Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Debate between David Ward and Lord Beamish

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

This is not a difficult one for me. I believe that benefits are far too high—I think most people accept they are at an unsustainable level.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Too high?

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between David Ward and Lord Beamish

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

We are in the same position as we were in last week, in that we are discussing a measure to which most Members agree in principle. Perhaps not all Members agreed on business rates, but we are discussing consequences.

My understanding—we have been told—is that the sums show that the measure balances itself out nationally, whether at £420 million or £500 million.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

No it does not.

[Mr Ward]

Whether the hon. Gentleman believes it or not, that is what we are told. The real issue is the local ramifications—winners and losers area by area.

[Mr Jones]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Ward]

Let me just get on. I want to develop my thoughts if I may.

[Mr Jones]

But that statement was wrong!

[Mr Ward]

It does not really matter because we are talking about local ramifications—how the measure affects each area and what each area will be required to do to make up for lost council tax benefit.

The question is where the money will come from to make up the gap, and there are a couple of answers. First, there are the new freedoms that will be extended to local authorities, and locally determined schemes will generate a lot of additional funding. Members have raised the issue of pensioners being protected, and that will pass the burden on to other people.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Ward]

No. Just sit and listen.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ward]

No.

However, that is not really the point. It does not really matter whether those two figures equate. If they do, it will be pure fluke and pure coincidence. If a local authority can generate sufficient funding from the new freedoms to cover the loss in council tax, it will be sheer fluke, and a policy cannot be based on fluke. The certainty of loss will be there, without the certainty of gain. The certainty of the Government withdrawing the 10% will be there; the uncertainty of what can be generated at this time is clear for all to see.

In addition, the collection costs for the alternative sources of funding for the exemptions on classes A, C and L could be enormous. We must take account of the cost of the arrears and the cost of collecting those additional sources of funding. The Government’s position is, “Don’t worry. You may be losing council tax, but your new-found freedoms will easily generate the funds required to balance that.” However, that is simply not guaranteed authority by authority, and it is based on sources of funds that it will be difficult to collect in some cases. There are huge differences when it comes to residents telling their council, “I’ve got an empty property. Give me a discount” and residents saying, “I’ve got a second home. Please tax me.”

[Mr Kevan Jones]

There are a lot of second homes in Bradford.

[Mr Ward]

There are, actually, several hundred second homes in Bradford.

If authorities cannot generate funding from the new-found freedoms, the other answer is for them to find it somewhere else in their budget. They have this wonderful freedom to find other areas where they can balance the books. The problem is that council tax is likely to be high in areas of high need. Areas of high need will have high formula grant, and areas of high formula grant will have suffered a large cut in the local government settlement. All those things together mean that the risk, or the uncertainty people have talked about, is disproportionately likely to hit more deprived communities.

I think it was the hon. Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) who said that 10% is 10%. There may be a lot more council tax in monetary terms in Durham or Bradford than in Meon Valley, but 10% is 10%. However, that is not really the issue, because more deprived, less affluent areas will be disproportionately harmed, given that they have disproportionately more council tax recipients. That is not fair, but the issue of fairness cannot be assessed until the thing has run its course, and we have developed all the possible ways that an authority may have of generating funds.

Of course, there is the issue of whether the software can be introduced, but there are also the unanswered questions. How will the future growth in claimant numbers affect the 90% base in terms of eligibility? Opposition Members talked about the low level of claims by certain groups, such as pensioners, where 65% of those who are eligible actually claim. What will the scheme do to protect authorities from the growth in claimant numbers as a result of increased take-up or deteriorating economic circumstances? What is the situation with the administration grant for council tax support? When will authorities know about that? Where is the evidence that has been collected about the relative difficulty of collecting some of the income from the new potential sources of income? Where is the evidence that that will be done?

Finally, the proposals are clearly Treasury driven. Most people here have at heart local government and the local government system. That is why we have a generally positive response to localisation measures as they affect local authorities, although we understand that local government must make a contribution to tackling the deficit, as it has through the local government settlement. However, instead of treating local authorities as cash cows, why could we not have treated them as partners in deficit reduction? Why could we not have gone go them and said, “We will keep the council tax, and we intend to reduce council tax benefit over a period of time. In the first year, having given you that warning, we will extend new powers and freedoms to you to collect tax and remove some exemptions. You will yield the money that is generated from them to the Exchequer, so you will keep your council tax, and there will be no 10% cut, but it is on its way. In the meantime, you should generate additional funds from the new freedoms you will be given and yield those funds to the Exchequer in the first year. You will then be weaned off that over a period of time.” In the spirit of the business rates, why do we not do that, with some reward to those authorities that take up the challenge of extending the council tax base by generating money from new sources?

