European Union (Referendum) Bill

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Friday 8th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Sheerman]

No, I am sorry, but I do not. I think the whole question of a referendum is a very important one that this House should look at, but it is a major constitutional issue that should have been introduced with a Green Paper and had a pre-legislative inquiry. It should have been taken seriously because it would totally change the nature of Europe and our role in Europe. It is unseemly and furtive, and not at the level of great parliamentary democracy, to try to use a private Member’s Bill to bring this forward.

Until we discussed this issue in Committee, the Government seemed unaware that Gibraltar had this special status and had a vote in the European elections. Often when we take part in a Bill Committee, we realise that we do not do a lot that changes anything, but in this case we made the Government aware of the special status of Gibraltar, and that is why this is a common-sense new clause.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend rightly says that Ministers and, indeed, the Bill’s promoter, completely forgot about Gibraltarians in this context. He will remember from his time in Committee that they refused to accept our amendment that would have given Gibraltarians the right to vote in any referendum. Does he have any intelligence as to why there has been this U-turn on the part of the Bill’s promoter?

[Mr Sheerman]

I have been in this House long enough to be grateful for small mercies, and we did, after all, get a change. As I said, it is very unusual to do something in a Bill Committee that one can remember as being quite creative.

It was an unusual Committee, Mr Speaker. I was in full flow at one stage, and when I turned to look at the Public Gallery, the Prime Minister was sitting in on the proceedings. This is a very special Bill—

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[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I am most grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for calling me to speak in this debate.

As I am sure the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) will recall, I intervened on him to raise the issue of Gibraltar when we first gathered here on a Friday to discuss this Bill. I think I am accurate in saying that he was rather dismissive of my concerns about the people of Gibraltar and accused me of merely trying to wreck the Bill. I very much welcome the fact that he has had a conversion along the way from here to the Whips Office to get his instructions and back again, and now supports giving the people of Gibraltar the right to take part in this referendum.

We heard an excellent speech from the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), who is one of the leading experts on the overseas territories. I was slightly disappointed, however, that he did not explain the precise reason why it is vital for Gibraltar to have its voice in the referendum. The reason is that under the treaty of Utrecht, which—he may correct me—took place in 1713, the United Kingdom has ownership of Gibraltar for as long as we and the people of Gibraltar should wish it, but should we ever renounce our ownership of the Rock, ownership automatically passes back to Madrid. Therefore, under the treaty, the people of Gibraltar have no ability to seek their own independence. If they were not given their chance to have a say in the referendum, if the United Kingdom chose to leave the EU, they would be placed in the ridiculous situation of having to choose whether they wished to remain part of the European Union or to become Spanish.

That is why I very much welcome the fact that eventually, after six months, the hon. Member for Stockton South and his colleagues have accepted the argument that I tried to make back in July. I look forward to his explaining why it has taken him so long to come to the conclusion that was obvious to us at such an early stage.

[Mr Thomas]

As regards new clause 1, does my hon. Friend agree that it would be helpful if the Bill’s promoter gave us a little more information about why the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 needs to be referenced in the Bill?

[Thomas Docherty]

I fully agree. You will recall, Mr Speaker, that on Wednesday evening we had a debate about the use of explanatory statements. As I think the House knows, I was a little sceptical about the mandatory nature of that proposal. However, I must confess—as I said, I am not as much of an expert as the hon. Member for Romford—that it would have been helpful in this case, because yesterday there was some genuine confusion about the amendments, with several hon. Members seeking guidance from the Clerks, the Library and elsewhere. I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman did not explain why that particular line was included in the new clause. Does he wish to provide an explanation?

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[Martin Horwood]

The hon. Gentleman again makes a good point. It is the future of those young people that we are debating. This issue is even more important in respect of this referendum than in respect of the wider franchise. In elections, people can change their mind after five years and kick out the Government. This decision will last a generation. The more young people we can involve in the decision, the better.

I will draw my remarks to a close. Important issues are finally being tackled in the amendments that relate to Gibraltar, but they do leave questions unanswered.

[Mr Thomas]

The hon. Gentleman has understandably focused the majority of his remarks on Gibraltar on the entitlement of its people to vote. May I bring him back to new clause 1 and the intention of the Bill’s promoter to refer to the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 in the Bill? Does he think it would be helpful if the Minister explained to the House why it is necessary to have a piece of outdated, colonial legislation in the Bill?

[Martin Horwood]

I have already invited the Minister to comment on the new clause in general. In fact, I should really call him the right hon. Member for Aylesbury in this context, not the Minister, since he is not speaking on behalf of the Government. We should be mindful of the issues raised by including such colonial legislation in the Bill, although the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) is probably technically incorrect in calling it outdated, as I believe it is still valid legislation. As I said earlier—

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Hon. Members have asked about subsections (2) and (3) of new clause 1. To some extent, my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham answered this point by saying that they were designed to make it clear that the underlying constitutional order, expressed in the 2006 Gibraltar constitution, remained untouched. Under current arrangements, the franchise for European parliamentary elections in Gibraltar is determined by an Act of the Gibraltarian Parliament and Government, rather than by this House. In this case, however, the new clause proposes that the UK Parliament set the terms of a franchise that, for the purposes of this referendum, would include Gibraltar. For that reason, subsections (2) and (3) make it clear that despite this particular instance, that underlying constitutional relationship—the 2006 constitution gives far-reaching internal powers of self-government to the elected Administration in Gibraltar—remains undisturbed.

[Mr Thomas]

I am following very clearly the Minister’s attempted explanation for why subsections (2) and (3) should be written into the Bill. Essentially, I am struggling to understand why he thinks there might be some problem with Gibraltan law preventing the smooth running of a referendum in Gibraltar. Is not the reference to the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 a bit of overkill?

[Mr Lidington]

No, it is not overkill. This is a sensible piece of legislative drafting designed to put it beyond the risk of any misunderstanding or misinterpretation that the underlying constitutional relationship would remain undisturbed, despite the specific and exceptional provisions of the Bill. I would say gently to the hon. Gentleman that if he looks back at the Committee proceedings, he will find that his predecessor as shadow Europe Minister, the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds), was among those arguing and tabling amendments to extend the franchise to people in Gibraltar through the vehicle of this Bill.

[Mr Thomas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

I am trying to respond to the hon. Gentleman. As I have said, I have reflected carefully on the points made in Committee by hon. Members on both sides of the House.

[Mr Thomas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

No. I have consulted the Chief Minister and have concluded that I should give my support and endorsement to the new clause tabled by my hon. Friends the Members for Stockton South and for Romford (Andrew Rosindell). It ill behoves Opposition Front Benchers to try to retreat from a new clause that seeks to give effect to something that they themselves were proposing in an amendment, which was extremely technically deficient, in a debate in Committee.

[Mr Thomas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

No, I will not.

The hon. Member for Ilford South has tabled many different amendments. He acknowledged that they cover a wide range of issues, which are perfectly legitimate, about the extent of the franchise in the UK. He proposed in one amendment that the UK franchise should be extended to prisoners and in another that the franchise—

[Mr Thomas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

I am replying to the hon. Member for Ilford South. He proposed amendments that seek to—

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[Mr Thomas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

I am responding to the hon. Member for Ilford South. I am sure that the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) will have a chance to catch Madam Deputy Speaker’s eye in a few minutes if he wishes to go over again the points that were made in Committee.

The hon. Member for Ilford South raised the question of extending the franchise for UK expatriates beyond the 50-year maximum, which would be the effect of at least one of his amendments. He also proposed altering the general election franchise, in effect, to include European citizens as well as UK and Commonwealth citizens. All those are legitimate questions for debate but the purpose of the Bill is to apply the UK’s general election franchise terms to the proposed referendum.

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[Meg Hillier]

As I hinted, Madam Deputy Speaker, I suspected that I would be tempted to drift away. Thank you for reining me in, as my natural enthusiasm for this subject overtook me.

It is important that young people should have the chance to vote on these vital issues. British citizens living abroad should also have that chance to vote, because they will be affected by Britain’s opt-out, wherever they are living in the EU. EU citizens living in Britain also should have the chance to vote. I hope that I have made my points clear. Notwithstanding my concerns that a vote to remove Britain from the EU would be a great mistake, if we are to go down the route of having a referendum, we must ensure that it is fair and that the franchise is as wide as is reasonable to ensure that nobody feels excluded or cut out from this important decision.

[Mr Thomas]

It is a genuine pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier). We have had a really interesting debate, with a helpful opening contribution from the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), who is not in his place at the moment, and similarly helpful contributions from my hon. Friends the Members for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) and for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) and the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood). Indeed, the Minister’s contribution was enlightening on some things, although not on others. Of course, there was the short but rather special contribution from the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon), too.

