Northern Ireland Troubles

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Tuesday 14th October 2025 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)]

With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to make a statement on the legacy of the troubles, which still hangs heavily over the lives of so many people in Northern Ireland and across the United Kingdom.

The Good Friday agreement—that extraordinary act of political courage—brought peace. Although its architects knew that legacy would have to be dealt with, they were not able to do so. This is therefore the unfinished business of that agreement, and it is why so many—too many—victims and survivors are still waiting for answers about what exactly happened to those whom they loved so much.

The previous Government’s Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 failed to win support in Northern Ireland, failed to comply with our international human rights obligations and was undeliverable. Whatever its intentions, it was no basis for trying to move forward. That is why the Government are today introducing new primary legislation and laying a draft remedial order under the Human Rights Act as we seek to fulfil our King’s Speech commitment to repeal and replace the legacy Act. This legislation will give effect to the framework that I announced with the Irish Government on 19 September, which reflects the principles of the Stormont House agreement and contains sovereign commitments by both the UK and Irish Governments.

The new troubles Bill will reform the independent commission, to be renamed the legacy commission, giving it statutory oversight to provide accountability and confidence, and—learning from Operation Kenova—a statutory victims and survivors advisory group. It will significantly strengthen the governance of the commission, with two co-directors of investigations, statutory conflict of interest duties, and appointments made only following independent advice. It will enhance the investigative powers of the commission and put in place a fairer disclosure regime, ensuring that the commission has the powers that it needs to find answers for families and can make public the maximum possible information, consistent with the state’s responsibility to protect life and national security.

The Bill will fulfil the commitment that we have made to restore the small number of troubles-related inquests that were stopped in their tracks by the legacy Act, and refer the other inquests that had not yet commenced to the Solicitor General for independent consideration of whether, in each case, they are dealt with most appropriately by the reformed legacy commission or via the coronial system. It will enable the reformed commission to hold new proceedings in cases that are transferred to it from the coronial system. Consistent with the provisions in the Inquiries Act 2005, that will provide for public hearings, the consideration of sensitive information in closed hearings, and effective next-of-kin participation, including participation through legal representation.

We will also address in the Bill, rather than in the remedial order, the UK Supreme Court ruling in the Adams interim custody order case regarding the application of the Carltona principle. We must put beyond doubt Parliament’s intention by clarifying the fact that the relevant legislation allowed such orders to be made by junior Ministers as well as by the Secretary of State.

We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the 250,000 Northern Ireland veterans who served with honour and distinction to keep people safe, and who worked with the police and other emergency services in the most difficult circumstances imaginable. Their service and their sacrifice will never be forgotten. That is why, having worked closely with the Defence Secretary and the Armed Forces Minister, the Government are introducing strong safeguards for veterans that respond directly to the concerns that have been expressed to us. Those safeguards will also apply to other people, such as former police officers. They will mean that no witnesses will need to travel to Northern Ireland to engage with legacy mechanisms. They will have a right to do so remotely, because coroners and judges in the commission will be legally required to allow it, and support for veterans will be available to assist them in that regard. The commission will be under a duty not to duplicate aspects of any previous investigations unless there are compelling reasons that make it essential. The welfare of veterans will be given proper consideration as part of any assessment of whether they are required to give evidence, and that will include the right of veterans to seek anonymity when doing so.

Our protections will not be limited to legislation. Any contact with veterans will be facilitated through the Ministry of Defence, protecting veterans from cold calling, and veterans will not be required to rehearse the historical context surrounding incidents when such information can be obtained from other sources, including the Ministry of Defence. These measures will provide what the three UK veterans’ commissioners have called for: not immunity from the law, but fairness under it.

The remedial order, which I am also laying today, will remove the last Government’s much-criticised immunity scheme, which offered false promises, was never introduced, and would have enabled those who had committed the most appalling terrorist crimes to be granted immunity from prosecution—the principal reason why the Act was so strongly opposed in Northern Ireland—and it will lift the current prohibition on troubles-related civil proceedings.

I am grateful to the Tánaiste, Simon Harris, and his team for their open and constructive approach in reaching the framework agreement, which recognises that helping families affected by the troubles is a shared responsibility. That is why the joint framework contains specific and unprecedented commitments by the Irish Government to facilitate the fullest possible co-operation of the Irish authorities with a reformed legacy commission, to establish a dedicated unit within An Garda Síochána to deal with troubles-related cases, which will include investigating all outstanding cases in Ireland, and to make a financial contribution of €25 million to help fund legacy mechanisms. That is, of course, in addition to the £250 million already committed by the UK Government. Where required, legislation will be introduced by the Irish Government to implement those commitments. We are also establishing with the Irish Government an independent commission on information retrieval—initially on a pilot basis—to give families an additional means of obtaining information.

Since my appointment last year, I have had many discussions with political parties, victims and survivors organisations, human rights groups, veterans and others affected by the troubles. Given the views held by so many people—often diametrically opposed—it was always going to be impossible to set out a plan that gives everyone everything that they want. There will be elements of our approach that some people will welcome and others will not. I also recognise that, because of what has gone before, there is a great lack of trust in all of us in the House on the part of victims and survivors. That is, unfortunately, the reality; but it is not, and it never has been, an argument for not trying to find a way forward. I hope that those who want to see a fair and effective approach to legacy that can command greater support in Northern Ireland will recognise that these measures represent fundamental reform, and that they will therefore be given a chance to succeed.

Time waits for no one, least of all for the many families who lost loved ones, and they, ultimately, will be the judge of whether these new arrangements can give them the answers that they have sought for so long. I hope that we will together be able to grasp this opportunity, and so help the people of Northern Ireland to look to a future freer of the burden of the past. I commend this statement to the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement.

The last Government legislated to draw a line under troubles-era litigation. That litigation was inevitably weighted against those who sought to protect our country from terrorism. It was inevitably weighted against those who keep records, and whose servicemen are easy to locate and contact. Even today, vexatious claims are being made. Only last week a judicial review of a 1991 case was rightly thrown out by the High Court in Belfast. The judge described the challenge as “utterly divorced from…reality”, but not before the former special forces soldier at the centre of it had had to endure four years of investigation. Mindful of cases such as this, the last Government sought to draw a line. Through their actions today this Government are erasing that line, and as they do so, many former servicemen will again feel, with profound unease, that the lawyers are coming. I hope the House will spare a thought for them this afternoon.

I know we will have a lot of time to debate the legislation that the Government are laying, but there are a number of specific questions that I would like to ask the Secretary of State. First, on the resumption of inquests, will he tell the House how many inquests will be restored and how many will be referred to the Solicitor General? Can he specifically tell the House whether that list will include the 1987 Loughgall case?