There was a different way to tackle this issue.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Vote against it.

[Mr Ward]

I am going to. Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I am not a party lackey. Sometimes, we have to vote the right way, not simply the way the party tells us.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ward]

Not at all. I anticipate that any local authority worth its salt would have regard to all the things proposed in the amendments. In fact, that will differentiate good local authorities from bad ones, but it is not for the Secretary of State to specify those things, or indeed for us to do so through legislation, which frankly would be patronising and very centralist. As we said many times in relation to the Localism Bill, people have a right to judge at the ballot box whether their authorities are doing what they should be doing—it is not for this House to tell them.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

I was going to say that it was a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward), but his contribution kept getting worse.

Clause 8 of the Bill, headed “Council tax reduction schemes”, sets out the provisions for local councils to draw up their local council tax schemes. Proposed new subsection (2) states:

“Each billing authority in England must make a scheme specifying the reductions which are to apply to amounts of council tax payable, in respect of dwellings situated in its area, by—

(a) persons whom the authority considers to be in financial need, or

(b) persons in classes consisting of persons whom the authority considers to be, in general, in financial need.”

However, the Bill gives no guidance on what local authorities should take into consideration when drawing up their schemes. We could have a plethora of different schemes up and down the country and, as was referred to earlier by Government Members, neighbouring authorities could have completely different schemes and criteria for how people apply for council tax benefit. We know that the Secretary of State will exclude pensioners, but the amendments tabled by my right hon. and hon. Friends would add some criteria or at least set out what the baseline should be.

I am sorry that the hon. Member for Bradford East does not seem to care and trusts that every local authority, good or bad, will consider every single thing, including child poverty. If he had any experience of the Secretary of State’s time in charge of Bradford council, for example—clearly he had—he would know that he had little concern for the poor and the needy.

[Mr Ward]

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman carried out a full impact assessment before voting to get rid of the 10p rate of income tax, which affected the most deprived people in the country.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between David Ward and Lord Beamish

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

I think the hon. Lady represents Dorset, and there is a big difference between Dorset and parts of County Durham. Even though there are some very beautiful parts of County Durham, I am sure that Dorset’s economic activity shows it to be far more affluent than parts of County Durham. I support local decisions being taken at a local level, but I do not support a system in which her constituents in wealthier areas will gain at the expense of constituencies such as mine that need support for economic development.

What we heard last week on Second Reading from Government Members was absolutely disgraceful. Conservative Member after Conservative Member referred to local councillors not being interested in economic development. I have to say that I have never yet met one who does not want to increase the economic vibrancy of their area. They put a lot of effort into doing that, and such comments show again the prejudice of Government Members.

The changes to council tax benefit will be a nightmare for councils not just because of the localisation of the system but because of its top-slicing—

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

Speak to the amendments, will you?

[Mr Jones]

I am sorry, but I think you are chairing the Committee, Mr Amess, not a Liberal Democrat Member who usually has very little to say, and frankly when he does it is not very interesting.

I am talking about the time scale of what is being introduced. We will have to work out the methodology of how the funds are to be distributed. We hear, for example, that pensioners are not going to be included, which will have an effect on some poorer councils, such as the eastern part of County Durham, with large ageing populations. The time scale for the system’s introduction is very limited, and there is uncertainty about exactly how it will happen. Instead, the Bill should have included the schedules, procedures, mechanisms for redistribution and so on.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

Exactly. Not for the first time, some of those chickens are coming home to roost. Hopefully, we will have fewer Liberal Democrat “Focus” leaflets claiming credit for everything that goes right and criticising everything else that the previous Government did. Some of those northern councils had Liberal Democrats, but thankfully, in places such as Newcastle and Sheffield, the electorate have seen through them.

In conclusion, the timetable for the Bill needs to be rethought. As suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), if we can take witnesses at this stage, we should consider doing so, because otherwise the same will happen as has happened with a lot of Bills this Session: the Bill will be rushed through here only to be held up in the other place, where the ladies and gentlemen will give it the proper scrutiny that it deserves.

[Mr Ward]

I want to make just a few comments. I also consider it regrettable that the Committee stage is being taken here and not in one of the Committee Rooms. The quality of debate might have been better in that environment.