I shall speak to amendment 63, in my name, and to amendments 80 to 82, in the names of the hon. Members for Stockton South (James Wharton) and for Romford. These amendments relate to the electoral arrangements for the people of Gibraltar in the proposed referendum. I welcome the fact that Government Members have belatedly taken steps to address this rather glaring hole in their proposals. An apology might have been in order on behalf of the Conservative party, as it was a rather astonishing omission for Government Members to forget the people of Gibraltar in the referendum equation. Indeed, as the Bill’s promoter and Conservative Members consulted so few people before the Bill popped out of Lynton Crosby’s office, I suppose that I should not be at all surprised that the people of Gibraltar were not consulted before the Bill saw the light of day.

Perhaps this is not the only such occasion that Government Members have allowed the people of Gibraltar to slip their minds, but at least, thanks to the contributions of my hon. Friends the Members for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds), for Ilford South and for Huddersfield and the hon. Member for Cheltenham, this issue was addressed in Committee. Sadly, despite being awakened in Committee to the concern about the omission of the Gibraltarians from the Bill’s franchise, the Minister for Europe and, indeed, the Bill’s promoter have been silent on this problem in the intervening weeks. So it is only now, thankfully, at this the eleventh hour, that it seems that Government Members have seen the light and are prepared to address this anomaly.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Does my hon. Friend think it strange that the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) moved—belatedly, as my hon. Friend says—the new clause to enfranchise the residents of Gibraltar, but that even though he has called for overseas territory residents to have direct representation in the House, he should not feel it fit to add them to the new clause?

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. If he will forgive me, I want to come a little later in my remarks to the entitlement to vote—or not—of citizens of the rest of the overseas territories.

[Mike Gapes]

I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that, as late as 23 October, the Minister with responsibility for Africa and the overseas territories gave the impression to European Committee B that he thought that people in Gibraltar would have a vote. He subsequently had to write to me on 30 October to correct that impression and to point out that the Minister was still considering the situation. Even though the issue has been there for some time, my hon. Friend is quite right to say that the Government—I suppose it is the Government who are responsible—have belatedly come to this view.

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes a helpful contribution by acknowledging the further mistake of Foreign Office Ministers in relation to Gibraltarians.

I have read the reports of the debates on the Bill in Committee, and I say gently to the Minister for Europe that what my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East most certainly did not do at any point during those proceedings was to suggest that provisions of an 1865 Act—legislation that was used for bullying the colonials—should be added to the Bill.

New clause 1, on which so little light was shed by either the mover of the amendment or the Minister, took me back to my masters studies at the London School of Economics, where I was fortunate enough to study imperial and commonwealth studies. I cannot remember a seminar touching specifically on the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865, which is referred to in subsection (3) of the new clause, so I did a little reading up about that Act over the past 24 hours. The Minister may want to reflect further on whether reference to the Act is strictly necessary.

I ask the House to consider what possible problem there might be with Gibraltar law that would stop the smooth running of a referendum in the way that the hon. Member for Stockton South and others on the Government Benches want. What is there in Gibraltarian law that has sparked the concern that the potential legislative requirements of the Bill might be usurped by anything that the Gibraltarians already have on their statute book? I gently suggest to the Minister and to the promoter of the Bill that including reference to the Act is overkill and a further snub to the people of Gibraltar, after the hon. Gentleman forgot to give them the right to vote in the referendum in the first place.

[Mike Gapes]

Given the lack of clarity from the Minister when he referred to the matter earlier, would it not be appropriate for the House to divide on new clause 1 so that we can be clear that we are voting for its provisions, in order to avoid any ambiguity for the future?

[Mr Thomas]

It is for hon. Members in all parts of the House to make their own judgment on that. Given that the Minister has already spoken and has shown no sign of wanting to intervene on me to clarify the position in relation to the 1865 Act, I look forward to the hon. Member for Romford or the promoter of the Bill, when winding up the debate, giving us a little more clarity about what causes such concern that the Act needs to be added.

In my time as a Member of Parliament, I cannot remember another piece of legislation that needed provisions of the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 added to it. Perhaps the Minister or the Bill’s promoter could illuminate the House with details of when the Act was last used and when its provisions were last added to a Bill. In that way, some of my concerns and some of those of my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South about the necessity or otherwise of the Act’s provisions might be addressed. The last thing we want is to over-regulate the Bill, as I fear the Minister and the hon. Member for Romford might be seeking to do.

For those in the House not familiar with the situation with regard to Gibraltar, it is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife made clear, a British overseas territory which has been ruled by Britain since 1713 under the terms of the treaty of Utrecht. Gibraltarians are British citizens. They elect their own representatives to the territory’s House of Assembly and our British monarch appoints a governor. Gibraltar is self-governing in all areas except defence and foreign policy, and it is home to an important British military garrison and naval base. The particular difficulty thrown up by the Bill is that should a referendum take place under the original terms of the Bill, a vote in Britain to leave the European Union could occur without the people of Gibraltar having any say at all in this huge constitutional change. The people of Gibraltar would be entirely disfranchised—ignored, in effect.

Thanks to the CBI’s work earlier this week, we know that the Prime Minister is willing to risk the possibility of a £3,000 drop in the living standards of the British people were Britain to leave the European Union. I fear that there would be an even bigger hit to the living standards of the citizens of Gibraltar if the Prime Minister’s reckless gamble, all because his party is so divided, were not to pay off. Taking away from Gibraltarians the benefits of European Union membership without giving them any say in the matter would be a cruel act against them by this Parliament.

There is certainly precedent for the inclusion of Gibraltarians in British votes concerning Europe. As I think the hon. Member for Romford and certainly the hon. Member for Cheltenham made clear, the European Parliament (Representation) Act 2003 provides for Gibraltar to be enfranchised for elections to the European Parliament. As many hon. Members may recall, the Act required the Electoral Commission to propose a region in England and Wales with which the citizens of Gibraltar could participate in European parliamentary elections. The region chosen was the south-west. I understand that in European elections since that Act Gibraltarians have been enfranchised appropriately and have taken part enthusiastically in those elections. Indeed, they will have the opportunity to vote again with the south-west region in the upcoming European elections next May.

Given how deeply divided the Conservative party is on Europe and how little influence Tory MEPs have, I hope that Gibraltarians will vote Labour, and that they will remember that it was only because of the intervention of Labour’s Front Bench in the form of my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) and certain Back Benchers—I should give an honourable mention in dispatches to the hon. Member for Cheltenham—that their situation got any recognition at all.

After the Committee stage of the Bill had begun, my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East wrote to the Chief Minister of Gibraltar explaining why she had tabled amendments to the Bill over the summer. The Chief Minister recently wrote back to her suggesting a slight tweak to the amendments. That is why her amendments were withdrawn earlier this week and I tabled amendment 63 to probe further the intentions of the Bill’s promoter and the Minister. I welcome the fact that, albeit very belatedly, the Bill’s promoter has tabled amendment 80. Given that the Minister for Europe has confirmed his support for that amendment, I do not intend to press my amendment to a Division.

I turn to the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South referred at some length to the amendment, too, as well as to his own similar amendment regarding the position of the citizens of Britain’s overseas territories. Britain has some 14 overseas territories encompassing a diverse range of cultures and communities across the world. They range from the tiny Pitcairn Island, with its 47 inhabitants, to Bermuda, with a population of over 62,000.

Some overseas British territories will be particularly familiar to Members in all parts of the House; others less so. The Falkland Islands, for example, is well known to many in this House and is itself very familiar with the business of referendums. At the referendum on the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands this March, 99.8% of its people voted to remain a British territory. An astonishing turnout of 92% meant that only three votes were cast against the Falkland Islands staying with the UK. One could not then argue that Falkland islanders were disengaged with the political process. Yet should this Bill become law, the Prime Minister will be putting at risk the benefits that the Falkland islanders get through Britain’s membership of the European Union. I say again that we know from the CBI’s work this week that the Prime Minister is putting at risk more than £3,000 of every British household’s income in order to try to hold his party together.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

I am not sure whether my hon. Friend, who is a London MP, takes The Northern Echo newspaper, but I recommend it to him. The Deputy Prime Minister has this morning rightly congratulated Nissan on its new generation of vehicles, but he has also pointed out that if we leave the EU, Nissan’s investment would go, too.

