Post Office Board and Governance

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 28th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Yes, of course I would be very happy to meet the hon. Lady and her constituent. Given what the hon. Lady has said, the place for her constituent to go is the Horizon shortfall scheme, which will be happy to look at that particular situation. Of the 2,417 people who applied to the original scheme, 100% have had offers and 84% have accepted those offers, so she can be assured that there will be fairness. We are looking to ensure that the scheme is fair and is seen to be fair.

The other schemes are also delivering outcomes more quickly than they were. There were 106 claims in the group litigation order scheme; 80 offers have been accepted, and compensation for overturned convictions is a fixed-sum award of £600,000. The fact that 1,000 people have come forward for compensation since the ITV series indicates that people do have confidence that they will be compensated fairly, but I absolutely understand that we have work to do to ensure that people feel that way across the board.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The Minister has been incredibly honest and forthright in all his answers, and we have every faith in him, given his conduct and all the information he has brought to the Chamber, for which I thank him. As locally elected representatives, we are accountable to our electorates. How will the Minister ensure that those who are paid from Government funds are accountable in the same way? What more can be done to hold those decision-makers to account?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

As ever, I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution. On the point about Government funds, I guess that he is referring to executives in the Post Office. Clearly, that is the Government’s responsibility as the single shareholder. We have a representative on the board in Lorna Gratton from UKGI, in whom I have a great deal of confidence. I think it fair to say that my Department and its officials have learned a lot from the process and from what has gone on, and that is right. We should be clear that mistakes have happened, and apologise for the way that they have contributed to the scandal.

I am very keen to ensure that there is continued accountability. We have, at significant expense to the taxpayer, set up the public inquiry, which was called for by Members across the House. It will take evidence in public, so that the public can see what is happening, and will conclude by the end of this year and report next year. We will then have a lot more answers to the hon. Gentleman’s question, as well as accountability not just for Post Office executives in future, but for Post Office executives of previous years.

Time Banking

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Westminster Hall

[Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the potential merits of Government support for timebanking.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Bardell. I was reflecting ahead of the debate about where and how we find community and how that might have changed over the years. In recent decades, many of the traditional sites and sources of community have become fragmented or disappeared entirely. The changing nature of careers in the workplace, a decline in the membership of religious and community organisations, and people relocating more often have perhaps all played a role, among other factors. It is ironic that in an era dominated by online social networks and mass communication, for all the many undoubted benefits, we are grappling with issues of social isolation, loneliness and declining community cohesion.

Office for National Statistics data from March 2021 shows a 7.2% decrease since 2014-15 in those who agree that people in their local area are willing to help their neighbours, and an 8% fall in the proportion of people who believe that others in their neighbourhood can be trusted. According to the Campaign to End Loneliness, in 2022 nearly 50% of adults in the UK reported feeling lonely occasionally, sometimes, often or always. There are multiple reasons for these trends, and there is no one easy fix, but they clearly demonstrate that initiatives such as time banking are needed more than ever. I declare an interest as a long-serving member on the committee at Leith Time Bank.

Life has changed, and our friends and family do not always live nearby. It is not always easy to ask someone for help, especially if it brings with it a feeling that we cannot pay them back. Time banking is a fun, relaxed and informal way of enabling people to help each other and bringing out the best in us all. Time banking is essentially about neighbours being neighbours. It offers a slightly more formalised approach to creating and sustaining the bonds that have long been fixtures of our communities. It reaffirms the old adage that the most valuable thing a person can offer someone is their time.

We all have skills, knowledge and experience to offer that could be beneficial to someone. It could be gardening, sewing, simple repairs, language skills, running errands, tech skills or helping with shopping—whatever it might be. Time banking is a way for people to exchange their skills and experience. It is based on a simple premise: for every hour someone spends helping someone, they earn an hour back from their time bank. Everyone’s time is valued equally, whatever is being offered. Everyone is encouraged to spend their time credits to give others the chance to make a difference and feel valued.

