European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Monday 4th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Chapman]

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the fact that the Government seem to have acted in a rather high-handed way with all the devolved Administrations on a matter that is so fundamental to the future of the citizens of this country.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I agree with the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). The other border between the United Kingdom and Ireland is the one that passes through Holyhead and Fishguard. When I asked the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, in the Select Committee, what consideration he had given to the position in Holyhead in particular—given the chaotic road across the island, the two insubstantial bridges, and the extra traffic from the proposed Wylfa B power station—his answer he gave was very clear: “None.”

[Jenny Chapman]

That is shocking. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman and other colleagues from Wales will continue to make the point as the debate proceeds. Needless to say, the Government’s attitude has been most concerning to me and to First Ministers, because it suggests that they are not interested in the needs and ambitions of the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That approach is regrettable, but it is not too late to change it.

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[Hywel Williams]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. There is a good deal of agreement between us. He talks about the 2017 Act and some of the more abstract aspects that people listening in perhaps might not understand or follow, but there are practical and technical implications for children’s rights, the environment and so on. Does he not think that those aspects should be explored fully before we move to a vote? I certainly hope to do so.

[Stephen Doughty]

Absolutely. The danger of this place is that we sometimes get into the technical detail, but do not talk about the implications. Fundamentally, this is about where the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly have powers over the areas that affect many parts of our lives. When we talk about the impact Brexit could have on the agricultural sector, transport and customs arrangements—look at the debate on Ireland and Northern Ireland today—we need to speak a lot more about how the maritime border between Wales and the Republic of Ireland could be completely messed up, and the effect of the shenanigans and chaos of today’s negotiations on the prospects for Welsh businesses, ports and hauliers. These are real things that affect real lives. They might seem obtuse within this place, but they have an impact in reality.

Finally, I want to reflect on what the Exiting the European Union Committee said in paragraph 77 of its recent report. It was very clear about the problem of trust, and I think that this gets to the heart of the matter. The Government expect us to trust them that everything is going to be okay: there will be no problems; this is all going to fine; and, as I said, it is going to be all right on the night. The Committee said:

“Whilst the Government has said that it plans to work with the devolved administrations to reach agreements on UK common frameworks, the devolved administrations have insufficient trust in the process for agreeing these…relationships and have, accordingly, indicated that they will withhold legislative consent from the Bill. The Government must improve engagement with the devolved administrations. It must reach an agreement with the devolved administrations, which might result in changes to the Bill, setting out how and when…competencies will be devolved.”

What surprises me about this process is that the Government have known about those concerns. They have heard them repeatedly from Welsh and Scottish Ministers. They clearly were not listening to the concerns of some of their Northern Irish colleagues; otherwise we would not have seen today’s mess.

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[David Duguid]

The UK Government are interacting actively with the devolved Administrations, but it has to be recognised that it was the UK that voted to leave the EU and it is the UK that has the responsibility for the negotiations.

It is disappointing that the SNP is attempting to undermine the progress made by its Ministers in Holyrood on working towards UK-wide frameworks that work for Scotland. Despite the best efforts of SNP Members, the United Kingdom is still a united kingdom. To expect powers currently held by Brussels to devolve straight to the Scottish Parliament, without a transitional stage in between, is simply not practical or in Scotland’s long-term interests. I say that as someone who believes that Scotland is better off in the Union, whether or not SNP Members agree.

In conclusion, I am confident, particularly given the bending of ears by my Scottish Conservative colleagues and me, that the Government will do right for Scotland. Devolution will be strengthened, but not by these amendments.

[Hywel Williams]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (David Duguid), who talked about the promise of more and better powers than the Scottish Parliament currently holds. I suppose the same goes for Wales, but the problem is the question of when, and how we can be sure. While he ruminates on that, perhaps I will get on with my speech.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Although the Tories might need to ruminate on that, clearly Leo Varadkar does not. He has the powers and he is using them.

[Hywel Williams]

Indeed. That was an instructive point for us all.

I rise to speak to Plaid Cymru’s amendments 90 to 92. I am pleased to have co-sponsored the similar joint Welsh and Scottish Government amendments although, for reasons that I will make clear, I prefer my own versions.

