Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Danny Kruger Excerpts

Friday 13th June 2025 Commons Chamber

[Kim Leadbeater]

I am going to make some progress, I am afraid.

The Secretary of State must also consult providers of health and care services, including palliative and end-of-life care. I am really pleased that Hospice UK is supporting this amendment—it is very important that those voices are heard. The Secretary of State can also consult anyone else they feel to be appropriate, creating a flexible and holistic approach.

Turning to devolution, this long-overdue reform would apply to England and Wales, which share a criminal justice system. Health is a devolved matter, of course, and I have recognised from the outset that the legislation must respect devolution. I am fully committed to observing the same conventions that the Government would if this were a Government Bill. I have worked with UK Government officials to ensure that the right steps are taken at the right time by the right people. I have engaged with colleagues in the Welsh Government—I met the Welsh Health Minister in Cardiff, and there have been ongoing detailed discussions between the two teams of Government officials to ensure the workability of the legislation in both jurisdictions, in line with the devolution settlement.

Amendments 92 to 95 also ensure that the devolution settlement is respected and adhered to. I thank the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) and the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sarah Green), not only for their diligent work on the Bill Committee but for working with me on the amendments in relation to Wales, and I thank the Welsh Government for their guidance and support. I hope that colleagues across the House can support these new clauses and amendments.

I now turn to new clause 21, which makes specific provision about the use of the Welsh language. The conversations that happen at the end of a person’s life are extremely personal and should be handled with the utmost sensitivity. It is very important that they are conducted in the best interests of the patient, and a big part of that is using clear communication. In this respect, language matters, so if a patient in Wales has Welsh as their first or preferred language, all efforts should be made to ensure they can communicate with voluntary assisted dying services in Welsh. I committed to this in Committee, and have made good on that commitment.

Turning to amendments 76 and 77, as with any Bill, it is important that the amending legislation secures overall coherence with the statute book. As such, the clauses relating to medicines, advertising and employment protections amend, or confer power to amend, other legislation that currently extends to parts of the UK. Of course, this does not mean the provision of assisted dying, but, for example, they extend the prohibition on advertising to the whole of the UK and apply the employment protections in the Bill to Scotland. That is in line with the guidance I have received from legal experts, and as such I hope all colleagues can support these amendments. If the Bill passes, I will, if necessary, work with other devolved Administrations in the same way as I have worked with the Welsh Government to ensure that devolution is respected.

That concludes the explanations of the amendments tabled in my name. Many colleagues are keen to speak, so I am not going to comment on all the amendments in the group; I will just make two comments about amendments that are not in my name, and allow other people plenty of time to speak.

Amendment 42, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee), would not only try to remove the backstop for the provision of assisted dying in England, but create a number of other issues in relation to commencement. If Parliament chooses to give this choice to terminally ill people, there cannot be a clause in the Bill that would prevent that from being available as soon as it was safe and practicable. But the amendment would remove the four-year backstop. It would also prevent the appointment of the voluntary assisted dying commissioner and create a potential commencement gap between England and Wales. Given that, I have been strongly advised that the amendment would create serious workability issues. I urge colleagues who want an operable Bill to join me in rejecting the amendment.

To finish, I am pleased to support amendment 21, tabled by the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson). I thank her for her engagement with the Bill and the amendment, which would require the Secretary of State to prepare and publish an assessment of the availability, quality and distribution of palliative and end-of-life care, as part of the first report on the implementation of the Act, mirroring the assessment already required as part of the five-year review.

Although the Bill seeks to address what in some respects is a very specific issue in terms of the failings of the current law, it has become part of a much-needed broader conversation about death, dying and end-of-life care. We all have our own experiences of death, loss and grief, and we do not talk about them enough. I am really pleased that the Bill has led to many conversations up and down the country; whatever our views, that has to be a positive thing.

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Kim Leadbeater]

I have nearly finished.

I have had many such conversations over recent months with those who support the amendment, including with palliative care doctors, nurses, hospice staff, GPs, Hospice UK and Marie Curie. I thank them all for their constructive engagement with the Bill. I cannot imagine that anyone in this place is not truly grateful for the outstanding work done every day by the wonderful people working in palliative and end-of-life care in every one of our constituencies. Many of us, if not most of us, will have personal experience of the kindness and compassion that those people have shown to our own families and friends.