Secondly, civil cases are to reopen. It is thought that at the time of prohibition, many hundreds of such cases—affecting perhaps thousands of people—were before the Belfast courts. What is the Northern Ireland Office’s calculation of the number of civil cases that are now likely to proceed? I ask that because there are clear financial consequences to reopening legacy in this way. The Secretary of State referred to the £250 million already committed—indeed, it was committed by the last Government to deal with the legacy as we framed it—but it is now clear that the new legacy commission is to have a much bigger remit than the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery. If so, will its budget be increased? If not, how will it be expected to function?

Similarly, the Police Service of Northern Ireland has raised very serious concerns about the amount of money that it will need to support reopened inquests and civil cases. Policy Exchange has placed the cost on the police at around £90 million, at a time when police numbers in Northern Ireland are at an all-time low. There is a very real prospect that without additional funding from the Secretary of State, frontline policing in Northern Ireland will be further reduced. Can the Secretary of State make a commitment that that will not happen?

Thirdly, the Government have today briefed journalists that legislation will ban Gerry Adams from receiving compensation for his detention in the 1970s, but the Secretary of State’s statement made no reference to that. Can he tell the House unequivocally that Mr Adams will not receive one penny of compensation?

Fourthly, the Secretary of State listed a number of protections for veterans in court, but it is already the case that anonymity, age-related considerations and remote hearings are available at the discretion of the court. That was apparent to the Tánaiste on 19 September, when he emphasised that no new protections would be available to veterans. Does the Secretary of State agree with Mr Harris? There has also been some confusion about whether these protections will extend to paramilitaries. On 25 September, the Prime Minister claimed that they will not. Can the Secretary of State be definitive for the House?

Lastly, there is the question of the involvement of the Republic of Ireland in legacy. This has proved deeply controversial, and I am sure that the Secretary of State will be asked questions about it this afternoon. However, I was interested to see that the Republic has made commitments to get the Garda to investigate unresolved troubles-related incidents within its jurisdiction, and to legislate to enable the fullest possible co-operation of the relevant Irish authorities with the legacy commission. If that is to happen, it is to be welcomed, because during the troubles the UK repeatedly sought extraditions from the Republic to bring terrorist charges. In the vast majority of cases, they were turned down.

Following 1998, the former Irish Justice Minister, Michael McDowell, said that the Irish Government gave a de facto amnesty to the IRA. Indeed, there are many instances of possible collusion between the Garda and the Provisional IRA, which have never received the attention they deserve: Kingsmill, the murder of Ian Sproule, Bloody Friday, Teebane, La Mon—the list goes on. I sincerely hope that the Republic will now engage sincerely, deeply and honestly, and I hope the Secretary of State will ensure that it does.

[Hilary Benn]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his response. He says that the last Government sought to draw a line, but it did not work. In the act of seeking to do that—this is the one question that the now Opposition have never been able to answer—they decided that they would give terrorists immunity from prosecution. [Hon. Members: “No, they didn’t!”] Yes, that is what the last Government did, and I have never heard a justification. [Hon. Members: “No, they didn’t!”] Yes, they did, and it did not work. It did not have support in Northern Ireland. How can Northern Ireland proceed to deal with the legacy of the troubles, when the legislation that the last Government passed had no support in Northern Ireland?

To answer the hon. Gentleman’s specific questions, nine inquests will be restored and the remaining 24 will go into the sifting process. Those nine inquests will include Loughgall, because the Conservative Attorney General ordered a new inquest into Loughgall 10 years ago—a point never referred to by the Opposition. It was one of the cases that had begun, and it therefore falls within the group that will be restored. The rest will be considered by the Solicitor General in the sifting process. The number of civil cases will depend on those who choose to bring them or resume them.

On the PSNI, I say to the hon. Gentleman that prior to 1 May last year, the force had over 1,000 cases on its books, and that is no longer the case. The legacy commission, which the UK Government are funding, is now responsible for looking at all cases referred to it. That cost is borne by the UK Government and not by the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland. To the extent that cases are no longer inquests but will go to the commission, the cost will be borne by the UK Government and not by the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland.

On the issue of interim custody orders, as I indicated to the House a moment ago, the legislation will make it clear that the signing of those orders by junior Ministers was always lawful, but we have also decided, in placing a draft remedial order before the House today, that sections 46 and 47 of the legacy Act will now remain in place until the provisions of the Bill take effect. That will deal with the point that some people have made about avoiding a gap, but we all have to recognise that sections 46 and 47 proved to be an ineffective way of dealing with this issue—the hon. Gentleman smiles, but he knows that that is the case.

On the protections we have brought in for veterans, we have done so with the motivation of protecting veterans. On the involvement of the Republic of Ireland, I join the hon. Gentleman—a point of unity at the end—in welcoming the commitment of the Irish Government to this partnership. The history of Northern Ireland teaches us that a lot of progress is made when the two guarantors of the Good Friday agreement work together, and many people in Northern Ireland would like to get answers from the Garda and the Irish authorities. At the moment, the Irish Government are refusing to co-operate. Why? Because of the last Government’s legacy Act. I look forward to the Irish Government participating in the process in the months and years ahead.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

I call the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

[Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)]

I am pleased to see from the joint framework that the Government have listened to some of the key concerns voiced by stakeholders during my Committee’s inquiry into legacy. Those stakeholders will no doubt want to study the detail of the proposals that my right hon. Friend is publishing today. To that end, what consultation have the Government had with victims and survivors groups since the joint framework was announced, and in what ways has this informed the legislation laid today?

[Hilary Benn]

The legislation is about to be published, but in the 14 months since I took up this post, I have had many conversations with families, victims, and the other organisations and groups that I listed in my statement. The Bill that the House will see is the result of that process of discussion, listening, drafting and attempting to respond—not in a way that will please everyone—to the mess that this Government were left by the last Government, who passed a piece of legislation that did not work, did not have support and was found by the courts not to be compatible with our obligations in a number of respects. The question now for all those groups, having seen the framework agreement that we have reached with the Irish Government, is: do they feel that the legislation gives effect to that, and will it enable Northern Ireland to move forward in dealing with these really intractable problems?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

[Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. As this is my first statement as the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for Northern Ireland, I want to begin by recognising the deep scars left by the troubles on families and communities across the island of Ireland and these islands. The pain, loss and legacy of that conflict remain deeply felt to this day.

