Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 3(5)

Jess Phillips Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Lady makes an important point. I can assure her that we have been engaging with a range of organisations, including human rights organisations, women’s organisations and campaigns—[Interruption.] I would perhaps have to write to her with more detail.

Turning to the issue of abortion, one has only to look at the passionate and sincere demonstrations in recent weeks on both sides of this issue to appreciate that it remains a highly sensitive matter in Northern Ireland. I understand that there are many people in Northern Ireland who may, as the hon. Lady says, welcome the change. There are also many who would not. I would prefer, as would the Government, that the Northern Ireland Assembly was considering reforms of Northern Ireland’s abortion law. This is, as I have noted, a highly sensitive devolved issue and as such it would be best addressed by Northern Ireland’s locally elected and locally accountable political representatives.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

The Minister has stated that he would prefer it if the Northern Ireland Executive dealt with this issue, and he seems very much to be focusing on abortion. Does he feel the same way about the same-sex marriage provisions?

[Mr Walker]

On both issues, it is clear that we will take action should the deadline be reached, but I think that both issues would be best addressed by the Northern Ireland Assembly taking responsibility itself and delivering on the requirements. I support the right to same-sex marriage and have voted for it consistently, but I would prefer that locally elected representatives were able to deliver it in the most suitable way, no doubt arguing about it passionately and with conviction on all sides.

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[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

First, let me say that I believe very firmly in the principle of devolution for Northern Ireland. As someone who served in the Northern Ireland Assembly for 12 years and on his local council for some 26 years, I can attest to the fact that local people having power in their own hands to shape local outcomes is worth having.

During the period 2007 to 2017, representatives from the main parties in Northern Ireland worked together to deliver for our people. I believe that all parties who served in the Government can point to significant achievements in improvements to our public services, keeping the cost of university education down, and record foreign direct investment. Devolution works. It is a source of profound sadness and frustration to me that Northern Ireland has gone so long without a fully functioning Executive and institutions. The absence of the Executive has had a damaging effect on our society. Essential reforms of public services, particularly healthcare, are waiting to be actioned, as my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) said. Decisions about the future of our education system have also been left to wait. This is not good enough.

It is important to state in simple terms why we are in this position. The decision to collapse the institutions was taken by one party—and one party, by refusing to return to them, is preventing Northern Ireland from having a devolved Administration. Hon. and right hon. Members need to know that there can sometimes be a tendency to blame the two parties—Sinn Féin and the DUP—by saying, “A plague on both your houses.” This is a lazy analysis. The truth is that my party, the DUP, stands ready and willing to return to Stormont tomorrow. We have no red lines; we have no preconditions.

For everyone’s information, I understand that a recall of the Assembly has been asked for by different individuals across Northern Ireland and the parties have to respond to that. Just so that everyone understands what that means, if we were able to have a recall of the Assembly at Stormont on Monday, a First Minister and a Deputy First Minister would have to be in place so that they could make these decisions. That is what the people who contact me want to see. That is what this House should be talking about—devolution that can actually work. The absence of devolution is the greatest instability in Northern Ireland. It is important in a post-conflict society like ours that political vacuums are not allowed to develop. Local politicians working strongly together is the surest way to deliver stability, which is so important for our people but also for potential investors in the Province.

The abortion section of this report is quite simply mind-blowing. I speak today unapologetically on behalf of the 100,000 children who live today—who have a life today—because of the legislation that we have in Northern Ireland. If that had been changed when it was proposed before, those 100,000 children would not be alive today and would not be contributing to society. The proposal that the women of Northern Ireland should be subject to great indignity between 22 October and 31 March would be deemed wholly unacceptable by any self-respecting democracy, including Great Britain.

[Jess Phillips]

I wonder on what evidence the hon. Gentleman is basing the idea of the children walking around today. As somebody who has myself had an abortion, I can guarantee that had I had the child that I aborted, my son Danny would not be walking around today, so where is the evidence for what he is suggesting?

[Jim Shannon]

I can very clearly state the evidence. The evidence is on record. It has been agreed by Government bodies that the figure of 100,000 is correct. The hon. Lady can sneer, smile and laugh, but the figures are on record. I am very happy to put them on record again to make sure: 100,000 children live today because we do not have the abortion legislation that there is here on the mainland.

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[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I had not intended to speak. I do not know that this necessarily needs to be an argument about the rights and wrongs of abortion, although it seems to have strayed into that.

I start with the point that we are now in a Trumpian time, when we talk about big issues on Twitter rather than in these Chambers. The Secretary of State commented on Twitter that the Government had discussed this issue with Church groups. I ask the Minister what other health matters on the UK mainland and in Northern Ireland we have discussed with Church groups. I wonder whether on, for example, the hormone replacement therapy crisis—there is a lack of HRT—the Government have spoken to St Mary’s Church in Moseley, Birmingham.

[Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Jess Phillips]

Not at the moment.

[Maria Caulfield]

rose—

[Jess Phillips]

I don’t have to give way if I don’t want to. I shall give way when I am ready.

I wonder whether the Secretary of State has spoken to any Church groups about medicinal cannabis.

[Maria Caulfield]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Jess Phillips]

I will. Let’s go for it.