I am sympathetic to the amendments on deferment. I want to discuss that point in particular. After many, many years of seeking the change for which most in the House have called, we have before us a radical and important shift in the relationship between local government and central Government, but we face a potentially enormous change of not just a financial nature but a constitutional nature. One of the concerns that I guess we all share is about the unknown consequences of the redistributional impact.

Yes, there are tariffs and top-ups, and we welcome the application of the retail prices index to the baselines for business rates and local authority funding—that is welcome—but actually local government finance is not too complex. Yes, the formula and weightings are complex. We all know about the complexities of what goes into the computer and the figures that come out, but its purpose at the moment is actually pretty simple: to redistribute funds to authorities on the basis of need. That is pretty simple. But we are moving from that system to a new system.

We all welcome, I think, the principle behind localisation. The trouble is that, with many of the things we are facing, the easier it is to accept something in principle, the more difficult it is to challenge the consequences. Because we are talking about such a strong principle, which many of us hold, we are willing to accept some of the consequences, or potential consequences, when we are not fully aware of what they will be. There may or may not be a change if we move from a system based on the allocation of funds by need to one based on allocation by growth in business rates. However one thing we do know is that if things go wrong, it must, by definition, be one that, with the total pot—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ward]

Just to conclude—

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Good.

[Mr Ward]

You and I are going to have to have words later.

Finance (No. 3) Bill

Debate between David Ward and Lord Beamish

Tuesday 3rd May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. One of this Government’s favourite soundbites is that “We are all in it together”, but it is quite clear that we are not all in it together. When bankers are claiming bonuses such as the ones we know certain individuals have got, it is just mind boggling to think about what could be done with the money.

[Mr Ward]

It is useful to have on record your opposition to the reduction in corporation tax, which will enable the companies concerned to employ many of the people about whom you have been talking. However, what really interests me is why, when the Government are monitoring every single day the repayment of loans to the banks, the effect of the tax levy and its adequacy, banks’ lending to businesses—which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), who is sitting next to you—and the strengthening of the banks’ balance sheets, you are prepared to wait—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

Given the hon. Gentleman’s interventions, I am pleased that he will be here for only one term. It is simply not worth responding to some of them. I should have more respect for him if he asked—

[Mr Ward]

Answer the question.

[Mr Jones]

I would answer the question if it were not so stupid. If the hon. Gentleman believes that the review would be delayed for too long, why does he not table an amendment demanding that it be produced immediately? I am happy to give way to him if he wishes to intervene again.

[Mr Ward]

If you are interested—if the hon. Gentleman is interested—in any of this, he need only table some written parliamentary questions. He could obtain answers to all of them without amending the Bill. This is absolute nonsense. The hon. Gentleman is prepared to wait eight months for answers that he could obtain in response to a written question.

[Mr Jones]

If the hon. Gentleman believes that it is possible to obtain all the answers that he requires by means of parliamentary questions, that demonstrates his naivety. Having been in the House for nearly 10 years and having, as a Minister, spent many hours trying to avoid answering parliamentary questions, I can only say “Good luck” to him.

Let me quote from the amendment—

[Mr Ward]

I have read it.

[Mr Jones]

Then let me remind the hon. Gentleman what it says. It refers to

“the Government’s analysis behind the rate and threshold chosen for the bank levy”—

we have not yet been given that analysis, a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East—and to

“the adequacy of the bank levy in the context of other reforms to the wider banking system”.

We have heard a good many statements on bank regulation and on how the bankers can be made to lend more responsibly, but if the hon. Gentleman thinks that he can obtain the information that he requires by means of parliamentary questions, he is a better man than I am.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

No, because otherwise some Ministers might not get them in their weekend boxes. Anyway, it is nonsense to say that the information could be obtained in that way.

[Mr Ward]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

With pleasure.

[Mr Ward]

Is the hon. Gentleman really not aware of the in-depth investigation conducted by the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee of the role of the banks and the contribution that they need to make to the economy?

[Mr Jones]

I am, but that is part of the scrutiny process, and so is this. If the hon. Gentleman is so interested in the banking levy and the effects of the Bill on his constituents, why does he not speak? At one point he was alone on the Liberal Democrat Benches. The Government Benches have been fairly deserted this evening: the poop deck of the Mary Celeste may have had more life in it. Members who support the proposal in the Bill should at least turn up to argue in favour of it. No doubt we will be receiving “Focus” leaflets from the Liberal Democrats—although after Thursday they may be called something different—describing how tough they have been in regulating the banking system, but it is clear that they have not.

