Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mark Simmonds]

Let us be absolutely clear that the UK is offering the French deployment, at the behest of the civilian-led sovereign Government of Mali, limited logistical support. Approximately 40 UK military personnel are deployed as part of the EU training mission, three of whom are specifically related to the Foreign Secretary’s initiative on preventing sexual violence in conflict. They are there to train the Malian army with respect to human rights. Other international and multilateral discussions are taking place on deploying AFISMA—the African-led international support mission to Mali—to replace the French troops and, ultimately, a UN mission.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Indeed, Jeffrey Feltman, the United Nations Under-Secretary General for Political Affairs, said last week that it was vital that the political process be taken forward in Mali. Given our previous military involvement, what specific assistance are the UK Government giving to the political process? Does the Minister envisage the elections taking place by the summer of this year?

[Mark Simmonds]

My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary visited Bamako recently to support that process. The Prime Minister has appointed a special representative, my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Mr O’Brien), who is very involved in the process. The hon. Gentleman is right to focus on the importance of the political process. We are discussing whether we can support the efforts of the African Union as well. We need to ensure that all the groups in the north are involved in the political process, and that mechanisms are put in place to air and resolve the grievances of those who live in the north.

Government Policy (Kenya)

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to appear before you today, Mr Bone, and to take part in this debate. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Eric Joyce) for initiating it, because this is an appropriate time for us to reflect on Kenya’s position. It is such an important country in east Africa, as has been conveyed by all the speakers. This is a time for us to reflect on the elections and think about our relationship with Kenya. It is a crucial country in Africa, with huge opportunities and strategic importance, and we need to work with it in the years ahead.

My hon. Friend raised the continuing issue about the International Criminal Court, which I will come on to, and spoke about such economic issues as communications in Africa, which are quite extraordinary. It is striking how we regularly hear from Back Benchers in this House about the frustrations of broadband delivery within walking distance of town centres in their constituencies because, from my experience of visits to Africa, the innovative approach to communications and the development of mobile technologies—from Morocco to even the Congo—is quite extraordinary. As in so many areas, we must not assume that we have nothing to learn from innovative progress in Africa. We need to engage much more closely with countries such as Kenya to learn about such matters.

The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) made an important point about the neo-colonialist background. As we have heard, comments were made in the heat of the election campaign and, as he rightly said, that sometimes happens in Britain. A letter was delivered to me on election day by my Liberal Democrat opponent, who suggested that he might take me to court because of my election leaflet, but fortunately that never happened—[Interruption.] As the Minister says, that was clearly a misunderstanding.

Things said in election campaigns should be reflected on, but we then need to build relationships and move forward. I am sure that the approaches of the diplomatic representatives from the United Kingdom were entirely appropriate. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, I have combed the records, and I struggled to find—in fact, I did not find—anything inappropriate about any observations made by Her Majesty’s Government on the elections, so it is entirely right to move forward.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) referred to the armed forces parliamentary scheme, which is so important in enabling us in this House to appreciate the continuing work of our armed forces across the world. Kenya is important in that regard, as my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk said.

The debate has been interesting and important. I have listened to all the speakers, and I think that reflection and looking forward is now the order of the day. Given the elections, Kenya has been the focus of international attention, and many of us held our breath about the elections over the past month. Thankfully, there has not been a repeat of the scale of violence that the people of Kenya witnessed following the elections in December 2007, which, it is worth reflecting, left 1,000 people dead and 600,000 people displaced. There was a real concern about the breakdown of government at that time, which fortunately has not been repeated.

Not everything went smoothly in the recent elections. On polling day, a separatist organisation raided a police station in Mombasa, resulting in 15 deaths. The situation was tense, but we have moved through that. As we know, following the 2007 elections, the President-elect and the Vice-President-elect were brought before the ICC to answer charges of crimes against humanity relating to post-election violence. That still continues and, as the hon. Member for Cheltenham said, we must respect the role of the International Criminal Court. International principles of justice and democracy must apply and be carried forward.

It is clear from this debate that there is a great deal of sympathy and solidarity with, as well as passion for, the people of Kenya. What I have learned in my role as shadow Minister for Africa is that there are enormous Kenyan communities within the UK, who make a very valuable contribution to British life. I have met individuals and groups with a concern for Kenya, who felt great sadness and frustration around the time of 2007 and 2008, and who also felt that there was a lack of political and legal accountability in connection with the 2007 violence. So, the pending legal challenge at the ICC has been an important process, but it has of course been a slow process, as so many legal proceedings are, and a painful one. We in the UK always have to be aware of our connections with Kenya.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The hon. Gentleman referred to the frustration that some people feel when looking at the situation in Kenya, particularly those of Kenyan origin who are here in the United Kingdom. I was in Kenya in 2002 and visited polling stations during the presidential election then, and the optimism at the election of President Kibaki at that time was palpable—it was a change. Unfortunately, things deteriorated in the 2007 election and in the violence afterwards. Does the hon. Gentleman share my sense of frustration, and that of Kenyans who I have talked to, that things have not moved forward, that the optimism has not been capitalised upon and that the great potential of Kenya has not been realised for its people?

