Oral Answers to Questions
Gareth Thomas Excerpts(9 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Lidington
We believe that it is in the interests of every family in the United Kingdom that this successful trade deal is concluded as soon as possible. Priority areas for us include the automotive industry, financial services, procurement, agriculture, and food and drink. There are tremendous opportunities for British business through a successful TTIP negotiation.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
Would it not be sensible for the Minister to ensure that his boss is properly briefed on the benefits to Britain of a successful EU-US trade deal, perhaps before the Foreign Secretary is next tempted to go on the airwaves and talk up the possibility of a British exit from the European Union?
Mr Lidington
The entire Government, since we came into office in May 2010, have made it a priority to increase the prosperity of the whole of Europe, including the United Kingdom, through a commitment to free trade—a priority that was sadly neglected under the Government in whom the hon. Gentleman served.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gareth Thomas Excerpts(9 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That economic partnership is flourishing, as the Prime Minister’s visit to China in December showed. There are record levels of bilateral trade and investment, and UK exports to China were up 15% last year. China also invested more than £8 billion in the UK last year. Jaguar Land Rover is particularly to be congratulated on its fantastic export performance.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
Mr Speaker, as you know, the next British European Commissioner will have to face scrutiny from the European Parliament before the nomination can be confirmed. Would it not be more appropriate for the British people to scrutinise that appointment first, through this House?
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
I am sure that whenever the Prime Minister puts forward the name of the man or woman whom the Government wish to fill that role, there will be ample opportunity for Members of this House to express their various views.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gareth Thomas Excerpts(10 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Lidington
The ban on the obscene practice of discarding and the shift of fisheries management back to local and regional level is a real achievement for United Kingdom MEPs working with colleagues from other countries and with the European Commissioner concerned. It is disappointing if some UK MEPs felt that there were more important calls on their time than to defend British fishing interests in the way that our MEPs did.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Prime Minister promised us all that EU treaty change would happen by 2017 and that a major repatriation of powers would follow. Given that the French, the Germans and the Italians now, have all confirmed that this is not their priority, could that be why the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) thinks that the Prime Minister has made such a mess of winning back powers from the European Union?
Oral Answers to Questions
Gareth Thomas Excerpts(10 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
Given Chancellor Merkel’s confirmation that she does not support a fundamental reform of the European Union’s architecture, will the Minister for Europe update the House on when we may expect some clarity from the Prime Minister about what powers he wants repatriated to the UK?
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
I was heartened by Chancellor Merkel’s strong words about her determination to work with the Prime Minister to secure a European Union that is significantly more competitive, more democratic and more flexible than it is today. I wish that, instead of carping all the time, the hon. Gentleman would join us in that great project of reform.
Iran (Joint Plan of Action)
Gareth Thomas Excerpts(10 years, 2 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Williams. I congratulate the hon. Member for Hendon (Dr Offord), my north London near neighbour, on securing the debate, which has been a useful opportunity to assess recent events in Iran including, among other important issues, the joint plan of action. He rightly said that the joint plan of action does not resolve international suspicions about Iran’s intentions and merely suspends some of those suspicions for some people. He is right to continue to be concerned about Iran’s sponsorship of terrorism and other harmful activity in the region. He, along with the hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), rightly underlines that the sense of threat from Iran is still felt particularly acutely in Israel.
As in previous debates on Iran, we have had a good range of contributions from hon. Members offering differing but strongly held views. The speech of the hon. Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace) was interesting in highlighting some of the history of the relationship between the west and Iran. He noted some of the complexities and the need for nuance in our debates on future relations with Iran.
Such a range of views and the need for nuance is perhaps reflected in the region itself. I am struck that there is clearly an intense debate on the joint plan of action in Israel. In that context, it is worth noting the comments made yesterday by the Israeli Labour party leader Isaac Herzog, who challenged some of the comments by Israel’s Prime Minister, Mr Netanyahu, on the Iranian nuclear deal:
“This is an interim agreement; it isn’t Judgement Day…yet.”
He suggested in a slightly more partisan tone that Mr Netanyahu was encouraging a sense of panic on the joint plan of action that is not necessarily helpful.
The hon. Member for Hendon, in response to an intervention, alluded to Iran’s role in Syria and elsewhere in the region. Perhaps inevitably, it is always a critical time in the middle east, but it feels particularly so at the moment. Iran clearly plays an important role, and its activities in the region have implications for the wider relationship between Iran and the west. The international community, including the UK Government, must continue to do all it can to encourage all the parties in Syria to end the fighting and, in that context, to persuade Iran to influence the Assad regime at every opportunity to cease the use of violence against its own people.
Similarly, Iran’s dismal human rights record has rightly been raised by a couple of hon. Members. There are serious ongoing concerns. If the new regime in Iran takes steps to improve the country’s human rights record, it would send a strong signal on the importance that the Iranian Government attach to co-operation and engagement with the international community. Although President Rouhani has not openly expressed anti-gay rhetoric, unlike his predecessor, Iran’s Islamic penal code still lists homosexuality as an offence punishable by death.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) rightly highlighted concerns about the attitude to other religions and ethnic minorities. It is far from clear, according to Iran’s Nobel laureate Shirin Ebadi, that political prisoners are being released in the way that the regime has previously claimed.
There has long been recognition in the House and across the international community that we need to grasp the serious opportunities that occasionally come along—they are certainly presenting themselves to us now—to improve relations between Iran and the UK and the west in general. The hon. Member for Wyre and Preston North highlighted a number of the missed opportunities to do just that. President Rouhani is offering the prospect of seriously improving the relationship between the UK and Iran. In recent months, his Administration’s new approach to negotiations suggests that we should be open to continuing serious engagement with his regime. I pay tribute to the EU’s High Representative, Cathy Ashton, not only for her role in the negotiations but for her willingness to continue to follow through on the prospects for better engagement.
On ensuring that Iran’s nuclear programme is and remains peaceful, Members will be aware that the first step agreement with Iran commenced on 20 January and continues to be implemented. We are between talks and the E3 plus 3 are meeting again in March for the next round. We should be encouraged that the previous talks were of a constructive nature.
The hon. Member for Hendon rightly raised concerns about Iran’s attitude to, for example, the critical issue of centrifuges. There has been concern that Iran has installed new centrifuges. As the shadow Foreign Secretary expressed in his response to the Foreign Secretary’s statement on Monday, there is concern that Iran is still operating more than 10,000 centrifuges when the interim deal set out a much lower target. What is the Minister’s view on that? There has also been concern about the Arak heavy water research centre. As he has previously said, under the joint plan of action Iran is supposed to fully resolve concerns about that reactor and confirm that no reprocessing will take place there. What is his view on progress in that area?
The deal that has been agreed is a necessary step precisely because Iran has developed an enrichment programme over recent years, despite calls by the international community to stop. That is why the existing substantial sanctions must be enforced and why the comprehensive solution must address all the proliferation concerns on Iran’s nuclear programme. Does the Minister believe that the IAEA has the necessary resources to be responsible for the verification of the nuclear-related measures to which Iran has committed? Will he explain more about the monitoring and validating processes that the IAEA will go through? Maintaining confidence in those processes will be important in helping address the suspicion about the Iranians’ activities. In that way, the necessary trust can be built to achieve the comprehensive solution that will ultimately be in everyone’s interest.
Will the Minister set out what the role of the joint commission of the E3 plus 3 and Iran will be? What stage are we at in the development of the joint commission? Will he set out, as the shadow Foreign Secretary asked the Foreign Secretary to do on Monday, the impact that the sanctions relief has had so far on the Iranian economy? Will the Minister set out the most recent estimate of the benefits that the limited sanctions relief has so far brought to the Iranian economy? Similarly, what impact has the limited sanctions relief had on Iran’s petrochemical exports and the imports of goods and services for its automotive manufacturing sector?
Finally, on a related but nevertheless separate issue, the UK and Iran brought protecting power arrangements to an end last week, which is an encouraging sign of increasing confidence that bilateral business can be conducted directly between capitals, rather than through intermediaries. Iran’s non-resident chargé d’affaires visited the UK this week. Can the Minister provide at least some update on the progress in those discussions? All of us wish the Government and the E3 plus 3 well in seeking to deliver on the comprehensive solution. I hope the Minister will continue to provide regular updates to the House to offer assurance on the progress of negotiations.
Commission Work Programme 2014
Gareth Thomas Excerpts(10 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
I welcome the opportunity to discuss the European Commission’s work programme for 2014. I thank the European Scrutiny Committee for its useful report. The Committee suggested that a debate before Christmas would be timely, and given the thinness of the Government’s agenda for this House, it is surprising that this debate has not taken place earlier.
The work programme published on 22 October is shorter than usual, not least because European Parliament elections are coming up in May and because the new college of commissioners will take office later this year. Our ability to influence the work programme’s direction to achieve UK objectives and protect our national interest depends in no small part on having good relationships with our allies in Europe. Yet, instead of defending our interests in Europe, the Prime Minister all too often puts party before country, opting for policy positions and language that appease Eurosceptic Back Benchers and alienate allies in Europe.
The result is that the Prime Minister finds himself in an increasingly isolated position in Europe. Indeed, the Prime Minister has been attracting an increasing number of openly hostile comments from crucial European allies. Germany, Poland, France and Bulgaria are our allies in Europe, and yet senior figures in their Governments—most recently the German Foreign Minister, Mr Steinmeier—have given briefings on their profound disagreement with our Prime Minister’s views. The political weight of the people in those countries who have made their disagreement with the Prime Minister known and the tone in which they have done so are concerning. Once again, the Conservative party is pushing Britain into the isolated corner that John Major’s Government left us in.
The Prime Minister has promised to renegotiate the terms of Britain’s membership of the European Union. He said that treaty change will deliver important opportunities to repatriate a series of powers that are apparently held by the EU and which he thinks ought to be back with the United Kingdom. Having looked at the work programme, I confess that I cannot see a major treaty change in preparation. It is far from clear that the treaty change on which the Conservative party is banking is likely to happen soon. If the Minister were to be honest with the House about that, I suspect that he would say that he is starting to realise that the game is up. The Chancellor’s recent plaintive call for treaty change in the context of banking union gave the impression that he knows that the possibility of such treaty change is retreating. Even if we assume that treaty change will happen, we still have absolutely no idea which powers the Conservative party wants to repatriate. The Minister has once again failed to tell us today.