[Maria Caulfield]

The hon. Lady may not be aware of many of the sensitive issues in Northern Ireland, but Church groups have been talked to particularly around historical institutional abuse. Many young children were abused by Church institutions. It is a particularly sensitive issue, and we are asking the Churches to be involved in the compensation process.

[Jess Phillips]

My father is from Northern Ireland and I have grown up in the shadow of some of the issues of Northern Ireland, given where I come from. I understand the issues incredibly well, and the problems that Northern Ireland has faced over the years, including with the Church and institutional abuse. There is a difference between talking about institutional abuse that the Church was a perpetrator of with Church groups and discussing whether we should file prescriptions for certain things with them. The point I am making is that there is no other health issue in this country that we would first discuss with Church groups, so why is this clinical, health matter being discussed with Church groups rather than clinicians or women’s groups? I ask the Minister to let us know. I am sure that the people who scurry along to the Minister with bits of paper can tell us which women’s groups the Government have spoken to—here we go. I will be fascinated to hear the answer.

[Emma Little Pengelly]

Very often there are matters, including in healthcare, that touch on life and death, in which the Churches become involved—for example, proposals for end-of-life issues. Many Churches have come forward because members of their congregations are midwives and nurses. There is an absence of any reference to conscientious objection, which is common—for example, there is a case in the Republic of Ireland. There are legitimate reasons for members of congregations across the Church community to get involved, not just in the life and death issues, which they are also concerned about, as many people are on these Benches and across Northern Ireland.

[Jess Phillips]

I absolutely do not doubt that all sorts of organisations have people in their congregations, in this instance, or in their number who lobby them. Lots of women lobby me every day from Northern Ireland, from every constituency over there represented on these Benches, asking me not to forget about the women of Northern Ireland and asking me to stand and give voice to their voice. I totally understand why Church groups might also want to give their voice. But I have never heard a Secretary of State tell me that they have been discussing this particular clinical health matter with Church groups. I do not mind if they discuss it with Church groups, to be honest, as long as they also discuss it with women’s rights groups: Women’s Aid Northern Ireland, for example, who have very strong opinions on this, specifically in the cases of victims of domestic abuse, or the rape crisis centres in Northern Ireland. I very much hope that every single one of those women’s rights groups, equal to any Church group, was consulted. I look forward to hearing from the Minister how that was done.

I also ask the Minister how he would feel if he had to have an examination that he felt a little bit uncomfortable about—I will not embarrass him by naming some of them—and he had to get on a plane and go to Belfast to have it, and not just that, but to have any treatment. I ask him now to imagine that he had not had to go to Belfast and that he was in lovely Worcester, a fine place in the midlands, and that he went to the doctor to ask a question about something that was wrong—again, I will not embarrass him, but let us say something about his fertility, or because he did not want to have children any more—and the doctor told him that he could no longer continue the conversation because if he did he would be criminalised. That would never happen here. My husband went to have a vasectomy; if it had happened in Northern Ireland nobody would be criminalised for that, yet when a woman wants to talk about her fertility that is exactly what happens.

[Martin Whitfield]

To take that one step further, what if someone was unable to travel because they did not have any photographic ID, because they had childcare that needed to be taken care of, or because they were in a relationship where, because of its nature, they were desperately worried about the other person finding out the situation?

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[Jess Phillips]

My hon. Friend makes an incredible point, and that is something we were told again and again when I and colleagues from across the House visited Northern Ireland with the Women and Equalities Committee. We absolutely met Church groups and pro-life groups, but we also met women who had been victims and had not been able to escape. We met migrant women who would not have had the paperwork to travel. We met lots of women who told us how tortuous the journey had been, as we heard earlier.

I think—in fact I do not just think, I know, because this House has voted for it—that this House wants the situation to change. This House wants things to change under the auspices of the powers in Northern Ireland, but that has not happened before this date. I therefore seek some more assurances from the Minister that this is not an issue that can just be given back to the Assembly halfway through. One of our colleagues from Northern Ireland made the point earlier that if a recall is successful over the next few days, there would be a First Minister in place if the Assembly is recalled as opposed to the Executive being formed—[Hon. Members: “Nobody said that.”] I am afraid somebody definitely did say that.

[Jim Shannon]

What I said was that if there was a recall of the Assembly on Monday—it takes 30 Members for that to happen—the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will have to be nominated. Only then can it go forward. That is what I said; Hansard will prove that.

[Jess Phillips]

I retract, then; that was not how I heard it. So even if the Assembly is recalled, unless the First Minister can be nominated, as has been explained, we are still in exactly the same position as we are today where our legislation continues to roll over.

I ask the Minister to understand why people—women mainly, but lots of people in this House—have felt the need to come here and make these representations, and why we feel more nervous about this issue than we do about equal marriage. No mention has been made of that issue. My experience in this House is that a woman’s right to choose is, for some reason, much more difficult for people to deal with than the idea that you can love who you want, although both have been difficult over the years. I ask the Minister specifically to say that there is nothing going on that we should have to be concerned about, because it very, very much seems to us and to the women of Northern Ireland who have been in touch with us today that that is what is going on.