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[Ian Lucas]

That is intensely frustrating. What has struck me on the visits I have made to different African countries is the passion for democracy and the passion to vote, which was reflected in the 86% turnout in the recent election in Kenya. There is a thirst for democracy and progress, so the fact that progress has not been made in the last decade is a great source of disappointment. I hope that, even though the ICC proceedings are taking place, we will now be able, given the acceptance of the parties in the election of the result of the election although there may be legal challenges involved, to make some progress—both political and economic—in a way that has not happened in the past decade.

We must tread very carefully. The Minister knows that in our dealings with many, many African countries, they are very well aware of our colonial past. We have a role that, of course, respects the principles of self-determination and of elections within African countries, but different African countries always have a particular relationship with the United Kingdom, which is similar to the relationship of some African countries with other countries, such as France, that have also played a role in the continent in the past. That relationship is different from African countries’ relationship with countries such as China, which have not played the same role in Africa in the past.

However, we should give credit for the peaceful and determined spirit with which the recent election in Kenya was conducted for the vast majority of people. It was conducted in the right spirit and with the right principles. We need to respect the authority of the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission, and of other Kenyan institutions, to deliver this election. The disputes that are under way at the present time should be dealt with by the courts, which is the appropriate place for any disputes to be dealt with. In terms of governance, we should emphasise that our commitment is to international principles of democracy and justice, and it is not—in any sense—to interfere in any particular state. We have a proud tradition of democracy in this country, which we want to be shared everywhere.

We have heard that Kenya has, of course, an extremely important strategic location and role within the region, and that it has been very helpful indeed in achieving the steps—the tentative steps—towards progress in Somalia. My hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk mentioned the piracy issue. The EU has done much good work on that issue, and it has worked with Kenya to improve the piracy situation during the past few years. I commend the Government for the important role that that work has played in the region.

In addition, Kenya is an important economic power, as we have also heard. The Department for International Development has recently teamed up with the CBI to campaign for growth in emerging economies, especially in sub-Saharan Africa and south Asia. I would be very interested to hear what specific steps the Government are taking with UK Trade and Investment to work with British business in Kenya—in the new context of a new, stable Government—to build good governance and good business structures within the country that can deliver prosperity, not only to Kenya but to British businesses that work there.

It is very important that we continue with our co-operation programmes in this place through the Inter-Parliamentary Union and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Recently, we have had visits to the UK from Kenyan groups, including a delegation of Kenyan women parliamentarians, and it is extremely important that those visits continue. It is also important that the development of the structures of democracy continues, such as committee work and all the grind that we get used to in this place and that is such an intrinsic and fundamental part of an effective democratic process. Again, we benefit hugely from contact and liaising with our African colleagues. It is very important that in this new phase in Kenyan politics we work hard on deepening and strengthening those contacts.

I believe that the EU, in connection with the recent election in Kenya, carried out an observation mission and I would be interested in hearing the Minister’s reflections on that mission, and on what assessment the EU has made about the election itself. Clearly, there are some matters relating to process, which have been raised by the losing candidate for the presidency, but I would be interested to hear about the EU’s reflections on that matter.

I know that the British Government have provided support for Kenya through the EU, including support for the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission, voter education, independent election observation and security reform. Again, any reflections that the Minister can provide on our role—what we did well, what we did badly—would be very helpful. If he cannot provide them today, I would certainly be grateful if he could provide them in the weeks ahead.

In recent months, Members from across the House have been very concerned by violent clashes between the Orma and Pokomo groups in the Tana River district. I am pleased that the Kenyan Government have responded by adding 1,000 police officers to the officers in the area, and that the disarmament programme and mediation efforts are continuing. However, I would be grateful if the Minister could provide an update and a report on the position on the ground in that district at the present time.

I hope that the Minister can address these questions. It is important, now that the election in Kenya is behind us and the parties there have accepted its outcome, that we develop and build our relations with the new Kenyan Government; that governance is strengthened in Kenya; and that in our Parliament we work hard with our Kenyan friends to develop effective governance. Also, following on from yesterday’s debate in Westminster Hall about the importance of UKTI and economic exports from the UK to different parts of the world including Africa, which some Members who are here today also attended, it is very important that we support and make effective economic progress with partners such as Kenya. We should be looking ahead; we are in a new phase in Kenyan-British relations. We need to work hard to ensure that that new phase is a positive one, which will be of benefit to the people of Kenya and the people of Britain.

UK Trade & Investment

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) on not only securing the debate, but his comprehensive remarks.

The UK remains the ninth largest manufacturer in the world, but over the past few years, our export performance has been poor. In 2000, our share of world goods exports was 4.4% but, unfortunately, that had fallen to 2.8% by 2009, which is quite shocking. Perhaps that is why so few Labour Members are in the Chamber.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Chris White]

Unfortunately, I cannot, given the time available.

There are, however, now positive signs of improvement. In contrast to financial services, exports in manufactured goods have risen since the financial crisis. Fortunately, in the period between 2008 and 2011, exports of finished manufactured goods grew by more than 16%.

Ultimately, exports depend on good products and pioneering companies, such as DCA Design International. I will not go through a list, as my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) did of all the jam makers and so on in her constituency, but my constituency has similar manufacturers.

