Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Helen Jones and Robert Syms

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Syms]

I am certain that the measure will have a different effect on different authorities. We need a little bit more clarity from Ministers: will there be emergency funds that can be drawn on if there is a difficulty in the short term?

Of course, what makes it complicated is the fact that the Government are looking for savings because of the overall economic situation. We have to make savings; we are looking to make savings of £420 million, and that makes things much more difficult. Again, speaking from my experience of local government, it is sometimes in a position to deliver savings, given a chance, but as we have heard in this debate, if there is pressure on council tax and council tax benefits, something will have to give. I therefore have concerns about the Government’s direction of travel, and I hope that the Minister can reassure us that they have thought about what would happen in an emergency.

Clearly, if a local authority has to deal with a reduction and is given maximum flexibility to do so, sometimes it can deal with it, but if it is initially told, “You must protect pensioners,” the impact of the reductions may fall on a smaller number of people. We recently heard exchanges across the Chamber about universal credit; that credit may offset some of that, but that might mean that the non-working faced the worst situations. The issue needs careful thought. I am sure that the Government’s timetable can be kept to, but we have to think very carefully; if lots of new schemes are invented following consultation, some people will get them right, some will get them wrong, and some will over-egg the savings, and that may well have an impact on our communities.

The Library briefing says that the reduction might partly be an incentive for local authorities to create jobs, but I am not sure that local authorities can wave a magic wand and create jobs in six months, a year or two years. Over a period of time, if authorities have active economic development departments, build capacity on industrial estates and try to attract firms, they might be able to have some impact. However, from a practical point of view, when it comes to dealing with the problems that arise when the measures are implemented—and perhaps in the year or two after that, in what we all know will be quite difficult economic circumstances—I do not think that councils have the ability to change the number of people in or out of work in their area. That is a long-term thing, not a short-term change that can be made in months, so I have some concerns.

Poole borough council, my authority, is having to deal manfully with the need for a number of savings; dealing with the measure, on top of that, will be difficult. I hope that we get the scheme right in Poole, but if we do not, I hope that the Government have thought about how they will deal with the consequences.

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to be under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. We have heard hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House express real concerns about how the scheme will work in practice, and particularly about what will happen in authorities with a large number of pensioners. Hon. Friends have spoken about the need to start the scheme on the right basis—a neutral basis—and to ensure that councils are adequately funded for the scheme that they are being asked to bring in.

I want to speak about new clause 11 in particular, which seeks to address some of the real financial risks that are being transferred to local authorities. Many hon. Members will remember that last week we debated clause 3, which changed the requirement to pay a grant to a power to do so. In that debate, as in all our debates so far on the Bill, the Government refused to clarify how they would distribute money, fund local authorities and meet the costs of the duties that they seek to impose on them. That is exactly what the Government are trying to do with the localisation of council tax benefit. We are back to the old game of ensuring that the blame for their cuts is taken elsewhere. New clause 11 attempts to ensure that local authorities are reimbursed for expenses incurred as part of the council tax reduction scheme.

The 10% cut in funding that many hon. Members have referred to, along with protection for pensioners, which the Government rightly want to ensure, means that others will face much larger cuts in their benefit. We will debate many of those issues under the next group of amendments.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Helen Jones and Robert Syms

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Helen Jones]

I am sure that it would benefit many people to take a trip to Stockton-on-Tees, as my hon. Friend suggests. There are certainly many things that the Department for Communities and Local Government could learn from good local authorities, but it has failed to do so. We do not intend to divide the Committee on these amendments, but they show what a shambolic lot those on the Government Front Bench are and how little they have thought through the Bill.

[Mr Syms]

I fully support the Government amendments, because what they propose is sensible when we are moving towards a new system. We are talking about some very large figures, and it takes only a small change in one figure to throw the others out. It is important that local authority finance officers have a clear idea of where they are going with this new system. If there is a recalculation, which we do not expect, will it be perfectly obvious in the information supplied to local authorities? Local authorities will have to set a legal budget, and they will do so based on figures supplied by the Government. If those figures change a little, will the system be sufficiently transparent for local authority treasurers to understand where there has been some adjustment? Otherwise, if it is totally out of the blue and they cannot see the rationale, that will cause more problems than we are solving.

