Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill

Eleanor Laing Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons
Friday 25th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Chris Green]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman, but it is sometimes tempting to speculate more widely. I appreciate the focus that he wishes the debate to have, which is to some extent represented by the biometrics element having been taken out so that we can focus on the most important elements.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. For clarification, I have allowed the hon. Gentleman to stray slightly beyond the realms of this narrow Bill for the sake of illustration, but of course we observe the rules carefully, especially on a Friday when we are looking at private Members’ Bills, to make sure that the debate is absolutely pertinent to the matter before us. The hon. Gentleman has done nothing wrong, but for the sake of clarity and for new Members who have not attended before on a Friday, the rules are not relaxed in any way today, and the hon. Gentleman whose Bill this is was correct to point out what he has just pointed out. Mr Green, you may proceed for illustrative purposes.

[Chris Green]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will pick up the point that was made about public perception, because the regulator has a role in reassuring people that the system—all elements of the forensics science area—is up to standard. The public need that reassurance.

To some extent, that goes back to the “CSI” vision in that area. Before coming here, I worked in the mass spectrometry industry and on occasion worked in forensics laboratories. Having been there, I am confident that—not being a big fan of the show—there is a world of difference between the two. The laboratory environment is incredibly focused and serious. It has many of the standards and expectations that any other laboratory environment would expect to have, whether in industry or other sorts of research, because we cannot have scientists and others contaminating samples in the lab with DNA or other samples, for example.

We have to have a clean-room environment and incredibly well-controlled samples and other materials. We hear about the negativity of single-use plastics, but in the laboratory environment it is incredibly important that people use a vial once and not on a number of occasions, because that is how we get cross-contamination.

We have to have an understanding of the quality of the science and the resources it needs because of the sensitivity of instrumentation these days. I worked in the mass spec industry for approaching 20 years, and the technology was transformed from the beginning of that time to when I left. Having been here for five years, I would now feel, in a sense, technologically redundant. I have been completely left behind. It is not just the physical technology and the electronics; it is also the software. In terms of the laboratory experience, this touches on wider concerns about data handling and how we can control and protect the enormous quantities of data that laboratories generate. We must have confidence, from beginning to end, about how the samples are gained from the crime scene, how they are processed and transferred, and how they go through the laboratory system, after which reports are written and, ultimately, presented in court.

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[Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Scott Mann), and I join him in the journey of forensic science that I have taken this week. It is a great pleasure to take part in private Members’ Bills debates on a Friday journey through topics that I might not have been expert in earlier in the week.

I pay particular tribute to the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) not only for the way he commended the Bill to the House and the tone he has taken, but for the cross-party support he has built. I know my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green), who is not in his place now, did a lot of work in previous Parliaments and I know they worked together to build this consensus. To see the Government and the Treasury Bench today commending the Bill with all gusto to Committee stage speaks volumes for the way the hon. Member for Bristol North West has taken the Bill forward to date, and I look forward to giving it my full support.

It is worth reflecting that the regulator, the National Police Chiefs’ Council and the overwhelming majority of stakeholders in forensic science are commending the Bill and pushing for it. Like my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall, I do not claim to be an expert in forensic science, but when we have that weight of stakeholders pushing for a Bill, it speaks volumes to the House. The Commons and Lords Science and Technology Committees also did a lot of work in this sphere and they have commended the Bill, and, as other Members have said—Madam Deputy Speaker, I know that the temptation on a Friday with private Members’ Bills is for repetition, repetition, repetition. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West has touched on much of the detail, so I hope I will bring alive some of the more practical aspects of the Bill and why it is so important, and I do not—I see you rising to your feet anyway, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I was hoping you would not.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

As matter of clarification, specifically because this is only the second day we have had private Members’ Bills when a large number of new Members have been able to participate, repetition is not in order—persistent and constant repetition—but that rule applies to repetition by one Member in one speech, or during one debate. I am sorry to tell the hon. Gentleman and the House that the Chair has no power to stop a Member repeating what another Member has already said. Indeed, as has been observed on many occasions, it is often the case in this Chamber that everything that can be said about a particular subject might already have been said, but not by everyone, so the hon. Gentleman is not straying from the rules.

[Craig Williams]

Thank you for that clarification, Madam Deputy Speaker. That enables me to talk on so many more subjects than I had planned to, but let me accept my own challenge to say something different. I want particularly to look at what Dr Tully, the Forensic Science Regulator, has said about the Bill, commending and reiterating the need, as has been recognised on the Treasury Bench, for statutory enforcement powers to protect the criminal justice system. It was quite a hard-hitting report, released earlier this year, which commends the Bill and the statutory powers.

The Minister has touched on the effect of an earlier statutory instrument that was brought to the House. Police forces are likely to step up very quickly should the Bill move through the House at pace. The SI that transposed EU law into UK law on 25 March 2019 led to an increase from 9% to 90% in fingerprint and DNA analysis in just a few months. That demonstrates to the House the worthiness of the Bill, and that it will turn into action incredibly quickly.

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[Brendan Clarke-Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely spot on in his analysis. One of the joys of the free market and allowing businesses to thrive is that they can contribute and give us a wide base of providers. I fully endorse what he says. That very much forms part of the structure that we are looking at, which the Bill will hopefully strengthen. Standardisation will help us to move towards a more efficient system. I am delighted that the National Police Chiefs’ Council also supports this proposed legislation.

Going back to “Quincy, M.E.”, I cannot remember a single case being thrown out because the laboratory was not up to the correct standards or because people were not sure of Quincy’s credentials or the competence of those undertaking the work—as I said, Sam was very good, while Quincy was having his coffee or whatever it was—but we live in a very different time from the 1970s and ’80s. Digital forensics now plays a highly important role in police worked. I was an aspiring computer programmer once upon a time, on my Amstrad, typing in BASIC, which is now completely obsolete, of course. I am having to relearn things.

Non-accredited labs are open to far more challenge. We can be proud that we have high standards in the UK, but a move towards a statutory, regulated service would help to build on that and reduce the potential for any challenges to be made in court. We do not want to be losing cases on technicalities, and this Bill will help to prevent that.

I very much welcome the Bill. I thank the hon. Member for Bristol North West once again for introducing it, and everyone else for their contributions.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I call Richard Fuller.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

You have caught me, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

To allow the hon. Gentleman time to catch his breath, I will just say that I think the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Brendan Clarke-Smith) has just made the shortest speech on a Friday that I have heard, although it was none the less effective.

[Richard Fuller]

Let me assure you, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I shall not be following that example. On the issue of brevity, I am sure that, like me, you were hoping that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope) might be persuaded away from his characteristic brevity in Friday sittings to give a peroration of some length about his scepticism with regard to the Bill, but alas he was resolutely brief in his comments today. Perhaps I can make up for his brevity too in my contribution.

I add my congratulations to those already given to the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones) for introducing the Bill, which apparently has wide support across the Chamber. I see no reason to stop it progressing to the next stage and wish him well as it goes through the further deliberations. I am grateful to him for clarifying the parts of the initial Bill which, on consideration, he has thought best to leave to others. As he rightly says, and as the Minister has said from the Front Bench today, the Government themselves have some ideas, coming from the manifesto, to implement and that will help the good passage of the Bill. The willingness on the part of the Bill’s promoter to listen and to be collegial with the Government will ensure that this Bill becomes the law of the land.

Notwithstanding that expectation, let me set out some reasons for caution and concern. My reasons for caution have been exacerbated and enhanced—brought to a higher peak, one might say—by some of the contributions from my hon. Friend the Minister. He exhibited in some of his comments an uncharacteristic enthusiasm, perhaps some would say a worrying desire—