The Government have a role in supporting businesses to export, and I hope that they will use the upcoming Budget to provide additional resources to UKTI so that it can reach out to even more businesses. The Prime Minister has announced a national challenge for the UK to encourage more small and medium-sized businesses to export, which is essential. As has been mentioned, if the UK exported at the EU average of about 25%, rather than 20%, about £36 billion would be added to the UK economy.

Businesses need support if they are to export, particularly smaller businesses that do not have large teams and resources to enable them to get into such markets. Our competitors in Europe and America see potential growth in the BRIC countries, as has been mentioned, and their Governments seek to provide their companies with every single advantage. That is why collaboration between the Foreign Office and UKTI is so important. The Foreign Secretary has made it clear that he wants British embassies to roll up their sleeves and support British business. We must also ensure that officials have their ear to the ground for new trade opportunities and then feed such information back to UKTI. We need to create a dual hub-and-spoke system, with the UK’s vast diplomatic opportunities feeding back information to UKTI and trade bodies in the UK, while they in turn have their own systems to feed back local information to chambers of commerce and business networks.

The Foreign Secretary has tried to reverse the decline in trade offices in consulates throughout the world, but we need to do more than merely reverse the decline—we need to expand, particularly in the emerging markets I mentioned earlier. Information is crucial in an age in which companies can communicate in minutes and deals can be won or lost through the smallest of delays. In the longer term, we also need to encourage businesses to make personal connections with emerging markets.

As a British Chambers of Commerce survey in 2011 pointed out, contacts are often key for businesses exporting into new markets. Businesses that had employees or directors who had lived abroad were even more successful. However, the most direct way in which we can support British businesses to export is by ensuring that our export products and guarantees are as competitive as possible. The Government should therefore commission a report into the comparative competitiveness of the UK’s export guarantees and credits, and the effectiveness of our institutions such as UKTI, so that we can learn from the success of others, and accordingly improve our own standards and the way in which we work.

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[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone.

I commend the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) for initiating this interesting debate and for making a valuable and interesting speech. I was particularly interested in his perception of working with the 11 developing economies, which was a positive suggestion. We are operating in a world economy that is growing in different parts of the world. Unfortunately, our own economy is not, but we are aware that there are opportunities, as we heard often in the debate, in those emerging economies. Looking ahead in the way the hon. Gentleman suggested is important, as is his emphasis—this was a thread throughout the debate—on SMEs. I will return to that theme, because it is crucial to the success of British exporters.

The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) also made a valuable contribution in which he raised the important issue of devolved institutions and the relationship between UKTI and the devolved nations. More work can be done to ensure that those parties work together, both to promote investment in the UK and to sell the message about Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. Also, within England, a more devolved approach within UKTI would increase the links between business and UKTI, which I sense from listening to the debate that many hon. Members feel are lacking.

The contribution made by the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) was interesting, particularly his suggestion, which is certainly worthy of consideration, that there should be a Select Committee to examine these important points. The hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) also emphasised the crucial importance of small and medium-sized businesses. We heard about the jam that is made in her constituency, which I am sure is excellent—I would love to experience it at some stage. I was also interested in the contribution by the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) and his reference to the Azerbaijan games.

In the debate so far, we have not touched on creative industries. Sport is obviously crucial. Last year was a wonderful year in which we projected Britain—sorry, the United Kingdom—to the world, in addition to our artistic merit. I am sure that it is true for all Members that the potential of the creative industries in our constituencies and the skills of our young people in those industries match the world’s best. When we consider exporting, we need to talk much more about the creative industries than we do now and concentrate on that sector.

I almost got upset with the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) because of the misrepresentations he made about the previous Labour Government, but I will move on from that. I also learned from the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) about the daffodils that he exported, and as a representative from Wales, I commend him on his choice of flower. All Members who contributed to the debate did so positively.

We are, of course, in a difficult situation because despite the references to business expertise by Conservative Members, the reality is that this country’s economic performance has been very bad since 2010, and far worse than the Government said that it would be in 2010. The Government said that they would base their economic policy on exporting, but I am afraid that that process has not been as successful as we would have liked. We need to up our game. On the eve of the Budget, it is quite clear that we need to do more.

We do have companies that are extremely successful at exporting. I do not want to be the bringer of bad news the whole time, so I will say that only yesterday we had an excellent announcement from Airbus, which has a factory just outside my constituency, that it is selling more than 200 new aircraft to Indonesia, which is one of the economies to which the hon. Member for Enfield North referred. That is an excellent example of the Government and the industry working together. That form of business is very successful, because we are the No. 1 exporting nation in Europe and we can outperform our competitors.

The UK automotive industry is also a successful exporting industry. It is doing extremely well and, again, that is an example of the Government, industry and—dare I say it?—trade unions working extremely closely for the benefit of the economy. That means that we can succeed when we work together, ensure that we reach out to development markets and make real progress.

I turn now to Germany, to which the hon. Member for Enfield North referred, because I found some interesting statistics during my preparation for the debate. I was especially interested to learn that Germany’s export credit agency, Hermes, provided €32 billion of financial support to German exporters in 2010, which is equivalent to 3% of Germany’s exports. The UK equivalent, the Export Credits Guarantee Department, provided only £2.9 billion of support for exporters which, if my maths is correct, is less than one tenth of the support that Germany offers. It would therefore be helpful if the Minister examined that German budget and considered how a country such as Germany can fund such a seismically larger approach to investment abroad.

