Universal Credit: North-West

Lord Evans of Rainow Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Marie Rimmer]

Yes, there will. How can it be right that anyone should be subject to a great injustice based on a postcode lottery determined by arbitrary decisions and the serial failings of the Department for Work and Pensions in delivering the programmes thus far? We have all heard the arguments on tax credits, and Members on both sides of the House were in agreement. Surely the change of terminology to universal credit from tax credit does not justify or warrant these cuts. It is simply indefensible that some people should be cast aside in this incompetent administrative experiment.

We have experienced other issues during the roll-out of universal credit. It would be unreasonable to assume that such a large scheme could be implemented without hiccups and a certain level of teething problems. The Government were forced to slow down the roll-out of the programme dramatically compared with their original aim. The OBR forecast in March 2013 that there would be 6.1 million claimants, but it is now expected that 330,000 people will receive universal credit during 2016-17. However, the problems that we have experienced in the north-west go well beyond what could be put down to normal problems that can be ironed out as the system beds in.

A range of administrative issues have had a terrible impact on people in receipt of universal credit. Many of the issues were highlighted in a report by Citizens Advice published in the summer of 2015. That report, “Waiting for Credit,” was drawn from 16 citizens advice bureaux, the majority of them in the north-west, including St Helens CAB. It detailed a range of issues faced by people claiming universal credit and by those trying to access it. For instance, universal credit is paid monthly in arrears. Following a new claim, the aim is for the claimant to be paid within five weeks—that is a total of nine weeks. The time lag causes claimants huge short-term financial difficulties, even when that aim is adhered to. However, the report found that 30% of claimants had to wait even longer.

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for securing this important debate. She mentioned that people are paid monthly in arrears. Does that not apply to everybody who works for a living and pays taxes, which is what ultimately pays for the welfare?

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[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Nuttall, for calling me to speak in this important debate. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Marie Rimmer) for bringing this important debate to this Chamber today. In the last Parliament, it was my privilege to work for three years on the Work and Pensions Committee. We conducted an investigation and produced a report on the introduction and roll-out of universal credit, and we visited jobcentres in the Greater Manchester area. Indeed, we also conducted an investigation at about the same time into jobcentres themselves, which was overwhelmingly welcomed by the people at the sharp end—the people who work in jobcentres.

A couple of weeks ago, I visited two local jobcentres—one in Runcorn and one in Northwich—and the staff told me that universal credit made it a lot easier to help people to get into work, particularly the long-term unemployed. Together with the changes that the Government have introduced to tax, which effectively take some of the lowest-paid people out of tax altogether, universal credit helps people who have been unemployed for a long time. There is a clear incentive to work, because people can keep more of their pay. The Government intend to introduce a system whereby people can earn £12,500—just over £1,000 a month—before they start to pay income tax.

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that this change marks a profound shift in the welfare system? As many people would expect, the welfare system is now a mechanism to help people into work, as opposed to a catchment for people to remain unemployed.

[Graham Evans]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend; he hits the nail on the head. This change is about enabling people to stand on their own two feet and to get away from the welfare culture that grew under the 13 years of the previous Labour Administration. When Labour introduced tax credits, they were going to cost £4 billion; the figure is now £30 billion. That is simply unaffordable. As a nation, do we pay money to people for not working or do we encourage them to stand on their own two feet and get a job? And as I say, the tax incentive means that people can earn about £1,000 a month before paying tax, because Conservatives believe that people should keep more of their earnings.

[Fiona Bruce]

Perhaps it is also good to remember that this Government are going to double the amount of free childcare to 30 hours a week, which for working parents of three and four-year-olds is worth about £5,000 a year per child. More than that, even for those on universal credit there is help. Universal credit currently covers up to 70% of eligible childcare costs, but from April that will increase to 85%. That is a huge difference, worth £1,368 per year for every child.

[Graham Evans]

I am most grateful for that intervention; my hon. Friend makes a very powerful point. As I have said, jobcentre staff say that the changes that the Government have introduced to simplify welfare and benefits, and the incentive to work, enable those people who are unemployed to get into work quickly. And for long-term unemployed people who have been on benefits for many years, there are now clear incentives to get into work, because they will keep more of the money they earn; universal credit enables them to keep more of what they earn.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

It has emerged clearly from this discussion that there needs to be greater awareness of the cuts to the universal credit work allowance that are coming in this April. Let me just give the example of a single parent—say, a single mother—with one or more children. That allowance will be halved from April from £8,808 to £4,764, which is a reduction of £4,044. In cash terms, that working mother will lose £2,628 from this April. How on earth is that an incentive to work?