Although the Liberal Democrats welcome the recent agreement between the British and Irish Governments, the true test of this deal will lie in the detail of the legislation that follows. The Government’s stated intention—to promote an honest attempt at reconciliation and to draw a line under decades of division—is one that every Member of this House can understand. Victims’ families deserve truth, justice and closure. Equally, our veterans deserve and must be afforded fairness and protection from injustice. As the Secretary of State has said, the legacy Act, introduced by the Conservatives, failed to gain the support of any of the parties in Stormont, victims groups or the Irish Government. This lack of consensus speaks volumes but is not loud enough, it seems, for His Majesty’s official Opposition.

I look forward to examining the contents of the new Bill in detail and to tabling constructive amendments. My party will engage fully with the Government, as lasting reconciliation depends on transparency, fairness and independent oversight. That means an effective information retrieval body with statutory disclosure powers, meaningful participation for victims, and safeguards to uphold both justice and compassion for veterans and victims alike.

I have three questions for the Secretary of State. First, how will this Bill ensure that reconciliation is not imposed from above, but built from the ground up? Secondly, based on the many meetings my party has had with veterans and their representatives, what specific safeguards will the Government include to ensure fairness, proportionality and proper protections for those who serve with integrity? Lastly, how will this Government ensure that prosecution under the law, or the possibility of it, can never be used to harm, oppress or discredit those who fought for our country, regardless of the final verdict?

[Hilary Benn]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new role, and I genuinely look forward to working with him on these and other matters, given his interest in Northern Ireland, which is shared right across the House.

Let me turn to his three specific questions. First, no legislation can enable people to feel reconciled in some way to what happened. In the end, reconciliation has to come from within. The title “reconciliation” will not be in the new name of the legacy commission, because it is a consequence of a process that we are trying to put in place, if families can find answers. I urge the House to concentrate on that, because that is what this is all about—trying to enable families to find answers. Secondly, I did draw attention to the safeguards in my statement, and when the Bill is published later, the hon. Gentleman will be able to see how they are given legal expression.

Lastly, on the hon. Gentleman’s point about prosecution, I would simply say that people have made one or two comments in these discussions about politically motivated prosecutions or vexatious prosecutions. I think it is very important that the House upholds the integrity and independence of the prosecutorial authorities. A fundamental bedrock of our legal system is that independent prosecutors make such decisions, and to suggest that they are in any way politically motivated is in my view profoundly mistaken.

[Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)]

I pay tribute to the Secretary of State, the Defence Secretary and the Minister for the Armed Forces for working so hard to achieve this new phase of the peace settlement in Northern Ireland. As we celebrate peace starting in the middle east, this statement is a reminder of how long it takes to build peace and how important justice is for peace. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that by shutting down investigations, including into the deaths of more than 200 Operation Banner soldiers, without an adequate alternative, the unlawful legacy Act failed so many families and victims of the troubles, and the mess had to be undone?

[Hilary Benn]

I thank my hon. Friend for her question, but above all for her great service in the Northern Ireland Office. It was a real pleasure to work with her, and she did so much during her time in the Department.

I do agree with my hon. Friend, because those service families want to find answers. Some time ago, I met the family of Tony Harrison, who served and was murdered in Belfast. His mother and his brother told me how outraged they were by the legacy Act, because it proposed that those who had killed her son could get immunity from prosecution. It is so important that we put that misguided approach on one side, so that all families—service families and others—can find answers.

[Sir Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

It is worth remembering that most victims are not in a group, are not in the media and are not taking action; they just want to know what happened to their loved ones. As we debate the forthcoming legislation, I hope we can all collectively remember that, because investigations are key to delivering for those families.

I want to ask the Secretary of State two specific questions. First, there is some concern that there will be protection for combatants who may have been involved in rapes and other sexual activity. Could he look at that as the Bill proceeds to make sure that victims are able to talk and have protections, as those ex-combatants have? Secondly, what thought has he given to a change of Government in the south should Sinn Féin take power, and to the delivery of the Irish contribution and commitments in such a scenario?

[Hilary Benn]

I am grateful, as ever, to the right hon. Gentleman for his wise words, and I once again pay tribute to the distinguished role he played in trying to move forward some of these and many other Northern Ireland questions during his time as Secretary of State.

On the latter point, it is not for me to speculate on what is going to happen as a result of the decisions of the Irish electorate. The current coalition Government have given a commitment, and this partnership was two Governments coming together, each making sovereign commitments and promising to carry them out in their own jurisdictions. I think it is a hugely significant moment, because we have to go back 11 years to the last such time, when the last Government were able to reach agreement with the Irish Government in the form of the Stormont House agreement.

On the first question, when the right hon. Gentleman sees the Bill, he will see that we are making changes to allow some other matters to be investigated, because I am conscious of the point he has raised.

[Katrina Murray (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch) (Lab)]

I welcome the statement and the progress made by both this Government and the Government of the Republic of Ireland. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) said, we on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee have heard of the heartbreak of many of those who lost loved ones over the course of the troubles, and regardless of the background of those loved ones, they deserve answers.

The response we have consistently received is that Operation Kenova is an example of good practice—that many of those in the island of Ireland are too close to this matter, and bringing in suitably qualified individuals from other parts of the UK should be considered as part of any process. Can I ask the Secretary of State if that has been considered in the new Bill?

[Hilary Benn]

I would make two points. First, as I have alluded to, we have drawn on the experience of Operation Kenova, in that the Bill will create a statutory victims and survivors advisory group to ensure that, in the way it goes about its work, the commission takes account of victims and survivors, and that will include a representative of those who served the state during the troubles.

On the second point, we are putting together much tougher statutory provisions in place relating to conflicts of interest. That is why there will be two directors of investigation—one will have experience of investigating cases in Northern Ireland, the other will not—which will address the concerns some families have about who will be looking into their case. We should not forget that, despite the nearly 100 cases that the commission is currently investigating, which I welcome, far too many families in Northern Ireland have said that they will not be going anywhere near the commission. Part of the purpose of what we are seeking to do is to build confidence on the part of more families in Northern Ireland to go to the commission and get answers.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

First, I welcome the Minister to his place and to the Department, and I welcome the new shadow spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats. I personally thank the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson) for the role she played in her time in the Northern Ireland Office.

That the announcement with the Irish Government was made during a House of Commons recess, one could consider as cynical; that we stand here today during a statement on legislation that has yet to be introduced, and therefore we have no detail on, as disgraceful; and the suggestion that the Irish Government have committed to legislate at all as entirely fanciful—they have not. But the detail we do have is that the Secretary of State wishes for the Solicitor General to be the person to carry out the sifting process on whether cases should go to inquest through the coronial system or to the legacy commission.

In Northern Ireland, we have an Advocate General. The Advocate General is England and Wales’s Attorney General. I am clear in my mind that Richard Hermer would be wholly inappropriate to have his hands anywhere near cases touching on the legacy of the past, given how he has conflicted himself. Will the Secretary of State indicate: has the Attorney General of this country recused himself from this process? Has he, as Secretary of State, decided to exclude the Attorney General from this process? Is he legislating in a way that will exclude every Attorney General from this process, or is it just Richard Hermer?

