Somalia
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
I thank all those who have contributed to the debate, in which we have all learned something, ranging from people’s membership of the barmy army to people’s reaction to Select Committee visits to Somaliland. It has been very interesting and I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I also welcome the UK Government’s decision to host the international conference on Somalia, and I congratulate the Foreign Secretary and his team on bringing forward the important discussion that is to take place.
We have heard much about the scale of the task facing the conference. We know that Somalia has not had a properly functioning Government since 1991 and that it is the world’s most failed state. It has been the object of failed military intervention and has received tens of millions of pounds of UK aid and international aid, and it is the source of the world’s most serious piracy problem. We all know the difficulties and that there is a transitional federal Government, and I think we all accept that they have failed in their role. It is key to the future of Somalia that some form of functioning Government is established. It is for the Somali people to solve the tremendous problems they face, but unless and until there is a mechanism in the form of a Government to provide sustenance and security for the people of Somalia, I fear that despite the best efforts of countries around the world and of the people in non-governmental organisations who contribute so much on a day-to-day basis, this problem will continue. It is important that we as parliamentarians have the opportunity to present our experiences and our different opinions about what needs to be addressed at the conference.
We have heard contributions based on an enormous wealth of experience. We heard from the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), the Chairman of the Select Committee, whose important report was used by my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) in the composition of his excellent speech. Like me, he learned a great deal from the report. I thank the Committee for the maps that were included; they were very useful in my preparation for the debate.
The key issue of piracy is a symptom of the political situation in Somalia and we need further clarification from the Government about the rules of engagement, which cause practical problems for those who have to face incidents of piracy.
We heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael)—a very good friend—from whom I benefited in private discussions about Somalia and Somaliland. He explained the diplomatic approach of the all-party group on Somalia and Somaliland, and why its title has both names—a useful tactic that the Minister might adopt. It is vital that we look at Somaliland, as there are clearly lessons to be learned from that part of Somalia, which has managed to construct, albeit over a protracted period, a functioning form of government. That point was well made several times during the debate.
The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), in his interesting speech, referred to the people of Somalia using their own institutions to develop governance in their country. That is crucial. It is clear from my reading around the subject that there is distrust of, and disbelief in, Governments among the people of Somalia—not surprisingly—particularly Governments imposed from outside, whether from countries such as the United Kingdom and the United States or from African countries, even those who are offering help and assistance in the form of troops.
We should use examples from Somaliland in discussions between the parties who will meet at the conference. It is good news that the President of Somaliland will attend and that there will be dialogue. There can be no substitute for people coming together to try to find a way forward.
The hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) gave us great insight into feelings in Somalia. We heard an interesting contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali). She talked about development. We need a governmental framework to bring it about. No matter how hard the charitable institutions and the NGOs try, they need a functioning Government to create a positive future.
A range of issues were raised, and I shall not have time to refer to all the contributions. I highlight the speech of the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), who spoke about the important issue of female genital mutilation. That is another example that shows the need for a governmental structure that can address a particularly horrific practice. If there is no Government, it cannot be confronted. The problem is very hard to deal with and the hon. Lady explained interestingly and clearly the difficulties, even when there is a Government, with legislation achieving the opposite of what was intended. That is sadly familiar, as it has happened once or twice in this place.
It is important that we recognise that Somalia needs a functioning Government if it is to address the problems it faces. It is for that reason that we have this window of opportunity, to use the Foreign Secretary’s phrase, and I think that it is important that we seize it.
It is also important at this stage to clarify the Government’s intentions. We are holding the conference now because we have this window of opportunity, but I would like more detail on the format of the conference—if not today, perhaps in writing. For example, who will attend, why will particular people attend, and what are the Government’s expectations and goals? It is important that we manage those expectations. This is a hugely difficult problem, as we all know, and there is a danger of creating expectations that are too high and that, if dashed, could make the present situation, as appalling as it is, even worse. The history of the past 20 years is littered with genuine and determined attempts by many dedicated people to address Somalia’s problems, but they have not succeeded, so this is a hugely difficult task.
We need to learn from local examples where positive steps have been taken, and Somaliland is one such example that we have heard about today. It is particularly ironic that Somaliland seems to have a Government who exist and function but are not acknowledged, whereas Somalia has a Government who are acknowledged but do not seem to exist.
