DWP and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs have been quite slow to compensate for difficulties in getting payments through quickly; for example, emergency payments and social fund payments have not been particularly easy to access when things have gone wrong.

From the point of view of low-income households, there is some merit in having payments coming in at different times through the month. It assists household budgeting if people know that another chunk of money will be arriving in the next few days.

I hope that the design of the universal credit will recognise that there is an issue not just of distribution of income to poorer households but of its distribution within those households. I want to be sure that we design a credit that does not disadvantage women in the household in particular by assessing and paying a credit at household level that in practice may not reach her and, therefore, may not be particularly effective in reaching her children.

The intention to introduce real-time calculation of entitlement to the universal credit will also mean real-time clawing back of benefit overpayments. It would be exceptionally difficult for low-income families to plan for that, and I would welcome the Minister’s comments.

In conclusion, the Secretary of State and the Department have an ambitious vision, and an extensive range of changes will be introduced in the near term in somewhat indecent haste, without the implications being clearly thought through. I am grateful that we have had an opportunity to raise some of our concerns. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South said earlier, there are real concerns about the devastating impact that the loss of even a few pounds can have on low-income households, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.