Commons Chamber

Thursday 19th June 2025

(began 3 days, 1 hour ago)

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None Portrait Q2. What steps he is taking to help restore chalk streams. (904685)
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Number two Mr Speaker.
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None Portrait Topical questions: Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
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**** Possible New Speaker ****

We have to go to topicals. Beddington ERF... Question one.
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None Portrait Q1. What steps she is taking to help increase prosecution rates for cases involving violence against women and girls. (904674)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****

Number one Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker with your permission I
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Lucy Powell Portrait Rt Hon Lucy Powell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Manchester Central, Labour )
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**** Possible New Speaker ****

Shadow leader. Will then leader of the give us the forthcoming business?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the forthcoming business? I shall. The business for the week commencing 23 June includes, Monday 23rd of June, general debate on Pride month. Tuesday 24th of June, Estimates Day, second allotted day. There will be debates on estimates related to the Department for education, the Department of health and social care, and the Ministry of Housing communities and local. Wednesday 25th of June, Estimates Day third allotted day, there will be debates on estimates relating to the Ministry of Justice, insofar as it relates to criminal justice.

The Minister of defence insofar as it relates to the remit of the National Armaments Director, and the Department for Transport. At 7 PM the house will be asked to complete all outstanding estimates. Thursday 26th of June, proceedings on misaligned appropriation followed by a general debate on Armed Forces Day. Friday 27th of June, the house will not be sitting. The provisional business for the week commencing 30th of June will include, Monday 30th of June, second reading of the deprivation of citizenship orders effect during appeal bill.

Tuesday first of July, second reading of the Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill. Wednesday second of July, consideration of Lord's message to the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill. By motion to approve the draft Armed Forces Act 2006, consideration order 2025. Thursday third of July, is to be determined by the Backbench Business Committee. Friday fourth of July, Private Members' Bills.
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Joy Morrissey Portrait Joy Morrissey MP (Beaconsfield, Conservative)
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Thank you Mr Speaker. I would like to start by congratulating the right honourable lady. This is now the third time I've had the pleasure of responding to her Business Questions. They have proved to be remarkably fruitful encounters. As of first encounter, I asked the Leader of the House to press the Chancellor to U-turn on Winter Fuel Payments. And the right honourable lady is clearly very influential because the U-turn on that shameful attack on pensioners came just a few weeks later.

At our second encounter, I asked the right honourable lady to get the government to U-turn on a national inquiry for the victims of the rape gangs. This week, the Prime Minister finally did the right thing and delivered a U-turn on that as well. The Prime Minister may be getting dizzy from all his you turning, but I congratulate the right honourable lady on listening to this side of the house, using her influence, and securing those U-turns.

Let me now turn to one of the most important tasks of any government, getting people into, and keeping them, in work. On this side of the House, we know that economic growth comes from the success of businesses and the risk-taking entrepreneurs. The party opposite have never understood that. We are now seeing it have disastrous consequences for our country. Unemployment reached record lows under the Conservative government. Labour governments are always incredibly successful at driving unemployment higher. This one seems determined to be the best ever at putting more and more people out of work.

Last week we saw the devastating impact of the Chancellor's reckless national insurance tax raid. Businesses warned her that the national insurance tax raid would cost jobs. They were right. The UK unemployment rate is now at its highest level since the pandemic. Job vacancies have collapsed. Last month there were 109,000 fewer employees on payroll. These are the direct result of a Chancellor and the government that do not understand business. But it is about to get a whole lot worse.

Businesses are clear that the Employment Rights Bill will cost more jobs. The U.K.'s leading business groups have collectively told the government it Employment Rights Bill will damage economic growth and jobs. The government giving people rights for jobs they simply won't have. The truth is this government is beholden to its union paymasters. It cannot listen to businesses. It is a government that has taken a time machine back to the employment nightmare of the 1970s. Where union barons gave Labour ministers their marching orders.

But whilst this government and the unions try and re-fight the battles of the 1970s, the world of work is changing at a rapid rate because of artificial intelligence. AI brings many benefits but it is also true that AI is a clear and present risk to the stability of our labour markets and to the livelihood of millions of people in this country. Despite its love of regulation in all other aspects of our life, this Labour government has yet again delayed its AI regulation.

So AI is developing unchecked and changing jobs in ways that will have a long- term impact. Businesses and workers grapple with the new reality of a 21st-century AI economy, but the government is determined to burden them with taxes and regulations from the last century. Would that Leader of the House use her considerable and proven influence to deliver U- turn on the Employment Rights Bill before it is too late? If not, will she grant us a debate in government time on the impact of that union inspired tax and regulation policies on businesses? Will that Leader of the House bring her party back to the 21st-century and grant us a debate in government time on how we address the role of AI in the future of work? The story of this Labour government and its economic policies is now clear.

If it moves, they tax it. If it doesn't move, they still tax it. If they can find a way, they sent unemployment higher. If businesses warned them that things will get worse, they don't listen. If the unions want something, they give it to them. This is a government fighting the battles of the 1970s and behaving like they are still student politicians. It is a government making the people of this country or, as each day passes.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Leader of the House. Thank you Mr Speaker. I know the
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Lucy Powell Portrait Rt Hon Lucy Powell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Manchester Central, Labour )
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**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you Mr Speaker. I know the whole house will be following the unfolding events in the Middle East carefully and with a great deal of carefully and with a great deal of concern. I want to assure the House that the government is working with our partners to urge de-escalation and diplomacy as well as continuing to engage very closely on the situation in Gaza for aid to get in and for a sustainable ceasefire. This week was the night anniversary of the murder of my and many other members dear friend, Jo Cox.

We remember this week everything that she stood for. Her values, her passion, her commitment to building bridges, dissolving conflict and international development. I sent my thoughts and I'm sure the thoughts of the whole House to her family this week. And of course to her dear younger sister, the member for Spen Valley, who I know Jo Cox would have been incredibly proud of especially in recent weeks. It is a pleasure once again to be joined by the honourable Lady who I have a great deal of respect for and enjoy working with.

I am sure she and I are happy to take whatever plaudits we can for these exchanges that we have a Business Questions because I know the Prime Minister and many others follow them incredibly closely. She is certainly an improvement on the normal exchanges that I have with the shadow leader who is not in his place today. Can I start by accepting her invitation to say a little bit about child exploitation which she raises. I certainly don't accept her characterisation of this is any kind of U-turn.

I think it is really important the tone that we take in these debates. I thank for doing that. In the midst of such unforgivable injustices, it is essential that we do actually come together across the House to lower the temperature put victims at the centre and their experiences. We have always said is a government that we would leave no stone unturned to uncover the truth, get justice for victims, and lock up the perpetrators. That is why the Prime Minister are commissioned Baroness Casey to review in the first place.

We have never ruled out returning to the issue of a national inquiry. We have always been guided by what would be the most effective way of getting the action truth Justice and accountability in the most effective way possible. Some of those measures included implementing the Jay Inquiry recommendations particularly around mandatory reporting. And also introducing new aggravated offences for grooming offenders. Both of which were included in the Crime and Policing Bill that we voted on last night.

I was actually quite surprised to see members opposite voting against that very bill that strengthened those issues. Perhaps they could reflect on that next time they come and criticise this side of they come and criticise this side of the House. She raises job creation and the economy. I'm happy to debate that issue with her. She did not mention the three unprecedented trade deals that we have secured. They were once the party of the trade deal. They were once the party of free trade, and these seemed to set themselves against the trade deals that are already securing jobs and investment.

That is why economic activity is at a record high since we came into government. It is why we have created since we entered office half a million new jobs moving people into employment. And real wages are growing more in the 10 months since July than they did in the 10 years of the party opposite. So we are happy to stand by our record on job creation and the economy will stop she talks about the Employment Rights Bill. I am sorry to say, that is absolutely not something that this government will be you turning on.

We are very proud of giving the biggest boost in a generation to workers of this country. It is about time too. We are giving them rights on sick pay, we are for the first time abolishing exploitative zero hours contracts, something that many people in this House have called for for a long time. We are introducing Fair Pay Agreements, and many other things in a bill that we are incredibly proud to be delivering for this country. Finally, I did just want to say this week of all weeks that Parliament has found itself at the centre of the national debate.

It is a place that I think we should always find ourselves. There are big issues at stake locally and here at home, which Members of Parliament from all sides have been grappling with and taking decisions to the best of our ability. Whether that is the conflict in the Middle East, publication of the Casey Report, vote on abortion and assisted dying, amongst other issues. I want to put on record my thanks to all those across the House who have approached these issues with the respectful nonpartisan tone that they deserved.

We are all elected to this place to make hard decisions, to represent our constituents with integrity and to work in their best interests. I know that every single member of this House takes this job incredibly seriously. Can I just say that I think we also have a duty to not slide into personalised over politicised click bait attacks on each other. If we are not careful, this undermine us all and the democracy as a whole. And threaten the safety of individuals.

I was disappointed to see that members of the shadow cabinet were doing just that this week. I hope they will reflect and withdraw some of those dangerous attacks that they launched this week. Particularly as we remember Jo Cox, we do have responsibility to take the heat out of the political debate. And to approach these difficult challenges with the thoughts and respect anti- ability that they deserve. I think the whole House will want to do the whole House will want to do
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Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank the leader for announcing the business next week and I hope the business next week and I hope she will use her good offices to make sure there are no government statements that day and you will have a very high bar for urgent questions because we have three debates each day and I hope that we will be able to get a good debate on each of those subjects. For the week commencing Thursday, 3 July, there will be a debate on a motion of financial redress the 1950s women impacted by DWP administration of State Pension, followed by a debate on mobile phone thefts which is one subject raised frequently in this chamber.

On Thursday, 10 July, there will be a debate on children's health, and we are waiting and acceptance of the other debate. In Westminster Hall, I understand that the sponsor of the debate was due to take place on Down syndrome and has withdrawn that application because no government minister was available to answer the debate and I hope you will use your good offices to make sure that that debate actually does happen for the benefit of the sponsor, and indeed, the subject. Next week in Westminster Hall on Tuesday, there will be a debate on the right to maintain contact in care settings.

On Thursday, there will be a debate on the role of the RAF reconnaissance unit during the Second World War followed by a debate on the BBC World Service. On Thursday, 6 July, the future of music education followed by safeguarding children with allergies at school, and the following week, on 8 July, a debate on alcohol and cancer which is a very topical subject. Thursday, victims of terrorism followed by a debate on London's contribution to the national economy. Not only are Saturday the longest day but it is also international yoga day.

And of course, we are giving MPs honourable members and right honourable members the opportunity to practice yoga this afternoon, so those in the chamber can come along to committee room 10. I guarantee to provide a place for everything, but that comes along so that we can practice yoga which is India's gift to the world and also very, very helpful in having a healthy life and a long life as well.
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Darren Jones Portrait Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Bristol North West, Labour)
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When this government came to power we were elected on a promise, to deliver a decade of national renewal. From day one we have worked to fulfil that promise. Less than one year into the job, we have already started to see the results. The fastest-growing economy in the G7 in the first quarter of the air. Cuts four times, and real wages rising more in the first 10 months of our government than they did in the first 10 years under the Conservatives.

But we are under no illusions about the challenges ahead and that we will be going further and faster. To turn the page on 14 years of chaos and mismanagement from the party opposite, and to deliver a decade of national renewal that we promised. That is the backdrop against which I present the strategy to the House today and I want to put on record my thanks to everyone whose input has helped to shape this document including the review I led an opposition which resulted in this strategy and the creation of the National in and service transformation authority on which I will say more shortly.

Infrastructure is key to unlocking growth across the country. Our roads, railways, airports and infrastructure connect people to businesses, public services, and one another. Our energy, water, and housing infrastructure create and support communities. And our schools, hospitals, prisons, and social infrastructure provide high quality public services and help to keep us safe stop but infrastructure means improved productivity and efficiency in our economy, to stop increased resiliency to public services, more jobs, and ultimately higher wages for working people. From the developing of the railways to the 2012 Olympic Games, we had a proud history in Britain of innovating, developing, and building this high quality infrastructure.

But the reality is that we have now fallen behind many of our international competitors. Too many investors now question our intentions and capabilities. When we say we will build something, they will often ask if we will and if we can. That is because, for too long the party opposite first -- cut capital investment. They left the capital investment. They left the public estate to crumble for 14 long years, from the roads we drive onto the schools we send our children to.

Waste of money, time, and effort, declining productivity and wages, stagnant growth, and an increasing belief that politics cannot change things for the better. But with this new government we will prove once again that change is possible. The spending review last week set out how our government is investing in the renewal of Britain. Allocating an additional £120 billion of capital investment is at the core of this Parliament also with new rail and road projects to connect cities and regions including £3.5 billion more for the TransPennine route upgrade to reduce journey times between Manchester and Leeds and benefiting communities along the train line.

We are investing in the next phase of the Midlands rail hub to strengthen connections between Birmingham and the wider Midlands to the south-west and Wales. And in Wales, we are investing £445 million into new rail projects in North and into new rail projects in North and South Wales over 10 years to connect cities, towns, and Manufacturing hubs. Two Labour governments working together for the people of Wales. And we will set out further details on our plans for northern powerhouse rail in the coming weeks.

But of course, it is not just transport, we are delivering the biggest rollout of nuclear power for half a century. With a £30 billion commitment to our nuclear power future. We are providing £39 billion for the affordable homes programme over the next decade. The biggest cash injection into social and affordable in 50 years. And we are backing British industry. With the pioneering work on carbon capture usage and storage including support with benefits felt across Scotland. The task before us now is to ensure that this investment is spent effectively and efficiently.

A real change in approach from the party opposite's time in government. And not only plan for the next five years but for the long term. This is the driving force behind the strategy today. Crucially, it is our hope that this long-term approach will give investors and businesses the confidence to invest in skills and their workforce, to hire more apprentices, to create more jobs and to improve wages in every part of the country. The strategy is by nature, thorough and detailed but I would like to draw attention to 5 key elements today.

First, we will provide certainty and stability through increased capital investment. We are committing to fund at least £725 billion for infrastructure over the next decade. Ensuring that infrastructure spending continues to grow in line with inflation after the current spending review period. At the spending review, we committed spending plans for each department until 2029/30 and to provide certainty and confidence in our plans we are confirming funding for the schools rebuilding programme funding to 2035 and the prison expansion programme to 2031.

But this long-term certainty needs to be translated into real jobs. In every part of the country. Ahead of the summer recess, we will publish a new online infrastructure pipeline. It will provide up-to-date information about what we will build, when we will build it and where we will build up. Given industry and investors the confidence they need to invest in highly skilled jobs in every part of the country. For the first time, we are bringing together economic infrastructure like transport, energy, and waste together with housing and infrastructure including schools and hospitals into one strategy.

In doing so, we will expect stakeholders to think more strategically about the communities they are creating and not just the specific piece of infrastructure they are building. For example, as part of our review of the Green book we have decided to pilot place-based dismiss cases which will ensure there is proper coordination between departments when bidding for funding from the Treasury. I know this will be a huge relief committees across the country who too often have relied on poor planning on infrastructure and community benefit.

This is the difference it makes to have Labour MPs who show up and listen and a Labour government that gets it. We are taking steps to address the maintenance backlog in public estate is now estimated at over £49 billion. I am today announcing a new maintenance fund to provide at least £9 billion per year over the next decade to improve public services and save money for the taxpayer. This includes at least £6 billion per year to maintain and repair hospitals so loved ones can get the best possible treatment when they need stop £600 million p.m.

For our courts and prisons so justice can be served. And almost £3 million for schools and colleges. By 2035 so that every young person gets the best start in life. We will average the private capital needed to deliver the strategy. That means matching capital to individual projects and using government debt and equity to invest alongside the private sector. We will work with industry to explore the targeted use of new public-private partnerships where the can be shown to deliver value for money for the taxpayer.

A new model will learn lessons from the past to secure value for money in the future. We have established the National in Jan service transformation authority. Based on the Treasury, the Minister brings oversight of infrastructure strategy together and integrates assurance, design, delivery assessment into Treasury spending decisions. It will ensure that the strategies implement it effectively across the whole country including through formal reviews of progress every two years aligned with the spending review cycle and it will work across government to provide expertise and support to delivering partners.

This tenure infrastructure strategy is a technical policy document and we will continue to work with businesses, investors, workers, trading and leaders to drive up ambition and improve delivery but the strategy is much more than that. Alongside our modern strategy will provide confidence and certainty in Britain as an investment destination and it establishes the framework needed to deliver the change in infrastructure investment announced by the Chancellor in the spending review last week. Done properly, it will result in tangible improvements to the fabric of our country.

Our local roads and high streets renewed, so communities are even better places to live and public transport more available and reliable making it easier for people to get around and access opportunities. Our schools and hospitals and GP surgeries, fit for the future to deliver for generations to come and a country that will be stronger and more resilient. Communities will see the difference as this Labour government delivers on the promise of change and a decade of national renewal and on that basis, I commend the statement to the House.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

I call the shadow Minister.
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None Portrait
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**** Possible New Speaker ****

I call the shadow Minister. Many thanks, may I thank the chief secretary for his statement and providing early sight of it. Our and providing early sight of it. Our ability to invest in public infrastructure is a positive for individuals, communities, and the country as a whole and it is right that the new government sets out its strategy. The last government had to deal with a series of economic disruptions including the impact of COVID, the unwinding of easing across all advanced economies, and the invasion of Ukraine by Russia.

The global impact of these will disrupt supply chains, increase inflation and raise interest rates. Notwithstanding the shots in the last government, public sector expenditure and capital increased in real terms from 81.7 billion in 2019, to 117, to 117.8 billion in 2025, a increase. The chief secretary has confirmed expenditure of billions but provided very little detail. There is no pipeline today, but will he commit to coming back to this House when it is published. In 2024, the last infrastructure pipeline analysis included an investment pipeline of 660 projects over a 10 year period commencing from 24/25.

The chief secretary's last statement of the House was in very large part a restatement of the investments in local transport and project that had already been announced by the previous Conservative government. Can issue secretary confirm how many of the 660 projects in the previous pipeline will be retained in this pipeline. Can he advise which major projects are being abandoned and some insight into his reasoning for doing so. Translating a pipeline into reality requires a labour force of sufficient size with a range of skills for example in construction, project management, and engineering and again, by the construction industry training Board, it was indicated that the project pipeline would create labour pressures and many of these skills areas.

Since coming to office, this Labour government has increased national insurance and is proposing new regulations on employment, both of which will disproportionately affect the construction sector. Does the chief secretary have any concerns about the impact of these changes and the availability of labour. And can you advise what assessment he has made of skills pinch points and what steps the government is taking to alleviate them. Fulfilling these plans will require investment by both taxpayers and private capital. Can the chief secretary advise the House if there has been any significant change in the mix of private and public investment within discrete sectors or overall compared to the last pipeline analysis in 2024.

The government created the National, said it was the centre of the government principal investor, a critical part of the government growth strategy and infrastructure. He gave £7 million but has made no mention of it today. Why is there no mention of the national wealth fund? We are moving through an era with a rapidly accelerating pace of change, where the period from innovation to technology can be vanishingly short. The risk of the public investment in new technology lotions will become redundant is increasing.

Whilst being forward-looking, the government should be careful to nurture existing technologies and new but proven technologies. Can the chief secretary advise what other priorities of the government for technology choices in the energy sector and what actions can you take to protect taxpayers from redundancy risk. The pensions schemes bill introduced by the government includes reserve power for the government to mandate pension schemes. Colour secretary advise whether he has had any discussions or had the Treasury to any analysis about the use of meditation powers to provide finance to capital investments he is announcing today? Can a secretary advise if a project today has been assessed on the revised Green book rules.

If not, will layout some point be reassessed on the revised basis and what assurance can you provide that these projects will be value for money to taxpayers? Has this guff -- as this covenant has stated, when pressures on public expenditure increase they can frequently be capital expenditure which suffers. I would like to ask the chief secretary if he can advise, what actions he is willing to take if finances are tight, to protect the budgets for tight, to protect the budgets for tight, to protect the budgets for The infrastructure benefits from a clear economic background, efficient delivery, and offers returns for taxpayers and investors.

I miss the old guys of the chief secretary. -- guise. There was less rhetoric and partisanship. These big decisions need open communication and critical analysis to improve value for money and get projects delivered on time and budget. The chief secretary always have our support on those matters.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

There were three of us on that committee in the good old days.
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Darren Jones Portrait Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Bristol North West, Labour)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****

committee in the good old days. I remember them very fondly. I'm grateful for your support and the grateful for your support and the support of the shadow chief secretary. I will take his questions in turn. Firstly, around detailed spending allocations between departments. We are making a commitment today around a minimum level, £735 billion over 10 years. Rising in line with inflation. -- $725 Billion. We've returned to these spending reviews and we have seen a difference in the allocation is done under the previous government with capital allocated at the departmental level and people to the subsequent 5-year allocations in 2027 at the next Spending Review.

The pipeline will be published in a couple of weeks, July. The reason for the small delay between the strategy and the pipeline is integrating the data from the Spending Review and that takes time. We have what in partnership with industry and skills providers and others to develop the pipeline and it will show on a map of the country which projects we are procuring, when, where, to give investors and businesses long-term confidence in available jobs so that they can invest in their own workforce.

