Domestic Ivory Market

Danny Kinahan Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2017 Westminster Hall

[Mr Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con)]

I cannot believe that any wild animal would dare to take on the hon. Gentleman.

[Danny Kinahan (South Antrim) (UUP)]

Well, you are.

[Mr Vaizey]

And look what will happen to me. Will the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) clarify his position? If an antique contains ivory and is perhaps in a world-renowned museum, will it be allowed to sell it or lend it to another museum under his proposals?

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[Danny Kinahan (South Antrim) (UUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Luke Hall) on introducing the debate today and all those who signed the petition, and on the passion behind it, particularly from the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann).

I am here to speak because I want the ivory ban in place, but I want us to recognise the importance of the antiques trade in this country. In everything we do, we must always find the right balance. It is absolutely right that we ban ivory—I think the phrase used earlier was “a near-complete ban”—and do so as quickly as possible, but we must also recognise ivory’s place in our history and tourism.

I was in Kenya many years ago—it would be terrific to show everyone the wonders of the wildlife there. I remember watching a film of the farmers annihilating some 150 elephants because they kept breaking out of a game park and eating the maize crops. That is the main problem. We should aid those countries so that they can have proper game parks, secure rangers and economies that work. That is where we should concentrate a lot of our effort. The ban would do a little bit to help, but we must recognise that it is just a tiny bit, and that we must do much more work through our aid and world trade.

[Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman concede that people are at the heart of saving the elephant? Work by organisations such as the Northern Rangelands Trust in Kenya has done an enormous amount to make local people understand the value of wildlife. Directing aid and support for communities through that prism is the best possible way to get people and wildlife to live together.

[Danny Kinahan]

I could not have made a better point. We have to educate everyone in the world, and particularly the Chinese, as many have said today. It is also about showing the Africans the benefit and hoping that tourism, wildlife and everything else helps their countries into the future.

The antiques trade here is worth some £13 billion. I do not want to counter the argument for an ivory ban, but I shall give some facts and figures to make us think more about what a total ban would do. One document I was reading said that up to 2025 tourism will be worth £257 billion to the UK—10% of our GDP—and will be responsible for 3.8 million jobs. Tourists visit some 5,000 to 6,000 venues in the UK that have small and sometimes large antique ivory pieces.

We have to be very careful how we tackle the antiques trade. One or two hon. Members have criticised the existing cut-off date of 1947. The convention on international trade in endangered species guidelines are accepted in the trade, including by the people who know best about dates and times. It is better to go down that route than to try and work on carbon dating. Changing the date to 1900 may seem logical, but that takes out the two of the greatest periods in art—art nouveau and art deco.

[Pauline Latham]

When I talked about changing the date to 1900, I was not talking about banning every transaction. All the genuine art deco pieces would be included, provided that they have been verified by somebody independent. That is not the problem. I just want a very clear date that everybody understands.

[Danny Kinahan]

Having a very clear date is absolutely right. I point out only that a date of 1900 means that we miss out on two of our greatest art movements, so we should keep that in mind. Coming from the other side, I want to see an ivory ban, but I want to see the trade being protected in the right way.

[Rob Marris]

I am not an expert in these things, but because of the horrors of the atomic bombs in Japan, 1947 does not seem to be a bad date for carbon dating. The hon. Gentleman just said that he does not particularly favour a carbon dating approach. He is much more of an expert than me, so can he indicate how much it would cost to carbon date each piece?

[Danny Kinahan]

My answer is no—I have never been involved in the carbon dating side of things. I have been involved in working out the provenance and the date so that we have the complete history of where something came from, and the value, but I have never been involved in carbon dating and have no idea how much it costs.

We have watched ISIS destroying Palmyra and the Taliban destroy the two fantastic Buddha statues in Bamiyan. If we had a blanket ban, we would be a little bit on the same page, in that we would be trying to get rid of some of the most beautiful items. If ivory were banned, it would not be looked after because it would be worthless. I have seen that happen with a most beautiful Edwardian shotgun stick. It was made illegal—it was banned—and was left in the local police station. It had to be cut into pieces, even though it was one of the most beautiful pieces I have seen—it had a little gold top and a lion’s head and everything on it. Are we really trying to go down that route?