[Mr Thomas]

I apologise to the editor of The Northern Echo because I do not take the paper regularly, although I have heard it is a very good read. I am aware that Nissan’s boss has said that if the UK leaves the EU, the company would have to reconsider its future strategy and investments. It is astonishing that the Prime Minister is willing to put at risk Nissan’s investment. I suspect that if Britain exits the EU the risk for the living standards of Falkland islanders, like those of Gibraltarians, will be even greater than that for British households.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not just Nissan’s investment that will be put at risk, but Hitachi’s excellent new investment in the north-east of England for making trains? Does he also agree that it is ironic that, when the groundbreaking ceremony took place at the Newton Aycliffe site last Friday, the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) showed up for a photo opportunity? It is blatant that if this Bill progresses and we leave the EU, that investment and those jobs would not be in the north-east.

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. It is a tragedy that the hon. Member for Stockton South, who is responsible for this Bill, is not in his place to defend his actions.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Obviously, lots of things are said in this Chamber, but I am duty bound to point out that the hon. Member for Stockton South has been present for most of the time and that he informed the Chair that he needed to pop out for a few minutes. Although speculation is rife, I am sure he will be back very soon.

[Mr Thomas]

If the hon. Gentleman does come back soon, I would certainly be willing to accept an intervention from him so that he can defend his behaviour.

[Chris Williamson]

I note that my hon. Friend does not take The Northern Echo, but does he take the Derby Evening Telegraph? Just down the road from where the paper is based is the Toyota factory, which was the biggest inward investment in western Europe when it was made. It is clear that, were it not for Britain’s membership of the European Union, that investment would not have come to the UK and to Derbyshire. It has benefitted my constituency and the county and created thousands upon thousands of jobs. Would my hon. Friend care to comment on the impact that this Bill and leaving the EU would have on Toyota?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. We are talking about the specific amendments, which are about the franchise. I cannot quite see how they stretch as far as Toyota, unless the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) is going to enlighten me.

[Mr Thomas]

I hope to come to the amendments on the possibility of giving 16 and 17-year-olds—some of whom may be looking forward to a career in Toyota—the right to vote. Let me clarify that I do not read the Derby Evening Telegraph. I happen to think that the Harrow Observer and the Harrow Times are the better newspapers to read.

[Seema Malhotra]

I could, of course, introduce the Hounslow Chronicle to the competition, but I will refrain from doing so.

On extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, does my hon. Friend agree that they should have a say in this incredibly important debate and referendum, given the importance of the stability of the UK economy for their future? Roughly half the European headquarters of non-EU firms are based in the UK—more than most other countries put together. This issue will have a tremendous impact on youth unemployment and potential jobs in the future.

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I will come to the issue of 16 and 17-year-olds shortly.

The benefits that Falkland islanders enjoy on account of Britain’s membership of the European Union are not insignificant. I was surprised on Monday when the Minister for Europe confirmed to me in a written parliamentary answer that the Government had made no preparations for the UK leaving the European Union. There are no transitional arrangements in case the people of Britain vote no. Presumably, there has also been no thought about the consequences of a possible exit for the Falkland Islands or any other overseas territory. We have the astonishing situation of the Prime Minister sleepwalking towards an exit from the European Union with no thought of the consequences for British citizens or for our overseas territories.

I have spoken about the trade advantages that the overseas territories gain from being linked to the European Union. I am sorry that the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) is not in his place, because he is certainly aware of the significant fishing interests that the Falkland Islands has in relation to trade with the European Union. As well as the trade advantages, the overseas territories also benefit from the European development fund. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East said, the 11th European development fund has allocated just over €4 million to the Falkland Islands, with further payments expected to start from early-2014.

Many other overseas territories have benefited from the European development fund. Montserrat, a territory that I have had the pleasure of visiting, has been in need of support ever since the Soufrière Hills volcano, which had been dormant for centuries, erupted and buried the island’s capital, Plymouth. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East said, Montserrat received almost €16 million from the last European development fund for infrastructure and other development. Anguilla has received €12 million, St Helena, Ascension Island and Tristan da Cunha have received some €16.6 million, and the Pitcairn Islands has received about €2.4 million.

In the recent European Committee to which my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South referred, I asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds):

“Have any discussions begun with overseas territories about the possible loss of EDF funding and their beneficiary trade deals with other European countries?”

Bearing in mind that Government Members hope to persuade the British people of the Eurosceptic case for Britain to vote to leave the European Union, his response was that

“talking about hypothetical situations that are years away is dangerous, and asking questions based on assumptions, however real they may or may not be, is not necessarily a good use of time.”—[Official Report, European Committee B, 23 October 2013; c. 20.]

Perhaps the Under-Secretary of State ought to have a word with the Prime Minister, who offered exactly such a scenario when he pledged to hold a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU in 2017. That pledge was based on fragile assumptions about negotiations that not only have not started yet, but during which the Prime Minister has no idea what he hopes to achieve or simply will not tell this House what he hopes to achieve.

I am therefore sympathetic to the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South that seek to address the problem that the British overseas territories will be excluded from a matter that could have a detrimental effect not only on their income, but on their trading ability. I am interested to hear how the Minister can justify their exclusion. If the Minister and the promoter of the Bill are not minded to accept my hon. Friend’s amendments, perhaps they will consider amendment 70 in the next group, which would hardwire into any referendum the opportunity for the views of our friends in the overseas territories to be heard.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South also tabled amendment 44 on the voting age for the proposed referendum. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition spoke in his extremely well-received conference speech in September of the need to make 16 and 17-year-olds part of our democracy. I suspect that Government Members did not see that bit of his speech, because they were at sixes and sevens over another part of it. I could not agree more with my right hon. Friend’s clear commitment to the democratic enfranchisement of our young people. It would send a strong signal to young people who are suffering disproportionately under the current Government—people who have lost their education maintenance allowance, whose tuition fees will treble, and who are going through an often disheartening and bleak time searching for a job. Amendment 44 could send a powerful signal of the House’s intent to listen to the concerns of 16 and 17-year-olds.

The Prime Minister once famously asked us all to hug a hoodie. I think that according to the Daily Mail, it is now just “hug a Tory”. I do not suggest such bizarre measures, but I do suggest that we should listen to what young people have to say.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. In fact, in having discussed Crown dependencies, overseas territories and so on, we can look at some of those places, such as the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey, for examples of where 16 to 18-year-olds can vote. If we look close to home, we can learn some lessons.

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I hope he will forgive me if I say that I have not looked at those examples, because I have been spending so much time reading through the Committee proceedings on the Bill. However, I accept that there are other good examples to point to.

[Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend not find it rather strange that 16 and 17-year-olds are not being given a vote under the Bill whereas they are in the Scottish referendum? That seems anomalous and bizarre. Surely they should be given a vote in the EU referendum should the Bill succeed.

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes a good point and, in a moment, I will come to an even more bizarre twist related to the Scottish referendum and the rights of 16 and 17-year-olds.

I cannot be alone in having received letters and e-mails over the past few weeks from young people who are undertaking their citizenship coursework. I have received petitions on such meaty topics as euthanasia, homelessness and child poverty, and each time I have been struck by how well informed and engaged young people are with some of the big issues facing the country. If Conservative Members are to be believed, Europe is the single biggest of those issues.

[Seema Malhotra]

Does my hon. Friend agree that sending a positive message today about votes for 16 and 17-year-olds would be timely given that the UK Youth Parliament will be sitting in the Chamber next week and discussing a range of matters, including votes at 16 and 17?

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. If the Home Secretary were to endorse the idea of 16 and 17-year-olds taking part in any referendum under the Bill, that would send a great message about the potential for them to take part in all our elections in future.

[Mr Sheerman]

My hon. Friend is making a good speech, but he knows that I have a long track record of disagreeing with votes at 16. The most bizarre argument that people make is that we have to introduce the vote at 16, because the Scots are going to have it in the referendum. Since when does Alex Salmond decide this country’s constitutional procedures?

[Mr Thomas]

I would not want to upset my hon. Friend further, but he makes a good point. I will come to the Scottish referendum in a moment.

I have never bought the argument that young people are not interested in politics, even if, sadly, like the rest of the country, they do not hold politicians in high regard at the moment. As my hon. Friend might recognise, there is a palpable disconnect between many young people and the political process. I believe there is consensus throughout the House that we must address the worrying trend of poor voter turnout among 18 to 24-year-olds, and amendment 44 could help with that ambition. I understand that people in that section of our society are among the least likely to vote. One MORI poll showed that only 39% of 18 to 24-year-olds were likely to vote, which is a worrying statistic.

We know that voting habits are formed at a young age, so if someone votes at the first election for which they are eligible, they are more likely to continue voting for the remainder of their life. Would it not be sensible for young people to have their first voting experience—in this case in a possible referendum—collectively while still at school or college? When I visit schools or colleges throughout the parliamentary year—it is particularly interesting to visit sixth forms and colleges at general election time—I see the excitement of some of those potential first-time voters who are carefully weighing up everything being said and deciding in whom to put their trust. Whenever there is an election or referendum, should we not be able to go into schools, sixth forms and colleges and talk to all those young people over the age of 16, and tell them that we value their views?