The shadow chief secretary is right to highlight skills are part of the economy and we have strategy and the money from the Chancellor to work through the strategy with private sector partners to do all of the accounts and create great jobs in every part of the country to build infrastructure and we are setting that out today. He asked me about the role of private capital. There is a whole chapter on the role of private capital and the different mechanisms we use with private investors and as a commitment to use private capital and economic infrastructure where there is a revenue stream and the improved methodology for looking at these options and there will be for the work done between now and the Budget in the autumn on targeted potential applications for private capital for social infrastructure and crucially only pair that provides value for money in comparison to being funded by the state.

He asked me about the Green Book and the Green Book Review was published at the Spending Review and will be applied in a business case basis as the projects come through for spending approval. There's nothing in the strategy a deep rich pre-approves it and it will be applied to business cases as they come through the normal way. A couple of points where I was asked to explain the difference between this government and the last anti- put it simply, failed promises from the Conservative Party, promises delivered by the Labour Government.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

I welcome today's announcement and in particularly focus on housing and in particularly focus on housing and transport because Glasgow has a housing crisis and in my constituency, Glasgow East, the constituency, Glasgow East, the train station at Brixton does not have disabled access. -- Bridgeton. All taxpayers are concerned about value for money, particularly given value for money, particularly given the last government's overspend on HS2. In Scotland, the scandal of the
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Sarah Olney Portrait Sarah Olney MP (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat)
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Last week, the Liberal Democrats welcomed the announcement of investment in public infrastructure and transport projects which we have long called for. We are glad the government is setting out the 10 Year Infrastructure Plan and the Liberal Democrats will closely scrutinise it to ensure it delivers for communities across the UK. Boosting infrastructure is vital given the appalling mismanagement of the last government which left school and hospital buildings crumbling while neglecting critical infrastructure from transport, to renewable energy generation.

The plant today must drop a line in the sand under disaster risk management projects like HS2 but promised to connect the country and communities but ended up a hollow Conservative promise, long delayed, billions over budget. We welcome the intention to deliver productive investment but will closely scrutinise implementation. A big concern as ministers have been unable to answer questions on delegated funding from the structural fund, such as Hammersmith Bridge in my constituency. Have specific projects been selected fairly? Will they set up a task force for crumbling hospitals to identify greater funding ideas, speed up construction timelines, and the vicious cycle of false economies of delayed rebuilds leading to rising repair costs? We look carefully at the implementation of the plans and the government must make sure the workforce is equipped with the necessary skills to meet commitments and I would ask if the Minister agrees that it is time to replace the broken apprenticeship levy with a broader and more flexible skills and training levy? Will they fulfil the promise to make Skills England body with employment at its heart?
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Miatta Fahnbulleh Portrait Miatta Fahnbulleh MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Peckham, Labour )
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With permission, I wish to make a statement about the action we are taking to cut energy bills for working families. Three years on from the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which saw prices soaring, people up and down the country are feeling the impact of this. If he were I go in the job and every person I speak to, I hear how weight is produced to support families are swallowed up by skyhigh energy bills month after month. The truth is that for as long as we remain dependent on gas and volatile global markets, British people will continue to pay the price and we will continue to be held back as a country.

That is why we are ending exposure and vulnerability by sprinting to clean and affordable energy, controlled by us. We know that in the meantime we have got to do everything that we can to support families who are under huge amounts of pressure with energy bills. Today, we are setting out how we will help millions of households with bills by expanding the Warm Homes Discount. Around 2 million people previously received Of the Energy Bill but living in homes not classified as 'hard to keep' was difficult because the criteria introduced by the last government in 2022 and we believe they were unnecessary and unreliable and we believe it cannot be freer to and we believe it cannot be freer to With one receiving help and one not.

It's been repeatedly raised by consumers and advocates since changes were made and I understand the concern. This is why we are abolishing the restriction. This winter, every single household where the bill payer receives means tested benefit will be eligible for the discount which means a further 2.7 million low-income households will get this vital support. In total, more than 6 million households, one in five families in Britain, will get the help that they need this winter. This expansion will help the goal to tackle fuel poverty which is critical to the work of department.

It will increase the number of households that receive support with coverage improving from 30% under the current scheme to around 45%. In total, one in 6 million households will receive support. I have met people on the frontline of the crisis up and down the country and so I know for a fact that there are families out there right now who are breathing a sigh of relief because this will help to ease the huge amount of pressure that they are under with the cost of living.

One issue that is often raised as families can miss out on the discount because a person who receives means tested benefit is not named on the Energy Bill. In order to be eligible, the means tested recipient or partner needs to be named on the bill and so I encourage families who receive a means tested benefit to check this and, if necessary, contact the supplier. People must ensure the benefit recipient, partner, or appointees named before the qualifying date, August 24.

At the same time, we are going further to put the energy market back in the service of working people, taking steps to restore confidence and faith in the energy market that we now has been shaken. As it stands, we have too many complaints going on risotto taking too long to fix and suppliers are not responding quickly enough for failing to adjust direct debits when families use too much energy and this just is a situation where consumers do not access the compensation that they are entitled to due to an overly complex complaint system and the government is absolutely committed to standing up for consumers who have had a bad experience in the energy system and we are working hard to make sure the system works in the interest of consumers.

We've made real strides in improving conditions for customers following the intervention by the Secretary of State and months of property sector. We have £18.6 million of compensation for victims of forced prepaymentm is and will This government is willing to use every tool in our arsenal to fight for working people and by moving at speed to have clean power and setting out the biggest investment in clean energy and history, we will take back control of our energy system, we will do the job of protecting consumers and that is why we are wasting absolutely no time in driving forward our clean energy mission in our first year.

Ending onshore wind band, more than four gigawatts of energy, launching great British energy, funding a new golden era for nuclear, kickstarting carbon capture and hydrogen industries, investing 1 billion to upgrade up to 300,000 homes, and 13.2 billion committed in the spending review to upgrade millions. This is how we rebuild our energy network and protect families across the country. By supporting more people who need our help this winter, by restoring confidence in reformed energy market, and by bringing bills down for good with secure, reliable, clean energy.

We will ensure that every family, every family in this country has a security of a home they can afford to heat. Now and in the future. And I commend the

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statement to the House. I call a shadow Minister.

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I call a shadow Minister. May I thank the Minister for advanced sight of her statement on advanced sight of her statement on this, the warmest day of the air, what a delight it was to receive the warm homes discount update. May I warm homes discount update. May I take this moment to thank the take this moment to thank the Minister. I know that she is a tireless champion for the people of Peckham and for the most vulnerable Peckham and for the most vulnerable and I thank you for all of the work she does behind-the-scenes for those causes.

Exactly one year ago today, causes. Exactly one year ago today, the Chancellor said and I quote, great British energy, a publicly great British energy, a publicly owned energy company, will cut Energy Bill is by up to £300. And Energy Bill is by up to £300. And Bills have not fallen by £300, as
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Joy Morrissey Portrait Joy Morrissey MP (Beaconsfield, Conservative)
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was promised so many times by the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, the energy Secretary, and Labour MPs. In fact, bills have gone up. By almost £300. The opposite of what they were all promised just one year ago. On top of this, they took the Winter Fuel Payment from millions of pensioners through a cold winter. This announcement will provide support for soma. But it is nothing more than a sticking plaster for the fact that this government's energy policy is making people colder and poor.

The Minister has not said a single word about this expansion and how it will be paid for. This is a £400 million commitment and there was no detail in the press release, nor the Minister's statement about how it will be funded. Will the Warm Home Discount still be funded by levies on everyone's Energy Bill is? If so, this policy means that Energy Bill is will increase for the majority of bill payers get the Minister did not say this in his statement.

Can the Minister please inform the House whether she has asked her department to calculate how much levies on everyone's bills will increase by two pay for the 400 million of extra spending. If she has, will she tell the House so that all constituents know, how much their bills are going to be increased by under this Labour government. The government's press release said that the expansion of the scheme will be offset by efficiency savings across the energy system, but we have no detail about what those efficiencies are.

Or how much money will be saved. In fact, the system is becoming less efficient. It was recently said that the cost of balancing the grid by paying windfarms to switch off when it is too windy increased by 10%. Two, 2.7 billion PX, and they warned that this will triple to 8 billion. By 2030 as this government rushes to build more wind farms and solar farms and agricultural land than ever before. That is what this government is delivering. More subsidies, more levies, more payments for windfarms to switch off, more tech imported from China.

More costs to everyone's bills. Can the Minister share some proper detail with the House about exactly how much this will cost the British people? I suspect the answer will be people? I suspect the answer will be a resounding, no. This is a statement avoid of detail because it is simply designed to distract from the fact that this government's energy policy is in chaos and driving bills higher and higher. This is a government driven by ideology of net zero, not making Energy Bill slower for families across Britain.

It is a government of broken promises.
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Miatta Fahnbulleh Portrait Miatta Fahnbulleh MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Peckham, Labour )
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I think the honourable lady has some cheek given the last government's record on energy bills, where families across the country saw skyhigh energy bills under their watch, where families across the country are still paying the price of that today. The idea that they could sit there and try to lecture us on Energy Bill is rich. Let me take the questions directly. Yes we are committed to reducing energy bills by £300, we have passed legislation and great British energy and the institution is up and running.

We are doing the job of driving down bills and we stand by that commitment. The way we will deliver it is the investment in clean power. What was clear under their watch is that, ultimately, the reliance and dependence on global fossil fuel markets is what led to bills rising. We will not make that mistake which is why we are investing record levels in renewables and that is the way in which we will drive down costs to the system and drive down bills.

And let me pick up this point, this is not about ideology, this is about families across the country, the status quo is not tenable. We do not think it is acceptable to have bills at the levels they are and leave families with that. That is why we are taking action. On the specific question about how this will be paid for, we are very clear that the discount is paid for under the price discount is paid for under the price cap but we are clear that we do not see family bills increase to pay for this.

So we have worked with Ofgem, for example, looking for savings with supplier, operating costs, the debt allowance at the moment, debt spiked under the energy crisis, that means all households are paying a bit on debt allowance and we are working with Ofgem to get that debt burden down and we will use the savings to cover the cost of this. We are clear, support for those who need it, protection for all households.

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Can I welcome the statement from the Minister and can I say that I think the shadow Minister was right think the shadow Minister was right to highlight this was announced on the warmest day of the year, a government announcing a warm homes government announcing a warm homes plan literally to fix the roof while the sun is shining, as the party the sun is shining, as the party opposite failed to do. Nearly 3 million families benefiting, thousands no doubt in Hampshire and many in my constituency as well.

Can I ask the Minister firstly, around datasharing, one of the reasons why
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Miatta Fahnbulleh Portrait Miatta Fahnbulleh MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Peckham, Labour )
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Thank you to the honourable member, I could not agree more, the record of stops and starts on home upgrades and insulation is one of the reasons we failed to insulator as many households as we should have from energy price hike, we are committed to a long-term plan to upgrade millions of homes across the country, that is what the warm homes plan will do, we are delighted that this has been backed by the Chancellor with 13 point £13.2 billion of investment and we are working on how we roll it out across the country.

What I would say is, we will make sure that we have the right solution for every household and that the combination of insulation, solar, heat pumps, in order to make sure that every household that gets an upgrade has a home that is one and that is much cheaper to run and that is our focus and priority. On the future home standards, we have been working closely with colleagues in the Ministry of and communities, we have been consulting and working with valour pairs.

We are committed to driving forward the standards, we set out our ambition to make sure that future homes are fit for the future, with solar as well as cleaning solutions in homes that will be built, we cannot have the situation where we are building homes that we need to retrofit in a few years so we are committed to doing that and we will be setting out more details in the warm homes plan.
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Miatta Fahnbulleh Portrait Miatta Fahnbulleh MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Peckham, Labour )
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I commit to that. They are telling us to work to upgrade homes is ideological. It is not. It is bread and butter and are not willing to accept the status quo and reducing bills. Improving living standards is a core priority for the government, delivering the change we promise. Stoker the Minister is promise. Stoker the Minister is right. The Conservative Party left the country exposed to fossil fuel the country exposed to fossil fuel prices and wages are swallowed up by energy costs.

It is right we are sprinting to clean, home-grown sprinting to clean, home-grown energy as a long-term solution and the tensions in the Middle East demonstrate why this is so demonstrate why this is so important. We also have to support people right now. I welcome the fact hundred and 20,000 families across the South-West can benefit from health is winter. -- 220,000 people can benefit from help. They want a breathing room and want to live, not breathing room and want to live, not merely survive.

Will she set out some of the ways the government is targeting the cost of living crisis? Thank you to my honourable friend. He is absolutely right to talk about the cost of living and also right to point out the huge exposure we have to global fossil fuel markets and we are receiving tension and conflict in the Middle East. Energy security becomes so critical and so we will continue despite the naysayers on the other side to deliver clean power but while we do that, we are taking action to lift cost of living.

Whether it is expansion of the discount, free school meals, increasingly National Living Wage, action to rule out breakfast clubs, action to build record numbers of social housing, the Labour Government is committed to living standards. Not talking about it but getting on and delivering the change
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Diana Johnson Portrait Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)
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for the 22nd and 23 July and the final which is due to take place on 27 July. As members will be aware, 27 July. As members will be aware, section 172 of the licensing act empowers the Secretary of State to make such an order in recognition of events of exceptional national events of exceptional national events of exceptional national significance. The decision to lay this draft order follows a public consultation conducted by the Home Office earlier this year. A significant majority, 87% of respondents supported the proposed extension of licensing hours for the semifinals and 84% for the final should the home nations qualify.

Respondents also agreed with the Respondents also agreed with the proposed duration of the extension until 1 AM, and supported its application to both England and. There was also consensus that the There was also consensus that the extension should apply only to the sale of alcohol for consumption on sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises. This order will therefore allow licensed premises to therefore allow licensed premises to remain open until 1 AM without the need to submit a temporary event

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notice. Just to say that obviously, England and, we very much welcome that, and I wish to convey to the English and the Welsh ladies team all the best for going forward. It would apply to Northern Ireland but it won't stop us turning on at a different timescale with our clubs

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and restaurants. It's always good to see solidarity between the four nations, solidarity between the four nations, so I thank the honourable member for so I thank the honourable member for that courtesy and those good wishes that courtesy and those good wishes to the two women's team. Thank you to the two women's team. Thank you to the honourable member. I was just wanting to explain that the reason we had taken this order forwards is we had taken this order forwards is to reduce the administrative burden on both businesses and local authorities, saving time and resources for all involved.



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resources for all involved. I felt the need to ask what a semifinal or final was, but can I semifinal or final was, but can I also say that I welcome this statement today, and would she statement today, and would she recognise the entertainment industry by increasing these opening hours, by increasing these opening hours, and hopefully, if we get that far, the impact it will have on the communities that support it.

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communities that support it. Yes, and my honourable friend is just talking about the thing I want just talking about the thing I want to come onto next, which is about the hospitality's, particularly pubs and bars, who stand to benefit from this modest extension which would allow them to accommodate these high-profile fixtures, but I fully accept that the hospitality's has had a difficult time over the last few years and this is a helpful measure. So, it is right to acknowledge as well that police representatives have expressed some concerns regarding the potential for increased crime and disorder.

Whilst operational decisions on deployment and resourcing are matter for individual forces, I am confident that appropriate measures will be taken to mitigate any risks as has happened in similar cases. So, notably, there have been no significant incidents of large-scale disorder links to previous licensing extensions, which I think is testament to the professionalism of our police service to whom we own our thanks. I would also like to emphasise that this is a limited and proportionate thing to our extension.

It applies solely to the sale of alcohol on the premises after 11 PM. It does not extend to off-licences, supermarkets, or other premises licensed only for off sales. And before concluding, I wish to clarify one final point. If neither England nor Wales reach the semifinals, the proposed extension will not apply on the 22nd or 23rd of July. Similarly, if one or both teams reach the semifinals but do not progress to the final, normal licensing hours will apply on 27 July.

Members may also wish to be made aware that the honourable member for Wrexham is sponsoring a Private Member's Bill supported by the government which seeks to make such orders are subject to the negative resolution procedure in future, so that means it will be less time spent on the floor of the house having to agree this. Now, the bill has completed its Committee stage in the house, but it will not yet be enacted in time to apply to this summer's tournament, and hence the need for this order to be brought for the house today.

Should this order receive the support of the house as I hope and expect it well, it will reinforce the argument that it may not represent the most effective use of Parliamentary time. In conclusion, this order has been brought forward in recognition of the significant public interest in the forthcoming tournament, and in particular, the hopes and expectations around the England and steam, and on that note, I would like to take the opportunity to wish the players of both teams the very best of luck.

I am sure they will do themselves, their fans, and the nation's proud, and finally, I commend the order to the house.
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Andrew Snowden Portrait Mr Andrew Snowden MP (Fylde, Conservative)
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The question is as on the order paper. course delighted to support these temporary licence changes, as I'm sure members on all sides are. Although, to be fair, I don't think I would have much choice on this matter as if I ever stood at this despatch boxes and wanted more times for football, which my dad would probably disown me. These changes will extend licences by two hours for those who already have licences until 11 PM and apply England and for two qualifying teams in the UEFA cup, reaching a semifinal on the 27th or 23rd of July or the final on 27 July.

And there is no reason why we should doubt that they will reach that threshold because we are the defending champions of the women's UEFA cup after England's magnificent performance at the 2022 tournament, hosted here in the UK at Wembley. The finals saw a 21 victory, and of course, in football, it was made all the sweeter by beating the Germans. So, this is a fantastic time to support your local as well as your national. But it is also worth taking the time to note that since the autumn budget, the hospitality is sadly reporting a spike in the number of pub closures.

And it is no surprise that, as the Chancellor's radon pup custom at least 2 1/2 thousand pounds per full-time employee, with 60% of pub saying they had cut jobs and three quarters saying they had increased their prices as a direct result, so while thanks to these licences and changes, we might all be able to go to the pub a little longer, it is going to cost us a bit more for a pint and sadly for many, their local might not even be in business anymore.

So now, more than ever, we need to support our locals, like the 63 pubs that were nominated in my filed pub of the year competition. It was won by horses in Freckleton and I am sure the 2 g who run this cracking establishment will be delighted with the shout out from this despatch boxes so that they will have some more time to sell some points, so it leaves me to finish by wishing the England and Wales teams good luck, but of course, I am biased and hope to be raising a glass to England once again trashing Germany.



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Just before I call, it would be remiss of me to mention my own
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Ben Maguire Portrait Ben Maguire MP (North Cornwall, Liberal Democrat)
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remiss of me to mention my own football club. I feel that was missing out there. I called the

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LibDem spokesperson. England's lioness is have a brilliant track record and not just brilliant track record and not just on the pitch. They continue to enhance, change attitudes and have redefined what women's sport looks redefined what women's sport looks like in this country. From the like in this country. From the historic Euro 2022 when to reaching the World Cup final last year, they have sparked a cultural shift that has touched every community has touched every community including minor North Cornwall.

In towns and villages across Cornwall, you will find women lacing up their boots, taking to the pitch and building the next chapter of the building the next chapter of the Countless women's teams are part of Countless women's teams are part of Countless women's teams are part of a growing movement to put women's teams on the same footing as men's. I cannot stress how important our national team and local grassroots national team and local grassroots sides are to inspire girls to dream big.

When girls see the Lionesses celebrated on the same scale as the celebrated on the same scale as the men's team, it sends a clear message, this game is for you too, and you belong here. That is why this licensing change really this licensing change really matters. It might seem technical but it carries symbolic weight. It will also have a really positive impact also have a really positive impact on our hospitality industry, at a time and it is really struggling with increase in National Insurance and BPR changes.

It tells the country that women's football deserves the same celebration, the same energy, and the same place in our national life as the men's game. That visibility alone is not enough. At school level, where a lot of the passion starts and a lifelong love of the beautiful game is ignited, only around two thirds of girls get the chance to play football during physical education lessons. We Liberal Democrats believe that every young person should get at least two hours of quality physical education a week backed by proper facilities and the right funding.

We also need to ensure that grassroots clubs at those in North Cornwall and across the country have a coaching, resources, and safe spaces they need to thrive. I have seen the appetite in our local communities first hand. We just need to match it with the support. The Karen Carney review in 2023 offered a roadmap for long-term progress. But progress must also mean equitably and treating women sport not as an add-on but an essential part of the country's culture. Collectively I'm sure that all members of this House will join me in getting behind the team's in our villages, towns, cities, and schools.

Encouraging the future of women's football to be written on school fields and local pitches by the next generation. I would like to take the opportunity to wish both Wales and England the very best of luck for the tournament. Thank you.

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The question is as on the Order Paper. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary, say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We go on to the next set of have it. We go on to the next set of business. If colleagues are exiting they should exit very quickly and they should exit very quickly and quietly. We now come to the backbench debate on incontinence.

Sonia Cumart will speak for 15 minutes.

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minutes. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I
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Sonia Kumar Portrait Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)
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in some communities it still is. Once mental health was a Tipu, and Once mental health was a Tipu, and people covered it up. We now can discuss these things more openly without embarrassment. We can seek without embarrassment. We can seek the right medical advice and we can offer support to one another and offer support to one another and fight for decent healthcare for every aspect of the human body. How did I get here in this chamber did I get here in this chamber talking about human bodily functions? This has been a journey functions? This has been a journey for me.