What are the legitimate expectations of the UK Government towards the conference, and how will they address accusations of interfering as a former colonial power? Clearly we cannot have a conference on the matter in Mogadishu, but we must be wary of creating a perception that a solution is being imposed from outside. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) referred to the congress of Berlin, which also crossed my mind when preparing for the debate. We must present the conference in the correct way to both the world at large and, most importantly, the people of Somalia. We need to think very hard about how the conference will be presented in Somalia itself. How will it engage not only politicians in Somalia, but civil society? Civil society in Somalia will be very important, because the politicians have failed in the past. If the conference involved only politicians, it might not be perceived as successful and so might not succeed in the way we want it to.
What format will the conference take, in so far as the different governmental institutions within Somalia are concerned? What role will the Government or representatives of Somaliland and Puntland have in the conference, and how will they contribute to the wider discussion on Somalia? Many questions need to be asked about the involvement of international institutions, because they are heavily and actively involved in Somalia, as we all know, from the United Nations downwards, and African Union countries have troops on the ground. I understand that they will be involved in the conference, but what role will they play, and what will their contribution be to the discussions? My hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) mentioned the diaspora, its contribution within the United Kingdom and its interest in the conference and how it can contribute to the debate. I was delighted to hear that the Minister attended the meeting in Islington North this morning, where I am sure he received a lot of advice and information. Some pieces of advice might have been more useful than others, but I am sure that he will make the judgment well.
It is important, however, that we engage with the Somali community in Britain, which I know from my postbag is very interested in what is going on and wants to contribute as positively as it can to the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston, who has just been elected to the House, carried the whole Chamber when she made that point, and she had two supportive interventions, which is more than I have achieved in 11 years, so congratulations to her. I missed her maiden speech, but she certainly did very well today, and it was tremendous to hear.
I know the Minister, who will be winding up the debate in a few moments, very well. He is a dogged and determined opening batsman, who will try very hard to go the distance with a long innings. I am sure that he will do very well, and I should like to have some answers to my questions, if not today then perhaps in writing. He has the good wishes of Her Majesty’s Opposition for the work that he is undertaking, and he knows, from the voices that he has heard in the Chamber today, that he has a lot of support in what is a very difficult task.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Alistair Burt
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to put the focus on the economy. When we talk about the changes that have taken place in the Arab world we concentrate on the political, but unless the economics are right they will undermine the political changes that have been made. The UK provides support multilaterally through the G8, the Deauville partnership and the European neighbourhood partnership, and we have offered support for capacity building right across the board, including on constitution drafting and issues affecting economic reform.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Loathing of corruption was the immediate catalyst of the Arab spring, but the Tunisian Association for Financial Transparency states that the British Government need to do more to assist the current Tunisian Government by providing information, particularly about finance in the British overseas territories and the transactions of the previous Tunisian Government. What discussions has the Minister had with the current Tunisian Government about access to the British overseas territories and their finances?
UK Relations: Libya
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on securing this timely debate.
I have limited time. I start with Robin Cook, as did the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham. With respect to him, he misquoted Robin Cook, as people so often do. Robin Cook, for whom I have great admiration, said on Monday 12 May 1997:
“The Labour Government does not accept that political values can be left behind when we check in our passports to travel on diplomatic business. Our foreign policy must have an ethical dimension”.
As the debate has progressed, that matter has become even more relevant to today’s discussion. The debate has been more backward-looking than I expected, but it is helpful to consider some of the points made as we look forward to the future of Libya and progress in that country, which hon. Members from all parties welcome.
I am sorry that there has been a partisan element to this debate, because I know that the speakers, whom I respect, believe in an ethical dimension to foreign policy. They seem, however, to have short memories. Robin Cook established his reputation in the arms to Iraq debate in the 1990s. That debate involved a Conservative Government, and—
Mr James Gray (in the Chair)
Order. We are drifting a little wide of the topic. We should focus on UK relations with Libya.
Mr James Gray (in the Chair)
Order. My ruling is that we return to the question under debate, namely UK relations with Libya. Nothing else is in order.
Ian Lucas
I accept your ruling, Mr Gray, although Hansard will record our previous discussion of other matters.
We need a balanced approach when considering the history of different parties’ approach to foreign affairs. From the outset, the Leader of the Opposition made clear his support for the Prime Minister’s decision to support, quite rightly, the actions in Libya. When difficult interventions were happening in Libya, he supported the Prime Minister throughout. Of course, there were times when particular aspects of policy were not succeeding, when the Opposition held the Government to account, as is our role.
There is now a broader consensus across the House on the ethical dimension of foreign policy. It is unhelpful to misrepresent the previous Government’s position—
Mr James Gray (in the Chair)
Order. The hon. Gentleman must now return to the question under debate, or he will resume his seat. We are discussing UK relations with Libya, not the ethical foreign policy of the previous Labour Government, or indeed any Government. The question is UK relations with Libya and nothing else.