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making a compelling case about 16 and 17-year-olds voting, and he is right to talk about engaging people in schools. When I go to high schools and speak to 16 and 17-year-olds, they are much more engaged in the political debate now they know they will have a vote in the Scottish referendum. In fact, they are so engaged in political debate that the vast majority are voting no.

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, and perhaps I could encourage him to have a further conversation outside the Chamber with my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman). By including 16 and 17-year-olds in a debate, we would be involving in this discussion about a referendum an often passionate voice. If this issue is of such importance, as Conservative Members seem to believe, should not those with their lives ahead of them and those facing the particular challenges I have outlined—jobs, university fees and so on—have their voice heard too? Without the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South, 16 and 17-year-olds will be excluded.

[Seema Malhotra]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Thomas]

Let me make a little progress. There is an old adage that young people grow up too quickly these days, but I think we must consider fairly the responsibilities that already rest on some young shoulders at 16. Young people are old enough to go to work, join our armed forces and have children—they even have to pay full fare on the bus unless they are still in full-time education. If they earn enough, they have to pay tax. With all those responsibilities, we suggest that they should also have the right to vote and have their say along with the rest of the country in any elections and referendums.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know that you follow the rules of the House closely, and clearly the rules on photography in the Chamber are very strict. As you know, this morning I have been keeping a close eye on the Box, and I was aware that a minute ago one of its occupants was holding up his mobile phone. I do not know whether he inadvertently did not know the rules on filming proceedings, and I ask for your guidance on that, Madam Deputy Speaker.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

The serious work on the reform of the European Union is already under way. I know that my hon. Friend will be delighted by the successful reform of the common fisheries policy, the ban on discarding, the push towards local regional management of fisheries, the cut in the EU budget, and the moves on deregulation that this Government have already achieved, even in coalition.

[Mr Thomas]

The Minister is just talking about the past. What powers and competences does he think the Prime Minister wants to bring back? The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) asked a perfectly reasonable question. Will the Minister answer it? What has he got to hide?

[Mr Lidington]

What I would like to know from the hon. Gentleman and his party is whether they want to give the British people a say in our future in Europe or they are determined to deny them that say.

Given the reality of the debate that will take place, and given that the Electoral Commission would appoint umbrella organisations for yes and no campaigns, this well-intentioned new schedule is unnecessary because there is no need to specify organisations in that way.

The same is true of the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) about religious holidays and potential clashes with other elections. These matters already have to be considered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

The amendments touch on matters that every Government already have to consider in looking at election dates. Successive Governments have taken a pragmatic approach to those matters, and it would be disproportionate to include them in the Bill.

[Mr Thomas]

Surely the Minister thinks that the British people are entitled to know what plan B would be if a referendum that the Prime Minister calls leads to a British exit. Why not, then, consult the CBI about the Switzerland option or the Norway option? Why will he not concede that possibility and the need for that consultation?

[Mr Lidington]

It is already open to the CBI and to any other such organisations to express their views fully and vigorously, and that is what they do at all times, in conversations with Ministers, in publications, and in debates and forums. I know that the hon. Gentleman has only just been appointed to this role, but he ought to wake up and see the debate that is actually going on rather than trying to invoke some kind of Aunt Sally.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

I am afraid that the Government rules on accepting hospitality are already strict and limit what Ministers can do. The key point is that the Sochi winter Olympics will provide an opportunity for people from this country, including journalists and editors, to meet and engage with Russians of all backgrounds and to stand up for the values in which we believe.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

As these exchanges have reinforced, there is concern on both sides of the House about the continuing detention of the British Greenpeace activists and journalists. Given the growing fears about the conditions in which they are being held—conditions condemned by the European Court of Human Rights last year, I understand—and the length of time they are likely to be incarcerated, can I ask the Minister gently what exactly it will take for the Foreign Secretary to persuade the Prime Minister to intervene on their behalf?

[Mr Lidington]

First, may I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new responsibilities? Of course this is a return to European activity from the days when Tony Blair appointed him as one of his champions of the single currency in the Labour party. Having served his time in quarantine, he is now being allowed out again.

The hon. Gentleman may not have been here yesterday, but my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made it clear at the Dispatch Box that he stood ready to speak to President Putin whenever that would best help the welfare of those who are being detained and lead to a satisfactory outcome for them. The search for a satisfactory outcome to this case remains at the top of the Government’s priorities, and it determines how we handle individual representations.

Human Rights (Commonwealth)

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Wednesday 11th September 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Given that the UN Commission on Human Rights is in session this month, my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) has done the House a service by ensuring that we have the opportunity to debate human rights across the Commonwealth.

Like previous speakers, I want to focus on Sri Lanka. I therefore warmly welcome the comments of my hon. Friends the Members for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) and for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), as well as the opening remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham.

My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden alluded to the fact that Navi Pillay, the UN’s human rights commissioner, visited Sri Lanka at the end of August and held extensive meetings with people in the north and the east, as well as with Government officials, politicians and a series of organisations. She is the most senior UN official to have visited the north since the UN Secretary-General visited back in 2009. Although it is welcome that Ms Pillay was allowed to go wherever she wanted, it is striking that she has reported that the Sri Lankans who came to meet her were harassed and intimidated by security forces before and after their meetings.

Ms Pillay’s statement following her visit was particularly striking. She noted, among other things, that the surveillance and harassment that she described appear to be getting worse in Sri Lanka, where critical voices are often attacked or even permanently silenced. She outlined concerns about recent attacks on religious minorities and reported a series of complaints about missing relatives, military land grabs and life without basic facilities. Given that Ms Pillay is such a senior figure in the UN, the bluntness and directness of her comments are striking.

Ms Pillay’s concerns are far from isolated. As my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden alluded to, Amnesty International continues to highlight the lack of genuine, substantial measures on the part of the Government of Sri Lanka to meet their human rights obligations. There remains a significant body of evidence pointing to serious human rights violations, some of which amount to war crimes or crimes against humanity, including extra-judicial executions, enforced disappearances and the intentional shelling of citizens. Critics of the Government, whether they are Sinhalese, Tamil, Muslim or Christian, continue to face harassment. Torture in police custody is routine, and attacks on minorities appear to be increasingly widespread and tolerated.

According to Amnesty International, there have been more than 20 attacks on Muslim places of worship and businesses in the past 12 months. There was apparently no known investigation into an attack in July on the Arafa Jumma mosque in Mahiyangana. Apparently, a Government Minister simply ordered that the mosque be closed. Journalists, opposition candidates, human rights activists and particularly Tamils in the north and the east are routinely harassed, intimidated and assaulted.

As other hon. Members have said, the question remains, why on earth are Commonwealth Heads of State still planning to meet in Sri Lanka for their annual summit, thereby validating the regime? As the House is aware and as other Members have restated, the Canadian Government have made clear their profound concern. Indeed, Prime Minister Harper has said he will not attend the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting if Sri Lanka remains the host.

A series of other eminent Commonwealth advocates have highlighted Sri Lanka’s unsuitability to host CHOGM. Their concerns are thrown into sharp relief by the new Commonwealth charter, which was agreed in March by Her Majesty the Queen, following the agreement of the rest of the Commonwealth states. The charter was one of the key recommendations made by the eminent persons group to reform the Commonwealth that was accepted at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in October 2011, and the Prime Minister committed to it. Perhaps the most crucial passage in the charter is:

“We are committed to equality and respect for the protection and promotion of civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights, including the right to development, for all without discrimination on any grounds as the foundations of peaceful, just and stable societies.”

The Sri Lankan Government can by no means be painted as achieving, or even be perceived as taking serious steps to achieve, that commitment. I therefore continue to be surprised at how little effort Ministers have put into using the CHOGM as leverage to achieve reform in Sri Lanka. Why, for example, have the Prime Minister and the Foreign Office not sought to build a coalition to have Sri Lanka formally put on the agenda of the Commonwealth ministerial action group? There may be meetings of Commonwealth Ministers where the subject of Sri Lanka comes up; but that is not the same as a decision to put it on the agenda of the ministerial action group.