[Hilary Benn]

I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that I am sorry to have heard what he has just said in relation to very substantial proposals contained in the framework document. I grant him that the Bill will be published shortly, and he will have a chance to read it. I have been accused of many things in my time in public life but being cynical is not one of them, so that is a first. The truth about the announcement of the framework—[Interruption.] Well, it may be the beginning of a number of such accusations, but I will leave that to others who want to take the debate in that particular direction.

The framework was announced when it was because it is a joint framework between two Governments and that means there had to be a negotiation about when it came out, but I did undertake to Mr Speaker at the time that I would come to the House as quickly as possible to make a statement. I laid a written ministerial statement in the House yesterday, and I came today at the first available opportunity with Members here, bearing in mind the Whip we had yesterday, to subject what had agreed to scrutiny.

I have every confidence in the Solicitor General, and I am sure she will do an excellent job in sifting these cases against three criteria, which will be laid out in statute. The first will be about the impact that sensitive information will have on the ability of inquests to actually complete the case. The second will be speed—time waits for no one. The third will be the view of those who are involved in the cases, including families.

[Alex Baker (Aldershot) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, and I welcome the Government’s focus on a protections package for veterans. Last week, I met David, Ishbel and Gary from Yateley and Hawley Royal British Legion, who do an excellent job supporting veterans in my community. We discussed the new veterans protection package announced by the Government, including the protections against repeated investigations. Many veterans from my constituency served courageously for our nation in very, very difficult conditions and they asked me to raise a number of questions on behalf of veterans who served in Northern Ireland. How will the Government ensure that the protections are absolutely watertight in practice, so that veterans are not subjected to repeated, distressing investigations in old age? What steps are being taken with the Irish Government and other partners to ensure that accountability and justice are applied consistently and fairly on all sides?

[Hilary Benn]

I thank my hon. Friend for her question. She is such a strong advocate for the many veterans she represents. I encourage her to look at the legislation to see the nature of the legislative commitments to give effect to the veterans’ protections. There will be a couple that will not be in legislation because they are entirely in our own hands, agreeing a protocol with the commission to ensure that there is no cold calling.

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome my new deputy, the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Matthew Patrick) to the House. It is very remiss of me not to have done so. This is the first chance we have had to sit together on the Front Bench. I pay tribute to the Minister for the Armed Forces, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns), from the Ministry of Defence, who has played a really important and significant role in putting the protections in place. I note that Lieutenant General Sir Nick Pope, the chair of the Confederation of Service Charities, has said that the Confederation

“welcomes the development of the safeguards that have been put in place to offer protection to those within the armed forces community who are affected by legacy issues.”

I, too, welcome that recognition of what we have done.

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)]

Obviously the devil lies in the detail in these things, and never more so than in Northern Ireland. Before the Bill comes eventually before us, we really cannot say for certain whether it is good, bad or indifferent, as is often the case.

I will raise two points. First, I will mention the agreement—I find it a little wishy-washy—over Ireland’s role in all this, which, as has been said by my hon. Friends, has a huge amount of history attached to it, given that Ireland has previously refused to hand over people who really were guilty of the most vexatious, disgusting attacks on civilians and soldiers. It does seem to me rather peculiar. We will wait and see what that actually means. Ireland says it is committed—I would love to see what that commitment actually means.

Secondly, I will mention vexatious prosecutions. The note we have here talks about protection from repeated investigations

“unless there are compelling reasons to do so”.

My concern with things like that is that they are little hooks that allow development through legislation, instead of being powerful tools to do what the Secretary of State says. I therefore urge him right now to be very clear when this legislation comes forward that this cannot be broken through and to tie down the definition of “compelling”.

[Hilary Benn]

I note the right hon. Gentleman’s point about the past, and I am not going to dissent from what he said, but this is an attempt to move beyond the past and the history and to move forward to something that is better. In the end, people will judge the commitments that this Government and the Irish Government have made, but the deal has been signed in good faith, and we are committed to doing what we promised to do.

The commission was established by the previous Government, after all, and I took the decision not to abolish it, but to reform it. Many people criticised that—they wanted it scrapped completely and for us to start again, but I thought that would have been a mistake, because time waits for no one. We would have wasted all the money and stopped the investigations that are taking place, which are really important to the families. Every single investigation is important to every single family, because each is about the death of a loved one.

I am sure we will debate the specifics of the legislation at length in the House. The state has a duty, of course, to properly investigate cases where it has been involved in a death. The right hon. Gentleman is well aware of that. It is a duty that all of us should uphold.

[Claire Hanna (Belfast South and Mid Down) (SDLP)]

I thank the Secretary of State and his team for their work on this package, including the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson), who was so well regarded by everybody who came across her in Northern Ireland. I also thank the officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin for their work, because that partnership is vital to moving forward.

The Social Democratic and Labour party acknowledges the progress in this package if it is faithfully captured in the legislation. When we push for more and better, please know that that comes from a sincere and long-held determination to get this right for families, survivors and our society as a whole. Despite some opinions to the contrary, including recently, I do not believe that most people believe that any murder in Northern Ireland was justified, inevitable, useful or worthy of cover-up, and perpetuating those narratives is an enormous challenge for the present and the future, too.

Does the Secretary of State agree that all the work invested by families, campaigners and his officials will be worth nothing if those who created victims—whether republican or loyalist paramilitaries or the state forces who assisted them—do not approach this with full transparency and disclosure and put honesty and the needs of victims over the needs of their own narratives?

[Hilary Benn]

My hon. Friend gives me the opportunity to pay tribute to my extraordinary officials, some of whom are present today. It has been the privilege of my life to work with them on this. I know that my hon. Friend will hold us to the highest standards, and I accept what she says in the spirit in which it is offered. As I indicated to the House earlier, I want there to be maximum provision of information to families, but we must also acknowledge that any and all Governments have responsibilities for the security of the state and to protect life, and this Government will uphold both.

[Dr Al Pinkerton (Surrey Heath) (LD)]

I welcome the hon. Member for Wirral West (Matthew Patrick) to his ministerial position, and I welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr Kohler) to his new place as spokesperson—frankly the best job anybody could have in opposition.

I have spent the summer speaking to veterans about the vital commitment they need to feel that the process of prosecution does not become persecution. While many of those veterans recognise that they went to Northern Ireland in order to restore the rule of law and think that they should be subject to the laws of this land, they none the less remain incredibly anxious about the possibility that the process of prosecution becomes persecution. Has the Secretary of State had the official backing of any veterans group for the approach that he has taken? Separately, has he had any assurances from the Republic of Ireland Government that they will, as a result of the publication of this Bill, drop the inter-state case against the United Kingdom?