The work programme priorities for 2014—economic and monetary union; smart, sustainable and inclusive growth; justice and security; and external action—are critical to the UK. In particular, a strong and stable economy in Europe is crucial to British jobs, security and prosperity. As the UK continues to battle through the Government’s cost of living crisis, with falling wages, rising prices and stagnating growth, our continued membership of and active engagement in the European Union are crucial to Britain’s economic prosperity. Almost half the UK’s trade and foreign investments come from the European Union. More than 3.5 million jobs in the UK depend on our membership of the EU.
Mr Thomas
The information that I gave was confirmed as recently as 2011 in a written parliamentary answer from the Foreign Secretary. Who am I not to believe the Foreign Secretary on a matter of such importance? If the Foreign Secretary’s view is not good enough for the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee, perhaps I could point him towards recent research by the CBI, which estimates that our membership of the EU is worth between £62 billion and £78 billion, which equates to about 4% to 5% of the country’s total economic output or about £3,000 per UK household per year.
Mr Thomas
I will give way in a moment.
In short, the Prime Minister is willing to take the risk of a £3,000 hit to the living standards of UK households from a British exit from the European Union in order to try to paper over the divisions in his party.
I give way to the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps he will tell us whether he was one of the 95 who signed the recent letter.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I was proud to be one of the 95. I might mention that if I catch your eye later, Madam Deputy Speaker.
The hon. Gentleman has quoted a figure for the contribution to the economy of our membership of the European Union. What is the counterbalance to that figure? What do we pay through extra regulation and our subscription to the European Union, and does that leave us with a credit or a debit?
Martin Horwood
Is it not part of the CBI’s rationale that to have access to the single market even countries outside the European Union need to pay a significant amount, as Norway does? Countries do not escape the cost, even if they leave the European Union.
Mr Thomas
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right and perhaps I should have been more enthusiastic about his intervention. It is not just Norway that has a problem. A number of countries find themselves outside the EU with very little influence on what EU regulations are approved, and they often still have to accept 75% to 90% of them
Mr Carswell
I always regard the hon. Gentleman as my friend. Does he not agree that Norway does two and a half times more trade per capita with the EU from outside than we do from within, and that Switzerland does four and a half times more trade per capita from outside the EU than we manage from within? It is, therefore, perfectly possible to trade more freely with Europe from outside the EU than it is from within.
Mr Thomas
It is interesting that a series of Norwegian politicians have confirmed their lack of influence over EU regulation, and have pointedly suggested that we do not go down the route—I know the hon. Gentleman is an enthusiastic supporter of this route—of denying ourselves the opportunity to have influence over the detail of the single market.
Wayne David
My hon. Friend paints a pessimistic picture of the Conservative party becoming increasingly Eurosceptic, but does he take heart from the strong rumour going around Brussels that the Conservative party might be reconsidering its decision to leave the European People’s party group and might apply to join it once again?
Mr Thomas
It is not for me to comment on the Conservative party’s membership, or not, of the EPP. We will no doubt hear more if there is any truth in the rumour.
The Commission’s work programme quite rightly cites deepening the single market as a key priority. It is the biggest such market in the world: a consumer market of 500 million people that generates £11 trillion in economic activity. It remains a deep concern of many in business that the Conservative party is willing to put at risk Britain’s membership of such a huge market for British goods and services. The Prime Minister also appears to be willing to risk our participation in bilateral free trade agreements, not least the hugely important potential EU-US trade agreement.
We on this side of the House recognise that to help Britain compete in the global market and uphold British living standards, the UK needs to advance, together with others in Europe, a reform agenda that promotes economic growth across the EU and, as a result, helps to tackle unemployment, particularly youth unemployment. That includes, as the work programme sets out, the need to extend and complete the single market—I agree with the Minister’s comments on the digital market—so that British companies can benefit from the opportunities of trade with our nearest allies. The operation of the single market in existing sectors must be protected in the face of potential closer integration between eurozone states.
The work programme outlines the continuing work of the Commission on economic governance and the banking union. Clearly, the stability of the eurozone, and sorting out the problems faced by banks in eurozone countries, is not just of great importance to countries in the single currency—it has a significant impact on the UK, too. Why it takes the European Union to clamp down on bankers’ bonuses, when the Government should be doing it, is a question we are still waiting to get a sensible answer on from Ministers. In this country, we still need real reform of competition in our banking sector to help small businesses get the support they need to grow, employ more people at decent wages and help Britain earn its way to better living standards.
Another important theme of the work programme is European co-operation on justice and security. The Commission is currently negotiating with the UK on the justice and security measures that we can opt back into. Our police and security forces are rightly working ever closer with their counterparts across Europe, co-operating on issues such as international terrorism, organised crime and human trafficking. For example, we would not have seen the arrest of one of the terrorists responsible for the 7/7 attacks in London without help from our European colleagues. More than 4,000 suspected criminals have been sent back to other EU countries to face justice, more than 90% of whom were foreign citizens, and while not perfect, the European arrest warrant has helped to tackle the so-called Costa del Crime, with 49 of the 65 top UK fugitives hiding in southern Spain having been returned to face justice. In short, we depend on our European partners for intelligence and operational support in order to protect the British public and the freedoms they enjoy. To ensure that those goals continue to be realised, the Opposition want to see the EU’s collective effectiveness further improved.
As I mentioned, the Government have triggered the justice and home affairs opt-out. Indeed, the Home Secretary and the Justice Secretary told the House that the block opt-out was first and foremost about bringing powers back home, yet the European Scrutiny Committee, chaired by the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), having reviewed the significance of the justice and home affairs opt-out, said,
“we see little evidence of a genuine and significant repatriation of powers.”
Whom should the House believe when making that judgment—our European Scrutiny Committee or the Home Secretary?
Mr Clappison
Will the hon. Gentleman remind us who negotiated the opportunity for a block opt-out?
Mr Thomas
It was one of a series of sensible reforms that the Labour party negotiated when in power. It was right that we had that judgment to make. It is clear from the work of the European Scrutiny Committee, however, that the list of measures the Government want to opt back into will not deliver what the Home Secretary and Justice Secretary claim it will—a significant repatriation of powers—or at least that appears to be the case, on the basis of the Committee’s conclusions.
It might help the House to reach our own judgment were the Government to update us on the negotiations with the European Commission on the measures they want to opt back into. For example, can the Minister reassure the House that the European arrest warrant will not be put at risk this year? If Ministers’ rhetoric is taken at face value, there remains a threat to continued British participation in European co-operation on cross-border police investigations, while UK involvement in criminal record sharing, work on trafficking and online child pornography, as well as deportation arrangements for suspected criminals, are all at risk too as a result of the opt-out. Such measures provide a vital legal process to prevent people from fleeing justice and to ensure that those responsible for crimes are held accountable.
Finally, on the tobacco products directive, the House might recall that Labour MEPs voted in favour of a range of proposals aimed at protecting children from being targeted by tobacco companies, including graphic warnings on packaging, the banning of chocolate and strawberry-flavoured cigarettes and a future ban on menthol cigarettes. Ignoring warnings from Cancer Research UK, the British Heart Foundation and even the advice of their own Health Secretary, Conservative MEPs voted to weaken cigarette warnings, for weaker regulation of electronic cigarettes and to delay the ban on menthols, and blocked a ban on slim cigarettes, which I understand are particularly targeted at young women. Will the Minister tell us how those negotiations are progressing?
In general terms, the Opposition support the work programme, but 2014 will be remembered less for this programme and more, I suspect, for how the Prime Minister’s continued weakness in front of right-wing Back Benchers threatened our influence across the European Union.
Oral Answers to Questions
Gareth Thomas Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Hague
As I said earlier, I think reforming the concept of free movement on a sensible basis is the right way to think about that. Freedom of movement of workers in the European Union clearly has many benefits, including for British people, but we also know that it is susceptible to being abused. I therefore think the reforms set out last week by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister are the right way to proceed.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
As the Foreign Secretary reflects on the answers he has just given, he will be mindful, I am sure, of the European Scrutiny Committee’s conclusion on the justice and home affairs block opt-out that,
“there is little evidence of a genuine and significant repatriation of powers.”
Should the House believe the European Scrutiny Committee or not?
Mr Hague
As I reflect on the answers I have just given, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall consider them to have been very good answers. European Scrutiny Committee reports should always be taken extremely seriously. The Committee looks at issues in great detail, the Government respond to them in detail and many are debated in this House.
European Union (Referendum) Bill
Gareth Thomas Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mike Gapes
I do not expect the House to vote on all my amendments. There are some amendments that I will not press to a vote and amendment 16 is one of them. I will therefore conclude my remarks on that amendment.
Finally, amendment 61 is important. It touches on the issues of publicity, newspapers, media and different languages that we have already debated. We live in a United Kingdom that has devolved Administrations in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. It is important that there is consultation with all parts of the UK and agreement over the conduct of the referendum. I therefore hope that amendment 61 is not controversial and will not be opposed by the Government.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend has not commented on the amendments that have been tabled by those on his Front Bench, which recommend an audit of the arrangements for the referendum by the Electoral Commission once it has taken place and, crucially, that the people of Gibraltar should have their votes declared separately and, as a result, clearly so that we can see how Gibraltarians have voted. I would welcome his assurance that he is sympathetic to the merit of those two amendments.
Mike Gapes
Of course I am sympathetic to those amendments. I have not commented on them because they have not been introduced by the Member who tabled them. I thought that it would be better to listen and to intervene at a later stage, if necessary.
I am happy to conclude by commending all my amendments to the House. I look forward to the consideration of the amendments that have been tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) and by other hon. Members.
Mr Lidington
No, I am going to make progress.