[Robert Neill]

I take my hon. Friend’s sensible point. That is why it will be done, if it is needed, by making a report to the House so that there is proper scrutiny. Local authorities would of course be notified and the basis of any change set out. We would also seek to give any local authority affected appropriate warning informally and through the formal channels here, and there would of course be scope for Members who represent constituencies affected to raise the matter in the House and with Ministers.

I am grateful that the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) deigns to support the amendments but sorry that, in doing so, she has managed to raise churlishness to a new art form, even by her standards. I simply point out that I can scarcely remember a Government Bill in the previous Parliament that did not come with dozens of drafting amendments as it progressed. These things happen, as she knows full well. I am a little surprised and she does herself an injustice by making so needless a point.

Amendment 3 agreed to.

Amendments made: 4, page 16, line 40, at end insert—

‘(8A) Where the original calculations did not show that the Secretary of State was to make a payment to a relevant authority, but the revised calculations show that the Secretary of State is to make a payment to the authority—

(a) the Secretary of State must make that payment to the authority, and

(b) the Secretary of State must make a payment to the authority of an amount equal to the amount of the payment shown by the original calculations as falling to be made by the authority to the Secretary of State.’.

Amendment 5, page 17, line 10, after ‘(6)’ insert ‘or (6A)’.

Amendment 6, page 17, line 18, after ‘(8)’ insert ‘or (8A)’.

Amendment 7, page 19, line 8, at end insert—

‘(4A) Where the relevant previous calculations did not show that a relevant authority was to make a payment to the Secretary of State, but the revised calculations show that the authority is to make a payment to the Secretary of State—

(a) the authority must make that payment to the Secretary of State, and

(b) the authority must make a payment to the Secretary of State of an amount equal to the amount of the payment shown by the relevant previous calculations as falling to be made by the Secretary of State to the authority.’.

Amendment 8, page 19, line 19, at end insert—

‘(6A) Where the relevant previous calculations did not show that the Secretary of State was to make a payment to a relevant authority, but the revised calculations show that the Secretary of State is to make a payment to the authority—

(a) the Secretary of State must make that payment to the authority, and

(b) the Secretary of State must make a payment to the authority of an amount equal to the amount of the payment shown by the relevant previous calculations as falling to be made by the authority to the Secretary of State.’.—(Robert Neill.)

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Jones]

My hon. Friend makes a worthwhile point. The problem with the whole Bill is that it is difficult for local authorities to know the framework in which they will be asked to operate.

We are not proposing anything that would create a long delay, merely a simple system to allow councils time to check the calculations and respond before the Secretary of State issues a final determination. Most local councils support a levy system, even if they have different views about how the levy should be calculated. We do not anticipate that large numbers of councils would challenge decisions merely for the sake of challenging them. However, it is important for any system to give local authorities a mechanism to make representations if they think that the Department has simply got it wrong. I believe that Members from all parts of the House would want their local council to be able to do that if the need arose, to ensure that the communities that they represent are dealt with fairly.

The amendment would not prevent the Government from exercising the powers that they will be given if the Bill is passed. It does not even seek to change the way in which the levy is calculated—or it would not if we knew how the levy was going to be calculated. It is aimed purely and simply at ensuring that there is fairness in the system. I therefore commend it to the Committee.

[Mr Syms]

It would be helpful to have a little more detail as soon as possible on what the Government mean. I hope that, in winding up the debate, the Minister is able to set out a little more detail than we have at the moment.

Clearly, the intention of the proposal is to offset unforeseen falls in rate income in certain areas. By their nature, those falls are unforeseen. Is it the Minister’s intention that the levy on disproportionate gain will be equal to any unforeseen fall in income in certain authorities, or will the Government simply recoup a levy of disproportionate gain even if there has not been an unforeseen fall in council business rate income?