[Hilary Benn]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the role he played as Liberal Democrat spokesperson for Northern Ireland. The truth is that with the passage of time, the possibility of prosecution becomes increasingly remote. We all know that to be the case. Most of the families I have met—not all, but most—have said, “I know that no one is going to be held to account through the judicial process, but I just want to know what happened. That’s what I want.” It causes such pain and grief that that answer cannot be provided. It really is difficult.

As far as the Irish Government are concerned, I believe that they will honour the promises they have made. This partnership with the Irish Government is a significant moment, because moving from non-co-operation to co-operation will open up the possibility for more information to come to families. The inter-state case is a matter for the Irish Government, but I am very clear of one thing, which is that the last legacy Act created circumstances in which the law that was not compatible with our international obligations, and that is the basis of the inter-state case. The legislation I am bringing before the House will fix that and deal with it, and in those circumstances the inter-state case will no longer have a basis.

[Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement today, particularly his focus on answers, which are what people want. As someone who lost a friend, Tim Parry, when he was murdered by the IRA in 1993, I know exactly how important it is for families and everyone who knows victims to get the answers that they deserve. The agreement is vital in getting the process moving again so that victims and families can get those answers. How will the Secretary of State continue that work with families and victims both during the process of the legislation and afterwards to make sure that answers remain at the heart of what the Government are trying to achieve?

[Hilary Benn]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said. I spoke yesterday to the victims’ commissioner in Northern Ireland. On 19 September when the framework was published, the Tánaiste and I met the victims and survivors forum in Northern Ireland and explained what the framework seeks to do. I made a commitment to the victims’ commissioner yesterday that I will come back to meet the victims and survivors forum once it has had a chance to look at the legislation to find out what it thinks.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

In the interests of trying to solve this issue, I wish the Secretary of State well and hope that he will bring forward the Bill and deal with its progress in the spirit of compromise and co-operation between the parties to find the best landing spot possible. He mentioned good faith, which is a precious resource that is often in short supply when it comes to this issue. I think it would be helpful if he works vigorously with the Irish Government to get them to ascertain at speed and pace what, if any, legislative measures they require to make good on what they have committed to, and could he as best as possible work those two pieces of legislation in lockstep to give confidence to both sides, who have concerns when it comes to good faith—or rather the absence of it?

[Hilary Benn]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for what he said. I hope he knows that I will do anything and everything I can to try to find a way forward, in partnership with as many Members of the House as possible. For a long period of time, this question has been subject to the bipartisanship which, in the main, has characterised relations between the parties in the House on matters to do with Northern Ireland. I recognise that there are disagreements in relation to one aspect of what we are putting forward; that does not mean that we cannot work together on the others.

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about the importance of seeing the legislation required in Ireland to give effect to the proposals. I was standing next to the Tánaiste when he made it quite clear—to give an example—that he would ensure legislation was in place to deal with the commitment to enable witnesses to give evidence to the Omagh public inquiry before the hearings resume in March. That seems to be an important example of good faith.

[Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)]

I suppose that the Secretary of State will forgive some of us for being cautious before we are ready to believe that the Government, the state and any paramilitary organisation will give over the information that is required. In fact, right now there are families across the road in the Supreme Court in legal dispute with the Government because the Government are withholding information from them. We know that there is a pattern.

When it comes to inquests, will the Secretary of State look again at the sifting process? Will he give family views primacy when it comes to deciding which cases will have an inquest? Will he drop his proposal to give himself the power to appoint judges in that inquisitorial mechanism? The important principle of the independence of the judiciary needs to be held up.

[Hilary Benn]

On inquests, there are three statutory tests that the Solicitor General will have to apply. In answer to an earlier question, I indicated what they are. Family views will be one of the considerations, but if inquests cannot proceed because of sensitive information, would it not be more sensible to put it into the commission, which can deal with sensitive information, because it has provision for closed hearings?

No doubt my hon. Friend will make the point about appointment processes when we come to discuss the Bill. However, on the agreement on the information-retrieval mechanism, I point out—this is also relevant to the point made by the Opposition—that that was negotiated by the previous Conservative Government and the Irish Government, and it formed part of the Stormont House agreement. What is the purpose of it? It is to enable those who have information to pass it to the body, which can then pass it to the families, and that information will be a protected disclosure, which is not the same as immunity.

That system has worked well through the independent commission for the location of victims’ remains in recovering quite a number of the remains of those who were abducted, tortured, murdered and buried by the IRA. I hope that it is a step forward in going back to what was agreed at Stormont House by the previous Government, the Irish Government and the political parties—well, not all of them—and will be welcomed on all sides.

[Sorcha Eastwood (Lagan Valley) (Alliance)]

The Secretary of State referred to this as unfinished business. In the last statement, we heard about the successes of the peace process in Northern Ireland. I was 12 years old when the Good Friday agreement was signed; I now stand here 40 years of age as the MP for Lagan Valley, and my constituents deserve truth and justice as much as anybody else.

We have heard a lot today about veterans. My family were part of that cohort. They proudly served, along with many others. They do not want an amnesty. They do not want immunity. They do not want equivocation with terrorists, which was proposed by the outgoing Government.

We hear about people in Northern Ireland who were in the wrong place at the wrong time whenever they died. They were not; it was the terrorists who were in the wrong place, doing the wrong work. We must send out a clear signal, no matter what our political opinion, that terrorism was wrong in the past and is wrong now. Will the Secretary of State give me his guarantee that he will discuss that with the Northern Ireland Executive and my ministerial colleagues to ensure that those families who so rightfully deserve truth and justice have the resource to be able to get that?

[Hilary Benn]

May I say to the hon. Member that I agree with every single word that she has expressed so powerfully and forcefully? I encourage those who have been chuntering from a sedentary position during the course of these exchanges to reflect on her point that there are many people who say they do not want immunity and they certainly object to it being given to those who committed the most appalling crimes.

Voices in Northern Ireland really need to be listened to. The failure to do that, including under the last legacy Act, is why I made the point that there has been a terrible lack of trust in politicians over a long period of time. I will not make a party point, but there is a terrible lack of trust in politicians because there have been attempts before and they have not worked. We have to try to make this work, and I have already begun the process of talking to the hon. Member’s colleagues in the Northern Ireland Executive.

[Jo White (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

Following the last question, I want to say that the Tory’s immunity system would have meant immunity for the perpetrators of terrorist crimes across the UK. Our domestic courts have determined that. Does the Secretary of State agree that this Government have no choice but to rectify the situation?