Amendments 5 to 7 and 84 propose arrangements for the referendum that would either duplicate or complicate arrangements that are set out clearly in existing primary legislation, namely the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.
Amendments 16, 64 and 65—
Mr Lidington
No.
Amendments 16, 64 and 65 propose detailed rules on the conduct of the referendum.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
The hon. Gentleman has made his point. He knows that it is not a point on which I should rule from the Chair. The Minister has been speaking for only a minute or two. He is in the opening stages of his speech and I am sure that he will take interventions when it becomes appropriate.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is well aware that he must stick specifically to the question in hand. The question proposed by the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) was one that requires only a short answer, and the hon. Gentleman may then resume his consideration of the amendments.
Mr Thomas
My hon. Friend has said that he will reference the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), but may I ask him to comment briefly on the two amendments that I have tabled from the Front Bench? One stipulates that the results of any referendum in Gibraltar should be declared separately so that we can see how Gibraltarians voted and the second talks of the crucial need for an audit of the arrangements for the referendum, which the Electoral Commission might set out.
Chris Williamson
Indeed I was going to refer to those amendments. Suffice it to say that they are sensible. We need to learn lessons from a referendum, and it would be helpful to have that report.
On the earlier point, briefly, £50 is sufficiently high enough to create an incentive and to concentrate people’s minds. If it were any less than that, they might not bother to vote. If it were higher than that, it would be unreasonable. I must say I did pluck the figure out of the sky, but I thought that £50 was reasonable.
Martin Horwood
No, I will not, I am afraid. We need to make progress on this Bill today.
Mr Thomas
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman and understand his appetite to move on. I hope that when he reaches the other amendments he might be willing to comment on the two that I have tabled. The first suggests that there should be a separate but linked declaration of the result in Gibraltar, and I hope he might be tempted to support that. I would also welcome his views on amendment 84, which suggests a post-referendum audit.
Martin Horwood
I am certainly more sympathetic to those amendments. The idea of an audit is, I think, a little superfluous. I am not sure that it is a bad idea, but I am also not sure that we need it in the Bill. We could leave it to the Electoral Commission’s good judgment.
Amendment 64 is more serious. We debated the subject at some length when we discussed the Conservative amendments on our first day on Report. There is a question about Gibraltar that has not been resolved by enabling Gibraltarians to vote in the referendum, which has now been incorporated into the Bill, because we still have the problem that Gibraltar is only a member of the European Union by virtue of its status as a British territory. If the UK and Gibraltar vote yes, we will have no problem. If the UK and Gibraltar vote no, it would be a catastrophe for jobs, the fighting of crime, the environment and so on, but it would not be a problem for Gibraltar’s constitutional position.
We have problems, however—I have not yet heard Ministers respond to them satisfactorily to defend the Bill—with what will happen if Gibraltar and the UK vote in different ways. If the UK votes to remain in the EU but Gibraltar votes no, I would assume that that would be taken as an indication of Gibraltar’s desire to leave the EU. Would we then accommodate that desire? Would we, for instance, pursue the Greenland option, where one territory from within a realm leaves the European Union? It would be interesting to hear what Ministers have to say in reply to that. If the reverse happens, and Gibraltar votes yes and the UK votes no, would we really proceed in effect to expel Gibraltar from the European Union against the clearly expressed wishes of the Gibraltarian people? What message would that send to Spain about our desire to respect the will of the people of Gibraltar in determining their own future? It would be good to hear the Minister’s replies on those two scenarios.
Let me conclude by talking about my amendment 65, which suggests the separate declaration that I think would be appropriate for any country that has voted to leave the UK, has formed an independent country or is in the process of negotiating such independence or holding a referendum on it. It is pretty clear which country I am talking about and I have obtained from the Library a copy of a document called “Scotland’s Future”, which was published in the past few days and contains some interesting aspirations, including for Scotland to remain a member of the European Union and to achieve independence, if it is voted for in autumn 2014, by 24 March 2016.
I am no expert on the Scottish independence debate and I do not know whether either of those aspirations is guaranteed—I suspect that neither of them is—but it raises the important question of what will happen if the Scottish people vote yes to independence and no to Europe. Will the Scottish Government pursue membership of the European Union even though their people have voted the other way? It will be equally bizarre if England votes no or yes by a narrow margin but Scotland tips the balance the other way despite having already voted to leave the United Kingdom. What would be the constitutional situation for England, Wales and Northern Ireland then? If Scotland votes yes to independence and to EU membership but the UK as a whole votes to leave the European Union, we will then have the bizarre situation of Scotland negotiating entry while the Government of the UK simultaneously negotiates exit. That is one of those timetabling issues that shows what an arbitrary and ill thought out notion it is to have a fixed deadline that cannot take account of changing political and constitutional realities, whether on the European scale, in relation to Scotland or in the United Kingdom.
Martin Horwood
I will not give way, because I have given way to the hon. Gentleman already and I think the Bill needs to make progress.
I will not press the amendment to a vote and I will not move it, but it raises important issues and I would like to hear the Minister’s response to them.
Mr Thomas
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friends the Members for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), for Derby North (Chris Williamson), for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) and for Caerphilly (Wayne David). It was a pleasure to listen to the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood). It was somewhat surprising that the Minister was short in his comments; he certainly was not sweet in his comments. One noticeable feature of his contributions on Report has been the increasing fear he seems to be displaying of taking interventions, particularly from those on the Front Bench but also from Back Benchers.
Jim Fitzpatrick
Does my hon. Friend agree that that is doubly disappointing, given how much respect and high regard the Minister is held in?
Mr Thomas
My hon. Friend has made his point, and he is accurate.
I wish to speak to amendments 84 and 64 in my name. I may want to press amendment 64 to a Division.
First, let me address speedily the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South. Although referendums are—in this country, at least—unusual, there have been several in recent years, and a noticeably higher number under Labour Governments. Not for us the dismissive attitude to some of the British people of Conservatives such as Boris Johnson—we instinctively trust the British people. Under Labour we had the 1975 European Communities membership referendum. We have had the various Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish devolution referendums, and the referendum that proposed a devolution of powers to London—the Greater London authority referendum in 2000. We have also seen a number of referendums on directly elected mayors. There is a considerable amount of experience to draw on in getting any future referendums right.
Referendums are substantial undertakings. Their administration is a sizeable cost to the state. There is also substantial inconvenience to the public; schools get closed for the day. Rightly, therefore, great emphasis is placed on getting the conduct of the referendum right. We do not want to waste precious resources or the time of those involved. We need to ensure that the result is legitimate, valid and fair. With that in mind, a proper plan for the arrangement of the referendum is sensible. Clause 3(1) is helpful in that regard, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South pointed out, the absence of a timetable or deadline for the publication of the Electoral Commission’s report is problematic.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend agree that the single piece of legislation on Europe that centred powers in Brussels and led to the open market and the flood of immigrants that we have today was the Single European Act, which Mrs Thatcher signed and did not put to a referendum in this country?
Mr Thomas
My hon. Friend is right. The Conservative party has taken through this House and the other place a number of major pieces of legislation on Europe on which it has not wanted a referendum. One can only conclude that Conservative leaders in the past were more willing to stand up to their Back Benchers than the current Prime Minister is.
Let me discuss the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South. Amendments 52 to 55 relate to the report that the Electoral Commission would publish under clause 3. As other hon. Members have said, the Electoral Commission’s recent report on the Bill, published last month, provided us with invaluable advice on the potential wording of a referendum question, and the consequential difficulties that the poorly worded question that the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) is proposing could cause. I do not want to dwell on that particular Electoral Commission report, but it is clear that further advice in the form of a report from the commission would be invaluable should a referendum go ahead.
The important reference back to the previous Electoral Commission report is that it had only almost four months to complete its work on what the question should be. It made it clear then that it was not long enough for it to offer the House of Commons a definitive view on the wording of the question, so the clear lesson that we need to draw in the context of this grouping of amendments is that it must be given longer to do its work. Amendment 55, implying a minimum six months being needed for the Electoral Commission to do its work, is clearly sensible. It would have been useful to hear a little more of the Minister’s thoughts on that particular amendment.
There is also the obvious point that such a report needs to be delivered in time for the advice in it to be given due consideration by the Secretary of State, and crucially by Members on both sides of the House. Therefore, I can see the case that my hon. Friend makes, in particular for amendment 55. We know that the Conservative party is divided on the timetable for this legislation. We had the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie). Some want the referendum next year, others want—[Interruption.]
Mr Kevan Jones
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Fridays are for private Members’ business, and that is what we are dealing with today. Is it in order for the Government deputy Chief Whip to be orchestrating the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) in what he should be doing?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
The hon. Gentleman appreciates that the Chair has power over many things and many people, but the Government deputy Chief Whip is not one of them.
Mr Thomas
As I was saying, following the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Windsor, we know that the Conservative party is deeply divided on the timetable for any referendum. Some want it next year, others want 2017, and Foreign Office Ministers are not sure when they want it. Therefore, I understand why my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South suggests different dates by which the Electoral Commission should report on the rules.
Amendment 6, tabled by my hon. Friend, refers to the broadcasting rights of the proponents and opponents during the election campaign. There is a clear British tradition of party political and referendum campaign broadcasts, and I understand that that is relatively unusual in comparative terms. This is in part because political advertising in broadcast media is prohibited in the UK. Indeed, the ban was the subject of a recent European Court of Human Rights case, which upheld the UK position. I understand that Ofcom is tasked with drawing up the rules regarding the allocation, length and frequency of referendum campaign broadcasts for commercial broadcasters with public service obligations. I acknowledge that the amendment takes particular care to highlight the importance of Welsh language broadcasts.