Timebanking UK was founded in 2002, inspired by the growth of time banking in the US. Social activist Martin Simon opened the first bank in Stroud, four years after the concept was introduced to the UK by Fair Shares. Having visited Dr Edgar Cahn and witnessed the time dollars movement in America, Martin Simon was determined to bring that system to the UK. He began development work from an office at City Works in Gloucester, creating Britain’s first time bank.

Now, 22 years on, there are well over 100 time banks and around 25,000 time bank members across these isles, with an estimated 6.7 million hours of help exchanged. Timebanking UK helps communities to set up time banks by providing all the resources needed. It offers monthly training sessions and networking events, a software platform and start-up materials, as well as individual support, advice and guidance.

Time banks bring together people of different ages, cultures, backgrounds and abilities who interact with each other on an equal footing and with mutual respect and understanding.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Lady for securing this debate; I cannot help but be enthralled by how she has presented her case for time banking. Does she agree that the old Bible truth “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is at the very core of the idea behind time banking? It allows all people to acknowledge their strengths, and to get help in return. Taking my speechwriter as an example, she says to me:

“These fingers are designed for typing”—

but there are others who are unable to manage that skill but would be able to provide tuition for a new skill. The ability to share should always be encouraged, as long as safety is paramount. We need to be assured, so I ask: is there a safety aspect to what is being put forward?

[Deidre Brock]

Is the hon. Gentleman asking whether there is a safety aspect in terms of monitoring what happens to everyone?

[Jim Shannon]

Yes.

[Deidre Brock]

Yes, there certainly is, and I will explain a little bit about the set-up of time banks as I continue. The hon. Gentleman has got to the heart of what makes time banks work: mutual respect and the feeling of giving as well as receiving. He has hit the nail on the head.

To return to what I was saying, a time bank member is not a volunteer in the traditional sense; they must be prepared to receive from others as well as to give to others. It is that reciprocity that makes time banks unique. Timebanking UK’s case studies show that joining a time bank really can change people’s lives. Time bank members learn new skills, meet new people who are often from different backgrounds, report better self-esteem and self-confidence, and feel healthier—both mentally and physically.

After six months as a member of a time bank, 80% of participants felt a greater sense of community belonging, 74% had made new friends, 74% experienced improved mood or reduced depression, 69% felt more comfortable asking for or receiving help, 66% experienced decreased loneliness and 60% noted improvements in their quality of life, health and wellbeing. Despite its considerable success over the years, time banking has not been raised in the House of Commons since 2011, so a chance to pay tribute to the movement and identify opportunities to grow it is long overdue.

As I mentioned, I have been a long-time supporter of the Leith Time Bank, which is part of Timebanking UK and Timebanking Scotland and has been running for more than a decade. Leith Time Bank’s development worker Mary O’Connell, and Anne Munro, the manager of Leith’s wonderful Pilmeny Development Project, along with my committed fellow committee members who sustain Leith Time Bank, have been at the heart of its burgeoning success. Its primary focus is to support older people, carers and adults with chronic health conditions, but many other demographics are represented among its 200 members. The skills one can offer or ask for are as numerous, if not more so, than the number of members, and include gardening, sewing, cooking, form filling and helping with the shopping—the list goes on and on.

Leith in my constituency is a densely populated area, but folk do not always socialise locally, and particularly not across different groups and generations. Recent waves of gentrification can create tensions, but time banking has been remarkably effective at breaking down barriers and forging connections between old Leithers and new arrivals, forming friendships between people who might not otherwise have ever met.

Time banks thrive best at a local level where members can get to know one another. Leith Time Bank runs social activities to help to facilitate this, as well as activities such as a multicultural cooking group and home energy advice meetings. Every month it offers a programme of activities whereby members can get to know each other in a safe and comfortable environment, and they range from weekly language classes and culture group meet-ups to one-off events such as a gardening squad, through to attending football matches or museums.