[Graham Evans]

We have to look at the whole scheme. We have to look at the fairness to those in receipt of welfare and benefits, but what we never hear about from Labour Members is that the scheme has to be fair to the people who pay for it, who are the hard-working taxpayers. If we look at people who are working—[Interruption.] I know it is controversial to talk about the people who actually contribute and pay for welfare, but we have to look at the people who make the decisions to work hard and work full-time. The examples that people always look at are of people who work part-time, and their income is topped up. Well, we have to look at the decisions of people who work hard every day. They have to work full-time—work, work—and make those decisions and pay taxes, which go into the welfare system.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Graham Evans]

I will give way to the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) and then I want to make some progress.

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

I intend to make a speech, and I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s courtesy in giving way. I gently say to him—this is important in a debate on universal credit—that Britain is not divided into two groups of people: those who pay taxes and those who receive welfare benefits. It is a lot more complicated than that. The point of universal credit was actually to allow a seamless transition between the two to support people. The point of this debate should be to point out that that transition is not working so far in the initial roll-out of universal credit. That is where the attention needs to lie in a discussion such as this.

[Graham Evans]

As always, the hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. I am not saying that the system is perfect. Under the Labour Government, the welfare system was very complicated. In the previous Parliament, the Government tried to make it simpler and fairer for people in receipt of welfare while also making it fairer for the people who pay for it—hard-working taxpayers. Not for one minute am I saying that the system is perfect, but the people who work in Jobcentre Plus tell me that universal credit makes it a lot easier and simpler for them to help people, particularly the long-term unemployed, to get into work. That is the evidence in my constituency.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Graham Evans]

May I make a bit of progress first? I have actually got a speech here.

Everyone with the ability to work should be given the support and opportunity to do so. The previous system wrote too many people off for too long, and too many people were left in a cycle of welfare. The point behind the reforms is to break that cycle. The roll-out of universal credit will fundamentally transform the welfare benefits system in Britain and the north-west, making 3 million people better off and bringing £33 billion in economic benefits to society. Universal credit will simplify and streamline the welfare system, improve work incentives, tackle poverty among low-income families and reduce the scope for error and fraud.

The hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston gave some powerful examples. I am not saying that errors do not happen; of course they do. Things are not perfect, but other nations around the world are looking at the welfare reforms that the previous Government introduced and are considering doing the same. Since the introduction of universal credit, unemployment in the north-west has fallen by 50,000—more than 30%. Unemployment in my constituency has more than halved in the same period. While that fall cannot be solely attributed to universal credit, its roll-out has had a part to play in that success, and it will continue to play a major part in entrenching that success as the roll-out continues.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Gentleman is making powerful points, but I am sure that he recognises the concerns of those of us on this side of the Chamber. Government Members may share those concerns, to be fair. Society is marked by its attitude to those on low incomes and the less well-off. In this House, we have a duty to them as well as to taxpayers, who provide income. Does he accept that universal credit is causing undue delays for many of my constituents and those of other Members in the Chamber? There is a knock-on effect on those receiving benefit with the changes to their income tax, tax credits and housing benefit. Some people are without money for periods of seven, eight, nine or even 10 weeks. There has to be something wrong with a system that cannot respond to the needs of those on low incomes when they need it most.

[Graham Evans]

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. There is a lot of evidence that delays are there, and those delays are unacceptable for the individuals concerned. I will not attempt to defend that. The system is not perfect, but any individual cases should be brought perhaps to the attention of the Member of Parliament, but certainly to the attention of Jobcentre Plus and the benefits agency. Those cases should be looked into and investigated.

People claiming universal credit are 13% more likely to be in work than people claiming jobseeker’s allowance. They are earning more money and are more willing to take a job. One constituent of mine, a hairdresser, was complaining. She said, “At this time of year, I usually get a rebate on income tax, but because I now have a far better personal allowance, I do not have that problem.” She is keeping more of her hard-earned money. That is what the Government are helping the lowest-paid to do.