I spoke in the Westminster Hall debates on women's for in Hall debates on women's for in February. As a physiotherapist, I talked about pelvic health and the importance of rehabilitation and importance of rehabilitation and pelvic exercises. And my words seem to have struck a chord. Colleagues, residents, and professionals all residents, and professionals all emailing me thanking me for speaking out. And sharing their experiences. It started a snowball. I ask myself, It started a snowball. I ask myself, why aren't we talking about this more? I am advised that this is the more? I am advised that this is the first ever general debate on this topic in this chamber, so I topic in this chamber, so I congratulate the House today.

What are we actually talking about? We are talking about the involuntary loss of faeces and urine which can be caused by pregnancy, illogical conditions, MS, and spinal-cord surgery, musculoskeletal conditions, disabilities, menopause, and prostate -related conditions, and many more. The crippling fear for patients as it might happen at work, in public, or in a social setting. I have spoken to patients who have told me they feel like a prisoner in their own home, caught by a condition that means people avoid each other, don't go out, can't go to work, don't have relationships, and they feel a crushing sense of shame.

For those people with mental health issues, goes beyond the point to serious illness. Our language reflects society's attitude, wetting your knickers, peeing your pants. Or rude alternatives which I will not say today. We are talking about a range of conditions that affect millions of residents. Did you know, bladder and bowel incontinence is more common than hayfever? The NHS estimates that 14 million people are living with bladder problems. It is men as well as women. The NHS says that 2 million men experience in voluntary loss of urine.

One third of women are living with these conditions right now. That is right, one third. Yet this is another aspect of health woefully unsupported and pushed off the agenda. It affects 1.5 million children and people. One in 12 children across the UK are battling this debilitating symptoms including bedwetting, chronic constipation and soiling. Half a million adults have bowel conditions leading to voluntary loss of faeces. We have a population which is getting older, surviving complex conditions such as cancer, and this will lead to an increased prevalence of bladder and bowel dysfunction.

We are talking about in voluntary loss of faecal matter which can be because of IBS, Crohn's disease or other conditions like bowel cancer. I have not even touched on what people suffer when they have double incontinence. Our NHS collect data on anything and everything. Yet the number of patients with incontinence care needs to be routinely published and it is not. So my first task of the Minister, and I have several, is why not? The house will note I'm avoiding the term incontinence and continence.

Notwithstanding the title of today's debate, I have spoken to so many people with bladder and bowel conditions. My feeling is that it is the wrong word to use and it carries too much stigma. To give justice to this debate I have carried out roundtables with experts, with patients, and shed anonymous surveys. I spoke to Dawn who shared her story was noted some urine leakage 10 years ago when she was 50. And now the age of 60, she spoke to me about her journey.

She did not go to a GP, she felt ashamed. It's got worse, she began to see the gynaecologist. She got the strength to speak to the GP who gave her tablets. Three rounds of tablets of not working and the symptoms getting worse, leakage and she was not able to leave the house. Gynaecologists referred to physiotherapist and specialist nurses. And I asked, what went wrong here? Lack of prevention. Prevention, prevention, prevention is key. Physiotherapy is recommended as part of an integral part of women's healthcare, and especially women's healthcare, and especially when pelvic dysfunction.

It is the best way of treating mild to moderate incontinence and prolapse according to the 2019 NHS Long Term Plan. Insufficient physiotherapist numbers means women who experienced pelvic floor disruption, weight or miss out entirely. They often end up with surgery that could have been avoided with early intervention. Dawn eventually received specialist care and her symptoms are vastly improved. She only gets the odd leakage here and there. Her advice to others is, see your GP, don't leave it, and ask for referral to see a specialist.

I had the privilege to see such a specialist service in my constituency. Dudley Adult Bladder And Bowel service. And I met clinical pelvic health physiotherapist who shared the story. It was eye-opening to patients told me that they want to see the GP but they only talk about bowels and seldom bladders. A patient told me she felt ignored, fobbed off, and misdirected. One felt like she was a prisoner. Patients felt like a bouncing ball across different parts of the system.

How men were reluctant to seek self-help groups especially those with prostate cancer. How many men did not even know they had a pelvic floor and leave it as early women. But the symptoms can be easily treated, and with the right intervention, and the right course of rehabilitation. Research shows that every 1 pound spent on women's health services, there is a return of £13 thanks to a reduction in emergency services use, and better long-term health outcomes. I know the Department for Health is currently consulting on a men's health strategy, I trust the Minister ensure this aspect of men's health is front and centre.

The service I quoted calls itself a Cinderella service. The testimony of patients is humbling to hear but it makes me so angry. You're letting too many people down. What must change? We need to talk about the taboos. And we need action. A renaissance of public toilets, maintaining the ones that we have, opening the ones that are closed, building new ones. ICBs in both building new ones. ICBs in both men's and women's toilets, I support the boys that need bins campaign by Prostate Cancer UK.

I congratulate the APPG for bladder and bowel incontinence for their work. And I ask Mr Speaker that if this place could be a pioneer to place bins in all men's toilets. We also need better labelling of fibres listed on products to people understand how they can get better bowel health. And ensuring the AI robotics revolution in healthcare does not miss bladder and bowel care. We need a joint service between GPs, hospitals, clinics, and patient groups. Perhaps more sympathetically, more subtlety in healthcare setting.

Products provided outside healthcare settings could have simple labels with shelves such as bodycare instead of incontinence products. It tackles the embarrassment of being seen by a friend or neighbour in the shops. I urge the Minister, as the 10 year plan's publication, to ensure that bladder and bowel care is in this plan. So much needs to be changed, but today I have five asks of the Minister. Firstly, we need public health information campaign, to raise awareness and smash the stigma. Recommendation from Dr Sara Webb, the Royal College of Midwives, the NHS spends millions on campaigns such as cancer screening, the use of 111, sepsis, and quite rightly too.

Can the minister commits to campaign

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on bladder and bowel care? I'm happy to give way. Many years ago when I worked in

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Many years ago when I worked in the NHS, the board tried to save money by changing incontinence money by changing incontinence products that people use. Its products were not quite the same and products were not quite the same and caused a lot of distress to people who use them and also a lot of inconvenience for the health professionals working with patients but particularly with the district but particularly with the district nurse team. In the end it did not really save any money.

Does my honourable Friend agree with me that it is important people get access to the products that work for them?

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the products that work for them? I would like to thank my honourable friend. I agree products needs to be readily available, and it is one of my recommendations. it is one of my recommendations. Secondly, beyond awareness is prevention. We need real prevention. We need real understanding of bladder and bowel health and having it as part of the health and having it as part of the school syllabus. Recommendation from a surgeon, Dr Robinson from the Royal College of obstetrics and Royal College of obstetrics and gynaecology, wants it to be part of the training of all health the training of all health professionals so that the medical profession understand bladder and bowel care from the earliest time in bowel care from the earliest time in the job.

We need a specialist workforce and physiotherapist, nurses and surgeons and many more. Can the Minister commits to placing this high on the agenda for schools and build specialist MDT workforce who will build skills and knowledge of the future? Thirdly, we need enhanced R&D to bladder and bowel conditions and the treatment. It does not necessarily mean fast increasing the spending but viewing how current resources can be better prioritised. We can't diagnose treatment or look for future medical interventions if we have inadequate research.

Fourthly, the recommendation from a doctor, the chair of the Jewish Society of gynaecology, can the Minister commits to ban misleading advertisement which gives the wrong message to people? There are products with no regulation and patients are told to live with their symptoms. Fifthly, recommendation from a patient to I met, Leanne, a one-stop shop where all services under one roof, and care is closer to home. And products from shops are cheaper, and are exempt of VAT if they are purchased for personal use or use by registered charities.

What if they are purchased by care home? Five demands, five things that will show real progress backed by experts. I look forward to the Minister's response. Lastly, let me say this to men, women, and young children, young people who are listening. You are not alone, and there is no shame. People are often surrounded by silent that people don't want to talk about, and the NHS does not do enough about. This NHS does not do enough about. This
14:01
John Cooper Portrait John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)
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The question is is on the order paper. person or sex and it is male incontinence that I rise to speak about the riled joke is that men didn't know they had a prostate until the other half read about it in the daily mail. Campaigning newspapers such as the mail and charity groups such as prostate buddies in my constituency have done a power of work to make men aware of prostate disease and prostate cancer. Just as well when prostate cancer is the most common version of the disease in May.

One in eight of us will be diagnosed raising to one in four in black men. It is well recognised that early diagnosis is key of course, but it is less well- known that as many as 60% of those treated with surgery will face urinary incontinence. Prostate Cancer UK say that on average, one in 25 men aged over 40 will experience some form of urinary leakage each year. The scale of the issue and people facing the problem report feeling shame, embarrassment and isolation.

The good news then is that far from being alone, people suffering incontinence are actually part of a very large portion of society. But it has been another silent epidemic with people left to suffer in obscurity, but today, and I congratulate the honourable member for Dudley on securing this debate, is part of the solution to that. Given her medical background, I would defer to the honourable member for advice on what can be done to relieve the physical symptoms, and mass can be done with better prostate treatments cutting the number of men suffering after treatment.

Pelvic floor exercises can help men and women, as can bladder training, but what can government do? Aside from health policy and treatment for incompetence, male, female, postop, or childbirth -related, small steps can help. When asked by the honourable man before Cheadle for disposal of the sanitary were made necessary by incontinence, a DEFRA minister gave a very technocratic answer. She did promise a workplace regulation dated back to 1992 regarding provision of facilities and workplace toilets in due course.

I do hope we might have confirmation that this consultation can now be fast tracked. Regardless, I hope we have taken a strike by stripping away some of the stigma by giving an airing to this incontinence issue. There has been much talk recently about Parliament at its best surely this is the place at the best. Giving critical issues. Today, we believe some of the myths that this condition is somehow shameful and with this for ever debate, we take a modest but significant step towards improving the lives of those who struggle with the burden of incontinence.



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I was grateful, and may I thank my honourable friend for securing
14:05
Ben Coleman Portrait Ben Coleman MP (Chelsea and Fulham, Labour)
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my honourable friend for securing this extremely important debate, and this is the first full debate on this area, and it is tremendous that we are talking about it, and it is a subject that we need to recognise, despite the fact that bladder and bowel control issues, I will try to use that but instead of incontinence, throughout my remarks and despite the fact that bladder and bowel control issues have been treated as an embarrassment, and I was very struck by what my friend said about the number of people crying out for the subject to be raised in disgust and for us to take action, and we need to take action because it is not just an issue but a social justice issue.

At the moment, far too many people are facing a daily struggle which has been quietly ignored, and as has been touched upon, it is estimated that one in three women in the UK experiences urinary control issues, but crucially, men should speak in this debate as well, and I am very pleased that my honourable friend the member for Dumfries and Galloway have spoken because it affects men to, and in the City of London, we found that 54% of all male Londoners had experienced urinary control problems.

And more than one in four men, 28%, experienced symptoms early. It contradicts the widely held view that it only affects older adults, and of course, we come to bowel incontinence matters closely associated with age. 15% of those over 85 are affected, and it is even higher for men and women in nursing homes. And of course, we have to think about bladder and bowel conditions affecting children and young people, and especially those with disabilities whose voices often the last to be heard anyway, and particularly the last to be heard on this matter.

Other children are missing out on friendship, on an ordinary life because of a lack of basic vision. And we have a situation where families feel ashamed because they think no one else is facing the same thing, and it comes back to us discussing this matter in the house today because many families are facing the same issue and we need to make it safe to talk about this and safe to ask for support. So, bladder and bowel conditions are an issue, and it is very important to recognise that when we talk about it, it is not what happens now.

Despite the human cost and the prevalence of these conditions across this, services remain inadequate. And those affected have to scramble for help. They enjoy isolation, and the member for Dudley set out the fact there are simple straightforward solutions which would make a huge difference to those with bladder and bowel control issues, and we can start as has been said recently. As a national level, we need a campaign led by the Department of Health makes it clear that these things are normal and treatable and nothing to be ashamed of.

One of the few people I had talk about these conditions when I went to a meeting with my colleagues on all side on assisted dying, and I heard from a disabled member of the House of Lords and other people who are disabled and they spoke in a very matter-of-fact way about being incontinent. They made it quite clear that it was personally possible to lead a fulfilling life that with the case, but when I was growing up, people would say to me the one thing I dread above all things being incontinent.

I was very inspiring for me to hear the member and the other place talking about their own situation and realising that by talking about it, it was a release in all of us in terms of assisted dying. But coming back, I had the mention of prostate cancers UK and there are other things like the incontinence products. These things show what is possible and they need more support. Alongside public health campaign, let's have more investment on infrastructure. It means will have clean, safe, disposable facilities for men as well as women.

And in schools. We need to make sure that every school, mainstream schools as well as specialist schools should have trained staff who can support children with bladder and bowel conditions, not as an afterthought as part of their core care. And if I may, I know I have the Minister for public help, but I hope they can make sure that school toilets are accessible, hygienic and conclusive with dignity built in. And finally, I would like to CS integrate bladder and bowel care into national health strategies.

They should be a core part of NHS England's work in terms of preventative care, not an afterthought, and I look forward to that being reflected in the 10 year plan. I look forward that being reflected in the forthcoming men's health strategy. Better bladder and bowel care will save men and women and their families from stress and save children from shame and being left behind, and wonderfully, as has been said, it will save public money, so it is a public good and it will pay a huge difference if we take this seriously for a lot of people's lives, so let's do right by every person living with these conditions you have been living in

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silence for too long. Order. There are a significant

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Order. There are a significant number of members who want to take part in the following debate. We are part in the following debate. We are playing beat the clock. I'm not going to have a rigid time limit at this stage, but if members could this stage, but if members could confine their speeches to not more than six minutes, then I think we should get everybody in and give
14:12
Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
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adequate time.

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It is a pleasure to see you there

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It is a pleasure to see you there again. As the spokesperson, I want to thank the honourable member for to thank the honourable member for setting the scene so incredibly well. The accessibility and quality well. The accessibility and quality has estimated half a million people in Northern Ireland with bladder in Northern Ireland with bladder control problems, and some quarter control problems, and some quarter of a million. The population is 1.59 of a million. The population is 1.59 million, and it is estimated that the 91% of men experienced urinary track issues.

I commend the member track issues. I commend the member from Galloway for focusing on this from Galloway for focusing on this because most people don't really want to speak about or think about this. It was properly the wife that this. It was properly the wife that said you have a pain somewhere you have to speak about it, and this debate has been raising awareness. debate has been raising awareness. debate has been raising awareness. It is not a topic that people want to look at because people feel uncomfortable discussing their symptoms and their problems, and given the personal nature of the issue, I feel it had uncomfortable as well, and as a result, we look at being a healthcare professional.

Those affected go on to seek treatment, even though they don't recognise that services can be a significant thing in isolation. Honourable members will feel uneasy about these issues, so therefore, they will withdraw it themselves and seek to deal with the problems of those who have a normal life. We need to do more to alleviate feelings of shame for incontinence issues and business by having a public conversation, so I'm very thankful that my local council provide sanitary bins and accessible toilets across the borough, including some male toilets.

These bins are part of a wider initiative to make public toilets more inclusive, particularly for individuals with stoma needs because part of the debate that we have today is those with stoma needs, and it is surprising how many people have it and how they managed to deal with it. It isn't easy. It is probably one of those things that will scare the wits out of you. It does for me. And even when we look at those experiences, they have the problem as well, and the council has upgraded some 44 accessible toilets with shelves, hooks, mirrors, bins with shelves, hooks, mirrors, bins My counsel has done that already.

And councils addressing the need for sanitary products in all toilets where they are not currently a legal requirement. My counsel have already done that. And they have recognised that. They did this at their own cost on their own initiative, not because they legally had to because they recognise the need. This helps to address the stigma. This must be a UK wide view and not individuals deciding to do that. We recognise that the council did it because it was the right thing to do not because they had to.

One in five people affected by these issues, and yet it is good that it is spoken of with the compassion and understanding and carefulness of what this debate tries to deliver. Inadequate management of incontinence can lead to escalating costs due to unnecessary hospitalisation. These are the side effects. It is good to see the Minister in place, the Minister always responds very helpfully with questions that people ask. And unless, one in 10 children suffer from incontinence and it is an issue the honourable gentleman referred to one that cannot be ignored.

Unless treated, whether bedwetting, daytime wetting, one in 10 children will suffer from this as well. It is an issue that cannot be ignored. As was mentioned, including catheter care, an A&E intendant and hospital admissions, the sickness prevention. But this is something the government can commit to implement in with a coordinated strategy? I know these cannot be done immediately but I believe it is important that we dispel the darkness of shame for those who feel isolated and in the shadows.

Today the honourable Lady and others, I agree with them that

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this is a firm step I look forward to participating further. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I
14:18
Markus Campbell-Savours Portrait Markus Campbell-Savours MP (Penrith and Solway, Labour)
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Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank my honourable friend for bringing this issue to the House for bringing this issue to the House for debate. Unlike the member for Dudley I'm not experienced health professional, so I will narrow my condition to the issue of toilets, availability, and importance to those with incontinence. There are people who did not go out last week who may not go out today or next week. Those whose trips are always challenged by the lack of, or uncertainty, about the availability of public toilets.

Not just those who are incontinent those who experience any sort of urgency for those with irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's disease or colitis. Those who need to use the toilet more frequently because of age or pregnancy, or because they are menstruating. Those who have prostate cancer, stoners or other disabilities. And those who are caring for those with disabilities. There are very few of us who at some point during our lives will not be affected by these on abilities. We want our country to be one in which we are able to ensure that dignity and the ability for those visiting public spaces to have access to public toilets.

Local authorities have powers to provide public toilets but no statutory duty to do so. This lack of compulsion has contributed to the decline in the number of public conveniences. As a former local councillor, I know how stretched local authority budgets are. Decimated through a long decade of austerity, and the political decisions to centralise funding. In my constituency which encompasses the Lake District National Park, we are of course very aware of the importance of good quality public toilets to support tourism.

Yet even there, the prime visitor sites such as the railway path, fantastic facility for those with disabilities to enjoy the Lake District, but there is insufficient money to provide public toilets. Just two years ago, this house considered appointing a commission for public conveniences. And making it a statutory duty for local authorities to have public convenience plans. I'm not sure why something so simple would require a commissioner. But like so many plans under the last government it never came to pass.

I would like to ask this new government to look again at establishing a statutory requirement on local authorities. In the meantime I invite honourable members across the house to look at their own local authorities to ensure they create, review, and scrutinise public convenience plans. That they make public spaces accessible to those who know public toilets of quality of the difference between inclusion and exclusion. A recent survey by the Association for Public Service Excellent found that over one third of local authorities had reduced the provision of public toilets in the last decade.

We know that provision had been declining even before then. It is not all bad news. Half of the councils that responded to the 2024 survey did provide changing places for toilets. I would like to congratulate the campaigning organisation, Changing Places which has lobbied so long and so hard to seek provision for the quarter of a million people in the UK and their families and carers, who have for so long been condemned to being at home by the lack of accessible public toilet facilities.

accessible public toilet facilities. Their latest campaign will be instrumental in the 2021 Building Regulations requiring all new public buildings to put in large and well- equipped toilet facilities. Many local authorities have ensured provision created in economical ways. With community toilet schemes and with payments and rates reductions for businesses that open their toilet facilities from the public. They can make planning permission, and premise licences subject to the provision of public toilets. They can handover to community operators.

These are not always suitable or appropriate substitutes for standard public toilets provided and maintained by the local authority but as part of a portfolio of provision that do help portfolio of provision that do help increase access and often help circumnavigate some of the issues of graffiti and inappropriate use that present problems for some communities. I urge all honourable members in this House to engage the local authorities. To impress upon them how important it is that our public are adequately provided with high maintained and quality facilities.

And I look to members to join me in calling this government to draw up statutory measures. Public toilets that support the most honourable people in our communities should be a duty not an option.

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Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I would like to congratulate my friend, my honourable friend from friend, my honourable friend from Dudley for securing this important debate. I have recently become the debate. I have recently become the chair of the APPG for bowel and bladder continence care. There is much to be done. From the background much to be done. From the background of early years, and as I'm sure any parents of young child will confirm, we are probably the people who talk about wee and poo the most in this about wee and poo the most in this one.

They tell us vital information from the earliest day of having a from the earliest day of having a baby. It is crucial, and bladder function is one of the signs of good health. And maintaining that through health. And maintaining that through adult needs with the prevention of incontinence. The importance of incontinence. The importance of talking about this cannot be understated. As any three year old understated. As any three year old will tell you, it is because it is funny. Wee and poo Other funniest topics in nursery classes up and topics in nursery classes up and down the country and it is funny until the point it isn't.

When it until the point it isn't. When it stops being funny is devastating, it impacts on people's mental and physical health and on their dignity and independence. In some cases, it
14:25
Jodie Gosling Portrait Jodie Gosling MP (Nuneaton, Labour)
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can prove fatal. It is entirely preventable. Sadly, it is not funny preventable. Sadly, it is not funny for around 14 million people who have continence and incontinence issues. This figure alone hides some issues. This figure alone hides some of the issues with dealing with the enormous range of health conditions which result in the field of which result in the field of continence. The 14 million is based on data in 2018 and no recent data is available. Continence status is is available.