The UK constitution is unwritten—or at least it is not written down all in one place—and is constantly evolving. It has evolved in such a way that we no longer live in a one-Parliament state. The UK consists of four representative, governing and law-making bodies, not one. That might seem like stating the obvious but, as I noted in my speech on our first day in Committee, there is no operative Assembly in Northern Ireland, the Parliaments in Wales and Scotland are considered differently from this one in Westminster, and of course England is invisible, except that we accept at the very least that England is de facto represented by this place, which raises questions of conflicts of interest.

The point is that democracy and its values apply to all, not just to one, and devolution demands that all parts of the UK have a say, not just one. As Members will know, the devolution statutes operate through a reserved-powers model in which certain matters are listed as the UK Parliament’s responsibilities. That means that matters not explicitly reserved to the UK Parliament are within the competence of the devolved legislatures.

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[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman is making a good point, and the rhetoric of a UK single market would make sense if the UK was composed of independent states, instead of being one super-state.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman has made that point already, and I agree with it.

In contrast to the EU internal market, the nature of the UK internal market appears to be self-evident and a matter of common sense to many people. It might be great and it might be something that has grown organically and suits us all, but how often have we seen apparently simple, clear and—crucially—unregulated systems descend into a writhing tangle of irreconcilable and conflicting interests? That is what might happen. We might wish for a simple UK internal market, but we might regret it if we wish for it. We will vote for new clause 64 but, if it is passed, we will give close consideration to how it could be improved through further amendments.

Subsidiarity is supposedly one of the governing principles of the European Union. Powers are supposed to be exercised as close to the citizen as possible. That model does not exist in the UK, where the UK Government remain sovereign. We rely on the separation of competences listed in the newly enshrined reserved powers model in the recently passed Wales Act 2017. This Bill, as it stands, undermines and reverses 20 years of the existence of the National Assembly for Wales.

Professor Rawlings, the professor of public law at University College London, in evidence to the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee on 31 October, highlighted the concern over what he describes as the double-hatted nature of the UK Government, meaning that they simultaneously represent the UK-wide Government and the Government of England. I raised that point during my speech on our first day in Committee. As I said earlier, this raises a concern not only about conflicts of interest, but about the fact that the subcultures, networks and assumptions of large Departments, including the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, are focused, almost unconsciously, on England. That has been a recurring theme throughout Select Committee evidence sessions. As I said with reference to the Department of Health, this is a long-standing difficulty.

In evidence to the Brexit Committee on 17 October, Laura Dunlop, QC said:

“In our prototype framework—whatever our internal market is destined to look like—at the moment, there is one party in the discussions that is wearing two hats, and that is the UK Government, who are also required to speak for England. That is a significant difficulty, in my view.”

The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West and I were there to hear Laura Dunlop say that. On 24 October, Dr Viviane Gravey told the Welsh Affairs Committee:

“What I mean by giving greater powers is that during that period planned in the Withdrawal Bill, UK Ministers will be able to change the law that has been given back from Brussels, but the devolved”

Governments

“will not. There is then a question of whether any changes made will be in the interests of the whole of the UK or just of England.”

That is the question.

The United Kingdom consists of four countries—four political bodies—not just one. Democracy requires and values all voices, not just one. Devolution demands that all countries within the United Kingdom have a say in the future, not just one. Members will have the opportunity today to stop this Westminster power grab. If all the Opposition parties turn up to vote, and vote together in the interests of the devolved countries, we can stop this encroachment on Welsh sovereignty and put all four UK countries on an equal footing.

[Mr David Jones]

It is a great pleasure to be asked to address the Committee as a lonely Welsh voice in this Scottish enclave south of the Gangway. I should like to say how impressed I am with my new Scottish colleagues, and with the way in which they stand up for their constituencies and for Scotland.

It was always predictable that clause 11 would be one of the more contentious clauses in the Bill, given that it impinges on the devolution settlements that have been created over the past 20 or so years. When we consider what the clause seeks to achieve, it is important to consider the history of devolution in this country. In the case of Scotland and Wales, it was implemented as a consequence of the two referendums that were held in 1997. That was some years after the United Kingdom became a member of what was then the European Economic Community. Indeed, all our devolution legislation was put in place after we joined. It is important to remember that, at the time of accession to the European Union, devolution was not contemplated.