The amendment seeks to place on the face of the Bill clear provisions for a minimum of six broadcasts, with the possibility of 10 broadcasts, of 60 minutes in length. I am not sure why my hon. Friend has settled on 10. If he gets the chance to wind up the debate, perhaps he will say why. Is it, perhaps, because of who he thinks might want to appear in the 10 broadcasts? After all, no one is quite sure where the Foreign Secretary stands on Europe. This is the man who famously, while wearing a baseball cap, said that there were only 12 days to save the pound. He was wrong, but notwithstanding that flurry of Euroscepticism, some Conservative Members believe that he is part of the problem on Europe. Clearly, if the Foreign Secretary appeared in one of the broadcasts for either side, a less divisive figure would be needed to appear in the next broadcast. Perhaps the difficulties that the anti-EU campaign might face if there were not enough broadcasts are a further reason why my hon. Friend has suggested 10 of them. Imagine if it put up one of UKIP’s MEPs—it might provoke scrutiny of their low work-rate in Brussels.
I think that at least one broadcast during the campaign ought to focus on how the ordinary, hard-working people of this country would be affected. We know from CBI research that every UK household stands to take a £3,000 hit to their living standards if the Prime Minister’s reckless gamble to keep his party together results in a British exit from the European Union.
Why else might we need 10 broadcasts? Is it possible that the Prime Minister might want to feature in one? Perhaps he might want to dwell on the powers and competences he has repatriated back to the UK due to the treaty change he thinks is coming. As we do not know what powers and competences he wants to repatriate, it is hard to judge how successful he might be and therefore whether such a broadcast, and resulting opposition broadcast, would be necessary. We have tried at length, as has the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), to elicit from the Minister for Europe what powers and competences the Prime Minister wants to repatriate as a result of the treaty change he thinks is coming, but there has been absolutely no clarity from the Minister at all.
Perhaps a further reason for my hon. Friend’s advocating 10 broadcasts is to give the last Conservative Prime Minister to win a majority, John Major, the chance to speak in a referendum campaign broadcast. Yesterday he said that Britain will pay a “severe price” if it votes to leave the European Union, and that an exit could cost billions and leave the UK isolated internationally yet still required to implement EU regulations it had no part in framing. I could see him being an excellent choice for one of the 10 broadcasts that my hon. Friend suggests. One wonders why the current Prime Minister wants to take such a risk for Britain if this is anything other than a desperate effort to keep his party united.
One could imagine that a further reason a limit of 10 broadcasts is needed is that UKIP would want one of the no campaign broadcasts to dwell on the unnecessary expense—some £100 million to £150 million a year—of the Strasbourg Parliament, that expensive and unnecessary extra European parliamentary body that the French like so much and that they bullied John Major’s Conservative Government into accepting as the price for staying out of the social chapter.
Perhaps we need so many broadcasts in order to focus on the issues, such as the economic case for staying in Europe and the folly of the idea that we should try to be like Switzerland or Norway. We would certainly need a broadcast to focus on the benefits that EU membership delivers for co-operation on crime and justice matters across Europe. If we want to tackle the mafia-like gangs that control illegal immigration, we need cross-border co-operation.
I can see the case, then, for some broadcasts, but I am not sure, if I am honest, that we need to be quite as specific as my hon. Friend proposes. I think we can trust the broadcasters and the Electoral Commission to get this right. However, he has raised an important issue, which, along with many other important elements of this Bill, has so far been ignored by the Conservatives as the red mist of Euroscepticism has descended.
Let me raise a few points about my amendment 64, which I may want to press to a Division. We have already discussed on Report and in Committee many of the unique aspects of Gibraltar’s position with regard to EU matters and the proposed referendum—thankfully so, as Conservative Members had singularly failed to consider the Gibraltarian people in this matter before the Bill emerged from Lynton Crosby’s office. In fact, Labour Members are becoming increasingly concerned that the Minister for Europe is being insufficiently robust with his Spanish counterparts over Gibraltar, but that debate is rightly for another time.
As the House will know, in ordinary European parliamentary elections the results of voting in Gibraltar are included in the south-west region of the UK. My amendment suggests a provision to allow a change from this norm whereby for referendums only the results are published separately, allowing it to be clear and beyond doubt how the Gibraltarian people have voted should such a referendum go ahead. I cannot, in all honesty, foresee a great added expense in such an arrangement. I gently suggest to Conservative Members that adding such a provision to the Bill might go some way towards making up to the Gibraltarian people for the rather—dare I say?—rude way in which they were treated in this proposed legislation at the outset. I would have welcomed the Minister’s comments on the amendment, but I do not think he touched on it at all.
Amendment 84 suggests a proper audit of the arrangements and conduct of any in/out referendum. The hon. Member for Cheltenham has said that we can always learn from what has gone before, and he is right. I gently suggest that the amendment is a sensible provision for the Minister to reflect on.
Mr Thomas
I am grateful.
We repeatedly tried, as did Conservative Back Benchers, to ask the Minister for Europe what powers and competences the Prime Minister wants to bring back as a result of the treaty change that he says is coming. We got no clarity from the Minister for Europe; will the Foreign Secretary provide it now?
Mr Hague
The Prime Minister’s programme was set out clearly in his speech of 23 January, and his agenda is getting increasing support across Europe. It is time that the Opposition adjusted to the reality of the future and started to support it, instead of saying that uncertainty is being created in the British economy. They have neglected to notice that UN figures show that in the first half of this year, the UK attracted more inward investment not only than any other European country but than any other country in the world. That is the situation over which we are presiding. Labour’s is the policy of uncertainty. Labour Members are not even certain when they can resolve the uncertainty about their own policy! They have been unable to tell us about their own position on a referendum. After the shadow Foreign Secretary spoke on Second Reading, no one was any the wiser about whether Labour was in favour of the Bill, against it or indifferent to it. We hope that the Opposition will catch up in the future, as they did with the European Union Act 2011, which they treated with the utmost apathy, but have since come to support as part of our constitutional framework.
It is right for the people to be given their say. It is right for a British Government to seek a new settlement in Europe. It is right for us to put that on the statute book now. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South has been outstanding in putting the Bill before us. It deserves our support on its Third Reading today.
European Union (Referendum) Bill
Gareth Thomas Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have evidence that the Foreign Secretary, possibly, and certainly the Minister for Europe, are not 100% committed to the 2017 date, and have already considered scenarios in which that supposed commitment could be scrapped.
Mr Lidington
I think the answer to the intervention is closely related to comments I want to make about the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), and by Opposition Members, which seeks to bring the date of the referendum forward from 2017, at the latest, to a date in 2014. In responding to those amendments, and accepting the good faith in which they were tabled—
Mr Thomas
I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon. He was hiding at the back. His question to the Minister for Europe two weeks ago was extremely pertinent. He asked when the Prime Minister—or perhaps the Minister—would reveal which powers and competences the Prime Minister wants to repatriate to the UK as a result of the treaty change that is coming. Two weeks ago the Minister would not answer his hon. Friend, so perhaps he will give us an answer today.
Mr Lidington
Oh dear, dear, Mr Speaker. Labour Members cannot think of something new today, so they just put on the old record and try to repeat it again. I am tempted simply to refer the hon. Gentleman to remarks I made last time we debated this Bill. I pointed out to him achievements that the Government already have to their credit in terms of significant reform of the European Union, from the first ever budget cut, to reform of the fisheries policy of a kind that Labour said it wanted during 13 years in office but was never capable of achieving.
Yet again, the hon. Gentleman has failed this morning to spell out whether his party and leader are prepared to commit themselves to giving the British people a final say over the terms of our membership of the European Union. [Hon. Members: “Give way!] I am giving the hon. Gentleman the answer I believe he deserves. He may believe that the right approach would be for the Government to spell out in 2013 precisely what terms Ministers in a future Conservative Government would hope to put to the European Union after the 2015 general election. I say only that if that is the sort of naive approach to negotiation he currently endorses, it shows why the Labour party so signally failed to achieve much while in office.
Let me return to the points I was addressing to my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor, and others who want to bring the referendum forward to 2014. First, I ask them to consider British circumstances in 2014. We will already have an important referendum on the future of Scotland in the UK. I believe it would be an unnecessary complication to that debate to have a European referendum as well next year. Secondly, I suggest to the House that we should bear in mind the European timetable. Next year there will be elections to the European Parliament and the appointment of a new European Commission. That period will entail a break from normal European business, during which it would simply not be possible to engage in the serious work of reform and renegotiation that so many people on both sides of the House and millions of our fellow citizens want to see.
The choice that the British people deserve is a choice between membership of the European Union on reformed and renegotiated terms or leaving. That is the right choice. I do not believe it would be possible to come to an informed view about that choice as early as next year. It is that understanding of the European context that has led the Government to propose a 2017 date.
Mr Thomas
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) and the contributions from my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain), my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain), and my hon. Friends the Members for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) and for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), and to have had the chance to listen to the contributions from the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) and more recently the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron).
I shall come to amendment 68, the lead amendment, in due course, but I begin with amendment 3 in the name of the hon. Member for Windsor. I pay tribute to him. Despite considerable pressure to present a façade of party unity, he has stuck to his guns and followed through on his determination to press for a referendum next year. I can immediately see three tempting reasons why the House might want to support the hon. Gentleman’s amendment. First, as the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay reminded us, the whole House knows that the Prime Minister and many in the Conservative party are obviously on different pages with regard to Europe. Amendment 3 therefore offers us the chance to underline once again just how divided the Conservative party is on that great European obsession of theirs.
The second tempting reason to support the amendment is that if one believed that the Prime Minister will not or cannot repatriate sufficient powers and competences from the European Union to Britain, which I think is the view of the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), through the treaty change that he believes is coming, and by the entirely arbitrary deadline that the Bill establishes, one might be tempted to think, “Well, let’s just crack on with a referendum next year.” The third tempting reason is that the pragmatist in all of us in the House today can recognise that the British and the European calendars are likely to be so busy in the run-up to the end of 2017 that the best time for a referendum might be next year.
Sir Edward Leigh
If Labour forms the next Government, will they give the British people a referendum?
Mr Thomas
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman attended the Second Reading debate. My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander), the shadow Foreign Secretary, clearly set out our position on the question of a referendum. Let me restate it for the benefit of the House. If there has been a significant transfer of powers to the European Union, of course we are committed to the principle of a referendum.