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

The hon. Gentleman has made what is perhaps the most important point that could possibly come out of this debate. The banks are still not lending to small businesses, there is still a problem with export finance guarantees and there is still a problem with currency instruments. If we can get ECGD at least to start backing instruments to help small and medium-sized companies to export, I believe that we could have a step change.

[Ian Lucas]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. I am a proponent of a much more regional structure in banking than the one that exists in the UK at the moment. The flawed reforms in the 1980s created a very centralised and uncompetitive banking sector that has not fundamentally changed in any way since 2007. The German Sparkassen model has been successful since 2007, and the Leader of the Opposition made a speech only last week in which he talked about introducing the concept of regional banking within the UK to try to link in with those businesses that we need to see expand.

I say that because the businesses that are exporting successfully from the UK at the moment—and, frankly, the businesses that are also using export credit guarantees—are the largest businesses that we have. I do not want that to diminish in any sense, as I speak as someone who represents a constituency that is immediately adjacent to an Airbus factory, which is a vital part of our local economy. However, we also need an expansion of exports by small and medium-sized businesses.

Of course we need to work more closely with UKTI and our embassies abroad, which in my experience do an excellent job of linking in with local economies. We particularly need to look at the developing countries where we ought to be doing better. Of course, there are many examples of the benefits of soft power in the UK. Reference has already been made to the World Service and to the English language, and our universities also develop excellent links with the outside world.

We are, however, sending mixed signals to some developing countries. This issue was raised on the Prime Minister’s recent visit to India because, for example, the changes in our visa regime are sending mixed signals to India. India is an important market for us, so we need to be conscious that we require a pro-business and pro-growth strategy on such issues as visas. It is also true that the World Service is one of our greatest assets. It builds a positive picture of Britain, so we must ask why its budget has been reduced by the Government through their reforms of the BBC. We must always look to the longer term on building our economy and exports.

I am aware that one way in which the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills builds its links to businesses is through the strategic relations team, so I want to ask some questions about that—[Interruption.] I do not know why the Minister is looking at his watch, because he will have exactly the same length of time that I have had to speak in which to wind up the debate.

I want to ask the Minister specific questions about the process whereby specific Ministers are allocated to specific larger businesses. How do those Ministers, who are linked through the UKTI strategic relations team’s list of companies, link in to smaller businesses? How do they liaise with smaller businesses, which we know will drive the expansion in exports in the future? They have close relationships with the larger companies, so how is their performance with those larger companies assessed? Is there a measure of the investment that is brought in?

I would be very grateful if the Minister would consider my points. We all agree that we need to expand exports and that we need to do better. We will support initiatives that will enable that to happen, but we certainly need to up our game, because we do not have the growth that we need in our own economy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

My hon. Friend puts it very well. There is a great risk of trying to see all political developments through the prism of 24-hour news or a rolling news programme. These things will not be settled quickly. I suspect that we will not know the outcome of the Arab spring even by the time most of us have finished our period in Parliament. My hon. Friend is right: this will need patience. Equally, the commitment of those such as the United Kingdom to democracy-building institutions—which we are involved in through the Arab partnership and other partners—is a vital part of the process, if it is to be a success.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

When President Marzouki came to Britain last autumn, he stressed the vital importance of establishing a broad-based constitution. In view of the difficult atmosphere following the death of Chokri Belaid, what specific actions are the UK Government taking to support the development of democracy, perhaps through Arab Partnership projects? This is an absolutely crucial time for Tunisia.

[Alistair Burt]

It certainly is. The hon. Gentleman is right to point to our engagement, through Arab Partnership, in various democracy-building processes. We are expecting a number of projects to be developed during the course of this year, at a cost of some £2.5 million, and we will be looking to develop projects on election monitoring, on the support of political parties and on democracy building. We are constantly looking, with the Tunisians, at what they will find most effective. Last year, one of the most effective projects was to help them to move their state broadcasting company into a public broadcasting company. Such efforts to open up democracy to more people are a vital part of the process that we hope will lead to the establishment of a new constitution in the time scale already set out by the Tunisians.

Syria: anti-Government Forces

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Monday 4th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Swire]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question, which gives me the opportunity to state again that the change in the EU sanctions to which he alluded is about non-lethal equipment and technical assistance. The Foreign Secretary was tempted yesterday on the “The Andrew Marr Show” to go further, but right hon. and hon. Members will have to wait for his statement, because he wishes—quite properly—to make his position clear in this House.

My hon. Friend mentioned the suffering of the people, and that is precisely what the change is designed to help alleviate. It is worth remembering that 4 million people are now in need of urgent assistance and that 2 million have been internally displaced. More than 900,000 Syrian refugees are in need of assistance in neighbouring countries, and my hon. Friend of all people will be acute to the dangers of unsettling regional areas close to that country.