It was in the context of our membership of the European Union that the various devolution settlements were crafted. The powers that were conferred on the new devolved bodies are consequently subject to overriding EU law, regulations and common frameworks, the principal purpose of which was to protect and preserve the integrity of the European single market, as we have heard repeatedly today. It is a fact, however, that as a consequence of the protection of the European single market, those reservations have operated to protect what I am quite happy to call the UK internal market—

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[Mr Jones]

I have never been to Perthshire but I am sure that it is a delightful place. In this country, we have four countries and three devolved bodies, which have competence in the area of economic development, among other things. The hon. Gentleman and I might be at odds on this, but I take the view that there is a United Kingdom internal market. He can come to the contrary conclusion if he wishes.

[Hywel Williams]

I am intrigued. Can the right hon. Gentleman identify anyone who has spoken in the House today who has argued against having a UK internal market?

Oral Answers to Questions

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 11th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Free schools have performed a very important function in raising standards in education in this country, and I am pleased that we have so many more children now in good or outstanding schools. Free schools have done something else as well, as I see in my own constituency, where one of the free schools is specifically for children who are on the autistic spectrum. That is very important, and it is a service that was not available previously. Free schools have enabled that to happen. They are providing for people up and down the country, and we should welcome them.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Q15. Vascular services in my constituency are to be moved to an as yet untested centre, while in Bangor we already have a facility with an international reputation. Does the Prime Minister share my concern that, due to bungling over health by the Labour Government in Cardiff, seriously ill Welsh patients will have to travel further and even, like the late Irfon Williams, have to move to live in England just to access proper treatment?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. I am obviously not aware of the details of the particular services and of the transfer that he has referred to, but the overall point he makes is that people living in Wales are often seeing that they are getting a less good service from the Labour Government NHS in Wales—[Interruption.] Oh, yes. Yes, this is the case. As the hon. Gentleman says, there are people who will travel from Wales to England to get the service that is available in the NHS in England, and the Labour Government in Wales need to take a hard look at what they are doing to the NHS in Wales.

UK Plans for Leaving the EU

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Monday 9th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I recognise the concerns people have about ensuring they know what the situation is going to be. The Government are working on what steps will be necessary for whatever the eventuality—whether we do negotiate a deal or whether we do not—and in doing that we are holding discussions with business.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I thank the Prime Minister for prior sight of her statement. We have heard a great deal from her about the non-border that she envisages between the north of Ireland and the Republic, but I do not think we have heard a word about the border between Wales and the Republic of Ireland, even though the north Wales route through Holyhead is second only to Dover in its volume of traffic. Will she tell the House what she is doing to ensure that north Wales does not grind to a halt after Brexit?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very clear that as we look for a solution for the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland we do not want to set up a new border between the island of Ireland and the mainland of the United Kingdom. Obviously, what happens at the border the hon. Gentleman refers to will depend on the future partnership that we agree with the EU. We have put some proposals forward for customs arrangements that could pertain. When we get into the negotiation of that phase, we will be able to look at those issues in detail.

Election of Speaker

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 13th June 2017 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

May I begin by associating myself and my party with the Prime Minister’s remarks and the remarks of others about the outrages in Manchester and in London? These sorts of horrible acts have absolutely no place in our democracy, and we all join together to condemn them.

You will forgive me, Mr Speaker-Elect, if I begin by welcoming my new hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake). The good people of Ceredigion will be represented by a Plaid Cymru Member once again, and we look forward to his contributions.

On behalf of my hon. Friends, I would of course like to congratulate both you, Mr Speaker-Elect, and the Father of the House. I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House look forward to the incisive, knowledgeable and supremely confident interventions of the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) during what is likely to be one of the most lively and important Parliaments of recent years—not least because the main matter before us, the UK’s place in Europe, has been one of his central political concerns for so long.

I congratulate you, Mr Speaker-Elect, and hope that you will continue in your positive attitudes towards the working of this place, the modernisation of that working and the rights of Back Benchers, and in the very fair treatment that you have always provided to the smaller parties.