Ian Lucas
I am delighted that last week, the UN voted unanimously to end the no-fly zone, which has now been lifted. The new resolution is another important landmark towards Libya’s democratic future. The state has a historic opportunity to build on human rights and to ensure that freedoms are protected. We in the United Kingdom have a great tradition of working with developing democracies to try to establish democratic values, and I know that the Minister will support that.
Britain’s future involvement in Libya is important. The shadow Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander), warned in September how a liberated country can quickly become a lawless and violent one. We have seen the end of armed conflict in Libya, and we are now seeing a steady transition to democratic government. The country must now embark on the delicate process of developing institutions. We know from our own history how difficult that is in the aftermath of civil war—Oliver Cromwell was not able to build enduring institutions in the UK. The problems that Libya now faces are serious, so we need to ensure—I think that the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) put this well—that the Libyan people are at the forefront of addressing them. It is important that we support their work in developing institutions.
Will the Minister make clear how he sees our role with Libya developing? Will the emphasis be on bilateral relations with Libya, or will we continue to work through NATO or the UN? What is the current format for the working relationship with the new Libyan Government, and how will that develop?
There is a great appetite in the House for developing relations with Libya. It is a matter for not only the Government, but Parliament as a whole. I am sure that there will be interest throughout Parliament in developing the nascent democracy in Libya. There is great interest in establishing working links, as well as economic links, with Libya. Companies in my constituency already export to Libya and have done so for a number of years, which, to pick up what the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham has said, is something that we need to develop. There is no shame in that. The Defence Secretary was right to say that there are business opportunities in Libya, and I am pleased to hear that Lord Green has already visited Libya and is assisting in the rebuilding of that country in a way that suggests that we can contribute as a nation. We have an opportunity in both the democratic and commercial spheres to assist with the development of Libya.
Jim Shannon
After the Kuwait war and the tremendous contribution made by British armed forces to that victory, a number of British companies in Kuwait felt that they would have an economic advantage, but it did not happen. Following other contributors to this debate, does the hon. Gentleman feel that more could be done to ensure that British companies benefit?
Ian Lucas
It is important that we grasp the opportunity to contribute commercially, which means creating jobs in our own constituencies. We, as parliamentarians, have a responsibility to be outward-looking on occasions such as this. Perhaps we should not focus purely on issues such as Europe, when big issues are happening around the world. We should look at the opportunities in Africa, China and beyond. It is important that, in these extraordinary times, we use the increasing communication with countries such as Libya for the benefit of our own constituents.
Bob Stewart
The business infrastructure in Libya is excellent, if we consider that it is in Africa. We should waste no opportunity to get in there again. I know that a number of companies are already there and that British companies have been kind of operating throughout the troubles over the past six months. I totally endorse what the hon. Gentleman has to say.
Ian Lucas
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s contribution. There are opportunities in the commercial sphere. A number of organisations have been referred to, such as the British Council and the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, and I add the BBC World Service, which can make a positive contribution to building democracy in Libya. We have a huge opportunity.
I have not visited Libya, but it is extremely important and has massive potential. It is a neighbour of countries that are becoming increasingly important, such as Egypt. Will the Minister touch on how he sees those relationships within the new Mediterranean developing as we progress? We are in extraordinary times in north Africa and the middle east, because the changes are having profound effects on our relations and on the lives of and individual possibilities for the people of Libya.
We have long-established relationships with Libya, for many of the reasons that have been referred to in this debate. We should use those opportunities to assist the people of Libya, who must lead what happens. We must be prepared to stand ready to assist whenever we are asked. We have much to give.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Jeremy Browne)
Thank you, Mr Gray, for allowing me the opportunity to conclude the debate. It is an honour for me to serve for the first time under your chairmanship and to follow the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas). I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), not only for giving us the opportunity to discuss this important and topical issue, but for his ongoing interest in Libya. I apologise on behalf of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), who has specific responsibilities for north Africa and the middle east, and would, in normal circumstances, reply to this debate. He is, however, travelling, so I will respond as his colleague in the Foreign Office.
As has been made clear, events in Libya over recent months and days have offered the opportunity to change radically the United Kingdom’s relationship with Libya, to the benefit of both British and Libyan citizens. The end of the Gaddafi regime, the national transitional council’s declaration of liberation just over a week ago, and the end of the UN-mandated no-fly zone just yesterday mark the beginning of a new era in Libya’s history. After 42 years of brutal repression under Gaddafi, Libyans can now look forward to a brighter, more secure and prosperous future, and a new start in Libya’s relationship with the international community, including us in the United Kingdom.