Indeed, that was the position of every one of the main parties in this House. The only party that has changed its position since is the Conservative party, and we all know that that is because the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and other Conservative Back Benchers have bullied the Prime Minister into bringing forward this commitment now.
Let me go into a little more detail on the three tempting reasons to support the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Windsor. All of us remember that the Bill and its 2017 end date is the Prime Minister’s best effort to bridge the chasm within the Conservative party on Europe. It is the product of the unprecedented Back-Bench rebellion against the Queen’s Speech earlier this year. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman and many of those who want to vote for his amendment either simply want to leave the EU or are quite frightened of UKIP. They know that the Prime Minister’s pledge is a stunt to keep them on board. Conservative councillors in the constituency of the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) certainly know it is a stunt. We have seen a three-line Whip, photos on College green, and Michael Green getting involved. It is just Lynton Crosby weaving away at the emperor’s new clothes so that the Prime Minister can put on the pretence of a united party.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does the shadow Minister not accept that there are divisions on this issue in his own party?
Mr Thomas
With the greatest respect, I do not accept that. Both sides of the House, if they are being honest, recognise that the Bill, in the words of one of the Conservative councillors in the constituency of the hon. Member for Stockton South, is nothing more than a cynical political stunt.
I wonder whether the hon. Member for Windsor really thinks that the 2017 referendum will actually happen. I think that the Foreign Secretary possibly, but the Minister for Europe certainly, has already contemplated circumstances in which the commitment could be overturned. Perhaps it was that very fear that led the hon. Gentleman, like me, to read the Committee stage reports. Pressed by the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) during the Committee’s second sitting on 3 September on the idea that negotiations might overrun the Bill’s 2017 timetable, the Minister for Europe began thus:
“I think that having a deadline in legislation usually focuses minds on the notion that negotiations cannot and should not be open-ended.”
That is a line that the Foreign Secretary would not be embarrassed by. It is a line of which Lynton Crosby would have approved.
So far, the Minister for Europe was sticking to the Conservative party line. But then the edifice began to crumble. He went on:
“Clearly, no Parliament can bind its successors”,
so why on earth do I have to be here on a Friday when I could be in Harrow helping my constituents if this is nothing more than a party political stunt? The Minister for Europe did not stop there, but went on:
“It is always open for new primary legislation to be introduced in a crisis”.––[Official Report, European Union (Referendum) Bill Public Bill Committee, 3 September 2013; c. 118.]
What we have there is the Minister for Europe quietly saying, “We might need to change this legislation”; quietly saying that the 2017 deadline is not an absolute after all; that legislation could be introduced to change it, or even, presumably, to scrap it. So yes, I am drawn to the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Windsor, and want to reject the cynicism of the Prime Minister’s supposed pledge.
I come to the second tempting reason why I and other Labour Members may want to vote for the hon. Gentleman’s amendment. I share his scepticism that the Prime Minister will be able to deliver what the hon. Gentleman wants. The truth is that none of us knows what powers and competences the Prime Minister wants to bring back, because he has kicked that question into the deepest of long grass, called the balance of competences review.
Mr Thomas
And my right hon. Friend rightly points out that the Minister would not answer the question today.
I have searched high and low for a hint of what the Leader of the Conservative party might want to do on that question. As my right hon. Friend said, the Minister for Europe has been asked directly a number of times, and has not given a straight answer. The hon. Member for Gainsborough asked him directly, and did not get a straight answer either.
Mr Steve Reed
Does my hon. Friend believe that perhaps in the Prime Minister’s mind is the warning from Lord Heseltine that an in/out referendum would be a gamble because it would damage Britain’s attractiveness as an inward investment market?
Mr Thomas
One hopes that the Prime Minister might listen to the warnings of the former Deputy Prime Minister, and that he will listen to other business leaders who have warned about the uncertainty of a referendum.
But I come back to this search to understand what powers and competences the Prime Minister might want to bring back to the UK. The Minister for Europe will not give us an answer, so I read the Hansard reports of the Committee stage at great length, but there is no sign there either of what powers and competences the Prime Minister wants to bring back. In desperation, I faced up to the challenge of reading the speeches of the Minister for Europe. During all that time that I will never get back I fought the urge to sleep, and I am sure that, being the excellent boss he is, the shadow Foreign Secretary will now want to make sure that I get more than just a Christmas card in the post at the end of the year.
Having waded through the Minister’s speeches, I reached two conclusions: first, his civil servants are just finding him things to do. The speeches were not that different, although they were made in lots of different places. Secondly, and much more serious, I do not think he has a clue what powers and competences the Prime Minister wants to bring back to the UK.
Mark Hendrick
Is it not the case that the Prime Minister is either unwilling or unable to say which competences he would like to repatriate because there is a question about his own competence, full stop?
Sir Edward Leigh
I cannot speak for the Minister, only for myself, but some of us want something very simple. We want to be able to control our own borders, fishing, agriculture and courts, and we want to stop small businesses being hit by ever more regulation. That is very clear and very simple, and that is the renegotiation that we want.
Mr Thomas
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and it is one of the reasons why I have always supported the campaign to get him on to his party’s Front Bench. I hope that the Minister for Europe has listened to the call for clarity from his Back Benches, and even at this point will intervene on me to tell the House what powers and competences he wants to get back.
Mr Thomas
I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, but I want to make a bit more progress on something in which I think he will be very interested.
The hon. Member for Windsor tabled his amendment before the European Scrutiny Committee had completed its task of reviewing the significance of the justice and home affairs opt-out decision, and all those responsibilities that the Government want to opt back in to. At paragraph 552 on page 148 of its report, it said that the Home Secretary had made it clear that the block opt-out was
“first and foremost about bringing powers back home.”
That is a view apparently shared by the Justice Secretary, who is also quoted in the report as saying that he regarded it as
“part of a process of bringing powers back to this country.”
But, sadly, the European Scrutiny Committee reached a very different conclusion. After examining a series of witnesses, it said:
“We see little evidence of a genuine and significant repatriation of powers.”
Given that the balance of competences review has dragged on and on, and will no doubt drag on some more, if the Minister for Europe cannot tell the House soon what powers and competences the Prime Minister wants to repatriate, the scepticism in his own party’s ranks, never mind throughout the country, will just grow and grow.
Mr Thomas
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for intervening on me to tell the Minister for Europe what he wants, but the Minister shows no signs of getting up to intervene and tell the House what powers and competences the Prime Minister wants to get back and whether they will meet the hon. Gentleman’s ambitions.
Thirdly, I suspect that the hon. Member for Windsor can make common cause with other Members who have tabled similar amendments to change the date of any referendum. My right hon. Friend the Member for Neath and my hon. Friends the Members for Ilford South, for Glasgow North East and for Derby North have suggested in amendment 77 that the period from July to December 2017, when Britain holds the presidency of the European Union, should be avoided. Surely that will be this country’s moment of maximum influence in Europe, when the Prime Minister of the day chairs the European Council and can set the agenda and force the rest of the European Union to consider Britain’s priorities. At that moment the Conservative party would have all the machinery and influence of Government focused not on fighting Britain’s corner but on fighting Tory Eurosceptics. It is diplomatic nonsense. It is not worthy of a Foreign Secretary supposedly serious about fighting for our national interest.
As the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South, amendments 21 to 27, and his speech underlined, the complete lack of flexibility in the Bill over dates for a referendum is surprising. In Committee the hon. Member for Cheltenham set out the perfectly plausible possibility that negotiations on treaty change might be ongoing as the Bill’s arbitrary deadline approached. Indeed, in Committee the Minister half accepted that such negotiations, involving many countries and considerable complexity, could still be taking place, but he was not prepared to allow any flexibility in the legislation. Ministers could be in the middle of crucial negotiations, but rather than concentrating on completing them just when they are in their most sensitive stage, they would have to switch all their attention from fighting Britain’s corner to fighting a referendum campaign. How on earth could such a situation be in the national interest? Is not the truth that the fruitcakes are not in UKIP; they have just been gobbled up by Ministers.
Despite my sympathy for what I think are the motivations of the hon. Member for Windsor, I cannot recommend support for his amendment. Given that for 40 of the past 41 months since the Conservative party took power prices have risen faster than wages, as a country we should be spending the next year concentrating on improving living standards, increasing the number of well paid jobs and tackling energy bills. A referendum next year, or indeed in four years’ time, would make that task harder as a result of all the uncertainty it would bring.
Consultation with a wider field of national bodies and local government, as amendment 68, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East, suggests, might have enabled the Prime Minister to withstand the pressure from the Tory right over timing. Why was a referendum later in the next Parliament ruled out? There does not appear to have been any input in that decision by any recognised national or local grouping, yet the Bill rules out such flexibility. Is not the truth that too many Conservative Members, because they do not trust the Prime Minister on matters European, are unwilling to trust him on the issue of a referendum beyond the halfway point of the next Parliament?
Let us consider the merits of amendment 68. When the Prime Minister decided to take the risk of allowing Britain to leave the European Union, at a potential average cost of £3,000 to the living standards of the British people, there was probably no one in the room who was not a member of the Conservative party, apart from Lynton Crosby. There was no one else to give the Prime Minister a view on whether a referendum might be in the national interest, or indeed, if a referendum were in the national interest, how it should be conducted and what information should be available when it took place.
Helen Goodman
On the amendment tabled by our hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain), does my hon. Friend not agree that this consultation is extremely important and necessary, given that the Bill has not been treated, as it should have been, as a constitutional Bill, with pre-legislative scrutiny and an opportunity for evidence-taking? We must have the amendment; otherwise, we will never know what enormously important stakeholders in this country believe.
Mr Thomas
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point, as indeed has our hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East. She points to the consultation deficit that is implicit in the way the referendum has been brought forward.
Nobody seriously doubts that a referendum will inject uncertainty into British economic life, putting at risk our constituents’ jobs and opportunities for higher living standards. The amendment offers the prospect of serious voices from outside the narrow confines of the Conservative party contributing to the debate on whether a referendum might be held and, if so, when and how. They would be calmer voices than those of Conservative Members terrified of losing their seats. When there is increasing talk about the possibility of interest rates rising, it is hard to believe that the Prime Minister is willing to risk such a huge cut in the living standards of the British people—£3,000 a year per household, according to the CBI—simply to try to maintain the fiction of unity over Europe among Conservative Members.
