Postal Services Bill

Ed Davey Excerpts

Wednesday 27th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord) on making his maiden speech. I have been to Woking only once, and he missed out its most famous citizen—the great Paul Weller.

Turning to the matter at hand, although our amendment was not selected, it sets out the feeling of the Scottish National party, Plaid Cymru and all the parties from Northern Ireland, including the Democratic Unionist party; although DUP Members did not sign the amendment, they support its aims. We fear for the future of the universal service obligation if the Post Office is privatised.

I contributed submissions to Richard Hooper’s original work. I agreed with much of what he said in the end, but I strongly opposed the part-privatisation proposed by the previous Government and absolutely oppose the full privatisation proposed by this Government. Today, the Business Secretary argued that regulation will protect the universal service guarantee and that there is therefore no need to maintain Royal Mail as a public company, but it is inevitable that the pressures from a fully private company will lead to a reduction in the universal service.

Over the summer, the Business Secretary appeared to recognise that the current six days a week pick up and delivery service may not survive and suggested that a five days a week service might be sufficient. That accords with the current definition of the universal service, which does not include Saturday deliveries, so the Government already envisage the service declining. That position was justified on the grounds that it would not discriminate against any area, since it would be the same service whether someone resides in Kensington or Kyleakin. However, that is not quite the case. If I reside or run a business in Kensington, I am sure that there are a number of different services to which I can turn, but it is somewhat different in rural areas of Scotland where Royal Mail is the only service that will pick up and deliver mail. That vital point must be borne in mind when we consider the Bill’s proposals.

We are dealing not only with residential customers but with business customers, many of whom, in more rural and remote areas, rely absolutely on Royal Mail, which is the only carrier that is obliged and able to deliver a service to them. Does anyone really believe that that will continue in a fully privatised environment? How long will it be before a private owner such as TNT or Deutsche Post argues that it is at a competitive disadvantage because it is the only company required to offer a universal service? How long will it be before it wants the agreement to be watered down or requires public subsidy to enable it to continue?

Such an outcome would be a disaster for rural business. Only this week, the Government talked about the need to increase broadband access in rural areas. All too often Royal Mail is considered old-fashioned—it is seen as Postman Pat and his black and white cat touring Greendale as opposed to the brave new world of broadband. Although broadband is important in rural areas, which would benefit enormously from faster access, one cannot send goods down a telephone line or a fibre optic cable. Unless some entrepreneur in this brave new world comes up with Star Trek transporters, we will still require a physical delivery service to go up and down dale and glen to pick up and deliver physical objects. At the moment, the only company that will guarantee to do that is Royal Mail. We have to take that on board and do nothing that will undermine the service if we are to encourage the regeneration of our rural areas and create jobs in the new green economy.

I appreciate that many Government Members firmly believe in the overriding primacy of private enterprise, but even private enterprise sometimes needs public help. I was intrigued by the Prime Minister’s speech to the CBI earlier this week in which he said that

“business confidence doesn’t just come from financial and human assets. It comes from physical assets too—from our infrastructure.”

I do not often agree with the Prime Minister, but I think that is absolutely correct. He recognises the need for substantial public investment in the infrastructure needed to help businesses develop. Infrastructure is not just roads, railways and broadband—it is also investment in existing systems that provide a backbone for many businesses. Infrastructure assets such as Royal Mail provide new entrepreneurial businesses in many of our rural areas with an essential service that enables them to operate, grow and create jobs. They do that in many areas that are about to be hit very hard by the reduction in public sector employment.

I am interested in the fascinating myth-busters leaflet published by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)]

It is good.

[Mr Weir]

Indeed. Let me quote one of the myths in the leaflet:

“Growth in parcels from online shopping will outweigh falls in letter volumes”.

The response states:

“The parcels market is much smaller than the letters market and has been fully liberalised since 1981, making it highly competitive.”

It might be highly competitive, but many carriers will not deliver to remote and rural areas, particularly to Scottish islands, except at immense cost. There is a real danger in going down the route of privatising postal services.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)]

I start by thanking the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), and all the other hon. Members, for their contribution to today’s debate. The quality of the debate is testament to the importance that this House attaches to two of Britain’s great institutions: Royal Mail and the Post Office. May I particularly congratulate the hon. Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord) on his maiden speech? He may not be aware of it, but I visited a post office in his constituency to look at one of the pilots for our reforms. Will he send my regards to Mr Patel at the West End post office, who has certainly influenced my thinking?