In the past, countries such as Zimbabwe, Pakistan, Nigeria and Fiji have all been—indeed, Fiji still is—formal items on the ministerial action group agenda. An implicit rebuke is thereby sent from the whole Commonwealth, and it is forced to set up a series of actions to be taken to bring a country back in line with Commonwealth values. If the Minister and his colleagues are serious about wanting to apply pressure to the Rajapaksa Government, perhaps he will commit today to building a coalition of Commonwealth countries to put Sri Lanka on the Commonwealth ministerial action group agenda. Given the importance of Canada’s views within the Commonwealth, Britain would surely have a crucial ally in beginning to apply the pressure necessary to achieve that end.

I should welcome clarification of the Minister’s view of the Commonwealth secretary-general’s performance in his handling of human rights concerns in Sri Lanka. I can find no evidence of any statement even of concern from him. He has agreed to organise an observer mission to follow the provincial elections in the north of Sri Lanka, but in the context of widespread human rights abuses, that invitation appears to be another example of the observance of the forms of democracy, rather than its substance. If I am right to think that Mr Sharma has not spoken out, it is surprising that a secretary-general who presided over a recommitment to the Commonwealth’s democratic values and traditions as recently as March should have nothing to say about continuing human rights abuses in Sri Lanka—never mind those that date back to the events of 2009.

If the Prime Minister goes to Sri Lanka without taking any further significant steps, he will be validating the regime and giving it succour and comfort. He will create further incentives for Mr Rajapaksa and his colleagues to continue to ignore Commonwealth values.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Thomas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Swire]

I think I know what the hon. Gentleman is going to say and I will answer his question about CMAG in a minute.

Although respect for human rights across the Commonwealth is uneven, we have an opportunity to address that, guided by the principles set out in its charter. As we heard from hon. Members this afternoon, the charter was presented to Parliament in March and it commits members to

“equality and respect for the protection and promotion of civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights for all, without discrimination on any grounds”.

Used effectively, the charter will inform debate and provoke change. Circumstances in some member states may lead some to doubt the strength of that commitment or the capacity of the Commonwealth to bring about change. I recognise that valid concerns exist, but we must grasp the opportunity that the charter offers. Reform will not happen overnight—I am realistic about that—but I am confident that the Commonwealth can deliver.

In the remaining moments, I shall address our attendance in Sri Lanka, which is an issue we are divided over: some hon. Members think that we should not go to Sri Lanka and others think that we should. The right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), who is no longer in his place, thinks that we should not. My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole, who is in his place, thinks—I think rightly—that we should. It is worth pointing out the history. In 2009, Sri Lanka offered to host CHOGM in 2011. At CHOGM in Trinidad and Tobago in 2009, the Heads of Government decided not to accept the offer and decided that Australia should host CHOGM in Perth in 2011. They decided that Sri Lanka should host in 2013, and that decision was reaffirmed in Perth, at which the Commonwealth representative was a Minister from the previous Government. There was no widespread support among the Heads of Government for a change of location.

The hon. Member for Bristol East mentioned the Commonwealth day debate on 14 March. As she said, since the debate the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary and I have decided to attend the meeting. That is the right thing for the Commonwealth—an organisation we strongly support—which has a positive role to play in promoting freedom, democracy and human rights. The non-attendance of Her Majesty was also raised. It is worth pointing out for the record that Her Majesty, as head of the Commonwealth, will be represented by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. That CHOGM will discuss the crucial issue of what will succeed the millennium development goals in 2015, following the publication of the report of the high-level panel, co-chaired by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. It is important that the Commonwealth articulates a clear view that recognises the centrality of Commonwealth values such as gender equality, good governance and the rule of law to the enabling of development. We are pressing for the discussion of those values to play an important part at CHOGM.

We must be willing to respond if we think that the actions of fellow members do not reflect the values we espouse. We will take with us to Colombo a clear message that the British Government have given consistently in this Parliament, in the UN human rights council and in our contacts with the Sri Lankan Government: Sri Lanka must make progress on human rights, reconciliation and a political settlement. A key test of that will be the northern provincial council elections on 21 September, which we are pleased the Commonwealth and the South Asian Association for Regional Co-operation have been invited to observe—a positive step forward. On such issues, the Commonwealth is complementing the work of other bodies such as the UN. The human rights council passed a resolution in March, co-sponsored by the UK, calling for reconciliation and accountability in Sri Lanka.

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, visited Sri Lanka last month and expressed strong concerns, many of which we and others in the Commonwealth share—and those concerns certainly seem to be shared by hon. Members this afternoon. CHOGM will focus attention sharply on the work yet to be done to achieve the aims that the Sri Lankan Government themselves have agreed in follow-up to the report of the Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission. It will allow Commonwealth Governments to understand better the problems still affecting Sri Lanka and consider what support they, and the Commonwealth collectively, can offer.

As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary told the House on 3 September, we have concerns about media and non-governmental organisation freedom at CHOGM and have pressed the Sri Lankan Government to allow unhindered access. My ministerial colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), will reiterate that message when he visits the country on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government in October.

I was asked why there is no reference to LGBT rights in the Commonwealth charter. The charter explicitly states:

“We are implacably opposed to all forms of discrimination, whether rooted in gender, race, colour, creed, political belief or other grounds.”

Our view is that the phrases “all forms of discrimination” and “or other grounds” cover discrimination against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, as well as any other form of discrimination. The way of life of LGBT people is criminalised in over 40 member states, and they live with dreadful prejudice in some of them. The appalling attitudes towards homosexuality that persist in some Commonwealth countries threaten to undermine the commitment to non-discrimination that is central to the charter.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

I understand the concerns of the right hon. Lady, as do all hon. Members. This is a decision for the Commonwealth. It decided by consensus that the Heads of Government meeting should be in Colombo. The Commonwealth recognises the issues of concern in Sri Lanka. There is no doubt that whoever ends up going to CHOGM, from whatever country, Sri Lanka will be in the spotlight. The progress that can be made on a number of the positive recommendations of the Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission is a key topic that many will want to address. We want Sri Lanka to get to where it professes it wants to go. However, I agree with the right hon. Lady entirely that the evidence of that at present is pretty scant.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

21. On human rights abuses, the British and US assessments of the level of torture in Sri Lanka seem to be at variance. The FCO says merely that reports of torture continue, while the US State Department says that there is“widespread impunity for a broad range of human rights abuses, particularly involving police torture”.Why the difference of views?

[Alistair Burt]

We judge the evidence of torture that is brought to us and make our calculations upon it. We have expressed concern about incidents of torture. Our asylum processes take account of the possibility that some people, but not all, could be subject to torture. Cases are dealt with on an individual basis. Part of the overall picture of human rights concerns in Sri Lanka is that the Government appear to be determined to address the issue, but the evidence remains difficult to see in certain cases. We will continue to press the case and we know that this is a matter of great interest to all right hon. and hon. Members.

Sri Lanka

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Siobhain McDonagh]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. We all have faith in the Minister, and we ask him to take action.

As there is no justice or accountability with the LLRC, what we see instead is a culture of impunity—enforced disappearances, extrajudicial killings, gender-based violence as well as the recent trumped-up impeachment proceedings against the Chief Justice—which is testament to the breakdown of the rule of law in Sri Lanka. Just as we had a responsibility to protect civilians at the time of the killings, so too do we now for ensuring that there is accountability.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does my hon. Friend accept that there are credible reports that torture is routinely being used against the Tamil community remaining in Sri Lanka? Constituents have come to my surgery with clear evidence of torture, which backs up the more widespread reports from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch that torture is still going on routinely in the country.

[Siobhain McDonagh]

I completely accept what my hon. Friend says about the ongoing torture against Tamils in Sri Lanka. It must be said though that other ethnic groups are also being tortured now.

Without accountability, we are seeing torture, disappearances and killings, yet the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting is still scheduled to take place in Colombo in November. What sort of message does that send out? The Commonwealth was right a couple of years ago to take away from Sri Lanka the honour of hosting a summit. If it was right to do that then, how can it be right now to let Sri Lanka have that honour when our fears about its Government have been confirmed? Canada has bravely stated that it will not attend the 2013 summit unless significant progress is made on human rights and accountability. Why cannot Britain show the same leadership? Why are we so determined to brush accountability under the carpet, just as the UN did with the evidence of atrocities four years ago?