In responding to the many points that have been made on the nature of the new relationship, I would like to focus on two aspects. The first is the role that the United Kingdom has played to date in helping bring this opportunity about. Secondly—the hon. Member for Wrexham made this point—I want to focus on our plans for future relations, as well as dwell on the recent past.
The Government are proud of the role that Britain has played in establishing and implementing the NATO mission to protect Libyan civilians. The international community, led by the United Kingdom, stepped in because it was necessary, legal and right to do so. We could not stand by and let Gaddafi commit atrocities against his own people in order to cling to power. We are likewise proud of the role that the United Kingdom has played in building international support for the new Libya, not least through the unanimous adoption of UN Security Council resolutions 2009 and 2016 in recent weeks.
Over recent months, at the request of the national transitional council, the United Kingdom has also offered advice on stabilisation and committed more than £20 million of assistance to support the NCT’s stabilisation plans. In April, we opened a mission in Benghazi, and were among the first diplomatic missions to re-establish ourselves in Tripoli after its liberation in August. Together with the French President, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was the first Head of Government to visit Libya after Tripoli’s fall. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary accompanied him on that visit, and also made a separate visit last month, when he was able to announce the formal reopening of the British embassy and the appointment of Sir John Jenkins as the new British ambassador to Libya.
Although the Government are proud of that role, we have also been clear throughout that it has been a Libyan-led revolution. That is as true of post-conflict stabilisation as it was during the conflict. Now that liberation has been declared, Libya has an historic opportunity to create a peaceful, democratic and prosperous state, where human rights are protected and all its people benefit from its considerable natural resources. As the Foreign Secretary said last week, that would be a fitting tribute to those who sacrificed their lives for future generations. We welcome the clear and consistent messages from council leaders cautioning against disorder and, crucially, against reprisals, as mentioned during our discussions.
Establishing the new Libya will involve building infrastructure in every aspect of life, for example: political democracy and inclusion, the rule of law, security, migration, commerce and civil society. It is for the Libyan people to decide how to govern themselves. The UK will continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Libyan people in that process, as they form a transitional Government within 30 days of liberation and rebuild a free and democratic country.
In a moment, I will touch on our plans for helping Libya in how it goes about that process, but, first, I will address an issue that straddles both Libya’s past and future, an important element of our relations with the new Libya and something on which we have been working with the NTC over recent months: the crimes committed by the Gaddafi regime. That has been a particular focus of the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham not only in this debate, but over many months and years. Our relationship with Libya has been scarred over the decades by the horrific actions of the Gaddafi regime, including the killing of WPC Yvonne Fletcher outside the Libyan embassy in London in 1984, the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie in 1988 and Gaddafi’s support of IRA terrorism in Northern Ireland and here on the UK mainland.
A new Libya offers the chance to revitalise the relationship between Britain and the new Libyan authorities. Part of that process must involve resolving those outstanding so-called legacy issues. As my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have made clear both to the new Libyan authorities and the House, that is an important priority for our Government. The Foreign Secretary last raised those issues with Chairman al-Jalil of the national transitional council during his visit to Tripoli on 17 October, just a fortnight ago.
The Metropolitan police and Dumfries and Galloway police will return to Libya to conclude their investigations once an interim Government are in place. We will seek restitution and reconciliation for the victims of IRA violence. Chairman al-Jalil and Prime Minister Jibril have assured us on many occasions that they will work with us on those issues but, as they have pointed out—I am sure hon. Members will think that they have done so with valid reason—they need to form a Government and have functioning Ministries to be able to deliver their side of that commitment.
Mr Browne
The short answer is no. I have not had a clear indication, but I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern. If I can sum up the sentiment of the debate, I think we all feel uncomfortable about the manner of Gaddafi’s death, even if we do not lament his passing. I, and I am sure the whole House, hope that Libya’s future will be based on the rule of law, not reprisals. Although Colonel Gaddafi was the most high-profile Libyan, I hope that his death is not indicative of the state of justice and the construction of society in the new Libya that will unfold in the months and years ahead.
As well as resolving issues from Libya’s past, we will work closely with the new authorities on the issues critical to Libya’s future. Security is a key concern, even though the new authorities are making steady progress and police are returning to the streets. The national transitional council has planned for a proper police force and a national army that integrates many of the revolutionary forces. We are offering help in that process, including through the presence of a British policing adviser and with communications and logistics for the new police forces. We are helping the NTC to secure and disable man-portable air defence systems, and we are supporting mine clearance in Misrata, Benghazi and other affected areas. We will also offer technical advice to help with the destruction of remaining Libyan chemical weapons stocks under the auspices of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons.