New schedule 2, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East, specifically suggests that the CBI should be consulted. I would welcome that, because a dose of realism about the stakes involved in a decision to leave the European Union is sorely needed. Any debate on whether, when and in what circumstances a national referendum should be held should surely be informed by contributions from those recognised as representing some of the major interests and communities in the UK.
Jack Dromey
My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. Does he agree that a strength of amendment 70, also tabled by our hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain), is that it would flush out hidden agendas, because it is apparent that behind the notion of repatriation lies a desire to move down the path towards Beecroft Britain? Our country cannot succeed on the basis of a race to the bottom on pay and conditions.
Mr Thomas
My hon. Friend makes a good point on the case for amendment 70 and the real motivations behind the Conservative campaign to get us out of Europe.
My right hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Secretary said on Second Reading:
“Any judgment about an in-out referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union has to be based on what is in the national interest.”—[Official Report, 5 July 2013; Vol. 565, c. 1180.]
A formal consultation with the organisations listed in new schedule 2 could certainly help the whole House, and Conservative Members in particular, reach a more rounded consideration of the circumstances in which a referendum would be in the national interest. It is far from clear that on matters European the Conservatives are able to reach a rational judgment on what is in the national interest, so consultation with a range of organisations beyond the 1922 committee may help us all.
We have heard from some Conservative Members about their dislike of the idea that business should be consulted formally. That is extraordinary: Conservatives turning away from business voices in this debate. Perhaps it is because one part of the business community, TheCityUK, last month published research into the views and mindset of captains of the financial services industry on the issues we are discussing in these amendments. It revealed that over 40% of those surveyed agreed that the prospect of a referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union in 2017 has created an uncertainty that is affecting decisions in their business. Over a third said that it was likely that their firm would relocate at least some of its headcount from the UK to a location within the single market if Britain left the European Union. That is just one part of the business community.
Mr Thomas
I am not going to give way.
That is just one part of a critical national interest that should be consulted on whether a referendum should be held and, if so, when, underlining the risk the Prime Minister is creating of British jobs being lost to France, Germany or some other country in the single market as a result of his wanting to sleepwalk out of the European Union.
Mr Thomas
I have given way to Government Members a number of times and I want to conclude my remarks.
My hon. Friend’s amendment lists a whole series of sensible organisations that have a view on the arrangements for the referendum. He has excluded one group, but his catch-all line on other bodies that the Secretary of State might see fit to consult would perhaps allow for ex-Prime Ministers. Both recent Labour Prime Ministers could offer sound advice to the Conservative party on Europe, and it would appear that the most recent previous Conservative Prime Minister could offer it sound advice too.
My hon. Friend’s amendment ought not to have been even remotely necessary. I welcome the fact that he tabled it and look forward to his winding up the debate, but I say gently to the Minister for Europe that he really needs to give this House some clarity soon about what powers and competences the Prime Minister wants to bring back to the UK as a result of the treaty change he believes is coming.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
This has been a very interesting and timely debate. Sadly, nothing we have heard from the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton)—the promoter of the Bill—or from the Minister who speaks for the Conservative party but perhaps not for the Government has dissuaded me from my view that we need to test the opinion of the House and ensure that this debate is not simply an issue for different factions of the Conservative party but involves the proper consultation of wider interests in this country before the date for a referendum is set.
As the debate has continued, we have seen increasingly clearly the number of jobs and the amount of prosperity that would be put at risk if the voices of businesses, trade unions, farmers, environmentalists, universities, the voluntary sector, local government and other institutions throughout our society are not listened to. These bodies have a strong interest in remaining part of the European Union and in seeing the benefits of the single market continue for decades to come.
We heard short speeches from the hon. Members for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and for Windsor (Adam Afriyie)—
Mr Thomas
I beg to move amendment 72, page 1, line 7, leave out subsection (4) and insert—
‘(4) Before making an order under subsection (3) the Secretary of State shall conduct a consultation lasting not less than six months on what question should appear on the ballot paper, and shall by order set out the question to be asked.’.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 35, page 1, leave out lines 8 and 9 and insert
‘Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?’.
Amendment 36, page 1, leave out lines 8 and 9 and insert
‘Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?’.
Amendment 37, page 1, line 10 , leave out ‘version’ and insert ‘translation’.
Amendment 38, page 1, line 11, after ‘order’, insert
‘after consultation with the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Assembly Government.’.
Amendment 39, page 1, line 11, at end insert—
‘(5A) In Scotland, a Gaelic translation of the question is also to appear on the ballot papers, as provided by order, after consultation with the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.’.
Amendment 40, page 1, line 11, at end insert—
‘( ) In Northern Ireland, a Gaelic translation of the question is also to appear on the ballot papers, as provided by order, after consultation with the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Northern Ireland Executive.’.
Amendment 71, page 1, line 12, leave out subsection (6) and insert—
‘(6) An order under this section shall be made by statutory instrument.
(7) An order under subsection (3) may not be made unless each House of Parliament has passed a resolution that the referendum shall take place on a day specified in the resolution and the day specified in the resolution is the same as in the order.
(8) An order under subsection (5) may not be made unless a draft of the order has been laid before, and approved by, a resolution of each House of Parliament.’.
Mr Thomas
I am grateful to the Speaker and to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for selecting amendment 72, which concerns the crucial issue of the wording of the proposed referendum question, as do amendments 35 to 40, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes). I also hope to speak to amendment 71, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain). My amendment 72 seeks to ensure there is a consultation about what the question appearing on the ballot paper will actually say.
If there were any doubt about whether this Bill was anything other than a party political stunt, we had the spectacle of the Conservative party chairman attacking the Electoral Commission when its statement about the question came out. He attacked it for raising concerns about the wording of the question to be put in any referendum. As I understand it, the Conservative party backed the establishment of the Electoral Commission as an independent force in British politics to help to enforce proper standards in the way that elections and, crucially, referendums take place. Now, because the Electoral Commission’s work produces some inconvenient truths, the Conservatives seek to rubbish it.
One would have thought that the whole House would recognise that if we are to have a referendum, we need to present a clear, impartial question that favours neither one side of an argument nor the other, in order to allow the British people a genuine choice. The great deficiency of this Bill is the lack of consultation with anybody before it emerged from Lynton Crosby’s office. The problems that the Electoral Commission has identified could have been ironed out before now if there had been a proper consultation. It is clear from the Electoral Commission’s work so far that we do not have clarity about what, in its view, the question should be, that the wording in the Bill as it stands is not appropriate and that further work by the commission to test the most appropriate options is necessary.
Kevin Brennan
Given my hon. Friend’s background, I am sure that he, too, will have thought of this, but given the equal status of the Welsh language in Wales, is it not also important in any consultation that this matter be considered before the question is decided, because of the possibility of confusion in the translation of the question?
Kevin Brennan
Just to be clear, I was not talking about Welsh speakers elsewhere in the UK, because the Welsh Language Act 1993 would not apply there and the question would therefore be in English only. However, where the Welsh language has equal legal status, surely the question should be considered in both languages before it is decided on.
Mr Thomas
My hon. Friend makes an accurate point. My point was simply that all Welsh speakers, wherever they reside, would want to ensure that the translation of the question into Welsh in Wales was properly thought through and consulted on—a point he makes extremely well.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South has done the House a service in tabling the other amendments in this group.
Mike Gapes
I did not intend to intervene, but given that my name was taken, I feel I have to—[Interruption.] No, not in vain—and not in Welsh, either. What my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) mentioned was the purpose of my amendments, which relate not just to Wales, but to the Gaelic language with regard to Scotland and to the need for consultation. If I have the opportunity, I will introduce my amendments later today or perhaps next week.
Mr Thomas
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I have more knowledge and a higher comfort level when it comes to speaking about the concerns of Welsh speakers than of those who speak Gaelic, but I recognise that my hon. Friend, in drawing the House’s attention to the issue of Gaelic translation, is making an extremely important point. Both my hon. Friends, the Members for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) and for Ilford South, who have intervened thus far have, through their specific points—including one I have raised a number of times—essentially made the broader point that there has been a huge consultation deficit with this Bill. That is most unlike the way in which referendums usually take place. It is sad, if I may put it this way, that my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South has had to seek to address particular aspects of that consultation deficit by forcing the Minister for Europe and, indeed, the Bill’s sponsor, to consider the issue of Welsh translation and of Gaelic translation, too.
Let me come back to the broader point I was making about the need for proper consultation with the Electoral Commission and the need for sufficient time to allow that commission to do the thoughtful work that all who have an interest in this referendum want it to do. My concern is that the further work that the Electoral Commission has said in its statement is necessary would not be available to the House of Commons to discuss.
It is true that the further work of the Electoral Commission might be available for the deliberations in the other place. It is possible that the other place might amend the Bill, in which case it could come back to this place, but there is absolutely no guarantee that the other place would pass an amendment to this particular part of the Bill, allowing this House, the primary Chamber, to consider the Electoral Commission’s further work. It would be some irony, would it not, if the other place were left to make the key decisions on a Bill that is being presented as the chance to win back powers for the House of Commons?
We know how important it is to get potential referendum questions right. There was protracted and lengthy debate in Scotland about the wording of the question for the referendum that is due to take place next year. After proper consultation had taken place there, the First Minister was forced to back a new form of words. Hon. Members will also recall the debate surrounding the wording of the most recent referendum to take place across the whole of the UK—the alternative vote referendum, which asked the electorate whether they preferred the alternative vote system over the traditional first-past-the-post electoral system.