[Pauline Latham]

May I challenge what the hon. Gentleman is saying? He suggests we would lose all those pieces, but we will not lose anything. They will still exist, and if they can be verified, they can be traded. I am not saying, “Ban all trade.” I am talking about a near-complete ban, so that all the new stuff—all the trinkets—are not traded. We have to have a near-complete ban.

[Danny Kinahan]

I agree entirely. It is not about a total ban, but a near-complete ban. I am not criticising the hon. Lady for what she said. I just make the point that we need to look after such stunningly beautiful items. If there is a ban, in time more of the items will not be looked after, and eventually there will be none. Similarly, if we do not look after elephants and tigers, there will be none. At the moment, the situation is leaning towards the animals being lost, so we have to find the right balance.

Let me run through some things that have ivory in them. We all know about antique pianos and musical instruments—often, the pieces on violins that people turn to fit and change strings are often ivory, and 95% of our brass and wind instruments contain ivory. Even the bagpipes I was looking at the other day had ivory fittings. Some 80% of all chess sets contain ivory. One of our greatest exhibits is probably the Lewis chessmen, which are made out of mammoth tusk. Those would be banned. We have to work a way through. What we must stop happening is people copying them and then trying to sell them today.

Portrait miniatures from the 18th and 19th centuries were painted on a thin sliver of ivory, and we particularly need to look after those. People carried those portraits with them when they were travelling the world. They are little bits of history—whether we are talking about Nelson, the Duke of Wellington or Robbie Burns. Those little gems of painting would not be looked after, so we have to make sure that we do. On the other hand, there is the Chinese and oriental trade, with some stunning antique pieces, yet at the same time, we have the problem of those being copied and of other things being made today. That is what we have to stop. We have people here in the trade and in our museums who can advise us. I hope the Minister will set up a committee that can give certificates, set the rules, and advise and be dynamic in how we operate the near-ban.

No. 4 in the book, “A History of the World in 100 Objects” is the swimming reindeer, from 11,000 BC. It is made of ivory, as are No. 11, King Den’s sandal label from 2,980 BC, and No. 61, the Lewis chessmen, which I have mentioned. They are very much part of our history.

[Mr Vaizey]

I do not want to turn this into a pub quiz, but HMS Beagle’s chronometer—object No. 91—has ivory in it. In fact, the British Museum has 13,000 objects that are made of ivory. We have to reach a consensus, which I think is breaking out, that antiques should be exempt from any ban.

[Danny Kinahan]

I could not have taken a more helpful intervention. That is exactly what I was leading to. The British Museum, which loans pieces worldwide and looks after the items that are the whole world’s history and artefacts, has bought, paid for and kept parts of collections from Iran and Iraq. It gathers in objects from around the world. Think of our museums, galleries and great houses everywhere. The ivory trade is in there in part. Yes, it may be ghastly and awful that that is what people did in the past, but we have to find the balance.

[John Mann]

Museums also have shrunken heads on display and lend the most famous ones across the world, but that does not suggest that we should allow a trade in shrunken heads today, does it?

[Danny Kinahan]

How appalling would that be? Yes, I agree with that little point, but on the whole we must recognise everyone’s history and work together to keep all forms of history.

[Rebecca Pow (Taunton Deane) (Con)]

I cannot compete with shrunken heads. Contrary to some hon. Members’ views, the Chinese have announced a ban on ivory for March 2017. Beijing says that ivory trading and processing, other than auctions of legitimately sourced antiques, will be outlawed, so they have come up with a plan to save their antiques. Does the hon. Gentleman have a view on that? We might learn some lessons.

[Danny Kinahan]

I rather hope we come up with a plan that is as good if not better. I welcome the fact that the Chinese have accepted the ban, but as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, we need to ensure that they actually do it and put the rules and regulations in place to stop the misuse of ivory. Having worked for Christie’s for 18 years, valuing contents in people’s houses and helping to sell them, I have seen stunningly beautiful items that need to be looked after and allowed to be traded. I have also seen the modern stuff coming from Africa that proves that we need to have the near-ban.

