Chris Ruane
Main Page: Chris Ruane (Labour - Vale of Clwyd)Department Debates - View all Chris Ruane's debates with the Wales Office
(6 years, 7 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your esteemed chairmanship, Mr Paisley. May I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) on securing this important debate? He coined the phrase “energy island” to describe his constituency. His dynamism and personal energy are recognised far and wide, in the Chamber and across Wales. In fact, I think if National Grid were to plug a couple of power cables into him, it could probably power the whole of north Wales—that might be painful, though.
My hon. Friend made a comprehensive speech, lasting half an hour—and thank God he did, because I think the debate will run short. He touched on many big projects, such as Wylfa Newydd and the tidal lagoon project for Wales, but also smaller projects, including small solar projects, Dinorwig pumping station and clean coal as a transition. It was a wide and comprehensive speech, and once again I congratulate him.
Wales as a nation is blessed with natural geographical and geological assets, which have contributed to the energy of these islands for centuries. Our coalmines supplied the energy for the industrial revolution; as we all know, the first industrial revolution in the world was in the United Kingdom. That energy was supplied from south Wales coalmines. They supplied the steel mills, the factories and the steamers that traded around the world. I pay tribute to the brave miners who dug black diamonds from the earth. As the saying goes, the earth does not give up its treasures lightly. Many miners lost their lives. In fact, there were 200 mining disasters and 6,000 men died. The first disaster was in 1766 and the last in 2011.
I pay tribute to the miners. The loyalty of and sacrifice by those brave men was rewarded by the previous Conservative Governments’ pit closure programmes in the 1980s and 1990s. The Minister may laugh, but the constituencies and communities affected are still suffering to this day.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)
There is this myth about the closure of mines by Conservative Governments. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that more pits closed in Wales under the leadership of the Labour party, under Labour Governments, than under any Conservative Government?
Chris Ruane
The big difference between what occurred under Labour and under the Conservatives is that the communities were left high and dry under the Conservatives. It was a political decision to close those mines. It was spite because of the industrial action by the miners. That was the big difference, and those communities are still suffering today. I want to move on to more modern times, but I thought I would just give the historical perspective.
Albert Owen
I hear this argument from the Conservatives about closures under the Wilson and Callaghan Governments. Those mines were exhausted; there was no coal left—that was one reason why they closed them —or they were dangerous and flooding. That was why they closed them down; it was not for political reasons, but for economic reasons.
Chris Ruane
I will move on now, Mr Paisley.
We now live in greener, cleaner times, but the Conservative Government’s attitude to energy, and especially renewable energy, in Wales has not changed. I was privileged to open Wales’s first offshore wind farm—in fact, according to Wikipedia, it was the UK’s first major renewable power project—which was located off the coast of my constituency, off Rhyl and Prestatyn. North Hoyle was a pilot, test-bed project for this new industry in the UK. It had the full support of the Welsh Government, the UK Labour Government, the local MP—me—and Ann Jones, the Assembly Member. Can I ask the Minister whether he supported that project—the wind farms off north Wales—when it was proposed?
Guto Bebb
In relation to Gwynt y Môr, I was on the beach in Llandudno, insisting that the Gwynt y Môr project should ensure that there would be a local supply chain, and I am very proud of the fact that the further education college, Coleg Llandrillo Menai, is supporting the training of people to work on that site. The hon. Gentleman tries to score a cheap point, but fails again.
Chris Ruane
I am pleased that the Minister is able to say that, but as has been said, there were Conservative Members in County Conwy who did not support the project.
Chris Ruane
The leadership in Denbighshire was totally different, but again, we move on.
The North Hoyle project was an outstanding success, and I pay tribute to npower renewables, which has donated £80,000 a year since 2003 to local charities in the communities of Rhyl and Prestatyn. It was a blueprint for other renewable companies to embed themselves in those communities. Again, the support for these projects came from Labour politicians.
Chris Ruane
No. The Minister has had two bites of the cherry. He will have bags of time at the end as well; he can expand as he sees fit.
When the previous Prime Minister, David Cameron, was a candidate for leader of his party, he tried to curry favour in Wales. He visited the Tory party conference in Llandudno, pointed to the turbines outside in the sea and described them as giant bird blenders.
Chris Ruane
The Minister will have a chance to respond. David Cameron then went down to Notting Hill and put a giant bird blender on top of his chimney. [Interruption.]
Chris Ruane
It was an example of the way the Conservative party has crudely used renewable energies to change its image. As well as the wind turbine on the Prime Minister’s house, there was “Hug a Husky”, but we all know that it was superficial. As soon as the Conservatives got into power, the worm turned—the winds of change turned. The Minister will know that many in his party were climate change deniers. My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn pointed out that some of them have come around, but there is still a deep, ingrained resistance to green, renewable energies in his party.
I would like to compare and contrast the position of the Conservatives with the support that Labour gave, both in the Welsh Assembly and in Westminster. Labour supported this nascent renewable energy, wind energy, and it was a great success. We are seeing the benefits of that support today—last week, in fact—with prices per kilowatt-hour tumbling as the economies of scale take hold, research improves and manufacturing costs are reduced. It was a sound investment then, and we are looking for sound investments now and in the future in renewable energies.