The hon. Gentleman has until late tonight, and tomorrow, in which to contribute to the debate so that he can reproduce his contribution in his “Focus” leaflets ad nauseam, which I know the Liberal Democrats love doing. People will be able to learn about how he stood up for them against the bankers rather than just listening to the hollow words and rhetoric of the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister in the run-up to the general election. The beauty of being in government is that politicians can actually do things. I know it has come as a big shock to many Liberal Democrats that they are in a position of responsibility whereby they can actually affect the lives of ordinary people. [Interruption.] Yes, responsibility without influence, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) says from a sedentary position. As the Liberal Democrats are in government, they can follow through and make sure that the Bill deals with the people who were responsible for getting us into this mess three years ago. They also have an opportunity to tackle the excessive profits. I do not know what the average salary is in Bradford, but I am sure that £1 million is a lot of money to the people there. I know that in 1914, prior to the first world war, Bradford won the competition for being the place where the most Silver Ghosts were sold, because it was a rich mill town back then; I learned that from the predecessor of the hon. Member for Bradford East when I was working for him in a by-election many years ago. I doubt whether many Rolls-Royces are sold in Bradford nowadays, however, and the hon. Gentleman’s constituents can only dream of some of the bonuses he is supporting this afternoon.

[Mr Jones]

Yes. I do not particularly like giving opportunities to Liberal Democrats, but it would give them an opportunity to show that they have the teeth that the Liberal Democrat Cabinet Ministers claim they have got in this coalition, because they would be able to say to the Conservative part of the coalition that they want change—that they want, for example, to increase the levy or to make sure that the huge bonuses being paid are taxed in a different way, or to bring in regulation. Let us be honest about this, however: most Liberal Democrat Ministers have not got sharp teeth—unless they have been to the dentist in the last few weeks. In the next few days we will see the beginning of the demise of the Liberal Democrats, and, as it were, the extraction of their teeth. It will certainly be interesting to see how sharp their teeth are after Thursday.

The current Government’s bank levy should take the same amount as the Labour Government’s bank bonus measure raised, which was £3.5 billion.

[Mr Ward]

As repeating the same point time and again is not a problem in this Chamber, I will do what everybody else here does and repeat myself: £3.5 billion is a lot less than £10 billion, which will be the amount generated—£2.5 billion times four years—so to talk about it as a reduction is just silly.

[Mr Jones]

This is becoming a bit like bashing Bambi to death. The fact of the matter is that the hon. Gentleman is either being very obtuse or something else that I will not say. We are talking about £3.5 billion for each year, which would add up to more than what is being proposed. We are talking about four times £3.5 billion.

[Mr Jones]

Yes, £14 billion.

[Mr Ward]

rose—

[Mr Jones]

Yes, the hon. Gentleman can intervene again if he does not quite understand.

[Mr Ward]

The amount levied by the previous Government was stated very clearly to be a one-off that could not be repeated. Everybody knows that, so why cannot the hon. Gentleman admit it?

[Mr Jones]

That is because I have said that we should do it again. I am sorry if the hon. Gentleman does not get that. He might say that it is a one-off deal, but perhaps it is a bit like one of those once and only, one-off sales that we see on television that furniture companies have every other week. I am proposing that we repeat the levy and raise that £3.5 billion again. Does he get it now?

[Mr Ward]

Yes, I do get it. I see not only Bambi before me, but the ice that the hon. Gentleman is stood on.

[Mr Jones]

That was too subtle for me.

The important point was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East when he talked about what we would do with this money. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington said, if the levy is seen as a tax, it is a pretty meagre tax on the banks, as it raises a small amount of money. However, the question is still about what we then do with the money. We could put it into rebuilding the economy by investing in housing and the regional economy, as has been said. The Government have allocated £1.4 billion over the next three years to projects, which is two thirds less than the £1.4 billion that the previous Labour Government invested in regional development agencies per year. In regions such as mine, the north-east, companies and individuals have to bid for that money. A banking levy could come in very useful for the investment that is being put forward.

The problem with the Conservatives—the Liberal Democrats have gone along with this—is that they have this notion of “Public sector bad, private sector good.” What they have failed to realise in regions such as the north-east is that large-scale public expenditure cuts have a huge knock-on effect on the private sector. The unemployment level is already 10.2% in the north-east, whereas it was as low as 4% under the previous Labour Government. Durham university has done a study suggesting that if 45,000 to 50,000 public sector jobs in the north-east are cut, 20,000 jobs will actually go from the private sector. Regions such as mine had no responsibility for the mess, but those responsible for it could pay for some of that reinvestment and that could be done through the banking levy.