Continence status is not recorded as standard on entering the NHS. The scale of the problem is simply unquantifiable, and that NICE simply unquantifiable, and that NICE guidelines have not been reviewed. The findings of the incontinence The findings of the incontinence report from 2017 have not be fully implanted. We need a stronger mandate and a greater focus on mandate and a greater focus on training for incontinence needs with health visiting teams, and literally health visiting teams, and literally cradle to grave. And we need to be providing this care in our providing this care in our communities to avoid the need for crisis intervention in A&E.

Today I will highlight a couple of complications in failing to provide a robust continence service. Despite a robust continence service. Despite spending a large amount of my time surrounded by it, and occasionally surrounded by it, and occasionally covered in, poo and wee, I did not arrive in Parliament intending to take on this role. I've been made aware for many years about the woeful lack of help for those with constant issues, around poverty caused by buying products, and I have faced the frustration of parents with no continence service in Warwickshire at all until May 2024.

I have been aware of parents especially those with children with SEND trauma of attending A&E with children with constipation and reaching agonising and dangerous levels. It was a story from levels. It was a story from constituents who motivated me to campaign to prevent the worst impact of continence issues. There are so many simple things that can be done to protect dignity and independence, and improve the quality of life for 14 million people. When Ivan arrived at A&E, he was screaming and in pain, he was severely underweight for his age.

He had spent months in pain and attending A&E, around four times a week. He was discharged without treatment. His mother did not move, she did not accept the shocking assessment from consultants that disabled children just screamed. She pushed back, and with sheer luck, one of Ivan's other consultants happened to see them and made the instructions for the X-ray. The final day they evacuated nearly The final day they evacuated nearly 2 kg of stuff from 10 kg child. Melissa believes that they saved his life and others have not been so lucky.

In 2019, 19 people with learning difficulties died from constipation, under continence care, and out of all the depth of learning difficulties, around one quarter also suffering from constipation. It would be worthy of note. Unsurprisingly we don't even hold data for the wider population on these issues. Continence and constipation issues are increasing in a younger population at a worrying rate. And especially the strong correlation between constipation and continence issues and neurodiversity. One in four of our children who start school are not yet ready to use a toilet independently.

On average, 2.4 hours of learning time is lost every day supporting children going to the toilet. Toileting issues even in nursery cause embarrassment, anxiety, and leads to functional constipation damaging the bowel and causing lifelong issues. Getting it right from the start is hugely important. Children with continence issues are often excluded from school activities, parents required to take time off school, and consequently Eric, the charity, specialising in supporting children with continence issues, you are here today. They note that in the 1980s, 83% of babies were out of nappies by 18 months.

New research identifies the benefits of children who start potty training earlier and are out of nappies. But the health visiting team numbers are a disgrace for all time low, and outdated NICE guidelines means the message is not going through the parents simply don't know where to turn for the right support. Especially in places like Warwickshire where incontinence care simply unavailable. Hospital admissions for childhood continence issues have increased by 60% in over a decade, with 44,000 children admitted this year.

The decimation of health visiting numbers, school nurses, the definition of institutions like Sure Start leaves carers and families without infrastructure and support needed to help children train to toilet independently and constipation be recognised for it becomes life- threatening. Increased data collection is essential and we need to move to a stage whereby the NICE guidelines are heavily mandated or reviewed and supported into healthcare so that we can make savings in crisis teams. If we thoroughly intend to move from care to community, and crisis to prevention, continence care has to

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be a central focus. I would like to thank my
14:30
Warinder Juss Portrait Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West, Labour)
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I would like to thank my neighbour and honourable Friend, the member for Dudley, for securing this member for Dudley, for securing this important debate and for attempting to remove the stigma and silence There are over 40 million people in the UK who experience bladder leakage. There are more than 6 1/2 million, around one in 10, who struggle with bowel control. They those figures are probably not a true reflection of the reality is many individuals choose not to disclose their symptoms due to embarrassment or the mistaken belief that incontinence is simply an inevitable part of ageing.

I want to talk a bit about how women suffering from incontinence had been treated in the past. Because we then need to look at how we need to be looking at proper treatment options for the future. We need to focus on treatment options available to those living with incontinence. For far too long, vaginal mesh surgery was widely accepted as the so-called gold standard to treat stress urinary incontinence in women. Between its introduction in 2008 and when the use was paused in 2018, it is believed that over 100,000 women in the UK underwent mash implant procedures.

Sadly, many of them were not properly advised about the alternative options available to treat stress urinary incontinence. My honourable friend has mentioned physiotherapy supervised exercise of which these women were not advised, and neither were they advised about the risks associated with using vaginal mesh. And some of these women sustained life altering injuries. Before I became an MP, I was a solicitor representing women who've been affected by marginal mesh implants and pursued claims for compensation based on common negligence. I came across women who are left in constant pain, unable to work, participate in daily aspects of life, personal relationships were affected and their lives were changed forever by a treatment that was supposed to help them.

I commend the work of Baroness Cumberlege in her report published in July 2020 which recommended that the government should immediately issue a full apology on behalf of the healthcare system to the family affected by mesh. She also proposed a scheme to be set up to meet the cost of providing additional care and support to those who experienced avoidable harm, and also propose networks of specialist centres to be set up to provide comprehensive treatment, care and advice for those affected by implants.

A subsequent report released in 2024 through the patient safety Commissioner recommended and financial and non- financial redress scheme for all of those affected by mesh. Looking ahead and having spoken about vaginal mesh, it is critical that current recommended treatments for incontinence are subject to the incontinence are subject to the highest clinical scrutiny, and that we take steps to ensure that no more patients are harmed in the pursuit of quick fixes or one size fits all solutions. At the heart of every treatment plan, there must be the dignity, safety and informed choice of the patient.

Treatments must be tailored to the time and severity of each individuals condition, not determined by cost-effectiveness alone. Patient outcomes are not simply financial metrics which Moscow central to how we define value in care for incontinence patients. We must break the stigma surrounding this issue. A recent study found that around 40% of women had experienced urinary incontinence, yet only 17% of those had sought professional help. Poor continence care, as has been mentioned, can lead to complications such as infections, social isolation, and in some cases, hospital admissions.

Each of these outcomes is completely avoidable with early intervention and treatment and something that we must aim for in our healthcare system. Only by tackling the to be investing in better treatment pathways and listening to the voices of those affected can we ensure that people living with incontinence are able to access the support they need and to do so with the dignity that they deserve.
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Chris Vince Portrait Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )
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Can I first thanked my friend from Dudley for securing this really important debate, and I would say it is really great to have her experience working as a physio she can bring to this issue. I want to thank the member for looking at the scandal. Very early on into the election, I had a number of women come to me who are victims of the pelvic mesh scandal. At this point, I had over a dozen women approach me, and that is just in Harlow constituency, so it really gives us an idea of the huge number of women who have been affected by this terrible scandal.

I don't just want to focus on the pelvic mesh schedule, not just because my friend did far more justice than I did, but because whether you are the victim of a national scandal or any of the other reasons that the honourable member mentioned for bladder and bowel issues, nobody should be made to feel embarrassed by these issues. What really struck me talking to victims of the public mesh scandal was the kind of journey they went on when they initially had issues of bladder and bowel problems.

They did feel really embarrassed, and only feel really embarrassed, and only when it got to a point where they were in almost constant painted they feel they could come forward, and what a terrible situation to be so embarrassed that you feel you can't come forward. We have really got to end that stigma, and I wasn't going to mention it, but as we are in a safe space, I would mention my only experience of suffering from IBS as a young person. It was all Mr Chope, went on holiday.

We must make sure we near a toilet so that Chris can go. Actually, it shouldn't be a stigma. It is a medical condition and people should understand it, support it, and give you the support to deal with it. To really show solidarity with those people who do suffer from bowel issues, urinary incontinence affects an estimated number of people in the UK, so if you do suffer from these issues, please don't think you're the only person to be suffering from them.

A quick maths calculation tells us that 20,000 per constituency, sowing the significant amount of people will suffer from these issues, and because the NHS is roughly £5 billion a year dealing with these issues, I wonder if that bill would come down if we gave confidence to people suffering from these issues to come forward sooner. Some of the symptoms I have alluded to, but loss of dignity and independence of social isolation, my friend who is not in his place mentioned the fact that there are people who are not going out at all because they are embarrassed.

What a terrible situation for them to be in. And one that is entirely avoidable. If we could help them to reduce the embarrassment and the stigma that people feel. I joined my honourable friend from Dudley to ask about the collection of data on those impacted by this issue and the need for a public health campaign. I thank the member for mentioning the issue of stamens. I have a friend of mine who absolutely has a stoma and I'm sure she would really welcome this issue, ending the stigma in regards to that.

I will briefly talk about women's health. I recognise the vital contribution for the honourable member from Dumfries and Galloway about the impact on men, but I welcome the fact that, on a number of situations, we have really championed the importance of health equality. I hear a number of signs from people that aren't taken seriously, and I hope they will address that in the summing up. I thank the honourable member from Dudley for bringing this hugely important debate to this house.

I agree with sentiments across the house that this is the first step in ending the stigma, and I hope we can work together to end the stigma, the embarrassment, and I know this is just the start of that. just the start of that.
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14:41
Lauren Sullivan Portrait Dr Lauren Sullivan MP (Gravesham, Labour)
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Thank you. I would like to thank my right honourable friend. This incredible debate. It has been absolutely wonderful to Leggett how this has been conducted. It is often overlooked, as it has been said, and it is incurring on world incontinence week. Bladder and bowel control issues are a to B. They are embarrassing, and I like to thank the member for sharing his experience. He won't be alone, and I'm sure there are many, and we need to talk about this openly.

It affects so many people. One in three women have an incontinence issue in the UK. Half of those are likely to suffer from pregnancy, childbirth, and other two products. How is it detected and diagnosed? The University of Aberdeen have found that, in basic bladder tests which are obviously painful and incredibly uncomfortable, researchers have found that non-invasive testing, including what she has described about pelvic floor exercises, those things should be made more available to patients.

That is just one of the issues. The other one, surgical implants. I refer to the member from Wolverhampton West for his incredible expertise, and I thank him for the work being done to protect women. The complications that have affected hundreds and thousands of women are being described as barbaric, and we must do more to make sure that those women are compensated. No amount will ever make up for the pain and emotional damage. This issue needs to be treated with respect, care, and treatment opportunities.

We'd to be empowered so people feel that they can be empowered to prevent these things from occurring. I want to pay tribute to the bins campaign, and I have been absolutely incredible because many suffer from incontinence, and we need those bins and these public spaces. So, how can and these public spaces. So, how can we help people? The impact made the point that austerity and cuts to local government have meant that many public toilets have been closed.

The local council has increased the number of toilets increased the number of toilets available, including one by the bus hub, so that people who know and plan those regular breaks if they are needed need to make sure that people feel empowered and confident

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because we cannot have more people. I pay tribute to my honourable friend from Dudley for raising this friend from Dudley for raising this very important subject. My honourable friend from Penrith and Solway mentioned, as have others, Solway mentioned, as have others, the importance of greater and better provision of public conveniences. provision of public conveniences. But does she agree with me that we also need to encourage cafe's and other organisations within town other organisations within town centres to make better provision for people who are suffering from these people who are suffering from these issues, and perhaps some of the campaigns that have been alluded to campaigns that have been alluded to in make those spaces available, by no means to replace what public services could do, but to assist

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services could do, but to assist people who are vulnerable to have places that they need in our town centres. I would agree with him. The

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I would agree with him. The community toilet scheme has been community toilet scheme has been used and has been a good success, but the issue comes down to but the issue comes down to vandalism. Councils cannot see this as an easy way to cut money. I will support his bid to make it a statutory duty to provide public statutory duty to provide public No one deserves to be lonely lots at home, I hope this will be the first step in opening the door and

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bringing this to the attention of the world. Thank you. Liberal Democrat Frontbench. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. It

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Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to see you back in the chair. I'd like to start by thanking the audible for Dudley. This the audible for Dudley. This important debate. Outlining so are the issues in her opening speech, and importance of breaking down the
14:46
Helen Morgan Portrait Helen Morgan MP (North Shropshire, Liberal Democrat)
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and importance of breaking down the taboos surrounding incontinence and the social isolation that can result from it. I have carefully scribbled on my speech all the way through the term incontinence and hope fully replaced it with bladder and bowel control issues. I also recognise the importance of conventional specialist treatment. She highlighted the benefits both to individuals and taxpayers for investing upfront and I echo that call. There are lots of excellent contributions but I want to thank the member for Wolverhampton West for raising the scandal of pelvic plants.

Incontinence or bladder and bowel control issues can have a hugely detrimental impact on a person's well-being and sense of dignity as we have heard. Despite affecting millions of people across the UK, it is the subject of stigma, and the needs of those with bladder and bowel control issues are not being considered in many aspects of life. Often people suffering from these issues are left without the right support, whether it is the uncomfortable situations that has been referred to or no access to sanitary bins in public and workplace toilets.

It has been widely seen for many years that sanitary bins are not required in public toilets. As we have heard, many millions of men are affected by bladder and bowel control issues. The absence of sanitary bins is a wholly unnecessary and damaging impact on their self-esteem causing embarrassment and stress, and withdraw from public places and also the workplace. The cost is tiny but the benefits for those affected can be significant. There has been progress in this area thanks to the work of campaigns and there is far further to go.

That is why it is crucial that we support all individuals with the condition by ensuring access to services like public toilets and sanitary bins. And fourthly that is not the case. Under the last government, 19% of nearly 600 toilet facilities were lost, between 2015 and 2021 alone. Liberal Democrat research from 45 councils found the number public toilet had fallen by 14% for 2018 until 2023. Many local authorities are on the verge of bankruptcy and don't have the spare capacity vital services.

The proper funding of local authorities to provide services like public toilets and sanitary bins could make a huge difference to people with bladder and bowel control issues and I hope the whole House will agree these individuals deserve access to better facilities. There's also a clear need for more research and to develop better treatments for people suffering from bladder and bowel control issues. They should avoid unnecessary discomfort and invasive procedures. I support the coffee honourable Lady that the University of Aberdeen has found that women with ongoing incontinence could avoid tasks and non-invasive assessments work just as well.

Emphasis on respecting people's dignity and reducing discomfort should be at the heart of how we approach the testing, treatment, and mitigation of these issues. We know these issues particularly bowel incontinence can place a significant strain on family carers carrying out personal care were often under supported and suffered from ill- health themselves. Many care requests go unmet. Last year it was found that nearly 1/3 of requests for local government funding resulted in no support for care at home. This means many thousands of families struggling with the reality of caring for a loved one bladder and bowel control issues and that can include not only the feelings of embarrassment and shame for them and their loved one by difficulty with lifting and moving a family member to clean them and difficulty accessing equipment to cope.

That is why dealing with the crisis in social care should be a top priority for the government. When the Secretary of State phoned me and the other spokespeople over the Christmas break to let me know that he was instigating the Casey Review and cross-party talks to find a long-term solution, I was hugely encouraged. Since then the Casey Review has been delayed, cross-party talks currently cancelled and I must stress that each party talking to Baroness Casey is not the same as sitting in the same room and carry out the plan.

The terms of reference do not deliver meaningful reform until the next Parliament and is a huge risk that again nothing is done by the government of the day, despite having huge majority to achieve what they want. We mother numbers of people leave needing care are increasing every year. Stepchange required becomes larger and larger and politically less palatable. I urged Mr to speak to the secretary of state and help to recover the enthusiasm of changes because he will have my full support.

However there are simple steps that can make a difference now, like hospitals working with family carers ahead of discharge to ensure they are equipped to carry out heightened personal care needs. These are not delivered in many places let alone ongoing support and meaningful respite care. Waiting times incontinence assessment vary around the country and can take weeks and weeks. Improving this will ensure the right care equipment will be available much sooner. There is a chronic shortage of speech and language therapists, that can make a real difference in Abbey Wood limited or no speech can more easily communicate when they need the toilet or want to be changed or washed.

This is particularly essential in the cases where they suffer from bladder or bowel control issues. Nor is incontinence properly reflected in how we organise paid social care. Often the pay for domiciliary carers does not reflect the fact that the needs of carers might vary hugely from day to day. Embarrassment frustration and discomfort for the person being cared for and only be made worse if they carers are rushed, stressed, overworked, and him spinning longer in one house could mean they're having to work effectively.

I want to highlight the importance of good care in hospital settings the NHS England's 2018 excellence guides date the following. There should be early assessments, effective management of incontinence and other bladder and bowel problems such as constipation and urinary tract infections. The reason I want to highlight this is that my constituent, Trevor Collings, died on 21st of May 2022 as a result of a small bowel obstruction caused by constipation. Coroner concluded that a failure to manage his constipation contributed to his avoidable death.

It is essential that healthcare settings are following the NICE guidelines, but only to preserve dignity but also to prevent serious harm and death in the worst cases. Liberal Democrats recognise the seriousness of the issues around all types of incontinence and bladder and bowel control issues, and the critical importance of ensuring that those with the condition can live with dignity. Lister will have heard the call in my speech and I hope she can commit to repairing a broken social care system, reinstating cross-party support and the Casey Review's we can make reforms necessary for the dignity of all those receiving vital care.
14:53
Gregory Stafford Portrait Gregory Stafford MP (Farnham and Bordon, Conservative)
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Thank you very much Mr Deputy Speaker. I welcome you to your place today. It is an honour to speak in this debate on behalf of his Majesty's opposition. I pay tribute to the honourable before Dudley. You are in it. Her speech included the wealth of experience that she brings to the topic, and I especially congratulate her on putting this on the agenda so clearly today in the house. It was a powerful and wide- ranging speech and demonstrates the wide range of issues and conditions that can lead to incontinence.

Incontinence is a condition that affects around 14 million people across the UK as the honourable member for Nuneaton told us earlier. Yet it remains often misunderstood, under discussed, and worse still, dismissed. One in three women experiences urinary incontinence, and half a million adult lives with bowel incontinence. It does not discriminate, whether bladder or bowel, tempi or chronic, mild or severe, incontinence touches people of all ages and backgrounds and walks of life. It affects new mothers, people recovering from surgery, those with neurological conditions, the elderly, and even children.

Yet too many suffer in silence, held back by stigma, isolation, or the belief that nothing can be done. Like honourable members, I received some heartbreaking stories from my constituents and the surrounding villages. Incontinence is a medical issue not a personal failing. It is not something to be ashamed of, it is something to be addressed through compassion, awareness, and proper care. The impact of incontinence can be profound. It affects people's confidence, their work, their relationships, and the mental health.

And that is why the week that we are currently marking matters. We cannot expect people to reach out for help unless we first create a culture where they feel safe and supported to do so. We also need to ensure that services are in place to respond they do seek help. It means better access to continence nurses, physiotherapists like the honourable member for Dudley, and urologists. It means investing in community support, research, innovation, and recognising that Continence care is a core part of our health system and not an afterthought.

I welcome the government's stated ambition to tackle inequalities in women's health and to address conditions more seriously. Warm words and long-term ambitions are not enough, as so many continue to struggle. The excellence in continence guidelines was published back in 2018 now we need clear next steps, funding, and measurable outcomes. We must not allow this to drift for another seven years while millions suffer in silence. Under the previous Conservative government, we delivered real and lasting progress in this area.

2022, we published England's first ever Women's Health Strategy, a genuine turning point shaped by listening to more than 100,000 women's voices. The strategy committed to trauma informed care, expanded research, and crucially improve the quality and accessibility of information on the NHS website. So that women can make informed choices about their own health. Under the leadership women's hubs were launched with a clear mandate to exist in every Integrated care system, bring services closer to the communities, breaking down to care. We also ensured the creation of specialist mesh centres across England delivering disciplinary regionally based care for women facing the severe consequences of surgical complications.

At a recent roundtable I attended at Bath University, it was clear that there is still more work to do to support these women and to learn from the past. I thank the members from Wolverhampton and hollow for raising this so passionately earlier. The Conservative government backed NIHR funding, empowering patients, improving clinical care, and ensuring that the lived experiences properly reflected in decision- making. But as my honourable friend so powerfully said earlier, men are often forgotten in this area.

On this side, we support any culture and any steps that will help men with incontinence. Like the honourable Member mentioned, we as men are pretty poor and going for diagnosis and treatment. That needs to change. The scale of the issue remains significant. Nearly half of women experience incontinence after childbirth, and one in 10 experienced fees will confidence. Yet only seven intends to seek help. They are told it is part of ageing or the price of motherhood. That attitude was unacceptable then and it must not be tolerated now.

One third of women suffer pelvic floor disorders after giving birth and still face barriers to care, and when men living with incontinence are afraid to leave their homes, people are forced to depend on charities access to basic hygiene products, it is clear that we have a public health problem that transcends mere inconvenience. I asked the Minister, will the Department commit to publishing an updated excellence incontinence care strategy this year with clear guidelines on account of ability? We see dedicated funding to expand women's hubs further so that continence care is a core service not a bolt on? She also bring forward a plan for better health service for mail incontinence? Will NHS England Aaron Thierry national consistency access to continence services and products ending the unacceptable postcode lottery? Will the government detect and grow funding for continence research to improve treatments for both men and women? Finally, I pay tribute to the organisations like bladder and bowel UK, Prostate Cancer UK and the Urology Foundation that are breaking taboos and supporting patients so tirelessly.