The change under debate is about ensuring that all options are on the table and that EU countries have maximum flexibility to provide the opposition with all necessary assistance to protect civilians. We want to support moderate groups precisely to boost their appeal and effectiveness over the extremists to whom my hon. Friend alluded. I assure him that the support we provide is carefully targeted and co-ordinated with like-minded countries, consistent with our laws and values, and based on rigorous analysis.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

I think on both sides of the House there is a sense of profound frustration and disgust at the continued violence in Syria, and consternation at the remarks made by President Assad over the weekend which—we agree with the Foreign Secretary—were “delusional”. As the Minister said, the death toll in Syria approaches 70,000 people; human rights groups have estimated that 4,000 people died last month alone. We have all been frustrated by the lack of progress at the UN Security Council to reach a collective position, and the pressure to urge for further action is understandable.

We welcome recent steps taken by the Syrian opposition coalition towards a political transition plan, and we must maintain the pressure on Assad. What is the Minister’s assessment of the current sanctions, and what steps can the international community take to ensure that they are comprehensively enforced?

Let me turn to UK support and the potential easing of the EU arms embargo in Syria. Labour Members have repeatedly stressed that all efforts must be focused on bringing an end to the violence, not fuelling the conflict. Given comments by the Foreign Secretary over the weekend, it seems there is some consideration by the British Government for the EU arms embargo to be amended further and—potentially—lifted. Will the Minister clarify today at the Dispatch Box whether that is the case?

Is the Minister aware that last week The New York Times reported that arms are being procured from a European source for the Syrian opposition, and that that is happening now? Is the Foreign Secretary aware of those allegations, and when did he and other Foreign Office Ministers become aware of them? What discussions has the Foreign Secretary had with his EU partners on the sourcing of arms for opposition parties in Syria?

In an interview this weekend the Foreign Secretary admitted that when it comes to lifting the arms embargo the

“risks of arms falling into the wrong hands is one of the great constraints. And it is one of the reasons we don’t do it now.”

At the same time, however, he said that he did not rule out anything for the future. What assurances or guarantees will the Government seek before lifting any arms embargo? The Foreign Secretary said that this was a matter of balancing risks, but will the Minister set out further details about how the balance of risk is currently being assessed?

We are aware that al-Qaeda is operating in Syria. What is the British Government’s assessment of the scale of its activity as part of the opposition to Assad? All of us in the House have the same objective: to end the deaths and the violence and to leave the Syrian people free to decide their own future in a peaceful Syria. All our efforts must be focused on that end.

[Mr Swire]

The hon. Gentleman raises a number of interesting points, but he is working on the premise that this is somehow about lifting the arms embargo. He will be able to question the Foreign Secretary more closely on that matter later this week, but I say again that this is about non-lethal equipment and technical assistance; it is not about lifting any arms embargo. It is worth reiterating the kind of aid that we have been giving. For example, 5 tonnes of water purification equipment, power generators and communications kit were delivered in December. We have agreed funding to train Syrians to gather evidence of torture and sexual abuse, and we have trained activists to form a network of peace-building committees across five cities in Syria—[Interruption.] I would have thought that the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) would have been interested in these humanitarian aspects. I shall address my points through the Speaker to the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas).

There has been a change, in that the new Secretary of State Kerry and the Foreign Secretary agreed when Mr Kerry visited London last week that, because of the deteriorating situation and the increasing loss of life, the situation in Syria demanded a stronger response from the international community. At the Friends of Syria meeting in Rome, the US announced an additional $60 million of non-lethal aid to the armed opposition to bolster popular support. We believe that those are all moves in the right direction.

The hon. Gentleman asked specifically what we could do to prevent arms from falling into what he described as the “wrong hands”. We are not providing arms to either side, as he well knows, and we urge countries that are providing arms to the Assad regime to desist from doing so and to stop contributing directly to the misery of that wonderful country.

Kurdish Genocide

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

We have had an absolutely outstanding debate. Everyone present knows that the cause of recognising the genocide in Kurdistan has noble, well-informed and eloquent torchbearers. They brought to the House speeches of great force and sincerity that made the case very eloquently indeed. Everyone who has spoken should be proud of the contribution they made. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) that I have listened closely and learned so much. I will consider what has been said extremely carefully.

I am conscious that I am the first person to speak who has not visited Kurdistan, for which I should perhaps apologise; I hope that will be remedied shortly. I have become aware, through my role on the Front Bench, of the great warmth that exists between the people of Kurdistan and the people of the United Kingdom. I have had many discussions about Kurdistan and heard many accounts of the importance of that relationship. What is striking about the strength of the relationship is that, despite the fact that there are aspects of it that bring shame on Britain, as we have heard, because previous Governments of all colours have done things we should not be proud of, the people of Kurdistan, in their current dealings and their warmth, have shown us forgiveness and respect, to their great credit, for which we should thank them very much.

I should start by congratulating the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi). One of the great advantages of this House is that people who come from different backgrounds bring their own experiences, cultures and knowledge to such subjects. He spoke eloquently, and with a power that was compelling. His personal connections are very special. He should be commended for persuading the Backbench Business Committee, which we should also thank, to allow the debate. We all know that this matter must be taken away, considered and reflected on before moving forward. By bringing it to the House’s attention, he has taken a big step in dealing with the issue and carrying it forward.