I suspect that some of us will find it less comfortable than others to recall the result of that referendum. However, as the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) noted in Committee, referendums are sometimes nothing like as clear-cut as the EU referendum was and can instead be decided by “minute percentages”. The referendum on whether Quebec should stay part of Canada, for example, was decided by less than 1% back in 1995. It is absolutely vital to consider carefully the wording of the question. It is also vital to ensure that we have a fair process to determine what the question should be and that we think through the psychological impact that a particular form of words might have on the question.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend makes an important point about the situation in Quebec. Does he also recognise that a significant degree of debate and concern was expressed before, during and after that referendum about the very wording of the question, which resulted in the Canadian House of Commons having to pass a clarity Bill about referendum questions and how they should be considered by Parliament?
Mr Thomas
My hon. Friend has studied his Canadian history, and the House is better informed as a result. I suspect that we need some form of clarity Act to try to encourage the Minister for Europe—or, indeed, the Foreign Secretary—to set out what powers and competences they want the Prime Minister to repatriate back to the UK after the treaty change that they say is coming. We are in the dark because neither the Minister for Europe nor the Foreign Secretary will tell the House—nor will the Prime Minister. Hopefully, a clarity Act is not needed in the context of the referendum question, but I hope that my hon. Friend’s point about the Canadian clarity Act might finally jog the Minister for Europe into some action and clarity about the broader issues before us.
The Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 set out a number of important changes to how we do politics in our country—in particular, the regulation of referendums. Under the 2000 Act, the Electoral Commission, that much respected independent body responsible for supervising and implementing the regulatory framework of our electoral system, has a statutory responsibility to report on the intelligibility of a question included in a referendum Bill. [Interruption.] I see that the Minister for Europe is getting advice from the Whips in the form of the former Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Prime Minister. One hopes that the Minister is being passed information about the Prime Minister’s intentions on powers and competences.
Mr Kevan Jones
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I ask for your guidance? Is it in order for a Government Whip to be standing up having a long, detailed conversation with the Minister while my hon. Friend is moving his amendment?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
As the hon. Gentleman knows, that is not a point of order. I expect that the hon. Gentleman in question meant to be sitting and will do so from now on.
Mr Thomas
For the avoidance of doubt, I should say that I took no offence. Anything that can be done to enlighten the Minister for Europe about what the Prime Minister’s question might be on the crucial issue of the powers and competences that he wants to repatriate to the UK can only be helpful.
I was focusing on the work of the Electoral Commission, which was established by the 2000 Act. It has the crucial statutory responsibility to report on the intelligibility of a question included in a referendum Bill, as soon as is practicable, once it has been laid before Parliament. What we are discussing is the Electoral Commission’s ninth such referendum question assessment report; it has done sterling work on a series of other referendums. It is worth our reflecting on those.
The Electoral Commission was asked to assess the intelligibility of questions for the 2011 referendum on the powers of the National Assembly for Wales; for the 2011 UK-wide referendum on the parliamentary voting system, on which I would rather not dwell; for a range of local government referendums that have been held in England since 2008; and, of course, for the forthcoming referendum on independence for Scotland. This is the first time the Electoral Commission has undertaken an assessment exercise for a question included in a private Member’s Bill. However, there can be no doubting the experience of the commission in judging accurately what the referendum question should be, given its extensive previous involvement in eight other referendums.
The provisions for the holding of a referendum to be included in a private Member’s Bill are extremely unusual.
The Electoral Commission is probably not the only organisation looking on in confusion at the strange road down which the Prime Minister and the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) have decided to travel.
Mr Thomas
I will give way in a second.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) makes a good point. Although I will listen with particular care to the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South about amendment 35, I suggest that my amendment is more appropriate. We should not be second-guessing the Electoral Commission. We should ask it to complete its work and give us a clear sense of what the question could be. The Electoral Commission found that changing the wording in the way suggested could also reinforce the importance and significance of the referendum as a formal mechanism for seeking consent from the electorate. Apparently, the Electoral Commission felt that there was a risk that some people would not understand that the referendum was a formal exercise taken seriously by the Government. Quite why so many members of the public should feel that the Prime Minister’s referendum proposal is not a matter to be taken seriously is beyond me. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) wants to share some information on that.
Wayne David
Going back to the definition of “country”, if, God forbid, Scotland decided to break away from the Union, would the reference to the United Kingdom still be valid?
Mr Thomas
I hope that that scenario is not presented to us, but we would clearly need to ensure that the appropriate consultation took place about any necessary changes to the referendum proposal. We know from the comments from the Minister for Europe, provoked by the hon. Member for Cheltenham, that he is not wedded to the 2017 date and can imagine situations in which the legislation might have to be scrapped or amended. Perhaps the scene that my hon. Friend has just painted is a further example that the Minister for Europe had in mind.
Perhaps those questioned by the commission could sense the more than slight disparity in the views of Government Members and the less than steadfast commitment to a referendum from the Government parties’ Minister for Europe. The Electoral Commission’s research shows that some people felt that “Do you think” sounded more like an opinion poll than a binding vote. It is for others to say whether it was with opinion polls in mind that this whole exercise was initiated by the hon. Member for Stockton South, Lynton Crosby and the Prime Minister.
The Electoral Commission recommended that the opening phrase “Do you think” should be replaced with the word “Should”. The commission has considerable expertise in this area, as I have already set out. Indeed, the commission has a range of other duties on referendums under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, including registering organisations or individuals that want to campaign in a referendum, monitoring spending on referendum campaigning in line with referendum spending limits, and acting as the chief counting officer for the referendum. As it has such duties, the commission is clearly the go-to organisation for all things referendum. The Opposition take its guidance extremely seriously. When the Minister responds to the debate, I would be interested to hear whether he is likewise prepared to stand up to the chairman of the Conservative party and take the considered views of the Electoral Commission on board.
The other key amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South deals with another problem identified by the Electoral Commission, concerning making the question clearer and improving understanding. The Electoral Commission’s research found
“low levels of contextual understanding of the European Union, with some participants having no knowledge of the European Union, or the status of UK membership of the EU, at all.”
Importantly, the issue about which we should be concerned is the fact that many participants in the Electoral Commission’s research felt that the question
“was misleading because it does not make clear that the United Kingdom is currently a member of the European Union.”
We know that that is an issue of great concern to the Conservative party. An article in The Mail on Sunday during the summer told us that frantic negotiations occurred behind closed doors as the Prime Minister bowed to Eurosceptic pressure—again, one might say—and revised the question so that voters would be asked whether the UK should “be” in the EU rather than “remain”, as in the original wording. Apparently, Conservative Eurosceptics, desperate to give their position on the referendum an edge, wanted the question to be less clear—an extraordinary ambition. I have absolutely no idea whether the piece in The Mail on Sunday is accurate, although the journalist who wrote it is not known for being wrong too often. I gently suggest to Government Members that the Mail’s piece underlines the fact that if they want to present this proposition as less of a stunt in future they must take seriously independent advice about how the question should be drafted. The 1922 committee or Lynton Crosby’s office are not the places to be doing such drafting.
While the Prime Minister may be getting bullied again by his noisy and impatient Back Benchers, Labour Members believe that we should listen to the Electoral Commission’s recommendation that the final question on the ballot paper should clearly reflect the UK’s current position within the European Union. If we are to have a referendum, the question should make it clear that the UK is already a member. We see no benefit of shrouding the issue or being purposefully unclear to the electorate. The Electoral Commission identifies a risk of there being ambiguity in the question, with the consequence that it might be misleading to some voters. Labour Members take that considerable concern seriously.
A question to the electorate that would be less ambiguous would be whether the UK should “remain” a member of the EU. The Electoral Commission found that many people felt that the question was asking them whether the United Kingdom should become a member, rather than remain a member, and thought that they were being asked to vote on the UK joining the European Union. Importantly, even those who were aware of the UK’s status as a member of the European Union agreed that the question in the Bill might be misleading. We have already had a referendum on whether the UK should join the European Union. It was proposed not in the manifesto of the Conservative party, nor in that of the Liberal Democrats, but in a Labour manifesto. The referendum was set out in a Labour White Paper and put to the electorate by a Labour Government. By tabling amendment 35, my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South is trying to avoid causing some voters to think that they are back in the 1970s. He wants to ensure that the question in any referendum that we might have is not misleading in any way.
Kevin Brennan
My hon. Friend makes an important point about amendment 35, but does he agree that amendment 36 would not pass the ambiguity test? Amendment 36 proposes the question:
“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”,
but it is almost impossible to answer that on a ballot paper in a referendum.
Chris Williamson
To pick up on the intervention made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), the Electoral Commission said that if Parliament decided to go with a proposal that was not a yes-or-no question, the most neutral question would be the one that he thinks is misleading:
“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”
Does my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) have a view about that?
Mr Thomas
My view is reflected in amendment 72. I hope that my hon. Friend will understand if I do not dwell on his point, because I want to accelerate through the remaining points in my speech.
Through amendment 36, my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South proposes a question that gives an accurate position of the UK’s status in the EU and allows voters clearly to see the options open to them. It reflects the recommendation of the Electoral Commission, should Parliament wish to look beyond a yes-or-no question. The commission’s research highlighted the view that that question would provide equal weighting to the words “remain” and “leave”, which was thought to improve the neutrality of the question. Indeed, the commission found that question to be the “most balanced and neutral” of the options it tested, so we should take that clear recommendation on board. Its report said of the question:
“All participants understood what they were being asked and were able to answer it in the way they had intended.”
One might wonder whether that is not precisely what we want to achieve.
Given the limited time the Electoral Commission had to compile its report, there is a need for further consultation on and testing of the wording of the referendum question. The commission noted that
“it was not possible in the time available to fully explore and user test the impact of any variations to the wording”.
It would like further time for research and, especially, to consult potential referendum campaigners. Amendment 72 would build on the provisions of the 2000 Act, which led to this first useful report from the commission, by allowing further consultation to uncover any further problems in the wording of possible questions and to suggest what the wording should be.
Kevin Brennan
My hon. Friend has made the point that the Electoral Commission has said that the wording in amendment 36 provides that balance. However, does he agree that, using the approach that was tried in the Welsh referendum on devolution in 1997, the problem could be overcome by means of wording such as, “I agree that the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union” or “I do not agree that the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union”? The questions would be clearly set out and voters could tick a box, whereas it would be difficult to tick a box to answer the question as stated in the amendment.