It is not their responsible of the alone full stop the government must leave. We conservatives made a start, now we need the current government to have the same urgency, ambition, and delivery to ensure that these hard- won improvements are built upon, so that no one is left to struggle in

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silence. Government Minister.

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Government Minister. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to see you in the chair I know you have done an
15:00
Karin Smyth Portrait Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)
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chair I know you have done an excellent job making sure backbenchers get in this afternoon. I will cut some of my comments but hopefully I will get to everybody. Having this debate this week, I congratulate honourable Friend for top could not be a more appropriate time to raise awareness of this issue as we hear million to people of all ages are living with bowel and bladder problems. Continence is an issue which robs people of their dignity as we had for the member for Chelsea and Fulham, and from Harlow, and because many suffer in silence.

As the Member rightly says, this is a taboo. It is great to have expertise. All continence problems can be debilitating and life changing, affect a wide range of care groups and can particularly concerned the ageing population was public discussion and awareness has opened up recently, the advertising a product has become more commonplace, having people organise these issues with which so many people live day-to-day. There is still a very long way from being a society that supports people with incontinence to live without stigma.

As it is his occur in people of all ages, we need to recognise the different approaches are required. We had an excellent cultivation for the member for Dumfries and Galloway. As did the opposition spokesperson. The member for Strangford talked about children in the Nuneaton member talk to who Dignity and compassion must be at the heart of the care provided. That is why we are creating reforms where the patient is at the heart of the care pathway and the decision-making process around that.

The 10 year health plan and its focus on the three shifts needed to deliver a modern NHS moving from hospital to community, analogue to digital and sinister prevention will benefit people at risk for developing already living with incontinence. Preventing type II diabetes or helping people into remission will also help reduce the number of people who develop continence problems as they go through life. We have had many contributions about women's health. NHS England has a health service which provides focus on the prevention, identification and timely treatment of a range of issues antenatal and for 12 months after birth and initiative aimed to help women who experience trauma during childbirth, including conditions like organ prolapse like the member from Gration.

Continence the member from Gration. Continence surveys are provided more verbally, and incontinence care is a key consideration for local organisations in establishing hubs, and can I also commend my friend for Wolverhampton West on his expertise and experience that he brought to this debate, supporting so many women. So many of us in this house of supported women through the horrors of mesh in the last Parliament, and moving that issue Parliament, and moving that issue forward. By moving from sickness to prevention, the government wants to shorten the amount of time people spent on ill-health before they happen, so well prevention is important, we must also ensure those living with incontinence receive the best possible care wherever they live in a key part of that is the NHS providing high-quality guidance on how to care for people living with incontinence.

The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence has published five guidelines on the management of urinary incontinence to date. These cover the management of incontinence and people with no illogical disease, pension management of public law dysfunction and organ prolapse in women. They rubbished a further 14 products in relation to incontinence and 12 in relation to faecal incontinence. We have commissioned late stage assessment guidance on one-piece closed bags for colostomy is an intermittent urethral catheters for chronic incomplete bladder emptying adults.

These late stage assessments gather the views of clinical experts and patients to help assess the value of products in widespread use across the NHS and in addition to guidance, the NHS also have regarded the excellence incontinence care guidance published as we had in 2018. NHS has also produced a safe about care for patients at risk of autonomic dyslexia, a serious medical emergency that can echo with people spinal injuries which offers resources to provide safer practice and highlights the importance of impairment in the excellent framework.

In addition, the nascent council has professional standards relating to bladder and bowel nursing care. They co-places strong emphasis on the principle of prioritising people which sets out the expectation that residents should always reply to patient's needs. It is also developing a backpackers catheter care pathways across all settings to be complete by the end of this year. The provision of suitable care and the products necessary to deliver that is essential for minimising the physical harm -related complications and treatments for continence problems that can lead to admission to hospital for extended lengths of stay and the NHS will commission pathways that ensure early assessment and effective management of incontinence along with other bladder and bowel problems.

These pathways will take account of the urinary tract infections on social, physical and mental well-being in order to reduce expensive usage, high cost publications, and unnecessary hospital and care home admissions. Our focus will help drive more joint work between primary care, pharmacies, community healthcare and social care to help people manage incontinence at home, helping them have access to healthcare professional support so they can pass from service provider to service powder, reducing the need for emergency emissions to hospitals as we've had from Nuneaton, and I thought the member from Solway eight excellent points about accessing facilities and I know that he will keep pressurising colleagues in MHC LG around that, and the points echoed by the mother for Colchester.

As I stated, shifting care into community settings is one of our three shifts. We will be publishing the 10 year plan. I want to thank the honourable members for bringing forward this debate to raise awareness of this important but overlooked issue.
15:06
Sonia Kumar Portrait Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)
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Finally, the windup debate. I hope she takes my recommendations. I would like to thank all the members that have contributed to this debate and I hope they continue the conversations in their constituencies. I would like to thank the honourable member for Dumfries and Galloway for the contributions of men health and stigma. I would like to thank my honourable friend from Nuneaton and her work with the APPG bladder care and the information about paediatric care and lack of provision.

I would like to thank the honourable member for Strangford who raised the issue of neglecting bladder and bowel conditions in the NHS, the honourable member for Wolverhampton who spoke quite passionately about the high quality care that is needed for patients and the pelvic mesh scandal and my honourable friend from Gravesham who spoke very powerfully about dealing with bowel conditions, looking at prevention. I would also like to thank the member for Harlow who touched on health inequalities and shared his personal experience.

The member for Gloucester who discussed public toilets. Lastly, I would like to thank everybody today and say this once more. Men, women and children and young people who are listening

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to the debate, you are not alone and there is absolutely no shame. The question is is on the order

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The question is is on the order paper. The eyes have it. Order, can paper. The eyes have it. Order, can we change over swiftly as possible
15:08
Darren Paffey Portrait Darren Paffey MP (Southampton Itchen, Labour)
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We come We come to We come to the We come to the debate We come to the debate on We come to the debate on water safety. Thank you very much. Can I begin

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Thank you very much. Can I begin

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Thank you very much. Can I begin by welcoming you to your place? I would like to thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting me the opportunity to secure this debate and all honourable friends who supported that application. It is particularly poignant because this week, we mark the Royal lifesaving Society's national prevention week, a timely moment to speak not just of tragedy but of our responsibility and opportunity as well. Every year in this country, over 300 people drown. Many of them just metres from safety.

In the last three years alone, almost 150 children have lost their lives to drowning. That is the equivalent of five full classrooms of young people. Their future snapped by accidents that are in so many cases preventable. As an island nation with coastlines, rivers, lakes, canals, we are surrounded by water. It is my privilege to represent the people of Southampton, a coastal constituency where we live alongside the River Itchen, Ocean Village Marina and a major port alongside Southampton water.

The water makes our city what it is. But with that comes risk. So today, I ask this house are we doing enough to prepare our children for the island nation that they are growing up in. The problem is clear and it is stark. Since 2020, over 1700 people have drowned in the UK. And disturbingly, during that same period, drowning deaths have doubled. With more than half of these tragedies occurring in open water. The national curriculum does currently require some practical training so the primary age children should be able to swim 25 m, be able to use a range of strokes and to demonstrate self rescue techniques.

But if this alone were enough, we wouldn't be here debating this today under the shadow of so many lost lives. The policy on the National Curriculum is welcome, but a policy is only as good as the difference that it makes. So, how effective is it? A sport England report that children leave school able to swim 25 m. That is down since before the pandemic. The is not just one of mobility either bit of social class as well. Just 35% of children from lowering families can children from lowering families can swim 25 m.

Compare that to the 76% of those from more affluent backgrounds. The result is that children from the most deprived areas are twice as likely to drown.

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I thank my honourable friend for giving way on this important issue giving way on this important issue of teaching children. He represents a coastal community and in Hastings a coastal community and in Hastings and right, we led many people and and right, we led many people and parents to miss that facility. parents to miss that facility. Hundreds have supported me to get this back open. Does he agree that this back open. Does he agree that we need to see an increase in school swimming lessons and facilities, not the role of that?

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the role of that? I think my honourable friend for making that very salient point and I making that very salient point and I have no doubt that occurrences like the ones we have had in her constituency are part of the reason why fewer children now are able to swim and I wish her every success in her campaign. I will happily give

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way. I thank my friend for giving way. It was a very similar point that I want to make with regard to how the honourable lady made her point, but honourable lady made her point, but I have had a number of schools close their own pools over the last 20 years, and the somebody that grew up years, and the somebody that grew up in Lewisham, I had access to a school pool. Does he agree that we need to work together in terms of national quality to make sure that though some school ports are closed, there is that access to local government to our local leisure facilities at a discounted rate for young people?

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I think my honourable friend and constituency neighbour for the point constituency neighbour for the point that he makes, and there is a great need to work in partnership. It is need to work in partnership. It is sent in uppercase that we have as many pools as we used to, be they local authority run or within local authority run or within schools themselves. But we should be working towards increasing the number of those where possible or by sharing those vital resources in our communities.

Add to these communities. Add to these inequalities, there are ethnic inequalities as well. Black children are three times more likely than white children to drown. Water white children to drown. Water safety education cannot be left to safety education cannot be left to chance or to postcode. It is a vital chance or to postcode. It is a vital provision for every part of an island nation like ours and should island nation like ours and should not depend on the lottery of family income, school funding, or private access to lessons.

Let me tell the access to lessons. Let me tell the house about Joe Abbott. Joe from Southampton was a bright, Southampton was a bright, responsible, fit 17-year-old man. He was an ambitious trainee chef at the was an ambitious trainee chef at the local college and worked part-time at Southampton football club. He was the kind of teenager that any parent would be proud of. Someone who followed the rules, led by example, a caring and loyal friend who was well-known in his friendship group as the dad figure.

On 31 May 2023, Joe and his friends went for a day at Bournemouth beach. They were swimming waist high in the sea as Joe, who was a strong swimmer, had done many, many times before. They were between the safety flags in full view of lifeguards. But in an instant, a rip current turned their financial tragedy. The water was very suddenly over their heads. Joe got into difficulty and was pulled further out into the water before disappearing beneath it.

11 people were rescued from the water that day because of that rip current and I commend the emergency services for their action. But tragically, Joe and 12-year-old summer did not survive. The coroner reported that this was an accident. A devastating and fatal act of nature, but they also report that rip currents can occur anywhere along the UK coastline at any time. How many people, especially children know that? How many members in this chamber would understand, recognise and rightly respond to a rip On sunny days many will want to enjoy rivers and beaches.

But we have to ensure that we are doing everything we can to make sure they

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can do that safely. I will happily give way. Can I commend the honourable gentleman for bringing this forward. He is right to be at the issue of education. But sometimes education. But sometimes unfortunately those who are described as strong swimmers, they described as strong swimmers, they get themselves in difficulties. Does the gentleman feel there is a role the gentleman feel there is a role for the education minister, a role for local councils to identify where the problems are, whether it be in the problems are, whether it be in the seas, or whether it be in lakes the seas, or whether it be in lakes where some people have jumped into a lake did not know there were obstructions in the water as an obstructions in the water as an example? Does he feel there is a greater role to work in partnership, education, and councils together, to

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education, and councils together, to identify what the problems may be, so that people will know what they are doing? I thank him for the very relevant

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I thank him for the very relevant point he makes. I will come on to the issue of how we can ensure that education is locally targeted. Each education is locally targeted. Each of the situations we face in our constituencies will be that bit different. It is important that on different. It is important that on top of a compulsory expectation there are locally targeted there are locally targeted campaigns. We would not let somebody get into a car without having first passed a theory test.

So why don't we come pensively and consistently teach our children before they enter the water, to have fun, this is not about taking away the fun. It is about having that knowledge about the hidden threats and therefore the power to do something about it. I would like to pay tribute to Jo's mother, Vanessa, who I'm pleased is with us in the gallery today. She has become a tireless campaigner, sending hundreds of letters to local schools. She has worked with the Royal Life Saving Society, the RNLI.

She has pushed for improved signage at Bournemouth and brought a powerful story to Parliament earlier this week when we established the all-party group for water safety education. She has done all of this in the hope that no other family should suffer as hers has. The coroner's report was submitted to the Secretary of State in October last year. The coroner said, an ideal opportunity to warn and inform all members of the public would be through educating children of the risks. The lack of providing education to children around these risks through the national classroom curriculum could lead to future deaths.

The coroner also stated urgent action should be taken to prevent further deaths, and the Department for education has the power to take such action. I warmly welcome the Secretary of State's response to that report, in which he committed to look carefully at what more can be done to support swimmers, to provide water safety education to all people. And to give full consideration to including a requirement that they should be teaching about water safety including the water safety code.

Today I urge the government to uphold that commitment and to go further. As has become clear, we need to do more than just teach swimming. Access to pools is uneven, as honourable members have highlighted. Lessons very inequality and induration. Too many children especially in deprived minority communities are being left hind. The Department for education says that all pupils should be taught to swim and how to be safe in and around water. Yes, they should, but is saying should really enough? At this point I don't believe so.

We can and we must go further. We need to mandate classroom-based water safety education in every school. I pay tribute to many people who have campaigned on this before including Rebecca Ramsey from Chorley who secured some concessions under the previous government. Rebecca recently said that changes are not coming quicker. For her son Dylan, and Fort Jo, and for too many others, I ask the government to tackle this issue with the urgency it deserves. The Royal Life Saving Society has already created a high quality class resources that are cost-effective and improve children's understanding and confidence around water.

They reach everyone through their water Smart schools campaign, splash safety, through awards, and these reach those regardless of background or access to swimming pools. They offer a lesson for life. So let's not leave it to chance. Let's bring these resources into the heart of our curriculum. I am grateful to the Minister and look forward to her response. Whilst I recognise the Minister's responsibilities lie within education, there are wider points I would ask to convey back to government.

Firstly there is currently no minister for water safety or drowning prevention in the UK. Despite having ministers for fire safety, road safety, and other preventable public dangers. And despite Scotland and Wales having dedicated water safety ministerial roles. So I ask, why doesn't England? The National Water Safety Forum and the World Health Organization, they both urge the government to appoint such ministers and I echo that call today. The coroner noted that one in four children still do not receive any swimming education, and that number has almost certainly worsened since the pandemic.

Secondly I asked today, will the government commit to a national swimming and water safety strategy based on up-to-date evidence about children's access across this country to swimming lessons and water safety education? Thirdly, my major request to government is that when the national curriculum is updated following the review currently happening, and is taught in every school, as mandated in The Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill, will the government use that opportunity to enshrine water safety is a core compulsory part of every child's education? The point of the curriculum we know is not just to pass exams.

It is to prepare our young people for life. If Labour's mission is to Break Down Barriers to Opportunity, then here is just about the greatest opportunity we can offer.

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Opportunity to learn and to live. I will happily give way. I thank the member for giving

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I thank the member for giving way. Would he agree that there is more to this than just teaching children to swim? A lifeboat in my constituency saves about 60 people from drowning every year, and many from drowning every year, and many of them have been swept out to sea because of wind and tides, and understanding the nature of the sea and how dangerous it can be a

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and how dangerous it can be a crucial part. It is not just about knowing how to swim, it's about knowing how to survive at sea. I fully agree with the honourable

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I fully agree with the honourable Lady. As I commended the emergency Lady. As I commended the emergency services that rushed to the aid on that fateful day in Bournemouth, I commended the project she has mentioned in her constituency. In mentioned in her constituency. In closing, no child should drown closing, no child should drown simply because they were not taught how to recognise the dangers. It is essential to teach children how to swim, yes, but it is not enough. We swim, yes, but it is not enough.

We must teach them how to survive in different contexts. The coroner's morning is chilling in its clarity. morning is chilling in its clarity. Further deaths will occur unless action is taken. Today I ask the government, please act now. Make classroom-based water safety education a compulsory part of the National Curriculum. Not an optional extra, not a postcode lottery, but a guaranteed life-saving entitlement for every child in every school in every constituency in every part of this country. The time to act is now.

Before any more lives are lost. Thank you.

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The question is as on the Order Paper. This is a very important subject will stop there are some 14 subject will stop there are some 14 members who wish to contribute to the debate. Allowing eight minutes the debate. Allowing eight minutes each for windups, and a couple of minutes for the object when he was minutes for the object when he was just spoken, I think we are looking just spoken, I think we are looking at a time limit of about five minutes each.

I'm not going to put a time limit formally on it at the
15:25
Saqib Bhatti Portrait Saqib Bhatti MP (Meriden and Solihull East, Conservative)
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moment but if honourable members stick to that or try to, we should get everybody in. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the member for securing this thank the member for securing this debate. I would like to declare an interest is that vice chair the APPG on water safety as well. Members will know there are always moments in our careers that will be etched in our memories, we can only hope that they are moments of joy. Sadly I stand here to talk about a moment of tragedy.

That moment was on 11 December 2022, which I will always remember. It impacted my constituents in a moment of great tragedy. But on that day that there were four young boys who were playing near a lake which had been playing near a lake which had been iced over. An eight year old, his six-year-old brother, an 11 year old, and Jack Johnson who was 10 years old. They were playing near the ice, they were feeding ducks, and as the coroner later reported, Jack was with one group and the other three were playing together in another group.

One of the boys decided to go onto the ice. It was Finlay who fell in first and Thomas and Jack tried to help and sadly nobody saw Samuel fall in was the boys were shouting for help but the witnesses could not reach them in time. I want to pay tribute to the emergency services because they reached their within 11 minutes. They ignored their own safety advice, they took off their body armour, it took out their batons, and they used their fist to try and break through the advice.

One officer who jumped in was neck deep in water and had to be treated for water shock therapy. As the police reported, many more moments we would have had a tragedy. The water was too deep. And sadly none of the boys survived. For me, what really strikes me as the reason I'm standing here today is the suddenness of this tragedy. I suppose all tragedies are sudden but on 11 December, what really strikes me is two weeks before Christmas, I'm not sure any of us can fathom what the parents of the two brothers or that family or of Jack, what they went through or whether they will ever be able to come to terms with it.

It is particularly important to my community because the community came together. And I remember going to the visuals and the tributes the week after, and these boys who were massively central to their school communities, you could see how much pain and hurt they were going through. Everyone came together, and that collective grief and pain still stays with me. I'm reminded of it every year because sadly I still hear every Christmas of children playing on the lakes when it is iced over.

As the coroner reported, the temperature that day was around 5C will stop I ramble where I was it felt a lot colder. The water was a lot colder than that. The honourable member talked about education, and I agree with all of the comments made. I will work closely with him on that because I do believe it to be a cross-party issue, or certainly not a partisan issue. Cold water shock is something I knew very little about, and what the coroner said his within minutes, those boys would have suffered fatal brain damage which is what happened.

When the tragedy happened, I also remember how I came to the house, having done lots of media. I member doing one interview when the story broke, and members across the house came to pay tribute to those communities, including the Prime Minister who, within minutes of the story breaking had called me to find out if there was anything that could be done. He also paid tribute to those boys at PMQs. For me this is a really personal debate because I see the pain when people talk about it in Solihull.

There isn't anyone in the Midlands we talked them about the four children, and actually across the country, I was talking to members today, and those four lads who passed away in Solihull, everyone remembered what happened. It does come back to education. In the previous government I had written and spoken to the Minister about trying to up grade the gardens. We will not able to. I wrote to the education secretary a few months ago I did not get a response, I hope some indication will be given today because I just think this issue is so important.

I am very keen to make sure we get change. I asked the Minister on behalf of my families in North Solihull, on behalf of Jack and Thomas, to ensure that we try and avoid these tragedies in the future.

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I also welcome you to your place, I'm grateful to my honourable friend
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Anneliese Dodds Portrait Rt Hon Anneliese Dodds MP (Oxford East, Labour )
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I'm grateful to my honourable friend for bringing this debate. What a safety education is particularly important for my constituency of Oxford East. First, because we have a number of bodies of water in Oxford which can be very cold, as in many other constituencies because of hidden depths. We also have in many cases poor access for rescue vehicles, and also many of them contain submerged obstacles. We also in Oxford have a young population, which is exuberant and fun loving.

Of course, that's a wonderful thing. But celebrations too often in my city have turned to tragedy, as we saw recently with promising student Wesley. I regrettably won't be able to mention every tragic case in my speech, there are too many of them sadly. From Oxford. But I mention him because I understand he had aspired to become Britain's youngest prime minister. And I have to say, from his many achievements I don't think it would have been long until he was elbowing us out of the way.

He was an incredible young man, I pay tribute to him and his friends and family, and to all those who have lost young ones -- loved ones in my city from drowning. Oxford is also highly prone to flooding, often difficult for people to assess where deep water is compared to floodwater, and also where obstacles are submerged within the floodwater. Better education really is important in my city. It needs to be part of a broader suite of initiatives, from effective signage to access to supervised swimming, like with Oxford city council's free city -- swimming program for under 16's.