Labour attempted the same level of support for the solar industry in the UK. In 2009-10, we set feed-in tariffs, in conjunction with listening to Japanese and British manufacturers, at a level that would result in investment in and actual manufacture of solar panels in the UK—not in China, but in the UK, and specifically in Wrexham in north Wales. There was a plan by the Japanese manufacturer to build the biggest solar panel factory in the whole of western Europe, but when the Conservative-coalition Government got in, they reduced the feed-in tariff rates and the Japanese factory pulled out.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn said several times that what these new industries, and established industries, need is continuity—certainty for the future. Industries that will require billions of pounds of investment need consensus and continuity, to ensure that their investments will be sound and solid and the plug will not be pulled on them with a change of Government or on a whim.
We see the same measures being employed right up to today with tidal lagoons. The Labour politicians in south Wales, the Labour Welsh Assembly Government, are engaging with those companies because they realise that of the six tidal lagoons proposed for the UK, four will be in Wales. One is proposed off the coast of my own constituency, off Rhyl and Prestatyn, and one is proposed off Conwy as well. I have had a briefing from the two companies that want to take the project forward. It will be fantastic: it will create jobs and tourism; it is futuristic; and it will have a road all the way round it. That is the type of project that needs to be supported by the Government.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Swansea West (Geraint Davies), for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) and for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) and, even though he is from 200 miles away, my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn, who talked about tidal lagoons in his speech because he recognises their importance.
There is the tidal pilot project planned for Swansea bay. That will be the first purpose-built tidal lagoon in the world and it needs extra care, nurturing and attention, because it could change the way energy is delivered or harnessed on the whole of the planet. That is worth investing in. The investment that we put into wind in 2003-04 looked as though it was a bad investment at the time, because it was at a high rate, but we are reaping the benefits now, 13 or 14 years later. That is the kind of long view that we are looking for from the Government for lagoon energy in the UK, because good things will flow from it.
I am talking about research, building skills and manufacturing expertise, and all those could be exported around the world. The Government have shown little enthusiasm for this sector, and it is beginning to dry up. There is lots of enthusiasm all over Wales and especially around the Swansea area. Can I ask the Minister a question?
Chris Ruane
He says I cannot, but I am going to ask it anyway. Will he declare his love for the lagoon? There is a local campaign called “Love the Lagoon”—it involves Conservative councillors, Conservative politicians and Conservative Members who are keen to expand that because they can see the benefit for their community. Does he love the lagoon—if that is not a personal question?
Let us look at some of the arguments that the Government have put or may put forward for weakening their support for tidal lagoons. Will they be saying that prices for wind power have dropped so much that it will make lagoons unviable? The success of wind energy is down to early political and financial support, and we want the financial support that we offered then to be replicated now by the Conservative Government to make sure that these proposals go ahead.
The Swansea lagoon, like North Hoyle, was a test bed—a pilot project to test the effectiveness of lagoons and to learn from that experience. The cost of funding the Swansea lagoon—the pathfinder—is equivalent to the cost of a pint of milk a day for every household in the UK. That is a sound investment, as far as I am concerned. If it works, we can expand it to Cardiff bay, Liverpool bay, Colwyn Bay and England, to make sure that we stay at the forefront of this great, new, green technology.
The Welsh Government have given their full support to tidal lagoons. Senior Cabinet Ministers from many Departments have met Charles Hendry and fully engaged with him. The Welsh Government have invested in the skills demand and supply report for the proposed Swansea bay lagoon development, and have provided a £1.25 million commercial loan to the tidal lagoon company.
Chris Ruane
Absolutely, there was cross-party support. I think that there are even Conservatives who support it down there. In the meantime, we have prevarication and procrastination by the UK Government on the matter of lagoons. Welsh Government Ministers wrote to their UK counterparts in April and June of this year, and I believe that the June letters have still not been responded to. Will the Minister look into that?
Tidal lagoons also have an added benefit in that they will protect the coastlines where they are located from flooding. Both Denbighshire and Conwy have suffered terrible floods. The Minister will remember the floods in the early ’90s in Sir Anthony Meyer’s old seat, Clwyd North West, in Conwy county. Five thousand homes flooded. We had floods as recently as two years ago in my constituency. There has been coastal flooding from waves and the sea. That would be prevented if we were able to establish these tidal lagoons off the coast of Wales.
Chris Ruane
That is the point that I am trying to make. They are about tourism, flood defence, manufacturing, skills and research. That is why Welsh Ministers from different Departments have engaged on the issue, and that is what we want to see from the UK Government. We want to see Ministers from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and other UK Departments engaging positively with Charles Hendry, the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly to make sure that these projects go ahead.
One of the arguments made—perhaps not by the Minister, but by others—is that with wind power and solar power, the wind is not always blowing and the sun is not always shining. With tidal lagoons we can predict down to the minute when the energy will be created over the next 125 years. It is all down to the moon and the movement of tides. That could create a predictable baseline of support for our national energy mix, on top of solar, wind power and nuclear, so that we have a good baseload of support.