We heard an excellent speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), who brought to the debate her experiences from visits to the region and from the links between Sheffield and Kurdistan, which are building all the time. She referred to films she has seen of the terrible events that took place, which were referred to many times. I remember very clearly watching a “Newsnight” report about the Halabja attacks in the late 1980s, shortly after the attacks took place, which shocked me profoundly. The report showed a ferocity, an inhumanity and an extraordinary inability to treat people with respect that it was difficult to believe could exist. I would be interested to see the films she referred to, because the words that we have struggled to find today to explain how dreadful the events were cannot fully reflect the acts that took place.

The hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) speaks with great passion on these issues and brought his personal experience to bear on the facts. I think that his Jewish background adds a particular, and hugely relevant, context to the debate. Earlier this year I attended an excellent Holocaust memorial day service just across the road, and I was very conscious of the constant emphasis that the Jewish community places on the fact that the holocaust is not just about them. On that day, a Rwandan survivor explained the effect of the Rwandan genocide on her, and she spoke as eloquently as the holocaust survivors. It is very important that we see this as part of a broader picture.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) has an extremely long, impressive and consistent record on human rights issues, particularly in connection with Iraq. I first got to know her in the period after I came to the House between 2001 and 2003, when she was involved in the organisation Indict, which she mentioned. Not many people were involved in that campaign at the time—it became much more evident after 2003—but she was dogged, determined and absolutely committed to the cause of bringing people to justice. She pursued that from the time I met her in 2001 and is pursuing it today. She has a very long and very proud record. The consistency that she has shown on this issue right through from the 1980s—in fact, since 1977, she told us today—until now does her great credit. She is a very busy woman, so unfortunately she is not here at the moment. I am proud to put on the record the fact that she is a friend, and she has taught me a huge amount about this issue.

The hon. Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) has an advantage over me in that he has visited Kurdistan. He, too, made a compelling case. It is important that the public are aware that we are visiting these places and considering these issues, which are hugely important for all of us as parliamentarians. It does great credit to all Members present that they are here to take part in this important debate.

We then heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson)—I understand him like no one else in this House does. I remember a conversation that we had outside the Chamber when he described his complicated position on Iraq and the contradiction that he sees between his views on the Iraq war in 2003 and what he has discovered from the contacts that he has had subsequently. This is not a straightforward issue; it is a difficult one. Our job is to deal with difficult issues, such as the subject of this debate.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn)—another Member with a long and proud record of campaigning on these issues—said, it is a big step for this House and any Government to say that individual sets of incidents and events constitute a genocide. As we have heard, it is a step that has been taken by other Parliaments, but not necessarily by the Governments of the countries that those Parliaments represent.

The question of whether a set of incidents can be described as genocide has a legal status established under the 1948 convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide, which defines it as

“mass killings or other acts intended to destroy a particular group of people.”

The word is used colloquially, but its definition under international law is specific. Genocide requires both the material element of the act of killing and the mental element of the intention to destroy a particular group.

[Bob Stewart]

I have been involved in a genocide. To add to the hon. Gentleman’s point, a poor, frightened, absolutely terrified individual facing the agony of being killed does not give a damn about whether it is called a genocide or a crime against humanity—they are frightened beyond their wits. I am sure he will agree with that. These definitions have always worried me and that is what I thought when I was in Bosnia in 1992-93.

[Ian Lucas]

The hon. Gentleman speaks with passion and eloquence from his own experience, which we all respect. We recognise the humanity of what he says. We need to consider how best we can together use the hope behind what we are doing today to ensure that incidents on the scale of a genocide do not happen again. That is what we need to try to achieve. We should reflect on what has been said and consider how best we can prevent genocide from ever occurring again. One genocide is sufficient. We never want to see it again.

[Meg Munn]

I understand the legal issues that my hon. Friend has raised and I am sure that the Minister will address them. I am concerned that the apologies that Governments now often make for things that happened many years ago are not terribly relevant, because they relate to something that somebody else did. In this instance, however, a Government could recognise genocide. That is not particularly something that this or any previous Government have done, but perhaps now is the time, on the back of this debate, for Opposition and Government parties to come together and ask whether this and future Governments should have a process to recognise genocide, because that is important.

[Ian Lucas]

It certainly is important that such matters are dealt with collectively. We are an international community with international institutions and, in international situations such as the one we are discussing, the appropriate approach is to work through international justice bodies to recognise when certain circumstances amount to a genocide. We then need to use our institutions to establish the facts and their implications in law. The legal implications of recognising any set of events—not just those under discussion—as a genocide are considerable. They constitute a particular crime under international law, which imposes obligations on states to prevent and punish with regard to such circumstances.

If something that has happened in the past—such as the events under discussion—is defined as genocide, the question arises of whether retrospective action can be taken. It would be helpful if the Minister clarified whether it is his understanding that a statement that an act was genocide would have a retrospective effect and allow action to be taken against anyone who is held responsible for actions that took place in the 1980s.

We heard about the considerable progress that Kurdistan has made. That has built on the relationship that exists between this country and the Kurdistan region of Iraq. I hope that this debate will add to that relationship. There is a strong group of Members of this House who have spoken eloquently today and who have great respect for Kurdistan and the Kurdish people.

We must work together to reflect on our discussions today. We must also look at what action is being taken in other countries, whether by their Parliaments or Governments, on this issue of genocide in the Kurdish region and see what is the appropriate forum to take that forward.