Both sides of the House recognise the extent to which our constituents value Royal Mail’s universal postal service. No one who witnessed the passionate debates over the previous Government’s post office closure programme can underestimate how deeply communities across our country feel about their local post offices. That is why the Government feel so strongly about the Bill: we believe that what is at stake is no less than the very survival of the universal postal service and Britain’s network of post offices. If we do not reform those two institutions, attract private capital and private sector disciplines into Royal Mail and tackle the underlying economic challenges to the post office network, their future in a digital world of e-mail and internet services is bleak.

Some Members wanted me to blame past management for all Royal Mail’s ills. My hon. Friends the Members for Northampton South (Mr Binley) and for Southport (Dr Pugh), in particular, wanted me to criticise the quality of the management in the past. I am not going to take up that kind offer. What I will say is that the current chief executive, who was appointed by this Government—Moya Greene, who came from Canada Post—is an excellent chief executive and is already taking the tough decisions that need to be taken. It is interesting that she and Royal Mail support the Bill. They know that we need to get capital into Royal Mail. They know that it needs to be released from Treasury control.

[Mr Binley]

Will my hon. Friend correct a mistake that he has made? I asked him to explain how he was going to get the exciting new management into the Post Office to ensure its future, and I did not particularly want him to comment on my criticism of past management.

[Mr Davey]

My hon. Friend has corrected the record, and I can say that we have that good management with Moya Greene.

The real challenges of the digital world, as the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) said, apply to all postal administrations across the world. It is the deep challenges that face Royal Mail and the Post Office that make the position of the Opposition at best incredible and at worst downright irresponsible. They know the problems that Royal Mail faces: the decline in letter volumes as e-mail volumes grow exponentially, the large losses the company has made in recent times, and the incomparably large pension deficit. We know that they know, because just last year they said the same thing, and put a Bill before Parliament to address those very same problems. I have that Bill here—but unfortunately it was not brought down the corridor from the other place for us all to debate in this Chamber. If it had been, the similarities in the Bill would have meant that many of the questions raised in this debate could have been debated then. So, let me address some of the questions that I have been asked.

The hon. Member for Vauxhall talked about foreign ownership. She may remember that when her Government tabled their Bill there was concern on the Labour Benches that TNT and Deutsche Post might buy Royal Mail, so she has an issue to raise. What is often forgotten in this debate is that British investors already own 30% of Deutsche Post. That is the real world: investors invest in good companies.

The hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) had worries that the royal associations would somehow be broken as a result of privatisation. The Queen will continue to approve all stamps that bear her image, as she does now. The Royal Mail brand is valuable and we will put safeguards in place against its misuse. We have initiated discussions with the Palace for that very purpose. I should tell the hon. Gentleman, who claimed that more post offices closed under the Conservative Government, that he is wrong. In 18 years of Conservative government fewer post offices closed than in 13 years of Labour government.

Coalition colleagues might be concerned because of the similarities between our Bill and the Labour Bill. They are so similar that we half expected the Labour party to feel duty-bound to support our Bill.

For example, there are almost identical proposals on pensions, except that our proposals are slightly more favourable to Royal Mail employees. The clauses on regulation are also similar, except that our Bill introduces new safeguards for the universal postal service that were strangely absent from the previous Government’s Bill. Our Bill rebalances the regulatory framework, putting the universal service and its financial sustainability at its heart.

Those ought to be major areas of agreement, but we did not get that tonight. We heard some bizarre criticisms from Opposition Front Benchers. They said that we are not addressing the problems of the regulatory system, but it is their regulatory system. They do not appear to have read the Bill, because we are making changes to that regulatory system.

The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East brought in Ofcom in the previous Government’s Bill. It has a duty to reduce unnecessary regulation, which will assist the legislation. The Bill requires cost transparency and accounting separation to deal with many of the regulatory problems that my hon. Friends the Members for Southport and for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) raised in the debate.