In November, I wrote to the Prime Minister imploring him to do the responsible thing. I pointed out that the number of people who had been killed in the space of just five months was roughly the same as the entire population of the major towns of his constituency: Witney, Carterton and Chipping Norton. Those poor people were herded into an area smaller than the Prime Minister’s constituency, tricked into believing that it was a safe zone and then relentlessly targeted while the institutions of the international community made a deliberate choice not to help, even though they knew what was happening. I pointed out that Britain’s Tamil community, which numbers more than 250,000 people, is still grieving. I asked what the British Government were doing to ensure that there is justice for Tamils now. In particular, I said that it would send out a terrible message if Sri Lanka were permitted the honour of hosting the CHOGM. I said:

“If a nation had systematically killed every single person you knew in Witney, Carterton and Chipping Norton, raping and murdering in cold blood, I do not think that you would find it acceptable for that Government to host an event as prestigious as a Commonwealth summit, or for our Government to attend… The international community has admitted it failed to help Tamils before, and cancelling the summit will ensure that mistake is not compounded.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Siobhain McDonagh]

I am amazed by the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. As he knows, the process towards reconciliation has taken 600 years in Ireland. It is a struggle with which I am well acquainted because of my own family background. Unlike the Sri Lankan Government, the British Government under different parties accepted that there were things that they could and could not do. I accept that there were atrocities and human rights violations on the part of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. Democratically elected Governments are always judged to a higher standard.

Let me continue with what I said to the Prime Minister:

“The international community has admitted it failed to help Tamils before, and cancelling the summit will ensure that mistake is not compounded. I believe it is in the international community’s best interests—and the best interests of the United Kingdom, as well as of Sri Lanka—for there to be an independent international investigation into war crimes in order to bring a lasting peace in Sri Lanka after such a long period of ethnic conflict. However, while this continues not to take place, Sri Lanka should not be hosting the Commonwealth summit.”

The response was weak. The Prime Minister himself did not answer my letter, passing it instead to the Foreign Secretary. The reply was very disappointing. First, instead of supporting an international inquiry into Sri Lanka’s behaviour, he said that the Government

“believe that the process of reconciliation has a greater chance of success if investigations are Sri Lankan-led rather than externally imposed.”

He said that the British Government were concerned about the human rights abuses in Sri Lanka, such as

“disappearances, political violence and reports of torture in custody.”

However, what will the British Government do about them? We have not stopped deporting Tamils who are claiming asylum, even though most reasonable people would think that any Tamil who made a big deal about hating the Sri Lankan Government when they were in the UK might be most at risk of disappearance, violence and torture.

[Mr Thomas]

Is my hon. Friend aware of the recent report by Human Rights Watch, which cites examples of a number of asylum seekers deported from Britain and a number of other European countries who were tortured on their return to Sri Lanka?

[Siobhain McDonagh]

I am aware of that report, and I have also read appeal judgments and documents from the Medical Institute for Victims of Torture. I am well aware of some of the cases involved; indeed, some of them involve my constituents or my hon. Friend’s constituents.

The Foreign Secretary said:

“We seek to promote progress through direct lobbying, working with international partners, and funding human rights projects.”

I have to say that it is not very reassuring to learn that the Government’s approach to getting Sri Lanka to behave is to give it more money.

Finally, the Foreign Secretary fails to offer any support for the idea of a boycott of the Commonwealth summit, although he says the UK Government

“believe that the host of the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting should uphold the Commonwealth values of good governance and respect for human rights. We will look to Sri Lanka to demonstrate its commitment to these values, both now and in the run up to the meeting in 2013.”

I would be grateful if the Minister could expand a little upon that in his response to the debate. In what possible way does he think that Sri Lanka is currently demonstrating “commitment to these values”?

I note that the Minister is going to Sri Lanka later this year. No doubt his presence will be portrayed by the Government there as yet another vindication of their murderous approach. If he wants to ensure that his visit is not another public relations victory for a regime that feels it is immune from accountability for war crimes, will he use his visit as an opportunity to warn his hosts that Britain and the Queen will not be attending a summit that is built on blood? When my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (David Miliband) visited Sri Lanka in 2009, he was not afraid to confront the Rajapaksa regime. When the Minister visits Sri Lanka later this month, will he do the same as my right hon. Friend did, or will he have meetings about trade?

--- Later in debate ---

[Siobhain McDonagh]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and I will obviously take his views on board.

[Mr Thomas]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again. As she knows, I had the privilege of being a Minister in the Department for International Development during the last Government. As a result, I saw the private assessments of the situation in Sri Lanka, the type of which the Minister now has the opportunity to see. What was clear then was the scale of the human rights abuses that were being perpetrated. I do not think that we knew then the level of detail that has come out since, but we certainly knew that the Sri Lankan Government—through their military and paramilitary police, for example—were perpetrating considerable human rights abuses.

That was part of the reason why Britain led in Europe on the withdrawal of the GSP plus trading arrangements—the generalised scheme of preferences—which signalled our concern about human rights. My hon. Friend is rightly demanding that this Government show the same commitment as the last Government in demanding action by the Sri Lankan Government. It is a pity that we have not yet heard cross-party support for the aspiration for our Government to get a bit tougher with the Sri Lankan Government.

[Siobhain McDonagh]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend’s comments. Although I completely understand the duty of any Government—most importantly during a recession—to travel to gain more trade and support, I ask the Minister to consider whether that is appropriate in the case of Sri Lanka.

I say that because the last thing that the international community needs right now, after the failings of the past few years, is for Governments such as our own to put the pursuit of profit ahead of the responsibility to protect. The ongoing humanitarian crisis in Syria and the developing situation in the Democratic Republic of the Congo—two countries that I have never been to—both show why we need to be strong. A credible and robust approach to international relations by the UK, and more widely by the international community through the UN, is vital. When the UN internal review was published in November, Ban Ki-moon said:

“Our obligation to all humanity is to overcome our setbacks, learn from our mistakes, strengthen our responses, and act meaningfully and effectively for the future.”

However, I am very much afraid that the international community would rather move on and pretend that these events in Sri Lanka never happened, just as it turned a blind eye while the atrocities in the country were taking place. If we are not strong now, we will abdicate our moral authority over Sri Lanka. Regimes such as those in Syria and DRC will see that there is nothing to lose and that justice will not be served.

We have a responsibility to ensure that the international community’s failures in Sri Lanka are addressed. Accountability and reconciliation must take place. When the 22nd session of the UN’s Human Rights Council commences next month, our Government should take a lead. The issue of whether Sri Lanka has complied with previous resolutions on accountability and reconciliation should be a priority. The UN’s HRC, with Britain to the fore, must be prepared to take urgent action to initiate credible, independent investigations in Sri Lanka. For the sake of other civilians around the world who are under threat from their own Government, we have a responsibility to be strong. We should tell Sri Lanka in no uncertain terms that we cannot support its hosting the Commonwealth summit while its reputation is under a cloud. We have a duty to protect, and we cannot fulfil that responsibility by continuing to be weak, weak, weak.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Scott]

Thank you, Mr Hollobone. Can I have 30 seconds back for that?

All I really want to say is that I want justice for the Tamil people and for all Sri Lankans. For that to happen, however, the UN must play its role. Over a number of years, it let down the Tamil people and allowed things to happen that should never have been allowed.

[Mr Thomas]

I note the Chair’s comments about the time, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Does he share the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) that it would be wrong for Britain to attend the Commonwealth summit in Sri Lanka unless there is a dramatic change in the situation on the ground?

[Mr Scott]

I hope the Minister will address the issues that have been raised—

[Mr Thomas]

Where do you stand?

[Mr Scott]

Where do I stand? I am sorry, Mr Hollobone. The hon. Gentleman and I should not be having a conversation across the room. I apologise for that, as I am sure he does. Where do I stand? I want to see reconciliation and justice before any such thing happens. I think that is clear.

In my final 20 seconds, I should say that the Tamil people have suffered, and their diaspora suffers. There must be justice for all, but most importantly, at the UN’s meetings in March, I would like to hear what the Sri Lankan Government will do to ensure that an international inquiry shows what has happened and who is responsible so that those involved are brought to justice. I have gone five seconds over, Mr Hollobone, so I apologise.

Sri Lanka (Human Rights)

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Sharma]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I think that it would be better if I continued my speech, because the answers to the questions being raised now are ones that I will be developing later in my speech. I will definitely return to the issue.

Sri Lanka’s criminal justice system, which has been weakened in recent years due to the centralisation of power with the President, cannot even offer a credible domestic avenue to pursue accountability. As Amnesty International has stated, the system

“is subject to political pressure, lacks effective witness protection and is glacially slow…The system is so degraded that the vast majority of human rights violations over the past 20 years have never been investigated, let alone heard in court.”

That is the point that my learned colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), raised.

The failure to hold those responsible to account for rights abuses has led to the development of a culture of impunity in Sri Lanka where anything goes, particularly in the Tamil majority areas of the north and the east. The militarisation of the region and the resultant impact on independent, civilian administration means that many Tamils fear that their culture and identity are under existential threat.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend is making a very good speech. I agree with all the points that he has made so far. My hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) highlighted the ongoing human rights abuses. Does that not call into question the decision of the current UK Government to deport many Tamil refugees who are in the UK? Should we not seek from the Minister replying to the debate an explanation of the Government’s policy on deportations back to Sri Lanka? I ask that question of my hon. Friend in the context of a constituent whose brother is about to be deported back to Sri Lanka. This is a brother who lost a sister fighting for the Tamil Tigers and who understandably is worried about what will happen to his last relative should the family history be known when he returns to Sri Lanka.

[Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair)]

Order.

European Council

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

Indeed. In 2009 there was a trade deficit of £14 billion in goods and services, but since then it has risen to £51 million. Those figures speak for themselves.

Cuts in public expenditure cannot solve the problem on their own. We need enterprise for small and medium-sized businesses and drastic cuts in overregulation. We need enterprise, not strangulation. Indeed, we must insist on our ability to enter into trade relationships on our own terms, in our own national interests, and not be confined to a single trade policy dictated by the European Commission.

I was deeply alarmed to read in today’s City A.M. that Angela Merkel at Davos is encouraging more integration. She is quoted as saying:

“We have to become used to the European Commission becoming more and more like a government.”

She urges more and more Europe, but that Europe would be both undemocratic and increasingly dominated by Germany itself, as I have repeatedly stated for 20 years, and as The Economist concedes in this week’s edition. It states, following France’s downgrading, that

“the balance of power has long been shifting from the French President to the German Chancellor”,

and a former French economic Minister has said that

“Berlin is alone in the cockpit”.

That is not healthy for Germany or the UK, and certainly not for Europe. It now seems certain that President Sarkozy is on the way out, and Italy and Greece have technocratic Prime Ministers. Democracy is dwindling and diminishing. The Franco-German partnership is now a hollow reminder of German strength and French weakness. This is all the more reason why the UK must insist on leading Europe out of this crisis with Euro-realist policies and an insistence on government by consent. Sadly, Germany believes in government by rule, and is now even proposing the European Commission as the anchor of European government.

There has been much agitated activity in seeking to resolve the Greek bankruptcy, but there has been no result. A few days ago I came across a five-page article written in 1998 setting out exactly why Greece should not be allowed into the European Union, which was of course ignored. Every member state is responsible for this failure of judgment and must bear the consequences. It is a pity that those such as George Soros who are now wringing their hands in Davos did not listen to the Euro-realist arguments instead of condemning and mocking them.

On the draft agreement, we must bear in mind that the issues now being presented to the British electorate and the European Union are more political than legal. There are still fundamental legal problems in the latest draft of the agreement between the 26. There must be no misunderstanding: this deal is flawed in seeking to incorporate the European Commission and the European Court of Justice, which are institutions of the EU, into a non-EU treaty.

Furthermore, what is the basis in the treaty on the functioning of the European Union for the proposed powers, including infringement powers, to be conferred on the European Commission under article 8 of the agreement? Prima facie, that is unlawful, given the prohibition on infringement proceedings under article 126(10) of the treaty. There are serious doubts about the use of article 273 in relation to issues of jurisdiction. There is also the issue of enhanced co-operation under article 10, which bypasses the treaty requirement that enhanced co-operation should be used only as a last resort; the agreement proposes its use “whenever appropriate and necessary”. This could cause serious damage to British national interests in relation to the internal market.

My Committee, the European Scrutiny Committee, will be investigating all these matters with the assistance of evidence from witnesses from all sides of the equation. There is a further problem of whether the treaty to establish the European stability mechanism can come into force before the amendment to the Lisbon treaty, so that member states could allow such a treaty, given that the United Kingdom has not yet ratified it. I would be grateful if the Minister would answer these questions when he responds to the debate; I hope that he is listening to what I am saying. We urgently need to know whether the Government have received the fifth, and presumably final, draft. If not, will he tell us when they will, and when it will be sent to the European Scrutiny Committee?

With regard to article 13, will the UK Parliament be involved in the proposed inter-parliamentary conference? If so, will the European Scrutiny Committee be invited to attend? At present no one knows how that arrangement will work in practice—there are serious question marks over the agreement—but we know that it will be determined by German demands and conditions. I do not blame Germany for its pride and defence of its own national interests, but I do not believe that we the UK should pay one penny to provide funds for an EU bail-out which, if it were done within the European Union itself, would be blatantly unlawful.

Mme Lagarde, who is now head of the International Monetary Fund, openly admitted in September 2010 that to save the euro,

“we violated all the rules”.

It is ironic that she should now be in charge of a further attempt to bypass the rules. That is outrageous, and I am glad that America has quite rightly said that it believes that Europe should sort out its own mess. However, that will be achieved through policies for genuine growth, and not through bail-outs with fictitious money and a refusal to face up to Euro-reality.

We now live in peaceful democratic times, and we must therefore insist on our Westminster democracy as the basis for protecting our national interest. Let us therefore get down to the business of letting the British people have their say, and of saving the United Kingdom from impending disaster and the European Union from itself. We must turn our eyes to the sunlit uplands of enterprise and international trade, earn our way in the world by our own efforts and re-create the foundations of true independence of action and prosperity for our own country.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I apologise for interrupting the debate, but my attention has been drawn to media reports about the future of RAF Northolt, which is next to my constituency. Apparently, there might be Government plans to develop RAF Northolt as an alternative to the Boris island airport, or as a satellite terminal for Heathrow. That is potentially of huge concern to my constituents, and I wonder whether you have received a statement from the Government setting out their real thinking.

[Mr Speaker]

I have received no indication from the Government of their intentions on this matter, but I have a hunch that the hon. Gentleman will pursue the issue doggedly and tenaciously.

Human Rights on the Indian Subcontinent

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Thursday 15th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Binley]

Of course, I accept that statement from my hon. Friend with no problem whatever.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is being customarily generous in giving way, but I join some of his hon. Friends and many Opposition Members who share concerns about the way in which Sri Lanka has conducted itself, particularly since the end of the conflict. It is a matter of record as, surely, he will be generous enough to recognise, that the International Committee of the Red Cross was for far too long denied access to prisons in Sri Lanka, which held many of those whom the Sri Lankan Government had chosen to detain.

[Mr Binley]

I share the hon. Gentleman’s concerns and I have made those concerns known to the Sri Lankan Government.

Sri Lanka needs a chance to heal, but that will not happen in an atmosphere of hiatus and emotive external interventions. We must all be careful because, as has been said, we share responsibility for the situation. That is clear, and we have to do all we can to help the Sri Lankan Government, who are trying to make considerable advances. They are trying to address the alleged crimes and human rights abuses and they are trying to provide a credible process for overcoming the issues facing internally displaced people. They are trying to achieve a sustainable political settlement, including on devolution, and those casting aspersions need to be careful about the statements that they make of what they say are facts but often are not.

As stated, one consequence of the conflict has been the significant numbers of internally displaced persons. I said that I had visited Puttalam, where I saw 160,000 people in the most terrible conditions, and that I talked to many of them. They said that they were displaced by shelling and demolition. Equally, though, some had been displaced by, and were scared of, the Tamil Tigers. That needs to be understood as well, if we are to be balanced in our judgment.

Hindi Radio Service (BBC)

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

This is an important Adjournment debate about the future of the BBC’s Hindi radio service. At the moment, it is broadcast for three hours a day, divided between the morning and the evening, and reaches no fewer than 10 million listeners, mostly in the northern Hindi-speaking regions of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and Jharkhand. Hindi is the second largest language audience of the BBC World Service worldwide—of course, English is the first—and it is precisely these three poorer states in India that the Department for International Development has committed to support until 2015 to the tune of £280 million.

The BBC is cutting its shortwave Hindi service, which costs £1 million a year, but once cut, it will save just 2.5p per listener. This, I contend, is the wrong saving to make, and I very much hope that the BBC will think again. The BBC Hindi service began in May 1940, on the very same day that Churchill became Prime Minister, and it employed I. K. Gujral, who later became the 13th Prime Minister of India. The Hindi service was also the first news outlet to break the news of Indira Gandhi’s assassination.

There has been a so-called partial reprieve—I would call it a climbdown—after the massive outcry over the total abolition of a radio service that serves 10 million people, and which most radio stations in the world would give their eye tooth to have. However, all that will do is save one hour of Hindi broadcasting for just one year, and that is not enough. The work schedules of the poorest Indians mean that they can often hear only one broadcast or the other. Many listeners want their radio news in the morning. This decision will wipe out a large proportion of the audience overnight.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is widespread concern across the UK about the decision that the BBC appears to be making? Many of my constituents share his concerns about the future direction of the BBC on this service.