[Hilary Benn]

I agree with my hon. Friend, who makes the point extremely forcefully. It did not work and it was never deliverable. There never was immunity; it was a false promise made to veterans who were badly let down and badly served by the last Government. Whoever won the election last year would have had to deal with the mess that we have inherited, and that is what we seek to do.

[David Davis (Goole and Pocklington) (Con)]

In March of this year, it was widely reported that the Secretary of State gave his word to Mairead Kelly, the sister of IRA murderer Patrick Kelly, that there would be an inquest on the Loughgall incident. Is this remedial order a fulfilment of that promise? If so, it means that 30 years on, the Government are dragging veterans into court over an operation that stopped eight heavily armed IRA murderers—men who had already killed and who were on their way to kill again, with weapons that had been used in 40 previous murders.

Let us be clear: by stopping the attack, those soldiers prevented the murder of many more innocent Northern Ireland citizens. What justice is served by punishing those brave soldiers with a stressful and unnecessary process? The hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Dr Pinkerton) described it as a persecution, punishing them for doing nothing more than their duty. Is this really what the Secretary of State intends?

[Hilary Benn]

The fact is that this Government were elected on a commitment. There was a lot of opposition to the ending of inquests under the legacy Act—maybe not from the right hon. Gentleman but from a lot of people in Northern Ireland. The Government came in committed to restoring the inquests that had started and were stopped. The reason that I said what I said is because Loughgall, as I have already indicated to the shadow Secretary of State, is one of those nine cases.

It is for the independent coronial system to take a decision about that, but one of the factors that coroners have to take into account is how they will deal with any sensitive information that is provided. We know from other inquests that there have been a number of cases when the coroner has said that they accept that the information cannot see the light of day. They have examined the public interest immunity certificate and have reached the conclusion that they cannot take the case any further. In those circumstances, the sensible thing would be for cases to move into the commission, where sensitive information can be considered.

[Dr Lauren Sullivan (Gravesham) (Lab)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment to new protections for veterans. Will he update the House on the discussions that he and Ministry of Defence Ministers have had with veterans and their representative groups about the measures?

[Hilary Benn]

The Minister for the Armed Forces, the Defence Secretary and I have had many such discussions. The measures that I have announced that will be contained in the Bill and the other non-legislative measures are the result of those discussions. We have listened very carefully to the concerns expressed by veterans and we have come forward with what we think is a fair, reasonable and balanced package of measures that will provide protection while also taking forward our responsibility to enable families, including forces families, to find answers.

[Stuart Anderson (South Shropshire) (Con)]

I am against the repealing of the legacy Act, and I served in Northern Ireland. As I am now doing in opposition, I raised when we were in government the major concern and dishonour when none of those on the Labour Benches had the decency to come to this House and debate all the points the Minister is making now. They let the legislation go through, but it is recorded in Hansard that very few people bothered to come to the Chamber to debate it when we took it through the House.

I want to make two quick points on the support for veterans. First, you have spoken about the process they will have to go through; I want to know what support will be available, as you have mentioned. Secondly, given that the terrorists did not keep records but the British Army did, how will you ensure fairer disclosure throughout the process?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. I remind Members not to refer to “you”, as that means me.

[Hilary Benn]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for his point. Support is available for veterans through the Ministry of Defence, and the Armed Forces Minister is very committed to making sure that veterans get all the support they need, which is in part reflected in the package we have announced.

On disclosure, we are making a number of changes, including amending the definition of “sensitive information” so that it is not designated by virtue of the body that held it. That is one of the reasons why the courts found that the disclosure arrangements were not compatible with our commitments. The Secretary of State will have to conduct a balancing exercise on what should be disclosed; the Secretary of State will be required to give reasons for any decision not to disclose, to the extent that that does not risk harm to national security; and, of course, any decision that the Secretary of State makes can be subject to judicial review.

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement and for the way he and the Minister for the Armed Forces have engaged on this matter in recent months. I have many constituent veterans in Sunderland Central who served with distinction in Operation Banner; the Secretary of State rightly praised the professionalism and service of our armed forces in that operation, and I welcome the protections he has set out today. May I press him a bit more on the need for continuing work with veterans groups, so that as the protections are being implemented there will be a process of ongoing review to ensure that they provide effective protection from vexatious lawfare?

[Hilary Benn]

I am very happy to give my hon. Friend that assurance. We have made these commitments because we want them to work, and the Government are determined to ensure that that is the case.

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

On that assurance from the Secretary of State about the protections for veterans, on 19 September he stood beside the Irish Government when he made this announcement, and later that evening the Tánaiste, Simon Harris, went on Irish media and clearly said that there were no added protections for veterans in the legacy deal. Will the Secretary of State give assurance to the House: are there protections for veterans in this legacy deal, or not?

[Hilary Benn]

When the hon. Gentleman sees the legislation, he will see that the protections that we have said will be backed by legislation are in the legislation. In addition to that, there are the provisions relating to cold calling and on not requiring veterans to rehearse the historical context when it is possible for someone from the Ministry of Defence, for example, to do that to assist both inquests and the commission.

[Peter Swallow (Bracknell) (Lab)]

As the Secretary of State knows, I am a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and we have been very engaged in this issue, not least because of the ruling of our courts that the previous Government’s attempt to legislate on this issue was unlawful because it would potentially grant immunity to, among others, terrorists. That is no way to serve justice to families and victims, and it is no way to serve justice to our veterans. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the legislation we are bringing forward will not grant immunity to terrorists? That is a simple request and it is remarkable that I have to make it, but given the legislation that the previous Government attempted to pass, it is important to have it on the record.

[Hilary Benn]

I am very happy to give my hon. Friend that assurance. The legislation was passed; it was never commenced. It was struck down by the courts, and the remedial order will remove it from the statute book, because we do not agree with giving immunity to terrorists. We do not agree with the principle of immunity because we believe, as I hope the whole House believes, in the rule of law.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the letters of comfort that were given to the IRA and the question of whether or not they still hold water, but let me go back to what the Secretary of State said about the possibility of IRA bosses like Gerry Adams claiming compensation on technical grounds that the “wrong” Minister signed their internment papers. As I understand it from what the Secretary of State said earlier, the remedial order that he is laying before Parliament will open up the possibility of such people suing the Government for compensation, which the new legacy legislation that he is bringing in will nevertheless then rule out. He referred to a possible gap between the new legislation coming into force and the remedial order opening the gap. It has been suggested to me that the Government are briefing the press that the remedial order will not actually be voted on until the new legacy Bill has gone through Parliament. Is that his policy, and if not, what is his policy?