Employment has been the Government’s real success. A thousand jobs were created each and every day during the last Parliament. That represents 2 million jobs over that period. The Office for Budget Responsibility predicts that a further million jobs will be created over the next five years. This country is the economic powerhouse of Europe. Yorkshire is creating more jobs than France, and that is why so many people want to come here. We have good quality, well-paid jobs, and the living wage is being introduced. We have a far better working environment than many other countries in the European Union. That all indicates just how successful the Government have been at getting people off benefits and back into work. There are so many opportunities in all our communities, and it is important that we expose those opportunities to those looking for work.

Crucial to the Government’s success has been the support towards childcare costs for parents, as my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) pointed out. Under universal credit, there is additional cover for childcare costs for parents, with up to 70% of childcare costs covered regardless of hours worked. That will be increased to 85% this year, with a monthly limit of £646 for one child and more than £1,000 for two or more children, helping more parents into work. When my children were younger, I remember Mrs Evans saying, “It is pointless me going back to work because of the childcare costs.” I know that the cover for childcare costs is an important step forward in helping working mums to work longer and keep more of their money.

The ethos of “It pays to work” is built into the DNA of the Government’s reforms, particularly universal credit. I have no doubt that as universal credit is rolled out further, we will continue to see more and more people getting back into work. The hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston referred to the region as a guinea pig, but I am comfortable and proud that the north-west has led the way. I was particularly pleased when universal credit started in my jobcentres in Weaver Vale, because it made a massive difference. I pay tribute to the hard-working staff at Runcorn and Northwich jobcentres for the fantastic work they do helping people back into employment. They are a great example of best practice, and their hard work was recognised by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when he visited the jobcentre in Northwich at the end of last year. He gave the staff an award for the number of people they had helped back into work. The staff at Northwich jobcentre have told me that the introduction of universal credit has made their job easier.

A lot of people come into Weaver Vale to work. As the MP, I am puzzled why people travel great distances to work in my constituency yet I still have unemployed people. One of my challenges is to get my constituents to take the jobs that are virtually on their doorstep. That is why, when I became the MP, I started my jobs and apprenticeship fairs. The fifth will take place next month. The first time I did it, there were a lot of unemployed people, but that number has halved over the past four or five years. It is the harder-to-reach people who are left. The companies that come to my jobs fairs are fine-tuning their job offers for people who perhaps have not been in work for a long, long time.

I was most privileged to have the John Lewis Partnership come into Northwich. I am sure Members will agree that Waitrose is a fantastic organisation. When it came, it said, “We will guarantee that 30% of interviews will be for local people.” That was only an interview, not a job, but it was so impressed with the calibre and the quality of the interviewees that it ended up with more than 50% of its employees being local people. Some of those people had been long-term employed, but Jobcentre Plus had worked with the local authority and Mid Cheshire College, training the people for job interviews, CV filling out and what retail employers are looking for. That was a great example of organisations working together to get the long-term unemployed working for the great company that is the John Lewis Partnership. That 50% figure is an achievement of which we can be proud. The reforms are transforming the lives of some of the poorest families in our communities and giving people the skills and the opportunity to get on in life and stand on their own two feet.

I am keen to move Weaver Vale—indeed, Great Britain —from a low-wage, high-tax, high-welfare economy to a higher-wage, lower-tax, lower-welfare country. I support the Government’s reforms in welfare and universal credit. The system is not perfect, but it is far better than that attempted by the previous Government. I believe it is working, as proved by the reduction in unemployment, the growth in wages and the quality of the jobs now available in this country.

[Mr David Nuttall (in the Chair)]

Will people who wish to catch my eye please stand?

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[Yvonne Fovargue]

I agree, but, as for sending emails, the local authority did a survey to see how many people in Wigan use the internet regularly and found that 30% have never accessed or even looked at the internet. We need to think about those people. When we look at digital by default as a way of claiming, we need to provide more help for people to claim in other ways and not penalise them with a delay.

