Justice and Security Bill [Lords]

David Winnick Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

First, I had a concession on the peers and now I have a concession on what appears to be an inherent contradiction.

It seems to me that these provisions meet the necessary requirements of a Committee that is sui generis and that they are entirely in accord with the extension of scrutiny and responsibility that the rest of the Bill provides.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Let it be stated from the beginning—this should be made absolutely clear—that this is not about the integrity of any member, past or present, of the Intelligence and Security Committee. I am certain that the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker), who moved the amendment, is under no illusions, because it would be defeated in a vote. I hope there will be a vote, but am not sure that there will be.

I think that this has been a useful debate, however brief, because we rarely have the opportunity to debate how ISC members are appointed. My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) has reminded us that until about 25 years ago there were no statutory regulations on the security agencies. I remember clearly my attempts to have debates on M15 and so on in the 1980s, but they were not welcomed, to say the least. In so far as M15 and M16 are accountable to Parliament, I thought it only right and proper that we should have the opportunity now and again to discuss their role.

As I stated many years ago, let me make it clear—in case anyone thinks otherwise—that I am not against the security agencies. Even when there was no acute terrorist threat such as that which we face now, I made the point time and again that every democracy has a right to protect itself and should have some sort of agency against those who want to do harm to it.

What we are discussing today is not, as I have said, a matter of integrity, but whether the House should have an opportunity to elect those who serve on the ISC. I see no reason why we should not do that. I do not like the view that has been expressed, more or less, that the security agencies could veto people whom they do not particularly like.

[Mr George Howarth]

I do not think that anybody is advancing the argument that the heads of agencies or the agencies themselves should have a veto. It is merely that they should be able to feel confident in the person who chairs the Committee. The difference is subtle, but they are two different things.

[Mr Winnick]

When the agencies were put on a statutory basis, however, and appointments duly made, it was argued that if certain people were made members the security agencies would not supply the information requested because they would not have confidence in them. I do not believe that it is possible to divide the House into those Members who can be relied on in that manner and those who cannot. There should be no such division. Are any of us who have the honour to be elected Members of this House fellow travellers of terrorist organisations or willing to betray the trust of our country? I do not accept that Members can be divided accordingly.

If the Chair of the ISC and its members were elected by the whole House—that is not going to happen at this stage, unfortunately—they would have more authority and more credibility. That does not mean that, had the Committee been elected in the past, it would have come to different conclusions. That is not what I am saying; what I am saying is that, instead of appointments, there should be elections, as is the case with Select Committees.

[Paul Murphy]

My hon. Friend is making a speech that he has made for many years and his important views are sincerely held. Does he not accept, however, that there has been a big change in the system, in that the appointment of Members of this House to the Committee is subject to the approval of us as Members of Parliament? That was never the case before.

[Mr Winnick]

Yes, of course, and that is an improvement. I do not challenge that. Indeed, as I have said, placing the agencies on a statutory basis was an improvement and a step forward from what happened previously. I hope that, when Members on the two Front Benches agree—I do not know when that will happen—the next step will be elections, which will be far better for credibility, which is essential, than appointments.

It seems odd that we are debating, in the 21st century, whether elections are desirable for Committee positions. I would have thought that we passed that stage some time ago.

[Paul Murphy]

Does my hon. Friend not accept, however, that this is a joint Committee and that other such Committees of the House are not elected, but subject to parliamentary approval in exactly the same way?

[Mr Winnick]

Yes, I do accept that, but it would be useful if Commons members of the Committee were elected. What they do in the other place is entirely a matter for them.

As I said at the beginning, this is a useful debate that gives a minority of us the opportunity to express our views. I hope that, in due course and over the years ahead, the House of Commons will make the sort of decision on this matter that some of use would like to see.

[Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con)]

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick). I am sure I have agreed with him on previous occasions, but I am not sure on what issues. I agree with the thrust of his remarks. Like him, I start by saying that I have the highest regard for those of our colleagues who currently serve on the Intelligence and Security Committee and those who have done so in the past. It is not my view that we would get better people to serve on the Committee if we elected them, but neither do I think we would get worse people.

Having been elected by colleagues to serve as a member of the Wright Committee on Reform of the House of Commons during the previous Parliament, and given that one of our recommendations has been discussed, I want to make a brief contribution to this debate. Of course, we made other important recommendations, including the introduction of elections for Select Committees. I hear what other Members have said about this being a different type of Committee that is not entirely analogous to Select Committees, but when we considered our proposals we heard all the same arguments—that it would lead to frivolous appointments, that the House would behave in a partisan way in choosing Select Committee Chairs or members, and that the House of Commons could not be relied on to do this in a reasonable, rational way.