Mr Thomas
I hear the concerns of my hon. Friend. I do not have a particularly strong view at this stage on the point that he makes. My argument is that there needs to be further consultation by the experts, the Electoral Commission. That is the most sensible way forward. That seems to us on the Opposition Front Bench the minimum that should be required to get the question right. We should hear further from the Electoral Commission, and I would welcome the Minister’s views on that.
Let me underline our view that it should be a matter of concern to the whole House that there might not be time for the House of Commons to consider further the consultation work that the Electoral Commission plans to undertake. Again, I have a high regard for the other place, but it is this Chamber which is subject to the will of the people, and it is this Chamber which might be excluded from debating the Electoral Commission’s further conclusions. We should have more consultation.
Lastly, amendment 71, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East, would force a referendum to be confirmed by all Members of the House instead of that decision being delegated to a Committee. That is surely a sensible suggestion. It would be useful to hear the Minister’s views on it. All Members should take responsibility for a decision of such magnitude. It is a decision about the living standards of the British people, after all.
Unless the Minister for Europe performs oratorical feats that he is not yet known for on European matters, I intend to press amendment 72 to a Division, but before that I look forward to the contributions of other hon. Members and of the Minister.
Chris Williamson
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In relation to the Electoral Commission’s advice to Parliament, can you clarify whether the Bill’s sponsors have made any late attempt to amend the question contained in the Bill, in view of the clear recommendation from the commission that they should do so?
Mr Lidington
I will leave that to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South, if he wishes to respond as the promoter of the Bill. We have a clear example within the past two years of a referendum that has been conducted in the UK, including within Wales. I do not recall any instance in that context when people in Wales protested that the wording in the Welsh language was in any way misleading. That question was based on the use of the term “Welsh version” in the parent legislation.
With regard to Scots Gaelic, we are dealing here with a UK-wide referendum. We have, under specific legislation, provision for UK elections and UK referendums to include a Welsh language version of the questions or party names on the relevant ballot papers. There is no equivalent in UK legislation for Scots Gaelic, Irish Gaelic or any other language to be used in that way, so, again, the provisions in the Bill are completely in line with normal precedent as regards UK practice in legislation.
Finally, there is the important category of amendments on the wording of the question, which draw upon the Electoral Commission’s recent report. It is important to bear in mind how the commission went about its work and the tone with which it presented its report. It carried out 103 interviews with individuals and received representations from 19 individuals and organisations. On the basis of those consultations and its own analysis, it concluded that the Bill met most of the tests that it would normally expect any referendum question to meet. It did not put forward an alternative wording but, rather usually, suggested—I use the term deliberately—two possible alternative wordings. There was no suggestion anywhere in its findings that the question drafted by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South was misleading or in any way designed to be unfair, but it suggested that Parliament might like to consider some alternative forms of words.
Mr Thomas
With all due respect to the Minister, the Electoral Commission’s view is crystal clear. It stated:
“We recommend that the wording of the proposed referendum question included in the European Union (Referendum) Bill should be amended to make it more direct and to the point, and to improve clarity and understanding.”
Surely he read that sentence.
Mr Lidington
If the hon. Gentleman goes back to the report, he will see that the commission stated very clearly that it believed that the question drafted by my hon. Friend met pretty much all the tests it would expect. There was a debate on the degree of clarity, and the commission drew attention to the fact that there were different views among the people they consulted and from whom they received representations about both my hon. Friend’s wording and the various options that the commission invited Parliament to consider.
Mr Bain
My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head. Throughout the entire passage of the Bill, neither the hon. Member for Stockton South nor the Minister representing the Government or the Conservative party—hon. Members are not sure about his status—have been able to answer the important questions about the implications of a yes or a no vote. Neither has there been any indication of the precise date on which the Government propose to hold the referendum.
As I said, from my experience in Scotland, that issue is critical. It is not simply a matter of process; it will come into the heart of the entire debate. I do not believe that leaving the Bill in its current form, and letting it give the Executive the powers that it does, does this country or Parliament any service. It is important that we improve the Bill, putting in clearer safeguards for Parliament and the country.
On the amendments tabled by my hon. Friends the Members for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) and for Harrow East.
Mr Bain
My apologies; it is important to be able to distinguish between east and west.
The wording of the question is critical. In the 1975 referendum, specific reference was made to the UK staying in the EEC, as it was. There was a further clarification by means of the insertion of the words “Common Market” after “the European Community” in the referendum question. The Electoral Commission has identified that the question under consideration, in its current form, could create an ambiguity in the minds of an important group of voters, who might believe that the European Union was completely different from Europe or from what we are engaged in at the moment. The Electoral Commission’s advice should be taken carefully by the hon. Member for Stockton South and the Government.
As has been mentioned, the wording of the question is critical. In the Quebec referendum of 1995, when the proposers of separatism argued that a question could be framed around the word “sovereignty”, that generated an outcome of less than 1% in favour of those who wished to remain part of Canada. In Scotland, we saw a politically motivated process with the question as drafted being corrected by the Electoral Commission and other political opinion, which held the Executive to account. If the hon. Gentleman is to make any kind of persuasive case for a referendum, he simply must engage with the arguments that the Electoral Commission has made. The commission has said that there is a danger that his question, which is endorsed by the Conservative part of the Government, is too ambiguous, and that needs to be resolved by this House and potentially by the other place in future proceedings on the Bill.
Mr Thomas
My hon. Friend is making a very good speech, using all his European and referendum experience. Can he remember any other referendum situation in the UK where the Government proposed, as the Minister for Europe did in his speech, to ignore the Electoral Commission’s clear advice that the question needs amending?
Mark Hendrick
No. By the standards of the Conservative party, we have a moderate, reasonable Europe Minister in his place on the Front Bench, who has over the years given serious consideration to most people’s point of view on issues related to Europe. It surprises me that a man of his calibre is doing not only the work of being a very good Europe Minister, which he is, but the dirty work of the Conservative party, giving the impression that as a reasonable man he is disregarding the important qualifications set out by the Electoral Commission.
Finally, any question of leaving the European Union should point out that such an exit would have to be negotiated. Perhaps the question should be, “Should the UK negotiate its exit from the European Union under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty?” Any such question should make clear reference to the fact that we are already in the European Union, and the question should be whether or not we remain in the European Union.
Gibraltar
Gareth Thomas Excerpts(10 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mark Simmonds
I thank my hon. Friend for articulating the concern of many people both inside and outside this House, across the United Kingdom and in Gibraltar. It may be helpful if I give the House the most up-to-date information and the facts. It was not a Spanish naval vessel that went into British territorial waters, but a Spanish-owned oceanographic vessel. It did not get to the entrance of Gibraltar harbour, but was about 250 metres from it. It needs to be reiterated that an escalation of this matter is in nobody’s interest. A political solution to the dispute is required. Of course nothing is taken off the table. We constantly review the naval presence in and around Gibraltar, and we are certainly doing so now. We are keen to return to the ad hoc talks, from which the current Spanish Government withdrew in 2011, involving both the British and Spanish Governments and also the Government of Gibraltar.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) on securing this urgent question. I rise now to underline the deep concern on the Labour Benches that further Spanish ships entered British Gibraltar territorial waters yesterday without authorisation and stayed for more than 20 hours. Spain is our ally in NATO and on the world stage and is often our ally in the European Council, so its actions on Gibraltar are even more reprehensible in that context. The Spanish Government should be in no doubt that both sides of the House share the anger about yesterday’s events.
Will the Minister tell the House when he or other Ministers became aware of the Spanish ship’s incursion into our waters yesterday, and whether any effort was made during the 20 or more hours the ship was in our waters to contact officials or Ministers in the Spanish Government to demand that the ship be ordered to withdraw?
I welcome the decision by Ministers yesterday to again summon the Spanish ambassador. Is the Minister or the Foreign Secretary planning further calls to their Spanish Government counterparts to underline the seriousness with which this latest action is viewed? Gibraltar cannot and should not be used by Spain’s Government to score cheap political points.
The Chief Minister of Gibraltar is quoted as saying that he has discussed the possibility of more senior assets of the Royal Navy being put at the disposal of the commander of British forces in Gibraltar. Will the Minister give us more information on those discussions and tell us whether he has had, or intends to have, further talks with the European Commission on the ongoing delays at the border?
Finally, the Minister made brief reference to the Spanish Government having pulled out of the trilateral forum in 2011. Does he see any sign of the Spanish accepting the need to return once again to the use of that sensible diplomatic channel for discussions?
Mark Simmonds
The hon. Gentleman asked a series of questions. I first became aware of this incursion yesterday morning. The House will not be surprised to learn that there were contacts between the British Government and the Spanish Government to encourage the Spanish Government to ensure that the vessel was removed from British Gibraltar territorial waters. I can give the hon. Gentleman an assurance that, as far as I am aware—this was the situation when I came to the House to answer the urgent question—the vessel had not returned to British Gibraltar territorial waters as was its intention yesterday, so those contacts have had some impact. The discussions about whether the naval presence in and around Gibraltar is correct are ongoing and the hon. Gentleman will not be surprised that I will not go into the detail at this stage. We are also in constant contact with the Government of Gibraltar to ensure that the information being provided is available to the Governments of both the UK and Gibraltar.
Let me also address the point that the hon. Gentleman made about the European Commission and its role in trying to settle this political dispute. He will be aware that the Commission visited the border on 25 September and will not be surprised to hear that there were few delays during that visit. The Commission has committed to monitoring the situation and possibly to returning in six months’ time. We continue to provide evidence to the Commission about what we believe is the unlawful Spanish activity. We also urge the Spanish to implement the recommendations made by the Commission to the Spanish Government about how they can improve ease of access across the border. Those recommendations are to optimise physical space on the Spanish side, including increasing the number of vehicle lanes; to carry out more targeted checks, particularly as they relate to the significant problem of tobacco smuggling; and to develop a mechanism to exchange information with the United Kingdom specifically to target tobacco smuggling.