[Graham Evans]

The hon. Lady is making powerful points and I do not disagree with a lot of what she is saying. My hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) also just made a very good point. On digital by default, when I left school there were no computers. I have had to learn how to use computers throughout my life, so I know how difficult it is for people of a certain age to gain access to the internet. Even now, I am not perfect—my children are far better. Does the hon. Lady agree that, in the 21st century, if someone is unemployed and looking for a job but is not very good with the internet and computers, they will not find many jobs in which some form of computer use would not be required at a basic level? It may be that 30% of the hon. Lady’s constituents have never accessed the internet, but as much help as possible should be given to that 30% to enable them to apply for jobs, because I am pretty sure that computers will be involved.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I do not disagree, but in the meantime people should not be penalised by having to seek help to claim the universal credit benefit because it is digital by default. If they want help to claim, there are agencies that can help, but there is often a delay in receiving an appointment for that. People should not be penalised because they have to wait to claim universal credit simply because they do not have access to a computer. That is another issue to look at.

When claims are refused, people are sometimes confused about why. Again, a helpline number—an 0800 number—would be extremely helpful for those people. When it gets complicated, there should be a named person to help them. I do not think anyone would disagree with the idea that we want to make the system as simple as possible. We know that people’s lives are complicated and that they move in and out of work, particularly those in low-paid work. Anything that makes the transition more simple should be looked at carefully.

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[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to contribute to this important debate under your chairmanship, Mr Nuttall. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Marie Rimmer) for securing this debate. It is primarily focused on the north-west of England, but as it concerns the roll-out of universal credit across the isles, the implications of what is said this morning stretch much further than the north-west. I congratulate her on her very good speech. She rightly did not shirk the opportunity to give the Government a kicking on their record on this matter. I pay tribute to other hon. Members who contributed. In particular, the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) delivered a very powerful speech.

There are a great many issues at play around the changes to universal credit and the roll-out in the north-west and further afield. SNP Members are fundamentally concerned about the removal of the work allowance, which underpins the potential success of universal credit and the aim to support people into work and make work pay. We are also concerned about the monthly payment regime. Support for housing benefit recipients will not go directly to landlords, and payments will be made to households, rather than individuals.

[Graham Evans]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Neil Gray]

I will make some progress; I am just starting.

Pilot projects across the country have shown that those areas of concern are problematic. That has been highlighted by a raft of third-sector organisations in reports on this subject. In principle, universal credit sounds tempting. We are told that it is a smooth, streamlined system to assist low-income families. However, as has been emphasised today, in reality it is fraught with flaws, and low-income families are the casualties of the Tories’ poor economic choices and ideologically driven cuts. The ineffective and costly roll-out of the system to date highlights the need for an urgent rethink of these draconian policies.

Universal credit was first introduced as a pathfinder in Ashton-under-Lyne in April 2013. New claims were taken from single unemployed people who satisfied the gateway conditions. The pathfinder was then extended to three other areas in the north-west—Wigan, Warrington and Oldham—in July 2013, and in the summer of 2014 universal credit was expanded to a further 29 areas in the north-west for single people and couples who satisfied the gateway conditions. After a relaxation of the constraints on single people claiming between September and December 2014, universal credit was expanded to cover all parts of the north-west of England. New claims from families with children have been accepted in some areas, and since last January new claims from families with children have been accepted throughout the north-west.

The north-west was the first area in which universal credit was rolled out to all jobcentres. Of the 155,568 claimants at mid-November 2015, 77,378 were in the north-west, and of those, 26,521 were in employment and 50,855 were not in employment.

[Graham Evans]

May I go back to a point that the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) made about treating people like children? The hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) mentioned paying housing benefit directly to the landlord. Are we not treating people like children if we do not think they are able to pay their housing benefit to their landlords? Surely people in receipt of benefits are perfectly capable of paying their landlords.

[Neil Gray]

Actually, I do not accept that.

[Graham Evans]

It is treating them like children.

[Neil Gray]

It is not treating people like children. I totally disagree with that. People in such circumstances often live chaotic lives. Sometimes, although not always, they do not wish to have the responsibility for managing that extra level of financial responsibility. A great many people in my constituency have told me that they would far rather know that they have a roof over their head that is secure regardless of what happens elsewhere, and that they would rather see their benefit paid directly to their landlord. People should be given the choice over that matter, and at the moment they are not. It is being paid to them, and they are being given the responsibility, which is not always welcome.

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[Neil Gray]

Where people are capable of working, it is right that we should encourage them to do so. However, the problem with the changes that the Government are implementing through universal credit is that they are removing the work allowance, which is the only incentive to work in universal credit. It underpins the incentive to get into work and to remain there. Taking that away removes the premise that work should pay, which is a sad situation.