And where required and feasible, physical restrictions. There is in my city, and I'm sure this applies to other constituencies represented here, you rigourous debate about the rights of wild swimmers in waterways that have deemed to be unsafe. I understand the contention that they will often be swimming together, that they don't tend to dive into the water and they are experienced swimmers. They are of course still at risk from effluent discharge and algal blooms, but I would urge anyone considering swimming in those wild areas to consult the Environment Agency assessment of water quality, and above all to educate themselves about the dangers of the water.

Even if they think they are experienced. Because no matter how experienced a swimmer is, they are in an unsupervised waterway with a water temperature below 16 degrees, as we heard they could experience cold water shot or the other hazards I just mentioned. As the chair of the National water said, drowning can occur anywhere and to anyone. We have seen efforts from the Oxford Fire and rescue service to educate people about the water, that has been positive as well as the water safety code already mentioned.

And simplified messages about float to live. We spoken really passionately about making sure our schools are reinforcing that message. As he said, water safety is mandatory in primary school, but with those disturbing issues about access and disparities related to social class and ethnicity I would also note however that Becky Francis's curriculum review for the government has shown its challenging for many schools to prioritise PE because of the accumulated challenges they are facing at the moment.

There's a particular issue at Keys date for around this, and as she works towards full review hope she can look at the specific issue of water safety in more detail. I also hope the government will consider it carefully, I know the Minister will want to be doing this, as they are reviewing the RSHE draft statutory guidance. I know organisations in Oxford are keen for this so they can have a joined up approach with local schools with that better signage information and so forth that I mentioned.

Just finally, wherever possible in undertaking this work I think it's really important that young people themselves are included in the conversation. Because they know what is going to be most effective a lot of the time with their peers. One of the most effective measures I believe in my city is a really striking memorial that has been painted to Hussein Muhammad, a 15-year-old who died after jumping from Donnington Bridge in 2012, very sadly not the only person who has died from that cause.

13 years later that bridge still features their touching mural which reminds people of Hussein, and hopefully also recalls to them the

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need to stay water safe. I thank the honourable member for Southampton for bringing this Southampton for bringing this important debate to the house today. Every year, as we have heard, in the
15:35
Monica Harding Portrait Monica Harding MP (Esher and Walton, Liberal Democrat)
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Every year, as we have heard, in the UK more than 200 lives are lost to accidental drowning. In fact in the UK it claims more lives each year than house fires or cycling accidents. This must be a wake-up call. Today in this House we have an opportunity and responsibility to bring these numbers down. The problem is as clear as it is urgent, too many people grow up without being taught how to stay safe around water. Swimming must be a call life skill, as we have heard, yet according to the Royal Life Saving Society one in three children leaves primary school unable to swim properly.

That figure should concern us all, and its children from the most disadvantaged background who are most likely to miss out. In other words, those at greatest risk are the least protected. And this isn't just about learning to swim, although that is essential. It's also about knowing what to do when things go wrong. When someone panics, when cold water shot sets in, when every second counts. And every summer, every bank holiday, every heatwave like this week, the risk increases.

Rivers, lakes, canals and coastlines become magnets for young people, and far too often lives are lost. In my constituency we have seen three tragic drowning deaths in the past four years, two of them occurred in the fierce heat of the summer of 2022. A heartbreaking testament to the risks that arise with each heatwave. These are tragedies with unimaginable pain for the families, but also profound effects for schools, emergency services and the wider community. As a river based constituency, we go it to our residents and businesses to prioritise what a safety.

The risks are all around us, particularly at the moment during this week. The Thames threads through our towns, through our parks, while reservoirs sit at the heart about communities. Addressing the root causes is so important. One of my constituents took up the cause by leading a local water safety campaign, along a stretch of the Thames between Thames Ditton and Hampton Court which I have heard referred to by schoolchildren as the Barbados of south-east London. Determined to prevent virgin tragedies, now partnered with the RNLI and bridge Council and other stakeholders they installed safety signage and safety through lines.

They also expanded water safety training, advising swimmers to stay parallel to the riverbank instead of swimming across the river Thames. A powerful example of community led action backed by the right support, saving lives. But there is more we can do, the RNLI play a vital role in my constituency and I pay tribute to their tireless work. Some schools are already leading the way by teaching key life skills through PSHE and citizenship. But we must do more to ensure water safety is embedded in our children's education, especially in areas like

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mine where rivers and open water... Thank you, I am pleased this debate is taking place. I just wanted to point out, I wonder whether the honourable Lady would whether the honourable Lady would have a comment about the fact that in my constituency and within Somerset, in fact the whole of Somerset, there's 8463 miles of rivers and streams. If you went from Somerset that would take you as far as Singapore. That level of water as Singapore. That level of water coverage presents a danger for those not only who swim and need to be not only who swim and need to be taught to swim, but also young people should understand very clearly what to do should the vehicle in which they are travelling go into water.

There are very go into water. There are very specific rules around how to save yourself if the car or vehicle you are in goes into water. I just

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are in goes into water. I just wondered if she had a comment about that. I thank my honourable friend for

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I thank my honourable friend for her intervention and bringing attention to vehicles going into the attention to vehicles going into the water. In my constituency the Thames provides our water with London so it provides our water with London so it stretches along the entirety of our constituency. And of course cars do go into the river. So it is essential in areas like ours where river and open water are a daily part of life, that our children are taught to be safe in water.

I wonder whether the Minister would consider ensuring water safety is integrated into secondary school curriculum so that every young person leaves school equipped with these essential skills for their safety. Because it is now, in a heatwave, when GCSEs and A-levels are just finished, when our children are at great risk. I sense that my 16-year-old after finishing his GCSEs was thinking of doing just that, it took all my parental bribery to make sure he didn't do that. Organisations like the Royal Life Saving Society alongside the RNLI provide expert guidance from recognising dangerous currents, raising awareness of cold water shock as well as assisting people in distress in the river.

By working with these partners we can build a generation that's not only confident in water but capable of saving lives. These are not just water safety tools, they are universal life-saving skills that can make all the difference in emergencies of all kinds. Countries like Australia brightly treat water safety as a national priority. When you grow up surrounded by water you are taught to navigate it, just as our children are taught to wear seat belts or how to cross roads. The UK, an island nation flowing with rivers, should be no different.

Let's work to a future where fewer families face heartbreak, let's finally make water safety a

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priority. I want to thank the honourable member and the Backbench Business Committee for securing this important debate. I also want to important debate. I also want to thank Michael Wardle, a Royal thank Michael Wardle, a Royal society lifeguard, and his team at the watersports centre in Salford, for their dedication for saving for their dedication for saving lives in Salford. I had the pleasure of meeting them and their passion for educating about water safety was inspiring. In Salford quays, countless lives have tragically been countless lives have tragically been lost as young people head to the waters of the keys unaware of the waters of the keys unaware of the dangers within.

It's a ship canal so it's incredibly deep, littered with underwater obstacles. The area is underwater obstacles. The area is now monitored by CCTV cameras and by joint council and police patrols in joint council and police patrols in hot weather. Under 18's court jumping from bridges or illegally swimming will receive a police
15:42
Rebecca Long Bailey Portrait Rebecca Long Bailey MP (Salford, Labour)
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swimming will receive a police warning, adults will be fixed -- issued a fixed penalty notice. It still doesn't stop people crowding to the keys on days like today looking to cool off or have fun with their friends. The sad thing is there are supervised swimming areas there, that can offer a safer swimming environment. They are only open at limited times and they are not free. This bar is too many young people from them. Firstly doing this one simple thing the government could ensure my constituents are safe, just to provide a little funding to open up these supervised life guarded swimming areas to the public for free and for longer during the summer months.

That way no young person is tempted to risk their life in dangerous areas when they can't have access to a supervised one. Secondly, as we have heard today water safety education is critical. Whilst it has been statutory for children to be able to swim 25 metres by the time they reach year seven, evidence sadly suggests the number of children receiving swimming lessons is actually declining. In 2020 for the Royal Life Saving Society estimated over 140,000 children left primary school without vital life-saving skills.

There are also inequalities within those statistics. Sports England found 54.4% of children from low income families could swim 25 metres in but -- by year seven. Barriers to the current provision include poll access, transportation costs, staff shortage is, and cultural and religious barriers. It's critical to government secures water safety education on the curriculum as a statutory requirement, is also critical the government ensures schools are provided with dedicated ring fenced budgets to ensure they can meet this requirement.

Thirdly I would like to draw attention to what is quite a staggering fact. I met my local fire service in Salford recently, and learned of the amazing work they are dedicated -- their dedicated firefighters are doing to save lives and keep people safe. I met the water response team and naively, like much of the general public, just sort it was part of the service. It isn't, they do it because they are good people. Not because they are funded or required to do it.

Whilst there is public perception that the fire service is responsible to responding for water safety incidents and for water safety education, there's actually no statutory duty on them to do so. However the statutory duties do exist in Wales. They do respond to 999 calls, they do respond to England water rescue incidents using their existing general powers and resources. They scrimp and save from existing budgets to try and resource the life-saving equipment they need rather than that being allocated. Resources as a result is patchy, coverage is patchy, firefighters often train for water safety on I call on the government to urgently adopt the recommendations of the National Fire Chief, to look at responsibility for response and prevention, provide capital alongside continuous funding to support any new statutory duty introduced, establish a clear department and accountability for water safety prevention at the local authority level and to update reporting requirements of the incident recording system to accurately report water -related death and injury.

No parent should ever receive that phone call. No person should needlessly lose their lives when they ask for things that are so simple from the government. I hope the government will do all they can to urgently implement the measures that we have outlined.

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It is good to see you in the chair, Mr Speaker. I congratulate chair, Mr Speaker. I congratulate the honourable member. He is an honourable friend and we served honourable friend and we served together on the city council and
15:47
Paul Holmes Portrait Paul Holmes MP (Hamble Valley, Conservative)
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Southampton and we are now constituency neighbours. I know that he consistently stands up for the great people and city of Southampton and in particular constituency has mentioned today and I pay tribute to Joe's mum for the work she has done already and the work she will do in future to make sure we lose fewer people on waterways around the country. Although the honourable gentleman and I share Southampton Water at the busiest part of the waterways and then to Southampton, I also have the liver which comes off Southampton and it is internationally known as one of the most difficult areas and rivers to navigate for the sailing and boating community and is known as an international hub but also one of the most difficult waterways to navigate across the world.

We saw that, unfortunately, as my honourable friend outlined. I remember very early in my career as a member of Parliament for Eastleigh, we had a case in 2020 there Emily Lewis, who was on a fast boat and had charted that, she was tragically killed after being catapulted out of that fast boat when she had a bouy at 44 miles an hour and there were two manslaughter charges for failure to secure safe navigation for someone that had chartered a boat.

The honourable gentleman is right to outlined that we need education but I would put it to the House and minister that proper education, not only for those who enter water through Seaside, lakes, rivers, but also people using it on a daily basis. We have the whole of the river and we have got sailors, people on motor boats, kayaks, many people use the river. It is intrinsic to the identity of those who grew up in my constituency and with the hot weather that we are going to have this weekend, I and myself will be going out onto the river to kayak.

I am aware of the intrinsic dangers that has on a river such as the one in my constituency and is vitally important that we educate from a very early age. I outline in terms of colleagues being aware of of colleagues being aware of independent lifeboats, we have some that have been called out over 60 times this year and we must raise awareness because they play an important educational role too many and I was delighted to be a founding member of the independent lifeboat Association alongside our former colleague and I would encourage all the members here to get in touch and raise awareness of water safety.

The honourable gentleman highlighted the key variations of where people have access to swimming pools and water education and as I indicated in the intervention, he will be aware of many schools that had school closures and this is not a political point at all because we've been in control of the administration and we have had a different colour of national governance and there is a reduction of funding with local authorities and many schools have had to close pools but also those partnerships to make sure that kids are taken to local leisure centres to have school lessons and that is something that has reduced as well and when I was young and growing up in Lewisham, the school bus would in Lewisham, the school bus would come and take me to the swimming bath every week for a lesson and that has diminished and is vitally important to work on that across the parties to make sure we get the swimming lessons and the education delivered to people across the UK.

As I said, it's not just young people because I went out and my kayak a couple of summers ago and there was an older gentleman who was clicking on when cold water and had lost energy and would have died if I had not gone past him as my honourable friend Jerry and rested him. He did not have a late preserver on and was called, running out of energy, clinging to his kayak, and we got him medical attention. It's frustrating it happens but it still does and that is why the measures must be for young people but all users and I would congratulate the honourable gentleman and all of those who will speak in the debate and he has my commitment alongside that of my honourable friend and I'm sure when the shadow minister stands up to speech, this is a cross-party issue that we all need to work on and I wish him well in his endeavours.



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I start by thanking the Member for Southampton for bringing this for Southampton for bringing this debate and for the work that he is doing on this. It is extremely important and I extend my important and I extend my compliments to his constituent that we heard from during the week and given the circumstances, the campaign is brave and her words were inspiring and I wanted to pay inspiring and I wanted to pay tribute to her as well. I come to this debate because it is a situation that the Zacada
15:53
James Asser Portrait James Asser MP (West Ham and Beckton, Labour)
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situation that the Zacada constituency recently which -- a situation that occurred in my constituency recently. I will not go into the details. It's fresh. I lost the constituent earlier in the spring and the huge impact and was a huge trouble for her family. I want to pass on my deepest condolences to her family and them should be House will share it. Also, extending congratulations and thanks to emergency services, search and rescue, people who stepped in to help on that occasion, which was obviously something that had a huge impact on the community.

This debate is pertinent for my constituency. I am surrounded by water in East London and I have rivers to my east, west, and the River Thames to the south, and there are huge amounts of dock lines including the Royal docks with large open spaces of water and that was built at a time when there was a lot of shipping and with that comes open causeways which brings another aspect of water safely because much of them are still in use and there are reserved industrial spaces and there is education required around that.

People forget that lots of the River Thames is still a working river and there is a lot of industry at my end and all the other bits that go up and down and so education is hugely important for where I am. That means the importance of safety and education covering a wide range of things is important and I think that there is a huge opportunity in terms of working with schools and youth clubs and community groups and young people to try to get the education across and I'm lucky to have active sea scouts and cadets.

They are my car people who can work with this. I am of an age where I can remember public information films from the Central Office of Information, which disappeared in 2012. We do not have that type of programming anymore although there are smiles around the chamber. I was taught to cross the road by Kevin Keegan and I remember him as Jimmy who through his first him as Jimmy who through his first big into the pylon.

It was also the spirit of dark and lonely water. The fact I can remember those 40 years on, and if you look online there is a lot that was brought up, this shows that this campaigning does work and it sticks in the mind and it seems to me that one thing we lack is a national campaign. They are as perhaps a degree of agony that we did these things in the predigital age and we are in an age of social media and TikTok and the rest and this is something we could work on and share with schools and youth groups and they could take advantage of it.

I hope we might get to the point where we can look at this and get back to sharing and producing this and perhaps children will remember and tell their children down the line. A second thing to touch on is to do with the scope of the statutory duty and that the APPG we were told by fire chiefs that there is a lack of statutory duty which seems like a gap in services at the moment. I have had a number of incidents in my constituency with the Fire Brigade coming out and we have had suicide attempts in the waterways and they are magnificent and do a wonderful job but the fact that there is no statutory duty is a gap and this is an important change and we have two deal with that.

The honourable member talked about the marine policy unit which receives over 2000 calls a year on water safety. The risk grows in the summer, the hot weather. We have children jumping in all the time. This is a pertinent debate and something that is pressing as we move to the summer with the hot weather. I will finish with a couple of requests for the Frontbench. Firstly, we look at a comprehensive education plan and working with schools and at a national level and taking advantage of modern allergy.

Also, looking at the need for a statutory duty so that it is enshrined in law in the way that people expect it to be. Hopefully, by doing that, we can take a couple of steps to making sure your family has to go through the fabric my constituent did earlier -- the heartbreak that my constituent did early in the spring.

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I thank the Member for securing this debate. Shrewsbury is famous for being looked at by the River Severn which is a source of beauty Severn which is a source of beauty and livelihood for my constituency but also the source of 14 deaths in the last 14 years. Overwhelmingly, these occur at the weekends, in the evenings, by men, sometimes after a evenings, by men, sometimes after a night out and sometimes because of mental health and sometimes the two mental health and sometimes the two factors combined.

Fatally, in April in April 2022, we had two deaths in in April 2022, we had two deaths in quick succession on the river with quick succession on the river with And it brought the time together to say we'd had too many and had to do something. We launched a water
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Julia Buckley Portrait Julia Buckley MP (Shrewsbury, Labour)
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something. We launched a water safety campaign and set up a new water safety action group, funded by the local police. We set up safer routes and signage on the river and cut funding for increased solar lighting and set up free online what are safety courses for schools, colleges, clubs. We had a poster campaign in pubs and clubs and the Member for West Ham will be delighted to hear that we created videos which were broadcast in pubs and put out on social media.

They told the story of what could go wrong. We educated stuff about not over seven alcohol, when too much is too much. We train them in mental health response and working with street pastors and we had free trading with the RNLI and looked at getting help from local businesses. We got funding for CCTV and set up a team of Rangers and taxi marshals to help people get home safely late in the evening. I'm proud of my town, of how we took this on and said that we do not want this to happen in Shrewsbury and I'm proud to tell you the number of deaths has reduced slightly.

I pay tribute to the local stakeholders. They responded so quickly and thoroughly to what we considered to be an emergency and they have supported the local Can we thank Shropshire Council and Shrewsbury Council, and the funding and support for Westerners who police, the street pastors, the Facebook group of our local residents make our river safer, because together as communities we can help to move the dial. Thank

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you. Dr Sullivan.

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Dr Sullivan. I would like to thank my right honourable friend for leading honourable friend for leading today's incredible debate. It's a today's incredible debate. It's a very important issue and it's felt by myself and many constituents. It by myself and many constituents. It was only a few weeks ago at the end of May that two children entered the River Thames in Gravesend. One thankfully was rescued, one tragically lost her life. It's an incredibly heartbreaking accident incredibly heartbreaking accident and I pass on my deepest condolences to their family and friends and the to their family and friends and the community.

I cannot imagine the pain of their loss, similar to so many members who have shared stories members who have shared stories today. I would like to place on record my gratitude for those who work so hard in efforts to save that work so hard in efforts to save that young girls live, who supported our community through this difficult time. Including the coastguard, RNLI, the Port authority, the RNLI, the Port authority, the emergency services and the passerby that seeing a young girl in trouble jumped in and tried to save her, and jumped in and tried to save her, and indeed saved the little boy at that time.

The work these organisations
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Lauren Sullivan Portrait Dr Lauren Sullivan MP (Gravesham, Labour)
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do is amendable and invaluable to residents who are on the River Thames. The River Thames often looks calm, tranquil, on its surface. But underneath those rips and currents underneath those rips and currents are incredibly dangerous. We are lucky to have a RNLI station in Gravesend, and lucky to have the Gravesend, and lucky to have the Port of London authority in Gravesend, that chaperoned the Gravesend, that chaperoned the hugely busy motorway boats on our London city. The RNLI is an London city.

The RNLI is an excellent charity and I thank them for their educational work, the work of their volunteers is incredible. But I would fail if I didn't mention those who are choosing bridges to those who are choosing bridges to end their lives. We must do all we can to prevent those, having the can to prevent those, having the feeling that that is the only option. So I thank the RNLI and the option. So I thank the RNLI and the Port of London authority and even the Thames Clipper for saving those and hopefully giving them another and hopefully giving them another chance at life.

Learning to swim from a young age is incredibly important, and it's great that it is on the national curriculum. But I do hear and stand with the member for Southampton in that we can do more in this space. But swimming in the Thames, certainly near Gravesend, will not be enough. So the public awareness campaigns, especially through the medium of social media, is going to be crucial. We must avoid future tragedies and deaths, avoid future tragedies and deaths, so I urge the government to work closely with local authorities, emergency services and organisations to identify black spots along our rivers and coastlines to see where further safety measures are needed.

Our community has been shaken by the recent tragedy, we owe it to all those who have lost their lives in similar circumstances to take every possible step to prevent such accidents in the future. Once again I thank the colleague for bringing this incredibly important issue to the house today, and I am proud to stand in support of raising awareness and collaboration to improve water safety across the nation.

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Can I suggest that we have a four-minute time-limit, let us start with Josh Newbury.

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I would like to thank my honourable friend for securing today's debate, particularly during today's debate, particularly during drowning prevention week. I would drowning prevention week. I would like to speak of not just the risks of wild and open water swimming but also the benefits it can offer when done safely and responsibly. done safely and responsibly. Specifically I would like to address concerns around the lake at the former quarry in the neighbouring constituency, and the reservoir which although it falls within the constituency of my friend from constituency of my friend from Lichfield is a much loved site often used by my own constituents who feel used by my own constituents who feel a strong sense of ownership before a rebrand was known as the Norton rebrand was known as the Norton pool.

The member for Lichfield was hoping to be here today but is unable to, he shares concerns that I
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Josh Newbury Portrait Josh Newbury MP (Cannock Chase, Labour)
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unable to, he shares concerns that I raise. As the nights were longer and the grow warmer they become popular destinations for families to cool off. The appealing though it may be, the risk of swimming in open water can affect everyone, called WaterSure, rip currents, a lack of safe exit from the water, cuts caused by hidden objects underwater, a lack of preparation or ways to call for help. Being safe is crucial. According to the National Water Safety Forum on average 90 people drowned per year when swimming in open water, I know all of us will want to make sure none of our constituents become one of the 90.