Oral Answers to Questions

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I do not recognise the basis of the hon. Gentleman’s question. We want the freest, most open trading agreement, and it seems to me that the real investors, who are creating real jobs, are taking us towards our ambition. We have seen major investment by Nissan in Sunderland, major investment by Toyota in Derbyshire and major investment in my constituency by Aston Martin. That demonstrates their confidence in our vision as we leave the European Union.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

2. What recent assessment he has made of the effect on Wales’s trade with EU countries of the UK leaving the EU.

[Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

7. What assessment he has made of the implications for Wales’s trading opportunities of the UK’s decision to leave the EU.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

The UK, including Wales, remains the same outward-looking, globally minded country we have always been. International businesses, such as Aston Martin, choose to invest in Wales as a result of the great work done by the Department for International Trade and the Wales Office, working hand in glove with the Welsh Government. That shows that Wales continues to be a great investment destination.

[Hywel Williams]

Welsh food and drink exports to the European Union will face eye-watering tariffs on leaving the single market. Will the Minister simply guarantee that, as part of a World Trade Organisation deal, the home market will not be flooded with cheap food imports such as Australian sheepmeat?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is again guilty of peddling scare stories. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to lamb, for example, New Zealand currently does not even meet its quota to the European Union—only 70% of the New Zealand quota is currently maintained. He should have some confidence in Welsh agricultural produce, rather than talking down the prospects of the economy.

[Hywel Williams]

I would have a great deal more confidence if the Minister answered the question. On Monday I visited one of the largest and most successful high-tech businesses in Wales, which told me that, post-Brexit, it is hoping against hope to be able to export to its European partners, as at present, without all the red tape and expense of being outside the customs union. Why are this hard-Brexit Government so determined to make life more difficult for our key exporters?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman again highlights the negativity that surrounds the issue, but it is a negativity that I do not recognise, that is not recognised by businesses in Wales and that is certainly not highlighted by the investment decisions made by businesses in Wales. Businesses in Wales are investing and are looking to a global future. We will secure the greatest possible access to European markets, although we are also looking to global trade deals that will ensure Wales is part of global growth as well as maintaining European markets.

Early Parliamentary General Election

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 19th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

The Prime Minister presents herself, to adapt a phrase from Mr Tony Blair, as a pretty straight sort of a person. She is a former Home Secretary—I am glad to see that the present Home Secretary is in the Chamber today—and she well knows the value of evidence as it is proved. She was initially in favour of leaving the European Union, which was an honest and honourable stance, even if it is one with which I disagree. Then she was in favour of remaining in the EU, although she was something of a shrinking violet in her support for that argument. Now she is again resolute in her determination to leave.

The Prime Minister was also utterly opposed to holding an early general election, saying that it would be a distraction, turning us in on domestic matters when she had important and time-limited international negotiations to conclude. And now, hey-ho, she is equally determined that a general election we must have. She was against the European Union, then for the European Union, then against it again. She was against holding a general election and is now determined to have one. Her record is about as straight as the legendary European Union banana.

[Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister has said repeatedly today that she wants an early election in order to produce a larger Tory majority. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that she is treating the electorate of the United Kingdom with contempt by assuming that the election will result in a larger Tory majority, and that she is thereby admitting that she has no plan at all for this country if she does not get that result?

[Hywel Williams]

I have no crystal ball. Unfortunately, however, I can see the disarray in the Labour party, but who knows what the outcome will be?

I am suspicious of the Prime Minister’s motives and her reasoning. She says that the general election will enhance her status among the other 27 EU member states, for example, but I cannot see how that can be the case. Her motives are in fact pretty clear and straight. This is not only about the destruction of the Labour party as a credible Opposition for the next decade or so—I am afraid that Labour is doing a pretty effective demolition job on itself without her help—or about raising a challenge to my friends from Scotland, although in this I think her case is already lost. No, this election is about seeing off not her opponents on our side of the House but her enemies behind her. As ever with the Tories, desperate disunity is being papered over while it suits.

Plaid Cymru welcomes the opportunity that this election presents to the people of Wales to change our long-term course away from Labour’s leaden Government in Cardiff and away from this hyper-centralised and heedless Government in London, cutting our own path towards economic regeneration and prosperity, social justice, and a proper, confident place for Wales in the world.