I should like to make one final point. I have a very strange exam pass: an O-level in east African history, which is a whole other story. It was a very short O-level, because east Africa’s history is very short—it has only been written up for 200 years, because people passed on their history by word of mouth. For them, the few key items from the past that are made of ivory are their history. As time goes on and the stories are lost, items such as the Benin heads and Benin ivories in the British Museum are key to understanding the Africans and celebrating their history.

We need a near-ban. Let us do it quickly, but let us do it right and ensure that we protect everyone’s history and everyone’s culture. That is the right way forward.

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[Mr Paterson]

The hon. Gentleman has cited evidence of cheating. The point is that the UK is by far the largest exporter of ivory items among EU members. According to CITES, the EU had a huge export volume of about 1,874 ivory transactions from 2006 to 2015, but we were easily the largest with 25,351. That is 54% of the EU total, and we know cheating goes on. Bluntly, we have to learn lessons. In China, it has always been an iconic key feature of great family occasions—a wedding, a banquet or a state occasion—to eat shark fin soup. It has come down from on high in recent years and the party establishment in China has said, “We have got to stop this because of the damage to shark populations,” and they have. Habits have changed.

The immediate reaction to ivory is, “Great. There’s world demand. It is marvellous that there is now prosperity in China and people are not dying of starvation as they were when I grew up. Let us let them prosper. Let them buy ivory and let us grow more of the item.” The problem is that we simply cannot farm elephants and rhinoceroses and meet the demand. If there is any legal activity, it gives cover to the illegal activity. That is a tragedy. I would love to be a Hayekian on this. I would love to say, “Let us open up savannahs and grow masses of elephants.”

We cannot cope with 600 million new middle-class people with middle-class aspirations in China, where ivory has great value and is seen to be an investment. That is the worst thing. Some are buying ivory knowing that the supply will dwindle and ultimately disappear when elephants are exterminated, and their product will go up. The answer is to follow what they did on shark fins. Let us simply make this a non-U item. It should simply not be acceptable.

We have stopped drink-driving. It is no longer acceptable in this country. It is very simple. I am afraid I totally disagree with the hon. Member for South Antrim and my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington. It is completely ludicrous to put things on the same level.

[Danny Kinahan]

Does the right hon. Gentleman not see that we are all on the same page? I want the near ban to protect the animals as much as he and anyone else does. This is a question of semantics. We have got to find an urgent way of protecting the elephants. We do not have to damage the antiques trade. We can do things together, but let us do it quickly. Let us learn from the Chinese and the Americans. We are all on the same page.

[Mr Paterson]

In that spirit of co-operation, perhaps we could agree among ourselves that we need to close down the majority of the trade in products from live animals, otherwise we will lose the elephant. Perhaps we could have a near-comprehensive ban, which is not quite what the hon. Member for Bassetlaw wanted.

I ask the Minister whether we could extend the consultation, which still has not started yet. I had a good meeting with the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) and Lord Hague last week, along with DEFRA and Foreign Office officials. As I understand it, there is a possibility that, because the post-1947 consultation has not yet started, we could extend it deeper. We could look at a complete ban or a rolling 100-year ban, as the United States has done, but sadly, I am convinced that a post-1947 ban is worthless. If it falls down on the so-called fast-track rule—we have already been faffing around for 19 weeks—let us go for a full-blooded consultation on a really meaningful ban that is near-comprehensive and look at what the States has done on 200 grams and de minimis. We will not be destroying ancient bagpipes and pianos and absolutely not destroying wonderful ancient painted panels. We would be stopping the trade, which can be disguised and which allows illegal activity to carry on elsewhere. If we do not do that, we will lag behind and the Chinese will be well ahead of us.

We will be hosting the conference, which I am delighted to say is coming back to London, having been to Botswana and Hanoi, where the Secretary of State made a splendid and resounding statement that she wanted to introduce a ban, but we will still be limping along behind. We have lost the leadership.