[Mr Anderson]

My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) asked about practical things that the Opposition can do. Will the shadow Minister commit our party to entering discussions with representatives of the Kurdistan Regional Government based in this country to see whether they can help us to get evidence that would help to create a legal argument that we could present to the international community? Other countries could then say whether they think that it was genocide or not and give reasons why.

[Ian Lucas]

I would be pleased to meet representatives of the Kurdish Regional Government to discuss the issues that we have been debating and to see what barriers are in the way of this matter being taken forward. I would also be pleased to discuss this with the Minister to explore what further common ground there is on this issue, which is considered important by a number of Back Benchers from both our parties who have made an eloquent and compelling case.

We cannot reach conclusions today, but we have heard a compelling case. This is the start of the matter, not the end. We need to continue to discuss this in detail and to reflect on the best way to take it forward. That is best done collectively both within this country and internationally. We need to reflect on the action that other Parliaments have taken and consider what steps it would be best to take to deal with the appalling set of circumstances that the people of Kurdistan suffered in the 1980s. We must work together to ensure that their pain, suffering and grief is not shared by any other group of people in the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

Such extensions, and any prospect of building in the E1 area, would of course be extremely damaging to the prospect for a successful peace process. That is why it is so urgent. Now that the planning process for the E1 area has been unfrozen, a clock is ticking, with potentially disastrous consequences for the peace process.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

The Israeli Government’s response to Britain’s abstention at the UN was, in the words of the Foreign Secretary, “taking a step back”. Therefore, will he please discuss urgently with our European partners the co-ordinated response to the present situation on the ground and use the wish for Israeli to develop stronger trading relations with the European Union as a means of achieving progress in the middle east?

Overseas Territories (Governance)

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Thank you, Dr McCrea, for calling me to speak. It is a real pleasure to appear under your chairmanship; I think I am doing so for the first time.

I welcome the new Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds). I think that this is the first time we have had the opportunity to debate with each other; I suspect that the topic of today’s debate will not be the most controversial topic that we will address.

It has been a real pleasure to attend this debate, and I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) for securing it. He has kept me in order on many occasions in the past and it is a pleasure to hear him on the other side of the fence, talking about this important issue. We have had a very interesting debate.

I am a great fan of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which is a tremendous institution in Parliament. My own constituency of Wrexham has benefited massively from the CPA, because we have developed a very strong link with Lesotho in southern Africa as a direct result of a visit that I paid there in 2005. It led to very close links between schools in my constituency and in Lesotho, which is a developing country. As a direct result of the CPA visit that I made, Wrexham hosted the Lesotho Olympic team. That sort of link, which is between not only parliamentarians but constituencies and institutions within constituencies, is what we should be working to try to achieve with the overseas territories.

One of the real challenges of modern parliamentary life is that the focus of MPs is very much on their own constituencies or their own constituency work; sometimes that work does not extend beyond the borders of the constituency, let alone of the United Kingdom. We all know that the overseas territories are an intrinsic and central part of our history. That has been very evident in this debate—they are part of what makes the United Kingdom, and it is absolutely imperative that we recognise that and continue to have a strong and developing relationship with them.

We have heard today about how those links are carried forward through the CPA and, of course, through other avenues. However, it is also the case that, because of the disparate nature of the overseas territories and their geographical spread, it is very difficult for the overseas territories and those developing knowledge of democratic institutions to secure regular experience of elections of the type that we have. We have secured our experience in a country of 60 million people.

It is very important indeed that we work with the overseas territories to share our experience of elections. I think it was the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden who made the point that we can also learn from the overseas territories, and my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) made the same point. In an era of turnouts of 12% or 15% in some UK elections, we must not think that we are in a state of grace as far as dealing with elections is concerned. The enthusiasm of a novel election process, as we saw all those years ago in South Africa and as we see today in other places, tells us and the people of the UK that democracy is an important process, which needs to develop. We also need to bring that experience from other places to the UK.

What we as parliamentarians can offer is the benefit of our experience, and I strongly agree with my hon. Friend’s point about electoral registration officers. In an era when communication is becoming easier because of the development of the internet, it is possible to maintain relations that might not have been possible 40 years ago. When the right hon. Gentleman visited St Helena, the prospect of maintaining contact with individuals there was so remote as to have been virtually impossible, but that is now possible once a connection is made. I would like relations to be extended to not only parliamentarians but the communities they represent in the UK, so that we can pool our resources and secure the relationships that are so necessary to building good governance and democracy in the overseas territories.

It is important that parliamentarians should be involved. Increasingly, under the European Union, electoral observation tends to focus on European institutions rather than Parliament. One theme I want to pursue with the Minister is that I would like more parliamentarians to take part in electoral observation missions to Commonwealth countries and the overseas territories. Elected politicians bring a substantial benefit to the observation process, and it is essential in a multi-party democracy that they play a role, although not an exclusive one, in electoral observation missions. It is unfortunate that that role has diminished in recent years, and while civil servants from a particular institution often go on missions, politicians are sometimes excluded.

[Thomas Docherty]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one key advantage politicians have is not only that we can talk candidly, face to face, with fellow politicians, but that we have extensive experience as campaign workers before we are elected and during the process of being elected? We can therefore see what the wider political party is looking for from a process.