Surprisingly, Opposition Members also raised concerns about the pensions solution. The hon. Member for Vauxhall said that it is possible to achieve a solution on pensions without a sale. It would be irresponsible to ask the taxpayer to take on an £8 billion deficit without securing private capital and disciplines and without transferring future risk from the taxpayer. This is a package deal, which is what Hooper argued for and what we are delivering.

Richard Hooper made it clear that action is needed if we are to secure the future of a universal postal service. His document, “Modernise or Decline”, sets out those options. When the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) questioned whether a privatised Royal Mail would threaten the universal service obligation, he was ignoring the evidence put forward by Sir Richard Hooper. I can only think that he has not read the Bill. If he had read it, he would know that it is all about safeguarding the universal postal service of Royal Mail and the Post Office, recognising the particular importance of those services to our rural communities.

The six-day, one-price-goes-anywhere universal service obligation is enshrined on the face of the Bill, but we have not stopped there. The Bill introduces new safeguards to protect that service, ensuring that any future change must be properly debated by Parliament, must retain the uniformity of the service and must take into account the interests of postal service users, which, of course, includes rural communities. The scaremongering of the Scottish nationalists flies in the face of both the facts and the text of the Bill.

Returning to the substance of today’s debate, despite our producing a Bill that is better than the previous Government’s Bill—better for Royal Mail employees’ pensions and better for the protection of the universal service—the Opposition are determined to oppose it. Where are the huge differences that are causing the Opposition such problems? We want to provide Royal Mail employees with shares, so workers can benefit from the prosperous future for Royal Mail that our reforms will enable. The previous Government talked about involving employees, but they argued with the unions about giving employees shares and then argued with themselves. This Government are united, and we are going to do it through the largest employee share scheme by percentage of shares of any major British privatisation. For the first time ever, I believe, we are mandating an employee share scheme on the face of a Bill. As a member of a party that championed employee share ownership for decades in opposition, I could not be more proud to present this radical measure to the House tonight. I pay special tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who did so much to develop those issues when we were in opposition.

I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White), who explained how important employee share ownership can be in driving productivity. He was concerned that only 10% of shares will go to the employee share scheme, but I can tell him that the Bill refers to “at least 10%”. I was pleased by the support for employee shares from my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman). His chairmanship of the all-party group on employee ownership shows that he knows about that area. He raised a constituency case, which I will take up if he writes to me.

Another key difference between Labour’s Bill and our Bill is our mutualisation proposal for the Post Office. Sub-postmasters, Post Office employees and communities can all have a say in how their post offices are run. The Co-operative model is a huge example of the big society and something that the old Fabians would have classed as public ownership, but the Labour party is going to vote against the Bill.

Let me clarify the mutualisation proposals for the Opposition, who do not seem to understand what they are all about. Post Office Ltd, the national company that franchises to individual post offices and chains of post offices, would become a mutual if our proposals go ahead. We believe that having a national mutual similar to the Co-op would have many practical benefits and would align the incentives of sub-postmasters with those of the company and their main franchisor. When it comes to modernisation and putting services online, it is important to have aligned incentives.

[Malcolm Bruce]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Davey]

No, I am sorry.

My hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) raised concerns about the conditions for mutualisation. Of course we will have to ensure that there is a viable post office network, otherwise we could not make mutualisation work, so that is one of our conditions. Clause 7 makes it clear that a mutualised post office network would have to be “for the public benefit”, so that is also a clear condition.

Despite the fact that our Bill is better for Royal Mail employees, Royal Mail, the Post Office, customers and the taxpayer, the Opposition still oppose it. What is their problem? The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East, the former Minister of State for Employment Relations and Postal Affairs, said that it is about ownership but he did not ask the next question: what is the difference between the shareholdings to which the previous Government and this Government were prepared to agree? That principle concerns about 0.2% of the shares—the extra shares that they were not prepared to sell but we are. The sale of those shares will free Royal Mail from Treasury control and will enable it to be the master of its own fate and to invest for the future without coming cap in hand to the taxpayer. New Labour has been dying for some years but with the opposition to this Bill, old Labour has returned. I thought that I would be in danger of being called Red Ed with the bail-out of the pension plan, but the real Red Ed is on the Opposition Benches—ideology before reality, dogma before common sense and, worst of all, vested interest before national interest.