[Hilary Benn]

The aim of the remedial order is to remove from the statute book provisions in the previous legislation that have been found to be incompatible with our obligations. I would just say that the letters of comfort did not offer immunity. That has been quite clear from Lady Justice Hallett’s review and what the Chief Constable and others have said.

I want to reassure the right hon. Gentleman on the interim custody orders. The Supreme Court judgment was in 2020. The last Government did not know what to do about that: it was not a judgment that the Government expected, and they did not know how to deal with the question of potential compensation. In the end, two Members of the other House introduced what are now sections 46 and 47. They were voted on, but they were subsequently found to be ineffective in achieving the objective, when the court said that they were incompatible.

What I have just told the House is that the new draft remedial order will not remove them from the statute book. Sections 46 and 47 will remain in place until such time as the new legislation I am introducing takes effect. It is a flimsy defence, because it has already been found by the courts to be ineffective, but it will remain in place. It shows that I have listened to the representations that were made about sections 46 and 47, and it is placed in the remedial order. I am now going to deal with the problem by legislation in the way that I set out.

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

Scores, if not hundreds, of people in Northern Ireland lost their lives because of the safe base and the haven that the Republic of Ireland offered their IRA murderers. That was where they had their arms dumps, that was where they had their training camps and that was where they returned to for sanctuary, safe in the knowledge that extradition would invariably be refused. Yet it is with the Government of that territory that the Secretary of State has chosen to co-design these proposals. He did not co-design them with the innocent victims of terrorism; he chose to co-design them with the Government of the territory that facilitated the victim makers. Why, then, should any innocent victim have any confidence in these proposals, particularly as they still require nothing meaningful from the Republic of Ireland? There is a tentative promise that, if necessary, there will be co-operation, but there is no apology for the Republic’s role in facilitating terrorism for years. Did the Secretary of State even seek an apology publicly from the Republic of Ireland? That is the same Government who to this day continue with an inter-state action against this Government. How could any of this proposal command widespread support when that is its genealogy?

[Hilary Benn]

I say to the hon. and learned Gentleman that we can remain stuck in the past and think of a thousand reasons why, “This isn’t good enough,” and, “We shouldn’t do this,” or, “We shouldn’t do the other.” The responsibility on the House is to try to find a way of moving forward, because the fact that so many families do not have answers is a product of—if I may say so—people being stuck in the past, and we need to move beyond that.

The hon. and learned Gentleman is mistaken, if I may gently chide him, in saying that these proposals have been co-designed with the Irish Government. I have said already that I would have taken these steps regardless of whether we reached an agreement with the Irish Government, because the mess left to us by the last Government forces whoever is in office now to deal with the consequences of a piece of legislation that did not work. But I will agree with him on one thing: in the end, it will be the families who will decide whether this new approach allows them to find the answers. I cannot say too many times that that is what really matters in all this, because it is those families who have influenced me more than anyone else in the discussions I have had.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

The young men sent out to do the state’s business during the troubles are now old men, often sick, often disabled. Some of them are my constituents. They will be listening carefully to the Secretary of State and will be hearing honeyed words. They will be reading those words in this framework document, even as the protections given by the legacy Act are stripped away from them and they listen for the metaphorical knock on the door as activist, left, liberal human rights lawyers construct, open and reopen cases that will do them in in their failing years. Is that what the Secretary of State wants? Is this not a beanfeast for lawyers? Is it any wonder that no veterans groups have come out to support the framework that he has announced today?

[Hilary Benn]

I have great respect for the right hon. Member and his service, both as a Minister and in our armed forces. I gently say to him that protections are not being stripped away because they never existed in the first place. It is important for the House to appreciate this: the provisions that were passed in the legacy Act were never commenced. They were then struck down by the courts. They do not exist; they never have existed. [Interruption.] That is just a fact. Nobody has been granted immunity because the provisions of that Act have never ever been applied. One cannot strip away something that never existed in the first place.

I am afraid what the last Government did was to offer a false promise to veterans. One of the consequences of the widespread failure of the legacy Act is court case after court case where people have said, “Well, we need to find another means of getting an answer to the question about what happened to our loved ones.” That involves expensive court cases. I am under an order to establish a public inquiry into one case. It is—I think the phrase has been used—a legal wild west that the legislation opened up, and we are trying to put things back together again.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The Secretary of State indicated that the Government are introducing what he described as “strong safeguards”, and he says that the legacy commission will be

“under a duty not to duplicate aspects of any previous investigations unless there are compelling reasons that make it essential.”

What will he do when—not if, but when—the Republic of Ireland’s Government come under severe pressure from other sources to make compelling reasons to him that there has to be something investigated that the person who is the subject of that investigation believed they would be excluded from? What will he do then?

[Hilary Benn]

The hon. Gentleman, for whom I have great respect, asks what is, in fairness, a totally hypothetical question. [Interruption.] Well it is a hypothetical question. The fact is that it will be for the commission to interpret the legal obligation that will be placed upon it by the legislation, which refers to such reinvestigation being essential. Ultimately, the commission will judge, and if people do not like the way in which it has interpreted things, they have a remedy available to them in judicial review.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

As a veteran, I am deeply concerned by the Government’s dogged pursuit of this legislation, which has the support neither of Northern Ireland veterans nor of veterans in my generation, who have concerns about their own service in Iraq and Afghanistan. What guarantees can the Secretary of State give the British public that this legislation will achieve justice and that terrorists guilty of the murders of British service personnel will now be held to account? How many cases does he believe will be reopened in order to pursue IRA terrorists in the way that British personnel are now vulnerable to being pursued?

[Hilary Benn]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his service. If he looks at the nearly 100 cases that the commission is currently investigating, he will find that they include the Guilford pub bombing, the M62 coach bombing and the Kingsmill massacre. The commission has the powers it needs—in this respect, I pay tribute to the previous Government—to get the information required to do the job of investigating. Having met the investigators, I can say that they are very committed to their task. The families who have chosen to refer the cases—which is what has governed the 100 cases that the commission is looking at—have said, “Please, can you look at this?” I want more families to do that, so that more of them get answers. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the number of cases, he will see that it reflects in reasonable measure who was actually responsible for the vast majority of deaths in Northern Ireland.

[Sarah Pochin (Runcorn and Helsby) (Reform)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that this Government’s continued hounding of our brave Northern Ireland veterans—many of whom should be enjoying well-earned retirement after their loyal service to the British Government, not living in fear of prosecution for simply following orders—is nothing short of shameful?