[Ian Lucas]

That is absolutely right. Elections in a democracy are about competition between parties. Campaigning is incredibly important, and politicians are much more familiar with that skill than even the most experienced electoral registration officer. It is therefore important that communication takes place, although the far-flung nature of the overseas territories makes it difficult for them to have the interactions that we have developed over the years. We should build strongly on our experience in that respect.

The other relevant issue—to be slightly more controversial —is financial transparency; I was pleased that it played an important part in the Foreign Office White Paper “The Overseas Territories: Security, Success and Sustainability”. The Government were clear about the importance of financial transparency, which is of great importance at present to my constituents and others across the country.

As democracy develops in the overseas territories, we must ensure that the transparency that goes with a well functioning democracy is also evident in their financial and taxation affairs. When we work with the overseas territories, and the British taxpayer makes a contribution to assist them, we cannot have a situation in which businesses and individual UK citizens might use them to avoid paying tax. We need to work with them to ensure that international principles on fair dealing in taxation matters are a central part of their developing democracy.

It is hugely important that the connection that the CPA has developed through visits over a number of years should continue. We should try to encourage more Members of Parliament to take part in such visits. There are many new Members, some of whom have arrived here only in the past month or so, and they need to know the importance of engaging with the overseas territories and with other countries beyond the UK and the important role that parliamentarians play in ensuring that good governance is spread across the world.

I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend for their hard work, for which they are not thanked often enough. There is huge respect abroad for the work of the CPA and the Inter-Parliamentary Union, and our colleagues abroad value the commitment of this Parliament—the mother of Parliaments—to developing institutions in countries that are building a level of democracy that we want to encourage.

I am pleased to support the thrust of the White Paper, which was published earlier this year. Clearly, it builds on the 1999 White Paper published by the then Foreign Secretary, Robin Cook, under the previous Government. The Opposition have noted the commitments made to the overseas territories, and we strongly support applying the principle of self-determination to them. We want to ensure that they have a close link with this country, but we also want, in an age of devolution, to ensure that they have sufficient autonomy to deal with their individual circumstances and to build a democratic system appropriate to them.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. Does he agree that the serious discussion we are having gives the lie to the general mockery that occurs in the press whenever Members of Parliament try to improve relations with, and democracy in, other parts of the world—particularly those closely associated with us?

[Ian Lucas]

That is certainly the case. That work is often unseen; it is demanding and difficult and involves much discussion and thought. Much assistance is given to overseas territories, which have the difficult task of designing government—something that has taken 1,000 years in this place. It is hugely important to share our experience.

[Thomas Docherty]

My hon. Friend is setting out a compelling argument. Does he agree that lending our expertise to promote local development is about not just political expertise but civil service expertise? I am thinking, for example, of the work the Department of Energy and Climate Change can do to help the Falkland Islands as they prepare for hydrocarbon exploration, and the work the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs can do to help protect the fisheries and the natural environment in the Caribbean.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Lucas]

The White Paper uses the word “partnership”, which is something that we need to build on. Owing to the size of our country and our experience, we have resources and expertise that the overseas territories cannot draw on; given our historical relationship and our links, it is important to share that expertise and work with them. We need to build a strong relationship that will endure, although it will change as democracy and good governance develop. The Opposition are committed to the continuing relationship with the overseas territories, to building good governance, to developing institutions and representation appropriate to each individual territory, and to working with the Government in taking that important agenda forward.

European Union (Croatian Accession and Irish Protocol) Bill

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Emma Reynolds]

There is no clear precedent with regard to the accession of new member states. I believe that such a provision goes against the accession treaty with Croatia that has been negotiated with the 26 other member states and our Government. An amendment of this kind would send us back to the start of negotiations. All 16 member states that have already approved the treaty, and we and the remaining member states, would have to go back to the drawing board, along with Croatia, yet again to reopen what has been a very long and arduous process—a thorough process, and rightly so—for Croatia in its negotiations to join the European Union. This is not like the Irish protocol. It is not a post-factual situation—it has to apply from now on—and it is part of the accession treaty that we are discussing. We cannot just alter it and expect something to happen in future that would help us. I totally disagree with the hon. Gentleman.

I would welcome clarification of this matter, given that Opposition Front Benchers do not have a whole army of Foreign Office civil servants to help us—

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

You’ve got me.

[Emma Reynolds]

I have my hon. Friends, obviously, whose help and advice are always most welcome.

I look forward to the Minister’s response, but I am pretty confident that my interpretation is correct, and we therefore do not support the amendment.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 30th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

That is an understandable question. As my hon. Friend knows, we have condemned the expansion of settlements. The settlements are what is bringing about the urgency of the issue, because they are making a two-state solution in the coming years less feasible. However, I reiterate that the best hope of achieving a solution is a major push by the United States in the coming months and over the coming year. Everything else is second best to that.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

But what progress has the Foreign Secretary made by failing to adopt a position on this matter?

[Mr Hague]

I do not think we are short of positions on this matter, and I have just explained the Government’s position on it. It is one of the great foreign policy frustrations for this country and for people across the world, but as we know, and as all previous Administrations have known, there is not a magic or overnight solution to it. The solution is negotiations on a two-state solution, and we now have an opportunity to make a major push for that. If that does not happen, we will be in a new and more dangerous situation, and that will require many nations to reconsider their approach.