Tragically, six years ago a 21- year-old man drowned while saving a nine-year-old girl from the water. His bravery shouldn't be forgotten, nor should the circumstances that led to such a loss. From memory I believe this incident involved a inflatable, which in deep water was pulled some 30 or 40 metres out into the reservoir. Yet later in that summer and in summers since we have seen children on inflatables in the water again. This genuinely is a threat to life, especially for children.

I want to urge my constituents not to swimming in chase water, unless it's with an open water swimming group which I will come unto. At the quarry near Cannock it simply is not safe to enter the water. Hidden beneath the surface like particular risks, submerged machinery and toxic contaminants. This creates an unforeseen web of entitlement, whilst sheer drop-offs can turn a step into a deadly fall. This isn't about discouraging people from enjoying the outdoors, quite the opposite. When open water swimming is done properly it can be incredibly rewarding.

Staying safe can be done by checking the weather, being aware of where to exit the water and making sure you have kit prepared, wearing a brightly coloured swimming Cap. Compulsory toe floats and the national open water safety system. The wristband system allows people to get safety details immediately. With training available people are a -- able to enjoy open water swimming and stay safe. I would like to thank all the groups like the chase water activity centre Andy water centre, here 52 and the water sailing club.

With the beautiful weather upon us it's important we talk about ways to make open water swimming safe. We can start to bring the number of these tragedies down. No one should lose their life for a moment of fun, no family should suffer grief from a death that could have been prevented. This isn't about trying to stop people enjoying the outdoors, it's about giving them the information and tools they need to

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do so safely and confidently. I would like to thank the
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Claire Hughes Portrait Claire Hughes MP (Bangor Aberconwy, Labour)
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I would like to thank the honourable member for securing this debate today. It's a timely issue debate today. It's a timely issue and debate, specifically with the hot weather we are seeing and the number of people going into the water I'm sure this weekend. I am proud to represent my constituency, it's coastal and scenic, home to some of the stunning beaches lakes and waterfalls. These areas are cherished by residents and visitors alike. Sadly, people in my constituency no very well the pain and devastation caused when something goes wrong.

There won't be a single person across my whole constituency at some point whose life hasn't been touched by a tragedy involving drowning. These accidents and fatalities are devastating, not just in terms of the individuals and families affected, but also for the emergency services and organisations such as the coastguard, RNLI and mountain rescue teams who are tasked with responding. So much of this painstaking work the search and rescue carry out is done by volunteers. I want to put on record my thanks to them as well as my deepest condolences to everyone affected by these incidents.

These are not just physical work, it's caused emotional work, and no more so than when these incidents involve young people and children. One thing brought to my attention and I want to bring into the House's attention is the specific issue around destinations being promoted on social media platforms such as tick-tock and Instagram. Emergency services are responding to a huge number, big spikes in visitors coming to our area to come to these secluded legs, amazing beaches and tucked away viewpoints.

Promoted as hidden gems, but people are coming without being aware of the dangers. I understand the Minister for education is not necessarily involved directly with online safety, but I did something I believe it would be wonderful if the government could address this and perhaps the Minister could discuss this with colleagues on how social media platforms could be encouraged. We talked about the potential for social media campaigns to be influential, especially when talking to young people. What I would like the social media platforms to be more aware of their responsibilities in terms of highlighting water safety education, and also the dangers to perhaps content creators.

We definitely want people to come and visit North Wales, we want them to enjoy our lakes and rivers. I am in no way blaming anyone who ever wants to call for help. I have two teenage children, they will be out enjoying the water this weekend as well many others. I just want to make sure this is really a cross societal and cross governmental approach towards water education. If the Minister could perhaps raise this with colleagues in government I would be grateful, I believe it is something we should all be paying real attention to, online as well as in the real world.

Thank you.

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Sam Laycock, that's a name most

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Sam Laycock, that's a name most honourable members in this room before today will not have heard of. But it's my job to make sure that 16-year-old's legacy doesn't end four years ago when he was swimming four years ago when he was swimming in the South Yorkshire reservoir with his friends. It's a name that with his friends. It's a name that today, Sam, I want imprinted on everyone's brain and etched in our hearts. I will do that in the name hearts.

I will do that in the name of Sam, but for his father and mum,
16:12
Lee Pitcher Portrait Lee Pitcher MP (Doncaster East and the Isle of Axholme, Labour)
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whose dad came yesterday, Simon, when I talked about private members' bill on safety in water in particular. I met Sam's dad for the first time a couple of summers ago. He handed me a picture of Sam that day, at the fire station, when many of the firefighters and service people were showing how to rescue someone safely from water. Sam's dad does that week in and week out, tirelessly. In his eyes yesterday I could see the anguish, that call that he got and the difference it makes to him to be able to go and educate people, children and their families about swimming safety in water.

And what it can mean to protect lives in the future. Unfortunately Sam if you look back in 2023 there were another 236 or so Sam's out there. 236 friends or colleagues who got the horrible knock at the door or the awful phone call. 50% of drownings actually happen in the months of June, July and August. So half of all drownings happen in the next three months of this year. Of course it is hot, and this year in particular has been superhot.

So that whether is only a bigger risk in terms of the potential numbers that can join Sam. 5.8 million children finish their GCSEs today or tomorrow, and Sam died on the day he finished his GCSEs and went swimming with his friends to celebrate. Of course, across the UK we have some of the most beautiful watercourses. We have 40,000 lakes, 43 miles of rivers, we've got 22 major rivers, reservoirs, 273 major reservoirs, 600 designated beaches. Opportunities for any of those children to go and swim and just try it may be for the first time.

I have to say, water can be good. There is a balance, what is good for physical health and mental health. And it is a great source for our communities around tourism and sports and leisure. 7.5 million people have taken part in open water swimming. One of those is Liberty James, who lives in my community and works in lives in my community and works in my community. She has shown, she is a world due at a later, she has learned to swim recently through her fear of water and has shown how it can build your resilience and confidence.

When you think about the education we've got, the most important thing is education because can't protect all those sites I have talked about. That is why proud that this week my parliamentary bill had a reception and it has compulsory education as part of the legal duty on this government. That will save lives. The reason it will save lives is for every reason we are here today, we came because our job is to enrich lives, it is to save lives, and to protect lives. Sam Laycock's story doesn't need to end that day four years ago, in these to become a legacy.

He may not go on to fulfil the dreams he had on that day he finished his GCSEs, but his legacy can and will allow others to fulfil can and will allow others to fulfil

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Firstly, I thank the honourable member for securing this important member for securing this important debate. I declare an interest. debate. I declare an interest. Earlier this month I posted an event on behalf of the group working on behalf of the group working across the UK and Ireland, working together to bring outdoor swimming pools to people in their communities
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16:18
Phil Brickell Portrait Phil Brickell MP (Bolton West, Labour)
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I pay tribute to my honourable friend for leading this debate. I am someone who spends many hours out and about on rivers and lakes, on white water, in a kayak, moving water, on the coastline, spending time on and in what is a tremendous drawer. It does come with risks. Close to my Bolton West constituency, a number of tragedies had been seen over the years. One of my constituents were sadly found drowned in the reservoir in 2017.

Recently, a 17-year-old died last year after getting into difficulty, having lost control of his canoe. We must learn from these incidents to prevent similar tragedies from happening again. With that in mind I rise to make the case for further investment in education to unlock the potential of safely being in, on, close to water. After all, we owe it to Donna, Joseph, everyone around the country who has lost a loved one to drowning to make the water sector.

Drowning is one of the leading causes of accidental death, particularly among young people. The approach to water safety here remains fragmented. We have national strategies for fire prevention and public health but not for water safety. As an island nation proud of maritime history, it is time to change that approach and tighten the government in my view developed a comprehensive national water safety strategy that brings together civil servants, local authorities, schools, emergency services and voluntary organisations to raise awareness and, critically, prevent future tragedies.

There are already some brilliant campaigns which have simple and positive messaging and how if that is positioned in the right places could have a demonstrable impact on reducing issues. The Paddle Safe campaign is a good example of what can be done. That initiative contains five key messages to raise awareness of how to prepare for any type of paddling and stay safe on any type of water. Those messages are simple and easy to remember. One, always wear a buoyancy aid, two, tell someone where you're going, three, carrier Vodafone, four, check the weather, five, know your limits.

I have seen the dangers of not heeding those messages and that is why I know that education must be at the heart of the response. Every child should leave school with basic water safety knowledge, how to recognise danger, act in an emergency, enjoy what a city. It is why I am a passionate advocate for a swimming remaining a key component of the National Curriculum, as my honourable friend mentioned.

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Austerity hit access to swimming lessons, as evidenced by 35% of lessons, as evidenced by 35% of children from low income families able to swim 25% are needed compared able to swim 25% are needed compared to 82% from affluent families. Does my honourable friend agree that my honourable friend agree that these mandatory requirements should be in the National Curriculum for all primary schools.

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I entirely agree with the remark she makes about improving education and how fundamental it is. I support and how fundamental it is. I support calls for campaigns to ensure young people love essential outdoor skills people love essential outdoor skills including risk management, swimming, including risk management, swimming, in the early years and threats killing and those campaigns are organised by authorities that the organised by authorities that the Canal Trust and I was particularly Canal Trust and I was particularly pleased to recently see an event at the local leisure centre to mark Drowning Awareness Week to make sure people are aware of the risks and people are aware of the risks and how to manage them.

Prevention goes hand in hand with responsibility and waterways are places of environmental and economic value as well and often access is restricted or confusing or poorly enforced and this leads to dangerous access. If people want to swim on a hot day like today, we must assume that they will find a way to do it and so we must be more proactive and have a role for landowners and managers to accurately assess risk, as my honourable friend mentioned earlier in this debate.

Finally, we cannot ignore the role of investment. Rescue services including hard- working volunteers at the coastguard and the mountain rescue teams such as the team is in my constituency do tremendous work and so do training providers and the need sustained, reliable funding. There is better signage, improved swimming spots, stronger penalties for those who pollute what is, or fail to take proper safety measures, it is essential. There are three key components. Improving education, safety, and securing and improving access.

That will ensure children, whether they want to swim, spend the day in and around water, they can do so in a safe manner.

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I thank my honourable friend for bringing this critical debate. We bringing this critical debate. We think a lot about water safety in my constituency. Within the catchment, it covers my constituency and some neighbouring ones, and we also have neighbouring ones, and we also have a number of other rivers and we have a number of other rivers and we have a charity which is working to improve the local river and along improve the local river and along with the fire and rescue service, the advocate for what a city as well and do a great job.

Lancashire is one of the highest risk counties in one of the highest risk counties in the UK for water safety, likely due the UK for water safety, likely due to the geography of course, rivers, canals, reservoirs. One thing that canals, reservoirs. One thing that has changed quite a lot in recent years in the country is that people move around more. I grew up in my constituency as it was built into me constituency as it was built into me not to swim in open water and reservoirs arguing you've the dangerous areas where at the Ritz.

dangerous areas where at the Ritz. The more transient population, is more critical that we have universal education to make sure people who have not gone up around water understand this. I'm also keen to understand this. I'm also keen to raise that alongside the excellent case being made for lessons in schools, is critical for children to be able to learn what a confidence through their own exploration and play and that requires local accessible pools to explore, as others have said.

I'm grateful to those working with me locally to begin a campaign for a proper public swimming pool in my constituency which is one of the things most requested on the doorstep there. Finally, can I take this opportunity to encourage all adults who have never felt fully comfortable swimming that it is never too late to learn. I never learned to swim as a child but a few years ago when my daughter started diving under the water, something I could not do, from a young age, I realised I could from a young age, I realised I could not encourage her to do something I cannot do myself.

It's humbling to be 30-something and taking swimming be 30-something and taking swimming lessons but I'm grateful to Karen Smith, a legendary swimming teacher, Smith, a legendary swimming teacher, for her assistance. The first time I swam 30 length was a special moment swam 30 length was a special moment and I'm grateful I can be confident and have adventures of my family and the joy and confidence should be available to everyone in this island available to everyone in this island nation and I thank my honourable friend for in this matter.
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16:28
Amanda Martin Portrait Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)
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older pupils. However, if we are to teach children to swim, we must ensure we have access to facilities and affordable facilities. That is and affordable facilities. That is where we will do the lesson. I'm where we will do the lesson. I'm pleased the local lido is having a revamp and we must ensure that revamp and we must ensure that transport is a real option and affordable. I want to echo praise and promotion for the role of the and promotion for the role of the RNLI and the work they are undertaking to help us.

They have fantastic resources and there is no need to reinvent the wheel. As well need to reinvent the wheel. As well as the local independent Lightfoot Association, where I have been and seen and worked with them on their seen and worked with them on their great work. That is alongside the great work. That is alongside the Portsmouth RNLI and the Southsea Lifeboat Volunteers and local police Lifeboat Volunteers and local police and fire service, I thank them for going the extra mile. We must raise awareness but it also must be in awareness but it also must be in practice to save lives.

My practice to save lives. My honourable friend noted and I also remember a childhood public service broadcaster some 40 years ago. They work. It would be a great use of work. It would be a great use of online platforms. In Portsmouth North, where children live near the sea, near ponds and shorelines, the reforms of water safety, education and swimming are not optional, they are essential. I support the step the government is taking to ensure every child leaves school with essential life-saving skills and I support the cause from my honourable friend and I'm pleased to work with him and others on a national strategy for water safety.

It is a reality for our kids and all of our communities.
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16:30
Steff Aquarone Portrait Steff Aquarone MP (North Norfolk, Liberal Democrat)
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the danger can react to them and be ready for when things go wrong which is important as learning to swim in the first place. Other honourable friend have raised important points and details and I'm pleased to see so many colleagues from across the House who were present and other debates recently in their place. This is then building here, clearly. To the point made by the honourable member, about the calls for ministerial responsibility, it could fit well within the portfolio of fit well within the portfolio of Members who have paid close attention in the House will know we are a close coastal community, our beaches and sees our beloved by residents and tourists alike.

For those who are confident in the water they can incredibly be might also be dangerous. The Norfolk Broads, fantastic rivers and chalk streams, this is not just a serious concern to me but to imaging who attends primary school in my constituency and wrote with her concern. She said throughout North Norfolk there are lots of wonderful rivers, part from that if people don't know how to swim they may follow in and drown. This is a tragic problem, she says, which affects people all round England.

If people want to walk around a river or lake and accidentally slip in and inhale the water their families would be distraught. I'm not asking for a law that people know how to swim, but I'm requesting your attention so you can review the problem if it persists. It might be a good idea to think about how this affects England as a whole. She closes by saying she knows there are life-saving rings dotted around but it's not enough, if a new more lives could be saved with a few more that could be used.

Swimming lessons are charged quite high, making it hard for people to teach their children to swim which may be part of the problem. I think members will agree that Imogen has summarised the problem and highlighted the issues just as well as any of us could have, despite being in primary school. What a safety can affect anyone of our constituents, potentially when they least expect it as Imogen points out. I agree we need to take a serious look at this across the House.

I hope the government will be able to provide not just reassurance but a promise of action to imaging and everyone concerned about this. The Liberal Democrats are committed to mandatory swimming lessons in school and we are calling on the government to ensure the gaps are addressed. It's a real worry for those of us in rural and coastal communities who worry for the safety of our young people in rivers and seas. To achieve this we have to invest more in our local swimming pools. I'm delighted that in North Norfolk in the past few years we have built the reef swimming pool in Sheringham, and real state-of-the- art facilities which are a great asset to the community.

I'm equally delighted that the LibDem council which secured funding for a development of the activity centre, I will give way.

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First of all I congratulate the honourable member for his first outing on the frontbench. Doing a outing on the frontbench. Doing a very good job. Second of all, I won't quibble on who it was that obtained funding from the Conservative government, the Conservative member of Parliament or Conservative member of Parliament or the Liberal Democrat District Council. Thirdly, can I join him in Council. Thirdly, can I join him in welcoming the development of having a swimming pool, does he agree with

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me it will go a long way in helping people learn to swim in the surrounding area? Let me be clear, everyone

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Let me be clear, everyone involved in securing that bid deserves congratulations, I totally deserves congratulations, I totally agree with him. I do know, I think this is the point he's making, that this is the point he's making, that many in the area and nearby villages are delighted by the news and are delighted by the news and thrilled with the hard work that went into securing it. Liberal Democrats also want to end the Democrats also want to end the closure of swimming pools by designating them as critical health designating them as critical health infrastructure.

This would enshrined protections into law meaning local government would have a duty not to government would have a duty not to cut the services and maintain adequate funding to keep them open. Of course, those swimming are not just doing so in pools, many enjoy wild and open water swimming. In order to do that we have to clean up our rivers and seas after years of scandalous sewage dumping. Only 14% of rivers and lakes in England are in good ecological health. Last year water companies dumped sewage over 100,000 times into bathing water status areas.

That's unacceptable, we have to crackdown on the years of unchecked profiteering and environmental damage the water companies have caused. We need tough new laws to protect the environment and the health of those who enjoy it. We won't stand for it a moment it. We won't stand for it a moment longer in North Norfolk. To secure the water safety we need we have to have strong education, enabled by strong facilities, and clean environments. If we do this then imaging and people of all ages can enjoy the rivers and seas in North Norfolk and around our country with confidence and safety for years to

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come. I start by paying tribute to the

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I start by paying tribute to the honourable member for Southampton for leading this important debate and doing such a good job of setting out all the different issues at out all the different issues at stake. Although he covered a huge amount of ground in his opening statement, we have had excellent speeches from across the house this afternoon and everyone has added important points. We've heard important points. We've heard excellent speeches from members from excellent speeches from members from Oxford East, Salford, at various Oxford East, Salford, at various points it will stay with me.

My honourable friend from Solihull eased raised the important issue of eased raised the important issue of safety ice and the terrible case of his young constituents. The member his young constituents. The member for Esher and Walton caught my for Esher and Walton caught my attention with her description of the Barbados of south London, which I enjoyed, and I strongly agree with I enjoyed, and I strongly agree with her tribute to water safety groups. The member for Hamble Valley talked The member for Hamble Valley talked about the terrible Emily Lewis case, and the issue of safety on boats.

A and the issue of safety on boats. A crucial part of this. The member for West Ham and Beckton raised the issue of the central office for information which stayed with all of us, particularly the chilling one, which we all saw. While the member for Banga talked about what social media could do in this case. The member for Shrewsbury made an important point about not drinking and swimming, critical issues. The member for Cannock talked about the benefits of swimming outside, yet there are certain places that are just not safe to swim in.

And a number of other members make that point about not everyone -- everyone not knowing where they are. The member for Doncaster East made an important speech, not just talking about Sam and his father but also his private members' bill on water safety. We also had a really interesting contribution from the member for North Ayrshire, a beautiful constituency which I associate with seaside holidays. A surprising fact of her speech that this is not on the curriculum in Scotland, which seems like an obvious first step.

The member for Middlesbrough East Cleveland talked about the awful case of the missing child in his constituency. We hope all the best for that family. I will turn in a moment to some of the things the last government did, and I do so not just to say anything is wonderful, we have been talking about other things we can do to go further, but I thought it might be a way of prompting further reflections on what more we can do. As has already been mentioned, the government has updated the national curriculum to put swimming and water safety education into it in 2013, surprising it was so late.

That's where we got this new rule that we should be taught to swim at least 25 metres. A few people talked about facilities, the last government announced the first 10 million and then 57 million to open up access to pools in schools. It's sad to see good facilities not being used after school hours, we obviously want to do more of that. That enabled hundred 20 schools to open up their pools more broadly than they had been doing. We work with some of the brilliant organisations out there, the water National safety Forum, groups like the RNLI, Swim England, the lifesaving Society and many more.

We heard from a number of members about local campaigns that can be so powerful, I pay tribute to all the people involved. One of the good things I was involved in was the sugar tax which we used to create then expand PE and sport premium, which really helped with PE in schools and provided funding for it. It doubled the funding and included water education. But there is still much more to be done. Still about 1/3 of adults who can't swim, about 14 million adults.

I must pay tribute to the honourable member for Ribble Valley for leading by example, learning as an adult, good on you for doing that. All of us are affected by these important issues, even constituencies faraway from the sea. People with metal detectors, fishing in the canal, pulling out hand grenades. This is relevant everywhere. Christmas a one-year-old everywhere. Christmas a one-year-old girl was rescued from a river at girl was rescued from a river at Christmas time, it shows you this is an issue hugely important for all of us.

This has been an important debate, we welcome the governments debate, we welcome the governments decision to look carefully at what more can be done to build on statutory guidance that is there and statutory guidance that is there and update it. I think we have had excellent contributions from all sides of the house and I look sides of the house and I look forward to the Ministers comments. forward to the Ministers comments.
16:41
Catherine McKinnell Portrait Catherine McKinnell MP, Minister of State (Education) (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)
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Thank you. I join the congratulations for my honourable friend for securing a debate on this incredibly important topic in this timely week. And for his incredibly powerful opening speech. I was truly saddened to hear of the death of his constituent, Joe Abbas, alongside sooner Khan at Bournemouth beach in June 2023. I extend my heartfelt condolences to their families. I pay tribute to Vanessa for her campaigning. I also want to thank the honourable member for Harborough for paying a thorough tribute to all the contributions to this debate today.