[Mr Leigh]

I am grateful for that intervention, which shows the wide cross-party support on this issue, in a well-attended debate, and a lot of determination, in all parts of the House, to resist the BBC’s short-sighted decision.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) on securing this debate and on attracting such conspicuous and widespread support from both sides of the House this evening. As he said, the BBC Hindi service is not, after all, being completely discontinued. The World Service had announced that the shortwave broadcasts would be stopped, but that the FM and online service would continue. However, the World Service has now been able to identify savings from within its budget to postpone the cessation of the shortwave service. Like many Members who have spoken this evening or attested to their support for my hon. Friend through their presence in the Chamber, we welcome this recent decision by the BBC World Service board.

There is no doubt that the BBC World Service is a much-respected and much-loved British institution. As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary made clear on 26 January, it performs an invaluable role, reflecting British democratic values overseas and supporting British influence in the world. The services it provides are a beacon to many in some of the poorest and most insecure countries of the world.

It is also true that the World Service, like any other body funded by the taxpayer, must ensure that it is working on the right priorities and as efficiently as possible. Last October, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary announced that the World Service’s expenditure limits would be reduced by 16% in real terms over the next three years. There is no doubt that these cuts are challenging, but it is right that all parts of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office family should contribute to reducing the deficit inherited from the previous Government. As part of the settlement, and to provide a balanced package, the Foreign Office provides £13 million a year to help with the deficit in BBC pension funds and £10 million a year for new services in markets that we and the World Service have identified as priorities.

My hon. Friend touched on the division of responsibilities between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the BBC World Service, and the broadcasting agreement between the two sets out clearly the responsibilities of each. My right hon. Friend, together with the BBC, sets the objectives, priorities and targets for the World Service and gives his authority for the opening or closure of any foreign language service. Other changes fall under the managerial independence of the World Service and are its responsibility.

From 2014, the funding for the World Service will be transferred to the BBC under its licence fee arrangements—a development welcomed by the BBC Trust. I emphasise, however, that the Foreign Secretary’s oversight role will remain and that he will continue to be involved in the setting of priorities. His authority will still be required to open or close any foreign language service.

On 26 January this year, the World Service announced plans for working within its new budget, and it had to take some difficult decisions. Among the announcements made was the one about the cessation of the shortwave broadcasts in a number of languages, including Hindi. As my hon. Friend said, the Hindi service has a long and honourable history, having been established as far back as 1940. Many millions of people have grown up listening to its broadcasts, and its popularity has certainly been shown by the number of representations that we and the BBC have received and by the passion with which they were made. My hon. Friend cited a number of those representations in his remarks.

According to the World Service, the shortwave audience in India has been falling for some time. In 2007 there were 19.1 million listeners, but by 2010 the number had fallen to about 11 million. That is still a large audience, but it represents a reach of just over 1% of the population, although—as my hon. Friend made clear—the areas covered by the shortwave broadcasts include some of the very poorest parts of India. There is only a small audience for shortwave in any of the urban areas, and the service was broadcasting for only three hours a day.

Last week the director of the World Service told the Foreign Affairs Committee that it had intended to close the shortwave service eventually and concentrate its efforts on the rapidly growing parts of the Hindi media market: online, mobile and television. Its broadcasts on FM would not be affected. The Hindi service has a network of FM partners throughout India whom it supplies with programmes, but—as my hon. Friend said—because of the regulatory framework in India, those services cannot supply hard news programming.

We are aware that the Hindi service was approached with proposals for alternative funding models for the shortwave broadcasts, but needed time to explore whether those possibilities were practicable. In discussions between officials, we made it clear that any decision would have to be made by the BBC World Service within its budget allocation. However, we supported the approach by the Hindi service to continue its shortwave broadcasts.

I am pleased that the BBC World Service has been able to find extra funds in its budget to support the Hindi shortwave service for another year and give it time to establish whether any of the alternative funding proposals are viable. The Hindi service will continue to broadcast on shortwave, albeit for only one hour a day rather than three. The World Service has decided to reprioritise £170,000 of its transmission budget for that purpose. I believe that that is a sensible response not only to legitimate concerns, but to the pressure to explore viable alternatives to continue the Hindi service not just for one year but for much longer, on a sustainable basis.

My hon. Friend spoke of the continuing priority given by the Department for International Development to helping the poorest communities in India. I know that a number of questions have been asked in the House about why that Department could not fund the Hindi service or cover the shortfall in the World Service’s overall budget. Under the broadcasting agreement between the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the BBC, funding for the World Service should come from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office rather than the Department for International Development. Members will have seen the announcement in which, on 1 March, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development clearly set out his priorities for the next few years. They did not include core funding for the BBC World Service, as it did not fulfil the criteria that he had identified.

That said, some World Service activity may count as official overseas development assistance. We are discussing with DFID and the OECD how BBC World Service expenditure may be reported as official development assistance. I understand that the World Service is discussing funding for specific projects with DFID, which already supports the BBC World Service Trust, the charitable arm of the World Service. The Government remain committed to an enhanced partnership with India.

[Mr Thomas]

Has the Minister had discussions with his counterparts at DFID to establish whether they might provide funds either to extend the one-hour service that has been saved or, in the longer term, to keep the shortwave service going beyond 2014?

[Mr Lidington]

There have been discussions at official level about the BBC decision to discontinue the Hindi service and about the pressure from the Hindi service for there to be a stay of execution while it explored other funding models. As far as I am aware, discussions between the Foreign Office and DFID about whether World Service expenditure can be classified as overseas official development assistance have been held largely at official level, although clearly if there were to be a major policy shift in this area the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), who is the Minister responsible for the World Service within the FCO, would be directly involved with his DFID counterparts.

[Mr Thomas]

With due respect, surely the Minister knows whether or not there have been ministerial discussions, and given the strength of concern in the House, surely a Minister from the Foreign Office could talk to DFID colleagues, or, potentially, to those who run the BBC World Service, to get some clarity about possibly at least extending the one-hour service back to the three-hour service.

[Mr Lidington]

The discussions that have taken place so far have been at official level about the decision the BBC took on the Hindi service earlier this year. The point I made a few moments ago is on a bigger issue: the extent to which expenditure on the World Service could qualify as official development assistance, and whether there were any problems in respect of the International Development Act 2002, which has to govern DFID’s expenditure. It is sensible that those conversations should initially take place at official level before advice is put up to Ministers, taking account not only of the views of the people in the two Departments, but also, as I mentioned, the opinions of the OECD, which has an authority in defining those areas of expenditure which count for ODA purposes and those that fall outside that definition.

There has been significant progress on building the bilateral relationship with India since the Prime Minister’s visit in July 2010, with increased co-operation across the full scope of activities in areas such as the economy, defence, counter-terrorism, climate change, science and innovation, and education. The presence of the World Service is one of many important elements in our ties with India, and we hope a solution can be found to the problems in respect of the Hindi service that demonstrates this value. Clearly, the World Service cannot be immune from public spending constraints or the need from time to time to reassess its priorities in the light of changing technologies and audience patterns.

European External Action Service

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Wednesday 14th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

I know that my hon. Friend has adopted a position that is profoundly sceptical not only of the EEAS but of Britain’s membership of the European Union and of the EU as a whole, but I must tell him that the key difference between then and now is that the treaty of Lisbon has been ratified by all 27 member states of the EU, and it is therefore now in force as a matter of both European and domestic law. As our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear at the time when ratification was completed, that alters the terms of trade, and we as a party agreed while still in opposition that if we formed a Government we would work within that new basis established by the Lisbon treaty.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I too am a huge respecter of British ambassadors, but the last thing I would want them to do is design development programmes, which was at one stage the suggestion for the role of the EEAS. Negotiations shifted that position, but can the Minister give the House any further information now as to whether there is clarity yet about who will have responsibility for the programming of development spending?

[Mr Lidington]

Yes. In the division of duties set out in the decision we are debating this evening, the EEAS and the High Representative will have responsibility for strategic decisions about the priorities of the EU’s development programme, but the Development Commissioner and his team within the Commission will remain responsible for the design and implementation of particular development programmes.

For this to work effectively, there clearly needs to be a meeting of minds between the High Representative and the Development Commissioner. Certainly when I have discussed this matter both with Baroness Ashton and with the Development Commissioner—whom I met in Brussels last week—they were both very confident that the package that has been agreed provided for a sensible division of responsibility, and also that the transfer to the EEAS of a number of staff working in the Commission on development would give the EEAS the expertise in development policy to enable it to take those strategic decisions.

I have to say to the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas), however, that this is one area where the British Government continue to have reservations about the final package. We would have preferred a slightly larger shift of people with development expertise into the EEAS to make certain that it had the required expertise, but the two people most directly responsible for implementing this policy seem to be satisfied with the measure in its current form.