[Hilary Benn]

The Government do not wish to see anybody hounded. We have put these protections in place precisely because we have listened to the concerns that veterans have expressed to me, to the Defence Secretary and to the Minister for the Armed Forces. I gave one example of a veteran welcoming the fact that we were putting the protections in place. I would ask people to look at the protections when the legislation is presented, and to understand that what I say about the risk of prosecution diminishing rapidly over time is, looking back over recent years, reflected in what the facts tell us.

[Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst (Solihull West and Shirley) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State set out how many of the proposed six protections for veterans will also be available to former paramilitaries?

[Hilary Benn]

When they introduced immunity, the previous Government said that it would apply not just to veterans but to others, including terrorists, and that is what the legislation did in those circumstances. There are provisions that apply to witnesses, but the reason for the package is the determination of the Government to protect veterans. The hon. Member will see that a number of those protections are laid out in the legislation. Others will be steps that the Ministry of Defence will take.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Like the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State should stop using the phrase, “The legislation was struck down by the courts.” The courts have no such power. As Jack Straw made clear from the Dispatch Box, a declaration of incompatibility is no more than a declaration; it places no obligation or expectation on Parliament. But may I thank the Secretary of State for at least listening to my representations in delaying the repeal of sections 46 and 47 of the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 until the new legislation is in place? Of course, he is doing so because they are effective. Otherwise, there would be no point in delaying their repeal, would there?

[Hilary Benn]

I suppose I should take that praise from the right hon. Gentleman at face value. The fact is that sections 46 and 47 were found to be incompatible, but I have listened, and I hope Members of the House will find me willing to listen. I must, however, correct him, because when it comes to the immunity provisions, they were found to be incompatible, and he is correct in what he describes, but they were also struck down under article 2 of the Windsor framework. That is why they are not operational.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is no secret that I have major concerns over the legacy Bill, not least that innocent victims were precluded from taking their path to justice. What seems to be before us now is carte blanche for political inquiries and yet no hope for the Kingsmill families. It instead highlights the role of the Irish Government in British matters after their continued refusal to engage and their collusion to protect IRA murderers across the border.

In the penultimate paragraph of his statement, the Secretary of State said that

“the many families who lost loved ones…will be the judge of whether these new arrangements can give them the answers that they have sought for so long.”

Quite clearly, that will not be the case for many families, and the Secretary of State will know that a member of my family was murdered on 10 December 1971. It shows that the Government have no heart for the victims but have an ear instead for the victim maker. Does the Secretary of State not understand why these feelings exist? When will he put right thinking and good people of the Province above being seen to be politically correct by the enemies of peace and justice in Northern Ireland? My family seek justice, and I do not see it on the other side. For all the other families that I represent and that we all represent, we seek that justice, but not within this.

[Hilary Benn]

The hon. Gentleman has spoken before most powerfully and movingly about the impact that the death of family members has had upon him. He exemplifies, if I may say so, what so many people in Northern Ireland say when they meet us and talk to us: some will open up and some will weep, and some will not be able to open their mouths to describe what happened because the pain runs so deep after all these years. We are trying to create a mechanism and a means of enabling every single family who wants to come forward and say, “Can you please look at this case and see if we can find more information?” to do that.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the Kingsmill massacre. As I have already indicated to the House, that is one of the cases that the commission is currently looking into. There was the inquest verdict, and we know what it found. I will simply say to the House that probably the most difficult conversation I have had since I took up this post was to listen to the sole survivor of the Kingsmill massacre, Alan Black, describe to me exactly what happened on that dark and dreadful night.

[Alex Easton (North Down) (Ind)]

I personally do not have a great deal of faith in this Government or previous Governments on issues to do with legacy. Can the Secretary of State give assurances that in addressing the legacy of the Northern Ireland troubles, terrorists will not be allowed to rewrite history and that our history will be recorded truthfully, with the focus on innocent victims rather than on those who committed acts of terrorism? Can he further reassure me that veterans will not be chased for prosecutions vexatiously? Can he also reassure me—given that Irish Governments for 56 years of my life have failed to give information to our Government about acts of terrorism from their side of the country? Can he tell us what inquests will actually go ahead now? If he could name them all, I would really appreciate that.

[Hilary Benn]

I will write to the hon. Gentleman in response to his last question, if I may.

What the hon. Member describes is exactly what the commission is there to do. I am making a number of changes in the commission to create greater confidence on the part of families to come forward. I have great respect for Sir Declan Morgan and his colleagues, and for the work that they are doing. The fact that a hundred families have approached them is very significant, but as the hon. Gentleman will know very well, there are many families in Northern Ireland who will say, “Because of the circumstances of its creation, and the closing down of inquests and civil cases, we do not trust the commission to look independently and properly at our case.” I am trying to make it possible for more families to come forward so that more can find the answers they seek.

The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point about co-operation from Ireland. The reason why I was so keen to try to reach an agreement with the Irish Government is that we have got, as a result of our negotiations, a commitment to co-operate with the commission. At the moment, the Irish Government will not do so because of the legislation passed by the last Government. Once we have made these changes, they are committed to co-operating. In the end, we will all be judged on how this goes and how it proceeds, and whether the answers are found for families, but we will be in a much better position than we are with the total mess that the last Government left us.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

When we cut through the waffle of this statement and the Secretary of State’s answers this afternoon, one fact remains: soldiers who served in Northern Ireland who have already had cases tried will be able to be dragged back into the courts and will be subject to interrogation there. The Secretary of State talked about all these wonderful protections, so let us look at them: they will not have to travel to Northern Ireland—they can appear remotely; they will be given help to appear remotely—I assume that means that somebody will show them how to work an iPad; and they will not have a knock at the door from anybody other than the military police, so the PSNI will not be coming over from Northern Ireland and knocking at their door at 6 o’clock in the morning. That is hardly any reassurance to the people who served in Northern Ireland.

Then we are told that dealing with the families who were affected by the troubles is a joint responsibility with Irish Government. There is no obligation in this statement on the Irish Government, other than to throw 30 pieces of silver at the legacy mechanism to assuage their guilt for protecting terrorists over 30 years and for covering up for the collaboration of some within the Irish establishment who helped the IRA in their job.

[Hilary Benn]

I would say two things to right hon. Gentleman. First, I would not be quite so light with the importance of that commitment to allow our veterans to give evidence remotely. The Minister for the Armed Forces and I have both spoken to veterans for whom having to go back to Northern Ireland would bring back memories that they have been having to deal with ever since they served. That is actually a very important protection and one that the Government are committed to putting in place.

Secondly, how would the right hon. Gentleman propose that we move this question forward? For all the criticisms —no doubt, I will receive many, many more—the people I most wish to hear from are those who have practical proposals as to how we can create greater confidence on the part of the victims, survivors and the families so that they get the answers they are looking for. Anyone who comes forward with helpful suggestions will find a ready partner in me.