If things were dealt with on an annual basis, there might be a year in which there was not any unforeseen fall, so it might be sensible for a number of local authorities with quite large gains to take a share of the income, whereas in a subsequent year there might be the opposite situation. What I am trying to tease out of the Minister is whether the exercise will be annual or whether it will occur over a period of years. Could a fund be carried forward to cover unforeseen falls in council business rate income? From my reading of the Bill—it would help if there were more information—I believe that the fund is to be exceptional and will affect only a number of authorities. One might think of the developments in Stratford, nuclear power stations, estuarial airports, car plants and so on.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Helen Jones and Robert Syms

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Helen Jones]

I could not agree more with my right hon. Friend. Since I have entered this House, I have learned that the best way to improve legislation is to scrutinise it effectively and listen to those who will have to deal with it when it comes in. If the Government chose to take evidence, they would have ample opportunity to table amendments to the Bill in Committee or on Report.

[Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)]

There are 650 Members of Parliament, many of whom are former councillors. There is a good body of experts in this Chamber. I welcome what the Government are doing. It allows people to have their say.

[Helen Jones]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point. Although he is correct in saying that many of us have been local councillors, I point out to him, with all due deference because this applies to me as well, that many of us were local councillors some time ago and that the system of local government has altered in the time since. It would be beneficial for the House to hear from those who are running local councils now. I sincerely regret that we have not had time to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Jones]

My right hon. Friend is, of course, right. Throughout the Bill, financial risks are transferred to local authorities. The Government set the system but transfer the financial risk elsewhere.

Let me return to the problems with IT systems. Earlier, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) mentioned that only a few firms provide those systems. Interestingly, Capita has sent an e-mail to benefit and council tax managers to set out its concerns about the timing of the system. The manager who sent the e-mail writes:

“I think the most important point to make is that I remain concerned and disappointed that the timetable remains unchanged meaning that primary and secondary legislation will not be passed until the summer / autumn / winter 2012. Without the framework and detailed regulations underpinning both the local schemes and means for ensuring that pensioners now and in the future remain protected or treated equally, it is impossible to commence planning for software changes.”

That is the system with which the Government are expecting local authorities to cope.

There are other changes in the Bill—provisions on tax increment financing, on the rating of empty properties, and on exemptions from the scheme for renewable energy projects—for which local councils need time to plan, adjust their budgets and rethink the way they do things. Those measures require changes to how councils organise themselves and changes to IT systems. Many local authorities are making it clear that they believe the Bill does not give them sufficient time to prepare for those changes.

May I make a suggestion to the Minister—it is meant to be a helpful one? I try to be helpful occasionally even if the Whip is giggling away. Why not run the proposed system as a shadow system for one year to see how it works and iron out the glitches? Why not continue with the old system for a year but give local authorities an indication of what they would have received under the new system? That would allow any problems to be ironed out and the system to work properly.

Above all, the Opposition are saying that Ministers ought to take note of the people who must implement the changes on the ground—the people who collect the rates, who design the systems, who administer council tax benefit and deliver the services. If the Government rush the implementation of the Bill and it all goes wrong, chaos could result. They need to take the opportunity to test the system properly and to think things through. If they insist on introducing this hugely complex system, they need at least to give themselves time to run it properly and ensure that local councils can adapt their systems properly. That is why I have moved amendment 20 today. It might be helpful if I tell the Committee at this point that the Opposition intend to press the amendment to a Division.

[Mr Syms]

I, too, have been an Opposition politician. Opposition politicians often argue that Bills taken on the Floor of the House really ought to be taken in a Public Bill Committee; and when there is a Public Bill Committee, they argue as eloquently as possible that the Bill ought to be taken on the Floor of the House. When Opposition politicians are not sure what to do about a Bill, one thing they say is that it has not been considered for long enough. They then try, as amendment 20 does, to delay the commencement date, because that is a good substitute for hearing their views on such reforms. If they can press an amendment, such as amendment 20, to a Division after a debate, that is very good, because in that way they cannot discuss some of the important issues in, say, schedules 1, 2 and 3. Perhaps we will end today not quite knowing where the Opposition are on some of those issues.

The reality is that we probably have the most centralised system of local government in the western world. The Bill is a step in the right direction for devolving power. Perhaps it does not go far enough, but we will doubtless see as the Committee progresses over its three days what assurances we get from the Minister on the pace at which the Government are going.

I am confident that the Government’s instincts are right. My experience of local government officials is that they must always second-guess central Government. Some are pretty good at it. Rather than prevaricating, if we are to change the system, the sooner we do so, the better. I therefore support my hon. Friend the Minister.