But this is not an either/or conversation. Palliative and end-of-life care and assisted dying can and do work side by side to give terminally ill patients the care and choice that they deserve in their final days. Just as there should not be an either/or for dying people, there should also not be an either/or for us as legislators in having to choose between supporting assisted dying or other end-of-life choices. That is why I am supporting amendment 21: to ensure that in this place we channel our energies into supporting all options available to terminally ill people—something that I have always committed to do.

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[Paul Waugh]

The point of my amendment is to make sure that a future Secretary of State would have to come before the House with primary legislation.

Report stage is not about the principles of the Bill. It is not about whether a Member may, in principle, support the idea of assisted dying, as Mr Speaker will point out to everybody who strays from the amendments. It is about the individual Bill before us today. We have to ask: what will it mean in the real world for our very real constituents?

[Danny Kruger]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Paul Waugh]

I will not; I am short of time.

Just how strong are the Bill’s safeguards? We are not commentators; we are legislators. Our job is to scrutinise, to test and to test again the Bills that come to this place. I spent 26 years up there in the Press Gallery writing about politics, but the big difference between them and us is that we have a vote in this place. With that vote, particularly a free vote, comes responsibility, and there is no greater responsibility than protecting the vulnerable from feeling they have to end their life. That is why I tabled the amendment.

I am not driven by religion, though I do not believe that those with religious faiths should be denigrated or patronised, as they have been during the passage of the Bill. It is worth saying that some of those who passionately support assisted dying have a faith—a devout faith—that their world view is the right one. I am driven instead by my duty as a legislator to get this Bill right, and by what I see as my moral duty to protect the most vulnerable in society.

I believe that my duty is to protect those who do not have celebrity names or campaign groups behind them—the people who do not get heard, who do not want to be a bother, who do not want to make a fuss, and who feel at the end of their lives that they are a burden on their family but may never say so. I worry about the unheard, the unseen, the ignored and the marginalised. Most of all, I worry about the heartbreaking modesty of that phrase we often hear from older people: “I don’t want to be any trouble, love.” We need, for their sakes, to make sure that the safeguards in the Bill are the strongest they can possibly be.

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[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

I am grateful to have my first opportunity to contribute on this Bill. It would not be appropriate to dilate on my profound anxieties about it, but I approach these amendments in the spirit of constructive engagement. I rise to speak to linked amendments 82 to 86, which would strengthen the panel by giving it some of the features of the High Court safeguard that was, regrettably, removed.

We heard from the hon. Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater) that the panel will now be stronger because it includes a broader range of expertise. The argument against that, of course, is that the High Court was a stronger safeguard because it has the powers of a court and the independence of the judiciary. My amendments would mean that we do not have to choose between the two: the panel is part of the Bill, but we can have a better panel if we give it some of the features of the High Court, namely its independence, the calibre of its judges, and its powers as a court.

Amendment 82 would require all panel members to be appointed by the Judicial Appointments Commission, which nominates judges in England and Wales. Currently, the selection of panel members is wholly down to the voluntary assisted dying commissioner. Schedule 2 says:

“The Commissioner must make appointments to a list of persons eligible to sit as members of panels.”

I have absolutely no doubt that the commissioner will be someone of great integrity and experience, but he or she will certainly be a strong advocate of assisted dying, as will those who put themselves forward for the panels. That may create an impression that the VAD commission is a self-selecting group with a particular set of institutional views.

If the system is to command public confidence, I believe that appointments would be best administered by an external body, and the Judicial Appointments Commission is the obvious choice. We in this country trust the judiciary, partly because we know that they represent no set of opinions.

[Danny Kruger]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his amendments. He is absolutely right to say that this country trusts the judges, which is why this House was so enthusiastic about the inclusion of the High Court in the original Bill. Does he agree that by reintroducing proper judicial scrutiny at this stage we would be reverting to the Bill that the House voted for on Second Reading?

[John Glen]

It will not surprise my hon. Friend to hear that I agree wholeheartedly. I recognise that that was a major reason that many colleagues gave at earlier points in our discussions and deliberations.

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[Mr Alex Barros-Curtis (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

I stand in support of new clauses 20 and 21, along with amendments 89 and 90 and 92 to 95, all of which are in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater). Colleagues need not fear—I will not speak to all of them.