The DWP has said that universal credit will be simpler for claimants and will be treated like a wage for individuals, readying them for work. In reality, there are complex problems that will ultimately see less money in people’s pockets and more difficulties accessing adequate financial support. Analysis of the autumn statement by the IFS found that the benefit system is still much less generous in the long run, pointing out that universal credit now represents an additional cut on top of other changes, including the cut to benefit entitlement, of £3.7 billion a year in the long run. Some 4.5 million working families will be affected by the introduction of universal credit, and 2.6 million will lose an average of £1,600 a year.

This is where I must disagree with the hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) and where he missed the point in his contribution. People are being encouraged into work, which is right for those who can work, but removing the work allowance aspect of universal credit takes away the only incentive to work. He also made the point that the social security system needs to be fair for those who pay for it, but he perhaps forgets that those in receipt of the universal credit work allowance are in work.

[Graham Evans]

They are taxpayers.

[Neil Gray]

Absolutely. They are taxpayers.

Some 1.8 million non-working families will be affected by the introduction of universal credit, and 1.2 million families will lose an average of £1,000 a year. Over recent months, the focus of much discussion has been on tax credits, but changes to universal credit will also have profound effects. The Government’s so-called U-turn on tax credits is nothing more than a delay tactic, with the pain to be felt in the next few years under universal credit. Support for working households on low incomes getting universal credit was also reduced in the summer Budget. Ian Mulheirn of Oxford Economics said that,

“this may be a U-turn in April 2016, but it doesn’t look like a U-turn by 2020.”

In conclusion, the Scottish people voted in May 2015 for an end to austerity when they voted for the SNP. They deserve the leadership they voted for and not to face the social security storm that the Tories are brewing. The failures of the UK Government to give us full power over universal credit have left our country picking up the tab for the Tories’ poor economic choices and shoddy governance once again.

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[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

I will come to people earning more than ever before in a moment. I make no apology for a Government who introduced the national minimum wage or for wage growth in the Labour years. This decade risks becoming the lost Tory decade, with wage growth lower than at any point since the 1920s.

The hon. Gentleman wants to talk about money in people’s pockets. I have already spoken about the effects of the cuts to the universal credit work allowance on single parents from this April, so shall I use some other specific examples? Take a couple, living and working together, one or both of whom has limited capacity to work as they are disabled. For them, the work allowance will be cut from £7,700 to £4,700, a loss in income of £3,000. That is for people who are actually in work. To take another example, single individuals will essentially lose everything, with a reduction of £1,332, at a net loss to income of £865.

When universal credit is damaging and attacking people in work, it is in danger of undermining the aims that it was set up to achieve. If Government Members do not want to take my word for that, let us take the word of the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission’s “State of the nation 2015” policy paper, published on a big date for dumping things just before Christmas, 17 December 2015. The paper is available on the Government website if any Members want to see it. The commission stated:

“The immediate priority must be taking action to ensure that the introduction of Universal Credit does not make families with children who ‘do the right thing’ (in terms of working as much as society expects them to) worse off than they would be under the current system. That means reversing the cuts to Universal Credit work allowances enacted through the Universal Credit (Work Allowance) Amendment Regulations 2015 before they are implemented in April 2016.”

That is what the commission says should be the priority from this April.

[Graham Evans]

The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that the Labour Government introduced the national minimum wage. I supported that outside this place, as did many of my Conservative colleagues. This Government, however, are introducing a national living wage and—this is the key thing, which is lost on the Opposition—are keen for people to keep more of their own money. That is why the personal allowance has increased, taking the lowest-paid out of income tax altogether. He might remember Gordon Brown’s fiasco with the 10p tax rate, which penalised the lowest-paid workers in the country. The system is complicated, yes, but the underlying mantra is that it always pays to work. Getting low-paid people out of tax altogether is the best way of doing things, so that they keep more of their own money.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

I am interested in history, as the hon. Gentleman might know, but I do not recall the Conservative party in the 20th century supporting a national minimum wage. His personal view might well have been different, but I do not recall his party voting for a national minimum wage—rather, at the 1997 election I remember the Conservatives saying that it would cost jobs. They seem to have changed their position significantly since, which is to be welcomed.