He has saved me the task, if I'm honest. He did real credit to the contributions that have been very widespread, but really important in contributing to this debate. I think there are a number of members today who are clearly working very hard on these issues and in Parliament. It's a real honour to be in the position of being able to work with you to take forward these issues. I welcome my honourable friend's engagement on this, I wish him every success in his new role as the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on water safety education.

Can I just say that by holding this debate today we alert more people to this issue. We spread that understanding, particularly in this hot weather, but many people reference. The dangers of water. And as mentioned by the member for Oxford East, remembering those, and many names have been mentioned today, many tragic stories. But remembering them today we save lives, and we prevent this from happening to others. I want to put on record as well how sorry I am to hear about search Bennett, who is still missing.

My thoughts go out to her and her family and friends and the rescue services working hard to find her. This is a timely debate as we mark the Royal Life Saving Society drowning prevention week, I am pleased to support this important campaign. Every year it reminds us of the save -- truth that drowning is one of the leading causes of death the children in the UK. As parents, carers and educators we have a shared responsibility to ensure every child understands the fundamentals of water safety.

By exposing children to conversations about water safety and the practical learning we can provide them with we can equip children with the knowledge and skills to recognise danger, to know how to respond in an emergency, and how to enjoy water safety. Because that is fundamentally what we want to encourage children to do. Schools

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have a vital role. I'm grateful to the honourable

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I'm grateful to the honourable Lady, she knows she has my respect and regard. Swimming is critical, of and regard. Swimming is critical, of course it is true that some people can swim and still get into trouble. If you can't swim et al. You are at much greater risk. Will she work with colleagues across the House with colleagues across the House including at the leisure centre to make sure there is good swimming facilities across the whole of our nation.

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nation. Indeed he is right to rise fundamental of swimming, but I think fundamental of swimming, but I think it is also important to recognise and I think it has come across very strongly in this debate that it is not enough. Clearly it's the not enough. Clearly it's the foundation though that every child foundation though that every child should have. Yes, of course I think it's across government effort, as he will know, to make sure we do have the facilities that children and the facilities that children and everyone can use to learn how to swim.

The national curriculum for PE has been noted already, it does include the mandatory requirements include the mandatory requirements on swimming and water safety at primary school. As has been acknowledged, people should be acknowledged, people should be taught to swim 25 metres unaided, and perform a range of strokes and perform safe self rescue in different water based situations. Currently academies and free schools are not required to follow the national curriculum but they do have to provide a broad and balanced curriculum, but the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill making its way through this house does put that requirement on all state funded schools to teach that curriculum, and once implemented it will extend the requirement to teach swimming and water safety to all state funded schools.

Data from sport England active life survey reported in 2024 that 95.2% of people -- state private schools surveyed said they do provide swimming lessons. We want all pupils to have the opportunities to learn how to swim, support is available as has been highlighted through the PE and sport premium. And a range of guidance and support is available from sector organisations. We are working closely with sector experts including the Royal life saving Society UK, the lifeboat Institute, Swim England, to ensure all schools have access to high-quality resources to provide swimming and resources to provide swimming and I was delighted to announce last week that the PE and sport premium will continue, £320 for the upcoming year.

They can provide training, support for pupils at that additional support to reach the required standard in the National Curriculum after they have completed core safety and swimming lessons. Alongside water safety and PE lessons, skills currently integrate water safety into personal safety health economic programs and so equipping students with an understanding of risk and the knowledge to make safe decisions, the Water Safety Code provides a platform for safety, providing simple and easy information to keep people safe and that is why we are working to make sure that teaching pupils the court at primary and secondary school will feature in the new strategy guidance which will be published shortly and I hope it responds to the request and concern of many honourable members that have been raised today.

I hope it is reassuring. During my time as the chair of the Petitions Committee, on the other side of the House, I work closely on this issue of water safety alongside Rebecca Ramsay who they member for Southampton mention. She tragically lost her son and 2011. I'm pleased to be in the position where I can help to deliver better water safety education in schools and make meaningful progress, further progress on this issue so that no more families lose a child in these circumstances.

In 2024, the Department launched the independent curriculum and assessment review and it was to shape the V curriculum to make it accessible and the interim report was published in March and recognises growing challenges on subjects like PE and the lack of sport opportunities for people aged 16-19 and so I thank members of the National Water Safety Forum group for their contributions. We are considering evidence and we are keen to work with others on what will be included in the curriculum and also how we can support the implementation so we have high quality standards across all schools.

Every child deserves the best start in life regardless of background or ability and we must ensure that we do everything we can to achieve this. No child should miss out on the opportunity to learn to keep themselves safe in and around water. Last month I was pleased to a grant of up to £300,000 a year to a consortium to deliver Inclusion 2028 which will upscale teachers to deliver high quality physical education to SEND pupils and this Inclusion 2028 includes swimming and water lessons and by trading the champions to support this to their peers, creating new resources and working with disability support organisations and there have been the delivery of CPD to staff at leisure centres as well.



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I thank the Minister for giving way. I agree with everything she has outlined in terms of making sure lessons are delivered as early as possible as. Will she briefly possible as. Will she briefly outline and assure me on how she intends to ensure it is enforced intends to ensure it is enforced dandelion once the curriculum comes out?

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out? We are working on the content of the curriculum and we are working the curriculum and we are working with the sector on the delivery of with the sector on the delivery of these programs and I could go into detail on Ofsted and the changes we are making to accountability as well are making to accountability as well but I take the challenge and I will but I take the challenge and I will take it away as well because I agree that we have to not only saying children should have these things children should have these things but ensure they are armed with knowledge to keep them safe.

I know knowledge to keep them safe. I know a number of members, inspired by the a number of members, inspired by the Member for West Ham, have mentioned public information campaigns and it public information campaigns and it brought to mind a story from Newcastle. Six years ago, Evan and his friend were in Northumberland celebrating exams and lots of young people will be doing that at the moment. He got caught in a rip and was swept out to sea and as he lost sight of the beach he recalled an RNLI advert he had seen briefly before a film and everyone who falls unexpectedly into cold water wants to follow the same instinct and swim hard and fight cold water but when people fight, the chances are that they will lose.

Cold water makes you gasp uncontrollably and breathing water and you will drown but if you float. -- Breathe in water and you will drown. If you can control your breathing, you have a better chance of staying alive. Evan followed the advice and managed to hold onto consciousness for 45 minutes, until he was rescued and he is grateful to be alive because he knows that many do not have the opportunity and he did not learn this at school but from a public information campaign and so I will take with the asks that have been made and it's not for my depart but as a government, I think there have been many useful suggestions as part of the discussion today that we can take away and work on.

It is clear that water safety must be part of every child's education. Alongside the curriculum, there should be access to a wide range of engaging programs so young people can know how to enjoy the water safely and it can be done and should be done. I am delighted that representatives from a number of swimming authorities have agreed to meet with me to discuss the work they are doing to support water safety education in schools and I'm grateful for the ongoing work in this area and to the ongoing gentleman and APPG for water safety education and all those who contributed today.

My final word goes to the families who have been affected by the terrible loss of a loved one. The brave campaigning loved one. The brave campaigning

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Becky Ramsay is my constituent

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Becky Ramsay is my constituent and her son Dylan drowned in an abandoned quarry and it will never abandoned quarry and it will never be forgotten. The loss that she suffered and others have mentioned, suffered and others have mentioned, none of us can imagine. Becky does a great job of going to schools, educating, saving lives.
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Darren Paffey Portrait Darren Paffey MP (Southampton Itchen, Labour)
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educating, saving lives. Can I thank every member from all sides of the chamber who have taken sides of the chamber who have taken part in this debate. To mention a few key strands that certain people have made, because they are learning with things we have been asking for. An honourable friend mentioned the response which is often the first response to the tragedies and that it is not statutory but does she agree that a minister with responsibility for prevention might bring coherence because I know the Minister is hearing and there is a very necessary cross departmental aspect of this that needs to happen and I think some of these recommendations reflect that.

Other honourable members mentioned the information campaigns that are necessary and in particular . The potential to do good is great but too often it is not happening and so we must hold social media companies to account to make sure they are keeping young people say. The honourable member mentioned a community-led campaign and there is a real example to take there. My honourable friend, I met Sam's dad yesterday and I know that he appreciates the work my honourable friend is doing and I commend him for Sam's Law and I commend him and I'm sure we do.

I commend my honourable friend who, despite the focus on schools, some of this is taken that this is, but they made a salient point about why this must go wider and adults who are leading to school and also people who would benefit from that water safety education. We have heard during this debate about the wonderful variety of waterways that we enjoy and we have heard from the historical east to the tropical west, my honourable friend mentioned the neighbouring river and of course there is a number of other rivers in the area including when I share with my honourable friend and the keys and canals and Greater Manchester, the lidos, we are saying they must be enjoyed, but safely.

How do we move on from the current situation? I want to thank everyone who has added breadth to the appreciation of this issue as well as adding weight to the sense of urgency we must take. My honourable friends from across the chamber have demonstrated by the ability to swim and what happens in different waterways up and down the country is crucial and we have done that through heartbreaking personal accounts but I hope that the names and stories have not -- having been hurt you, will prompt action.

I'm encouraged to hear about the meetings taking place and I look forward to reading and engaging with the guidance and I remain of the view that this should be conditional and not pieced together by different approaches and I look forward to engaging further and ensuring that by Drowning Prevention Week 2026, we can have moved on, acted, saved more lives. We will be through what has been a hot summer and it will have been through winter and the honourable gentleman has rightly pointed out the dangers of ice as well.

I finish by thanking the backbench business committee who have spoken in this debate. My team have made today happen and I thank the various organisations which are helping us to move the dial on this issue and, finally and most importantly, to the incredible inspiration for me in this debate that she has done and her work is of national significance and I hope

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that she sees that today. The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye.". To the
16:59
None Portrait Adjournment: Impact of the McCloud remedy on public sector pensions
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opinion, say, "Aye.". To the contrary, say, "No." I think the ayes have it. The question is that

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this House do now adjourn. I rise today to discuss an issue

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I rise today to discuss an issue that I am sure affects my constituents in Edinburgh West but constituents in Edinburgh West but many across the UK. Since 2018, thousands of civil servants, teachers, doctors, nurses, police teachers, doctors, nurses, police officers, and firefighters have been waiting for the compensation that waiting for the compensation that they are entitled to through the McCloud remedy after changes that drilled changes to public sector pensions unfairly discriminated against young people. This impact the huge number of public servants including at least 400,000 civil servants and more than 500,000 servants and more than 500,000 teachers.

In Scotland, more than 13,000 police officers were impacted under mediation, as are around 90,000 NHS workers according to figures from the Scottish figures from the Scottish government. It is of course understandable that with so many understandable that with so many people needing remediation that there could be delays, particularly there could be delays, particularly for more complex cases are older cases that must be manually examined. They are having a significant impact on people's legs. -- Lives. -- Lives.

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These are having a significant impact on people's lives. I will

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give way. Can I thank her for securing an

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Can I thank her for securing an important debate, we've had a number of cases such as this in my own of cases such as this in my own officers well. Does she agree that constituents like Gavin who her -- constituents like Gavin who her -- served 25 years was forced to return to work because his incorrect to work because his incorrect pension was so low, does she agree that it is time we do much more to support hard-working public workers like Gavin to receive the full

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like Gavin to receive the full pensions they worked hard for. I thank the honourable member for

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I thank the honourable member for raising a good point that I will come onto later. I agree completely, because this has been particularly because this has been particularly difficult for people in light of the crises we've faced in recent years. The cost of living soaring, skyhigh The cost of living soaring, skyhigh energy bills. This is what happened to my constituent in Edinburgh West to my constituent in Edinburgh West two came to my office with issues on two came to my office with issues on the administration of it and the potential impact on other pension schemes.

One of my constituents in schemes. One of my constituents in Edinburgh West who was affected is a retired police officer who served 25 years. His pension scheme was forcibly changed in 2017 to the scheme that was found to be discriminatory. He retired in February 2023, with his 25% lump some on the assumption that the remedial scheme would be in place by October of that year. He estimates he is now owed more than £30,000, both in terms of his community lump some from the new scheme and the lower monthly pension.

He is also on thousands of -- among thousands of officers still awaiting their remediation letter from the pension authorities, despite claims that the number of officers receiving these has accelerated. Including in Scotland. Another constituent in Edinburgh West in the police force started working for Lothian and Borders police in 1996 and retired
17:04
Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine MP (Edinburgh West, Liberal Democrat)
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in 2022, knowing he would only receive his pension for his service receive his pension for his service between 1996 and 2015, whilst the remedy was calculated. He was told remedy was calculated. He was told at the time he would receive his remedial statement by April 2025, remedial statement by April 2025, three years after his retirement. He also estimates a loss of pension also estimates a loss of pension income of more than £30,000. Given that seven years of his service to that seven years of his service to our community was not counted when he first retired.

1/3 constituent of mine also raised the possible issue he faces when retiring with an NHS he faces when retiring with an NHS pension. The government's approach to NHS pension remedies means that pension growth will be calculated pension growth will be calculated under an older scheme from 2008. under an older scheme from 2008. Even if he believes this rollback leaves those in the middle of their careers vulnerable to artificial breaches of the annual pension allowance and significant income tax charges because of the setup of the charges because of the setup of the

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2008 scheme used for calculation. Can I first congratulate the honourable Lady for bringing this forward. To ascertain her focus on this, her focus is quite clearly on the McCloud remedy. It's had implications on tax for some members, some paying more and others who might just get a refund. My constituents are facing the same constituents are facing the same issues, will she agree that discussion with financial advisers is essential? And for those without access to financial advisers it has to be the NHS to provide the to be the NHS to provide the

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workshops to ensure NHS workers choices remain in reality. Erases a good point, it has

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Erases a good point, it has affected all our constituents in a different way. This is exactly the different way. This is exactly the sort of point I'm hoping the Minister may be able to address when replying. All of these cases we have replying. All of these cases we have mentioned show the impact that the remedy process has had on people who have dedicated their lives to serving our communities. It is serving our communities. It is unfair and it must be tackled.

I know that in written answers to myself and other honourable members myself and other honourable members the Ministers have said that it's up to individual pension schemes and their managers to implement the remedy, rather than the relevant government department. But this does government department. But this does not seem to be allowing these -- this does seem to be allowing these this does seem to be allowing these schemes to delay, or it's leaving them without the resources needed to them without the resources needed to process these claims at pace.

Could the Minister outline how the government works with these government works with these authorities to ensure rapid delivery of remedial page? What steps the government will take to ensure government will take to ensure pension authorities can also deliver RSS notices to speed up the processes of calculating and awarding remedial pay. This is particularly important for police pensions, as there does appear to be a severe backlog in issuing these notices to retired officers to allow them to make the choice under the law.

This is leaving my constituents and others facing years of further uncertainty in finances. As reference by the honourable member. Losing out on money they were entitled to. As policing is devolved to both Scotland and of course Northern Ireland, how is the government working with devolved administrations on these pension schemes to share best practice across departments, provide increased resource and finally give these public servants who served our communities, taught our children and kept us safe. Along, the safety security and financial security that they deserve for their retirement.

Surely they should be entitled to

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it. Thank you. I would like to start by congratulating and thanking the
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Emma Reynolds Portrait Emma Reynolds MP, The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Wycombe, Labour)
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by congratulating and thanking the honourable member on securing this debate. I am grateful for her speech, let me just agree with her that the people we are talking about keep us safe, keep us well, and have a true dedication to public service. I understand the point she is making. In my speech I want to talk a little more about the background to McCloud before talking about the progress that has been made today and what further steps the scheme managers need to take.

The McCloud remedy is by its nature a complex undertaking. I'm sure she will appreciate this. It applies to 20 public service pension schemes in the UK, and the scheme managers are responsible for ensuring the remedy is administered properly and in accordance with their statutory provisions. This issue arises at the introduction of a new pension scheme for public sector workers in 2014/15, and when introducing these pension schemes the government at the time gave what is called a transitional protection to older workers.

But as she set out, in 2018 it was found that these gave rise to unlawful discrimination on age, race and sex. In 2019 the government announced it would address this through the McCloud remedy. I want to point out there are two main elements to the remedy. The ongoing treatment of older and younger worker was closed by closing the older pension schemes and moving all into the new pension schemes relating to employment after 1 March 2022. However, adjusting the dissemination that occurred between 2014 and 2022 is considerably more complex.

As members will appreciate. whether they are better off in the older or newer schemes will depend on their individual employment histories and circumstances. And in some cases it will not be certain until they require. -- Retire. The choice given at the point of retirement for deferred members and is in the process of being rolled out for members who have already retired. It's also an intensive administrative challenge, and there are many different elements to this but the most crucial is that all those affected must be provided with individualised information about their pension entitlements during the 2015 to 2022 remedy period.

Three what is known as a remedial service statement, or RSS. In addition, a smaller group of members whose tax position during the remedy period may have changed need to be provided with a remedial pension saving statement, or are PSS. Given the complexity of the schemes we are also providing significant levels of guidance or online resources to help people understand the information they receive which is often very complex, as honourable members no because many have been in the position of receiving them.

There is also a dedicated HMRC digital services for those receiving and are PSS. There are processes in place to allow memos to pay additional tax, or for members to claim either a tax refund or compensation from the scheme where refund is impossible. Providing the statements to members together with other aspects of implement in the remedy is the response ability of the pension scheme managers. The larger schemes the teacher scheme in England and Wales and the service scheme across the UK the scheme manager is the relevant Secretary of State.

The local government police and fire schemes are administered locally which means each responsible authority has its own scheme manager who is responsible for the operation of the scheme in that area. The devolved administration, obviously very pertinent to the concerns she raised and to the honourable gentleman, have a responsibility for administering their schemes. The Scottish government has responsibility in Scotland, the Welsh government's responsibility for the firefighter scheme in Wales and the pension schemes in Northern Ireland are established under a separate legal framework and are the responsibility of the Northern Ireland government.

This means implementing the remedy across different schemes is complex and may be subject to different factors that affect one scheme but not necessarily another. The remedy itself varies across the schemes, reflecting the fact that the schemes themselves are specific to each workforce and have different benefit designs. This can be seen in different levels of progress the schemes have so far made. I am aware that across the police scheme in England and Wales around 90% of the numbers have been issued. And I understand the picture is similar in the police scheme in Scotland with 97% of immediate choice RSSs already issued.

Significant progress has been made elsewhere, the teacher scheme around 47%. This was already -- always anticipated that providing information to members would be challenging, reflected in the remedy. In particular the 2022 act sets out that for the provision of RSSs there is a deadline of 31 March 2025, or such later date as the scheme manager considers reasonable in all circumstances in the case of a particular member or a particular class of member. At this stage I think it's worth reflecting, though I was asked about delays, there have been concerns from honourable members in this debate about their constituents who are experiencing delays in receiving a remedy.

From delays in receiving a remedy. From the Dispatch Box as the Minister, I am standing in for the pensions Minister but I used to be the pensions Minister so I am familiar, I would encourage scheme managers to take every step possible to resolve cases as quickly as possible and to prioritise cases where individuals like the honourable Lady refer to. I would assure people that where there is an uplift interest will be paid in arrears so they won't lose out financially, but I do understand delays are frustrating.

As she will be aware, the overarching principle of the McCloud remedy is to put people back in the situation they would have been if the discrimination had not occurred. So in order to do this it's necessary to apply interest where payments should have been paid out in earlier date, I hope this is reassuring. Whether this is by the scheme or the member, in this debate is become more about the delays to the members from the scheme. Interest is applied at 8% when the scheme owes money to the member.

When the member owes money to the scheme interest is applied at the direct Saver rate, currently 3.5%. I hope the honourable Lady is reassured to an extent. We think it's right these decisions are made by scheme managers as they are the only ones in possession of full relevant information, that information and the variety of the different factors is complex. Saying that, the government is committed to ensuring all affected members are provided with the remedy they deserve as quickly as possible. Including that members already in receipt of pension benefits or approaching pension benefits or approaching Thereby, extending the deadline for an RSS, it's important the new deadlines are in place and robust plans to make sure this works.

Scheme managers must ensure the plans are properly communicated to pension scheme members to provide certainty. The pensions regulator must be kept informed of plans and progress and I know that schemes have been having these discussions with the regulator. There have been delays in other aspects of this including the provision of the RPSS to those who did them. It's difficult when people are kept waiting. It's important to schemes keep members informed and provide appropriate resources. I'm pleased to say the process of sending out the RPSSs is now 90% complete and some schemes have sent them all out but there are issues in other parts of the country and this is a very complex area.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, and if I have not answered all the questions, I will be happy to write to the audibility, given the importance of delivering the McCloud remedy public we have written on remaining plans and all of those affected by the McCloud remedy can be assured a robust process has been put in place and schemes are working to ensure members receive the support of information they require. I note the honourable Eddie has mentioned delays and the impact they are having.

They will have the opportunity to decide about the benefits in relation to their service. I thank you for bringing this matter to the House.

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The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as of that do now adjourn. As many as of that opinion, say, "Aye." The ayes have
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None Portrait Oral questions: Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
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