All these renewable energy sources also become more viable with the advent of batteries. The lagoon will produce energy throughout the night, and if that can be stored in batteries it can benefit the rise of the battery-powered car industry in the UK. I ask the Minister to take these issues way and to consider them carefully. Hopefully, cost will not be an issue. I believe that £700 million will be saved by the cancellation of the electrification of the Cardiff to Swansea route. Can some of that money—just a fraction of it—be used to prime the Swansea economy and to support it?
I move on now to Wylfa Newydd. At £12 billion, it will be single largest investment project in Wales over the next 10 years. It has the potential to transform the economy of not only Ynys Môn and Gwynedd, but the whole of north Wales. Again, the Welsh Government have been working flat out to secure this development. It is their No. 1 priority as far as the economy is concerned. Successful delivery will involve many Welsh Government Departments if we are to maximise the economic benefit and reduce any negative effects on the environment and culture in Wales, so there is total engagement.
Big issues need to be addressed, such as the new power station’s access to the national grid and the building of a third crossing over the Menai strait. All those ducks need to be put in a row before this project starts. Again, we are looking for engagement and consensus between the Minister, MPs and Departments in Whitehall and the Welsh Government. There are many stakeholders, including local authorities; the company itself, Horizon Nuclear Power; the North Wales Economic Ambition Board; and the national Government. There is a good mix of groups and organisations, and we need to gel them together to get this renewable energy up and running in Wales.
Geraint Davies
I do not mean to take my hon. Friend off track, but I will just take him back to what he mentioned a moment ago about the cost of rail electrification to Swansea being put somewhere else. I just make the point that there are many of us across Swansea who want to hold the Conservatives to David Cameron’s promise to bring about electrification, and to keep that money in that project and deliver electrification for Swansea bay.
Ian Paisley (in the Chair)
Order. I call Chris Ruane. I encourage you to bring your remarks to an end and to start to wind up. I want to give the Minister time to respond.
Chris Ruane
I will do that, Mr Paisley—absolutely. Our No. 1 fight in Wales at the moment is to ensure that electrification from Cardiff to Swansea takes place. We have not given up. We will still be pestering. We tabled questions last week and this week, and are organising meetings. We have not given up on that.
In conclusion, we have two great opportunities to return Wales to her former glory as a provider of the nation’s energy, this time with cleaner, greener technologies that will last hundreds of years, create tens of thousands of jobs and, most importantly, save the planet. I urge the Minister and his Government to rise up to the challenge, do their bit for Wales, the UK and the planet, and get these projects moving.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Paisley.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) on a wide-ranging, detailed speech, which is nothing less than I would expect from him. He has always shown a great interest in the energy sector in Ynys Môn, and his enthusiasm and hard work in Anglesey is well understood by myself, from both before I was elected to this place and since. I suspect that he was very pleased that in June the people of Ynys Môn acknowledged that hard work when they provided him with the largest majority that he has enjoyed since he was first elected to this place in 2001. I congratulate him on that comprehensive success.
I considered the hon. Gentleman’s speech to be very wide-ranging and thoughtful. It was made in his typical manner—he always tries to be consensual and cross-party in his approach. I believe that is one reason for his recent success. It is fair to say that some of the speeches then fell into party political point scoring. That is a great shame because, as many Members have said, there is cross-party support for energy developments and opportunities in Wales. There is cross-party support for the nuclear sector in Anglesey—perhaps not from all parties in all parts of Wales, but certainly from all parties in Anglesey. There is cross-party support for the concept of a small modular reactor in Trawsfynydd, and for the concept of a tidal lagoon.
It is important to deal with the issue of the tidal lagoon at the outset. People want a tidal lagoon to be developed at Swansea. They can see the potential of the technology, and that the lagoon offers an opportunity for economic regeneration in Swansea and other parts of Wales. All Members in this place should support that. As the hon. Gentleman and other Members have mentioned, it is important to ensure that we have a cost-effective energy supply, prevent fuel poverty and avoid a situation in which businesses struggle to compete internationally due to energy prices. I therefore make no apology that this Government have commissioned the Hendry review and are taking it seriously.
My point, as the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) conceded in his speech, is that the funding of a tidal lagoon is a complex calculation that must be done by Government. He is absolutely right that we do not have to go back to the floods that struck Towyn in my constituency, for example, to understand the importance of flood defences in north Wales; there was flooding in Deganwy fairly recently. The construction of a tidal lagoon has the potential to deal with those issues, but I argue that flood defences are a devolved issue, not an energy generation issue.
A complex set of calculations need to be undertaken. The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd also said that the cost, equal to a pint of milk a day, was eminently affordable. A pint of milk a day is £3.50 a week, or £14 a month. Before being flippant about £14 a month, he should remember that not all pensioners in Wales enjoy the salary of an MP. I would expect a Labour Member, of all Members of this House, to understand that £14 is a significant sum on a pensioner’s bill.
Chris Ruane
If I did say £14 a month, I apologise. The figure should have been £14 a year; I hope that the Minister will take that in the spirit in which it was meant. Also, can he give us a date when the Government will respond to the Hendry report?