The Government are also working with the International Criminal Court in The Hague to pursue and bring to justice the remaining indictees, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi and Abdullah al-Senussi. We want to ensure that they are held accountable for violations of human rights and international humanitarian law, and for the attacks targeting the civilian population perpetrated by them. We are encouraging all Libya’s neighbours who are ICC state parties and have a legal obligation under the Rome statute to co-operate with the ICC, including on enforcing ICC arrest warrants should those individuals enter their territory. UN Security Council resolution 1970 urges all UN member states to support the ICC investigation and implement the arrest warrants. We are making that position very clear.
The UK has played a leading role throughout in responding to Libya’s humanitarian problems. We have provided support through the International Committee of the Red Cross and supplied surgical teams and medicines to treat up to 5,000 war-wounded patients. We have also brought 50 severely wounded Libyans to the UK and are providing treatment in the UK to another 50 Libyans who have suffered amputations during the conflict. UK medical experts are also working with Libyan medical staff and are training them in the care of those who have been brought to the UK, so that they can take that knowledge back to Libya and work with others who have suffered such terrible injuries in the fighting.
Women and young people have an important role to play in rebuilding Libya. We are engaging with women across different sections of Libyan society to determine how best to provide support. That includes looking at the issues that women face as a result of the conflict and how women can participate in developing a new Libya.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Alistair Burt
There are two issues there. First, the unconscionable detention of Gilad Shalit by Hamas was no cause for any victory celebration. We certainly welcome the fact that he has been released and hope that it indicates at least some degree of movement between the two parties. Ultimately, of course, what will benefit all is a negotiated settlement that leads to an independent Palestine side by side with a sovereign and recognised Israel. All the work that the United Kingdom does is to ensure that that is the most likely outcome of the various discussions that are taking place through the Quartet and the UN alike.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Businesses in the Palestinian territories repeatedly stress that economic progress fundamentally depends on political progress. As the position of the UK Government is to support the establishment of a viable Palestinian state, will the Minister update us on their position on the recognition of such a state by the United Nations?
Alistair Burt
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his position on the Front Bench. We know that he will acquit himself of his duties extremely well.
Economically, an ultimate settlement of the issue between Israel and Palestine will bring benefits to all and is essential. We play our part by supporting the economy, with some £80 million this year going to the west bank and Gaza. However, the ultimate settlement will depend not so much on any universal declaration as on the process of negotiation. At present there has been no resolution put forward for the United Kingdom to vote on, and it is still not clear whether the UN process would be through the Security Council alone or through the General Assembly. However, the UK will always use its vote in the best interests of ensuring that the likelihood of negotiations towards a final settlement is assisted rather than hindered.
Oral Answers to Questions
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
14. What his objectives are for the next Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
The Government are committed to reinvigorating the Commonwealth and strengthening it as a focus for democracy, development and prosperity. We see the next Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting as a defining moment for the future of the Commonwealth and we look forward to the eminent persons group’s recommendations.
Ian Lucas
There are 11,000 people on death row in Commonwealth countries, and four people were executed in Commonwealth countries last year. Will the Secretary of State raise this issue at the meeting to which he referred, place it on the agenda and do something about making the Commonwealth a more civilised place?
Mr Hague
The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue. The agenda for CHOGM is not yet decided, but I shall certainly give strong consideration to his point. Since the change of Government, this country has maintained its policy on the death penalty around the world, and we will continue to pursue it with our Commonwealth partners. One of the recommendations that we expect from the final report of the eminent persons group is about strengthening Commonwealth values—and this matter is part of that, so I shall seriously consider his proposal.
European Union Bill
Ian C. Lucas Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Emma Reynolds
I thank the Minister for Europe for that intervention. I will say two things about it. The first is that I do not remember the 1983 Conservative party manifesto. The second is that the Single European Act involved a massive transfer of power with the introduction of the four freedoms—goods, capital, people and services. The Maastricht treaty also involved a massive transfer of power from Westminster to Brussels through the inclusion of justice and home affairs within the competence of the European Union treaties. I would argue that both those treaties were much more significant than the Lisbon treaty. We will not take lessons from a party which has never, within my lifetime, granted a referendum to this country on—
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend remember the 1983 Labour general election manifesto?
Emma Reynolds
I have read it, and it is unforgettable, but perhaps that is not for this debate. We have become more sensible since then.