The idea that public ownership has delivered a successful Royal Mail and post office network clearly is not right. Perhaps Opposition Members are aware that Royal Mail shed 65,000 jobs during the 13 years of Labour government, so public ownership did not deliver for workers. Let us consider the experience under privatisation around the world. Since Deutsche Post was floated in 2001, it has seen investment of £11.6 billion. That just will not be possible for Royal Mail if it remains in the public sector, but through our measures, it will become possible.

The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) made another accusation against the Bill—it would lead to post office closures. What a cheek! Ten post offices closed in his constituency under the previous Labour Government and about 5,000 post offices were shut in total. As so many colleagues have made clear throughout this debate, Labour is the party of post office closures. This Government will not make those same errors. That is why my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary today announced our £1.34 billion investment programme for the post office network. That money will not pay for a closure programme—we will not throw money down the drain as Labour did—but it will bring a lasting change to the network and will tackle the underlying economic issues it faces. That is why the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues will see, when we make our full statement on policy for the post office network shortly, a Government working as one—joined-up government is what they used to call it.

[Mr Denham]

We look forward to hearing the more detailed statement. Will the Minister confirm that his Department suffered one of the largest departmental cuts in last week’s comprehensive spending review—25% of revenue and 50% of capital? Will he also confirm that the money announced today will come from that same pot of money? What other cuts that he has not yet announced will be made in BIS to finance it?

[Mr Davey]

Unlike the hon. Gentleman’s Government, we do not wish up new pots of money left, right and centre. Of course it is in the BIS settlement.

The Opposition made much of one point tonight. Apart from their ideological contortions over ownership, they have tried to suggest that separating Royal Mail from the Post Office will somehow be the catalyst for post office closures. Let me explain why they are wrong.

First, a privately owned Royal Mail will not act against its own commercial interests. It will not give up valued retail space in the heart of communities the length and breadth of Britain, creating a vacuum that its competitors would gratefully fill. To think otherwise one would have to be living on Planet Consignia. Have Members heard of Planet Consignia? It is where the previous Government once tried to place Royal Mail. This Government, along with most people in Britain, understand the value and tradition of royalty, and will not make such daft mistakes.

Secondly, Royal Mail has made it clear that the current long-term commercial contract between Royal Mail and post offices will continue. Only this week, the chief executive of Royal Mail, Moya Greene, told me that

“the support that the Government is giving to Post Offices Ltd should mean that the Post Office should become an even stronger retail channel for Royal Mail.”

She went on to say that it was “unthinkable” that there would not be a strong relationship between the Post Office and Royal Mail in the future.

Thirdly, if the Opposition are seriously saying the Government should write into the Bill that there should be a statutory permanent contractual relationship between Royal Mail and the Post Office, they would be risking not only a legal challenge from competitors, but setting the Post Office in aspic. Do they not realise that as Royal Mail’s letter volumes decline, so too will the mail business for the Post Office, so it needs to be given the opportunity to build new revenues? Do they not realise that new sources of revenue will be critical if we are to achieve a financially viable post office network?

I have a confession. I am a postal anorak. Before having the honour of being elected to the House in 1997, I was a management consultant and I specialised in postal companies. I worked on projects for Royal Mail’s equivalents in Taiwan, South Africa, Belgium and Sweden. Although I co-authored a report for the US Postal Service to put to Congress on the commercialisation and liberalisation of postal companies and markets around the world, I have to disappoint the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont); I never worked on a privatisation programme—[Interruption.] Regrettably. Back then, in 1997—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I cannot hear the Minister, which means that the House cannot hear him either. The Minister must be heard.

[Mr Davey]

In 1997, Royal Mail was a company that could hold its own with most postal administrations around the world. It needed reform and it needed investment, but it was not balance sheet insolvent or loss-making and it was not as fragile as it is today.

Mr Deputy Speaker, what happened between 1997 and 2010? I will tell you. There was dereliction of duty by the Labour Government, on a massive scale. There were post office closures, lack of investment in Royal Mail and the pension deficit ballooned.

This Government will not shirk our responsibilities. We will take the tough decisions. We will invest in the Post Office. We will free Royal Mail for the investment it needs. I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.