Article 50

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The strength of our legal services, and the co-operation that we have on justice and legal matters, are also an important part of the relationship that we have. My right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor has been working with the judiciary to examine exactly those issues and consider how we can proceed with them to ensure the right level of co-operation in the future.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I thank the Prime Minister for giving me advance sight of her statement. She referred to “the British spirit” and to a “fairer”, “united” Britain, but fairness is a proper respect for all views from all parts of the islands, not just, as she put it, “taking account of the specific interests” of nations and regions beforehand, and not just consulting about which repatriated powers should stay in Westminster and which should be dribbled down while she drives through her extreme version of Brexit. As we leave the European Union, there must be a better way than just her way.

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman referred to my vision for Brexit. As I have made very clear, in the House this afternoon and elsewhere, we want that comprehensive free trade agreement, we want good security co-operation, and we want good security on justice and home affairs matters. That is what is in the letter to President Tusk. I do not consider it to be an extreme view of Brexit; I consider it to be a good deal for the United Kingdom.

European Council

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. It is vital for us to continue to confirm and reaffirm the importance of the United Kingdom. He says that we should reaffirm that importance to constituents outside Scotland, but we should also reaffirm the importance of the United Kingdom to Scotland and to Scotland’s economy, which I did recently when I was in Glasgow.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I was glad to hear the Prime Minister say that she has been working with the devolved Administrations, but I was also slightly puzzled because the

“Joint Ministerial Committee on Exiting the EU is less organised than a community council”.

Those are not my words, but those of an actual participant: the Welsh Government Minister Mark Drakeford. How is she ensuring that the interests of the devolved Governments are reflected in the article 50 notification?

[The Prime Minister]

The Joint Ministerial Committee process has been operating for some months at various levels and has brought UK Government Ministers together with the three devolved Administrations to discuss issues that have been raised on both sides, including looking at the Welsh Government’s paper on Wales’s particular concerns, which are being taken into account.

Oral Answers to Questions

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

Welsh produce, and Welsh lamb and beef in particular, is world leading, and there are great opportunities as we exit the European Union to explore and exploit new markets. Hybu Cig Cymru specifically recognised that £20 million could be brought to Wales from accessing the north American market. These are the ambitions that we want to have, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will of course put Britain first in any negotiations.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I am not seeking a running commentary or any detailed negotiating information, but a special deal was cut for the car industry in the north-east. Did the Secretary of State seek a similar deal for the car industry in Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

I do not recognise the basis of the question. The automotive sector is exceptionally strong in Wales, partly as a result of the Nissan contract in Sunderland, for which many of the supplier companies are based in Wales. I also draw attention to the great success of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence in bringing Aston Martin to Wales. We should recognise and celebrate the fantastic success on that MOD base.

[Hywel Williams]

Up to 200,000 jobs in Wales depend on our membership of the European Union, the single market and the customs union. I am not going to go through every sector, but will the Secretary of State seek sectoral deals for important parts of the Welsh economy as we leave the European Union?

[Alun Cairns]

It is clear that we want to get the best deal for the whole of the United Kingdom. We want to ensure that the market within the United Kingdom works effectively. After all, the most important market for Wales is the market from within the United Kingdom. The hon. Gentleman can take confidence from the fact that, on the back of this Government’s policy and success, Wales has been the fastest growing economy outside London since 2010.

Oral Answers to Questions

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am sure that the Westminster Memorial hospital in Shaftesbury is providing good services for local people. The structure of local services is of course a matter for discussion at local level, and it is crucial that local clinicians and others agree that we have a safe and secure service for people and that they are provided with the NHS services that they need at the most appropriate level. I fully accept my hon. Friend’s point that we often think only about the major district general hospitals and acute hospitals when actually the NHS is made up of many different parts. We need to ensure that patients are being treated at the most appropriate level for their needs.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

How can abandoning membership of a customs union that takes 68% of Wales’s exports—including, crucially, 90% of our food and drink exports—and that supports 200,000 jobs cause anything other than “calamitous…self-harm”?

[The Prime Minister]

What we will be doing is negotiating a free trade agreement with the European Union to get the best possible access for trade with the EU, but we also want to be able to negotiate trade agreements with other countries around the world. A number of countries have already expressed interest in doing that with us. We want to do that to open up new export markets being delivered for businesses here in the United Kingdom, including the sort of trade in Wales that the hon. Gentleman is talking about. On the question of customs with the European Union, we want an arrangement that will involve the most frictionless borders possible.