Although I did not realise at the time that my election as chairman of the 1922 committee meant that I would be responsible for conducting the elections of Conservative members to Select Committees—I inadvertently increased my work load considerably as a result—I think, three years on, that those elections have been a great success. The Chairmen are good people who have been elected for the right reasons, which demonstrates that we have made a wise change.

We reflected long and hard on this recommendation for a particularly important and sensitive Committee, and that is why we also recommended a safeguard that it should not be possible for somebody to be a candidate for election as Chairman of the ISC if they did not enjoy the confidence of the Prime Minister. I am entirely open to other suggestions as to how it could be done. I think that it is important to have a safeguard and that, with that safeguard in place, an election would be entirely reasonable.

The question, as we have heard, is whether it would make a difference to the stature or efficacy of the Committee if it were elected rather than appointed. It could make a difference in either direction. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) ably argued, the Committee could enjoy a higher stature as the result of an elected status. One hopes that that will be the case in due course. Some Members have raised the fear that it would have a lower status. They argue that potential members and Chairs of the Committee might not enjoy the confidence of the security services in particular and that, therefore, the Committee would function less well.

Again, I do not believe that to be the case. I think that fundamentally the House is capable of reaching that very serious conclusion, making that judgment and choosing somebody on the basis that they would be the right person to serve as Chairman. I join those of my colleagues who have fallen over themselves to stress that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), who sadly has had to go on travels elsewhere, is an admirable Chairman. I would be delighted not only to vote for him, but to propose him as Chairman. He would be an obvious choice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Winnick]

I have a great deal of respect for the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell). In the course of his remarks he said that we must all exercise our judgment, and like other right hon. and hon. Members I do so today. If I may say so without being misunderstood, the right hon. and learned Gentleman put a more reasoned case than did the Minister, but I am strongly opposed to the measure, which, however it is dressed up, is a denial of a system of justice that has been built up in this country over centuries. I have no doubt that the Bill will be carried today, and in due course it is likely to be carried into law, but it will be a poor day for Parliament when it is.

I speak as a non-lawyer. Whatever limited legal work I have done outside the House between seats, I am not qualified as a lawyer, but I understand and I probably understood from the very beginning that there are certain basic rights when a person is accused—the right of defendants and their counsel to know the full case and the evidence against them. As I said, this has been built up over centuries in this country and it is now being undermined. However limited the cases may be, some defendants will not be able to have that right. I consider that very unfortunate indeed.

Under closed material procedure, special advocates will be appointed instead of counsel appointed in the normal way. Defendants will not know the evidence against them, nor will their counsel or solicitors. It is interesting to note that even special advocates who have operated in other fields that have developed in the past few years have argued, as the Minister knows, that that is an unfair way of proceeding.

We are supposed to be satisfied that only a limited number of cases will be dealt with in such a way, but that does not satisfy me. If it is only one case, in my view that will be one too many. It is all very well the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife being satisfied—as I have said, I respect him and his integrity—but why have 700 lawyers, including a large number of QCs, indicated that they oppose it? Why has the Joint Committee on Human Rights made it clear that it is not satisfied with the outcome? Can they all simply be dismissed as some sort of civil liberties lobby that does not know what it is talking about?

We know that the basis for what has been brought before us is the cases of rendition, torture and the alleged complicity of British security personnel. Those cases have been debated on various occasions in the House of Commons, and I have taken part in those debates, but is it not important that we parliamentarians and, more importantly, the British public know whether or not the allegations are true? The right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife, in defending his position, said that if we do not follow what is proposed we will not get the necessary intelligence information from the United States. Are we really going to decide on that basis? Are we really going to decide that what has been built up over centuries, the right of defendants to fair proceedings and the right of their counsel to know what is going on at every stage, should be thrown overboard and into the dustbin because otherwise the United States might not provide us with intelligence information? And is it in their interests not to do so?

I in no way underestimate the acute terrorist danger facing this country. The atrocities of 7/7 came as no surprise to me, and I am sure that is the view of other Members who anticipated, as I did, that at some stage there would be a terrorist attack. Indeed, it might occur again—who knows? Yes, we are faced with an acute terrorist danger. I do not challenge that at all. They are demented, murderous psychopaths who want to bring death and destruction to our people. But if Parliament has a duty to defend our citizens, which indeed it does, I take the view that it has another duty and another obligation: to defend the rule of law and the traditional rights that have been built up in this country. That is why I cannot support the measure before us today. I believe that it is wrong and that it undermines so much of the British justice system that I think that we should be ashamed if it gets on to the statute book. Whatever I can do as one Member to show my opposition to the Bill, I will do it.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—