I am a proud Welsh MP, and a lot of the debate today has centred on differences or confusion about the distinction on devolution on aspects of the Bill. Focusing on new clause 21 and consequential amendment 90, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley and to the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) for their work together on this issue to ensure that people in Wales can access the assisted dying process in the Welsh language, if that is their preference.

In the last few months, I have met with many constituents about this Bill, including medical professionals and palliative care consultants. One of their overarching concerns is a fear that the language barrier may inadvertently impact on the ability of a relevant person in Wales properly to access and understand the assisted dying process. I am grateful to those constituents, including Dr Siwan Seaman and Professor Mark Taubert.

Accordingly, new clause 21 and amendment 90 are important. They seek to replace clause 47 and provide Welsh versions of the forms for the first or second declaration, the report about the first or second assessment of a person, and the final statement. Further, they stipulate that where a relevant person informs the voluntary assisted dying commissioner that they wish to communicate in Welsh, the commissioner must take all reasonable steps to ensure that that wish is respected and that communications by the relevant assisted dying review panel are in Welsh. These are important amendments, as they are about accessibility and respect, ensuring that language is never a barrier to compassionate end-of-life care. They uphold the principle of linguistic equality, which is well-established in public services in Wales, and I trust that that should not be controversial to colleagues when they come to vote later on.

As a Welsh MP, I am pleased to see the inclusion of amendments 92, 93, 94 and 95. While they may appear to be small amendments, they are important. As my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley said, they fully respect the devolution settlement by ensuring that Welsh Ministers have all necessary powers on devolved aspects of the Bill—health—while retaining the powers of UK Ministers over aspects that are not devolved. I think that was slightly misunderstood earlier by some in this debate.

Taken together, the amendments provide clarity and legal certainty and offer reassurance to patients, clinicians and Government agencies in Wales. That principle should be uncontroversial. I know from my own discussions with the Welsh Government and the Welsh Health Minister that he is extremely grateful for the interactions he has had with my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, and he is confident this measure is workable from the Welsh perspective.

New clause 5 seeks to mandate that the Secretary of State must, within six months, publish a report setting out the impact of this legislation on the civil procedure rules and probate proceedings. During the debate and the streams of evidence we have heard, I do not recall a suggestion that this Bill is likely to result in any serious changes to those specifically referenced matters. On the contrary, England’s CMO, Professor Sir Chris Whitty, warned against creating a “bureaucratic thicket”, saying that the best safeguards are the simplest ones. Let us keep that at the centre of our minds when we consider this legislation and avoid inserting amendments that are no doubt well-intentioned but would create such a thicket.

I conclude by sharing one story from a constituent of mine who was focused very much on safeguards, which has been the debate on all these amendments and new clauses.

[Danny Kruger]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Barros-Curtis]

I will not, because I want to finish up; I appreciate the hon. Member’s forbearance.

That constituent was Claire O’Shea. Claire was originally diagnosed with irritable bowel syndrome; it was only much later that it was realised she had stage 4 cancer. Within an hour of this House voting to pass this Bill on Second Reading, Claire messaged me to say:

“What a powerful debate today. It’s hard to say I’m ‘pleased’ as it’s a terrible issue to have to contemplate. But it’s such a relief to know the next stage is open and hopefully allays the fears of those talking about safeguards.”

Claire lost her battle with cancer last month, so I am pleased that we are here again, discussing the specifics of this Bill and talking about amendments in good faith that either side thinks will enhance its safeguards. In honour of Claire and for all those like her, I urge colleagues to support the amendments and new clauses I have outlined and to support the Bill itself.

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[Richard Tice (Boston and Skegness) (Reform)]

I rise to support new clauses 13 to 15, and to oppose amendment 42. I commend the hon. Member for Spen Valley (Kim Leadbeater) on the way that she has navigated this incredibly difficult and sensitive process.

In considering these clauses and the passage of the Bill, I have kept in mind the simple but difficult word “pain”, because the legislation is about those who face a certain death in unimaginable pain, and its relationship with palliative care and the word “choice”.

[Danny Kruger]

On that point, will the hon. Member give way?

[Richard Tice]

I will not, because so many hon. Members wish to speak.

In this country we are lucky enough to have some of the finest palliative care in the world, and it is a noble aspiration to want to improve that—to be the best in the world. Nevertheless, many of us will have seen loved ones, family members and friends, suffer huge pain even given the finest palliative care. The trauma that that leaves for those left behind can be painful and enduring, which is why we are where we are.