At the height of the pandemic, communication with loved ones online was a godsend for many folk, but lockdowns also exacerbated the digital divide. Those without access to digital devices faced really increased social isolation. Leith Time Bank runs a project whereby people offer their digital skills, largely—although not necessarily completely—to support older people in learning about tech access, and they can then get something back in return.

Time banks also offer a lot of flexibility, which I know has worked well locally for students, those with irregular schedules or just folk juggling various commitments and responsibilities in busy lives who still want to put something into their local area. I mentioned Mary O’Connell from Leith Time Bank; I spent some time with her recently and she shared some examples of its positive impact. For instance, one of its members is an 80-year-old man who is visually impaired and lives alone, with no friends or family nearby. He earns credits by providing one-to-one Spanish and French lessons in a local café with other time bank members. In exchange, those members earn credits by accompanying him to medical appointments and social activities, or by providing practical help with day-to-day needs like shopping, as well as telephone and face-to-face chats.

Leith Time Bank also operates a community pot whereby people can donate credit virtually, and it can be used for those who cannot contribute, perhaps due to health issues. One gentleman wanted to see a film at the cinema but he was unable to travel there himself, so he used the community pot to find someone to buddy him for the film. Mary also told me about an older lady who had been receiving help through the community credit pot but felt she had no expertise to give back. During a group activity, she met young mums and realised that she did indeed have skills to offer as she was able to teach them all how to make soup.

Members have described time banks as a “lifeline”, spoken of how they have done wonders for their mental health, and reflected on the opportunity they give them to

“meet lots of interesting people with good values”,

and also, of course, to meet and befriend people from all sorts of different ethnic backgrounds. I have given small local examples, but there are many thousands more such interactions all across these isles. The Timebanking UK network has helped to create local mutual support structures that can work in tandem with statutory services as well. At a UK national level, it has worked on projects with organisations across the charity, public and private sectors, including the likes of Sport England, the National Lottery and Disability Rights UK.

I argue that expanding the time banking network further would have multiple benefits, and I urge the Minister to consider where the Government might be able to lend some support. Our ageing populations, the cost of living crisis and the challenges facing social care all make the case for time banking to play an enhanced role in our society. Timebanking UK proposes a three-year national programme to create multiple time banking networks, including a public awareness programme—part of the problem is that not many people are aware of time banking and its many benefits—and training in co-production for key members of the social care management and frontline workforce.

Additional funding would enable Timebanking UK to expand its operations and realise its vision of a time bank on every high street in every village, town and city, just as there are general practitioners and pharmacies. Under a social franchise model, Timebanking UK would set up delivery partnerships with stakeholders, including voluntary and support organisations, GPs, health centres and community groups.

Further support would also help Timebanking UK to implement a system for quality-effectiveness and to calculate the social return on investment. It would allow more detailed assessments of the impact of time banking for individuals and communities, and a focus on the amount that it saves for statutory services, as well as for the creation of an app for UK national interaction between participants and to engage the younger audience. To give a cost example, just £20,000 to £50,000 would enable the creation of complete start-up packs for 100 new time banks.

I strongly urge the Minister to check whether he has a time bank in or near his constituency, if he is not already in touch with one. I also thoroughly recommend that he consider meeting Timebanking UK—representatives of which are in the Public Gallery—to hear more about its proposals in detail.

I will conclude with a quote from Mary, that fantastic development worker at Leith Time Bank, which eloquently captures the essence of time banking:

“We think the reason Leith Timebank works so well is it offers opportunities for people of different ages, cultures and backgrounds to come together to share their skills, knowledge and experience with others. Everyone is valued equally, with everyone having something to offer and to receive. Timebanking is not just about exchanging services, it’s about building relationships—connecting with others in the community and creating a culture of mutual support and collaboration. This approach helps members and the community to connect, build resilience, and improve overall well-being.”

The value of time banking in fostering community cohesion and addressing social isolation is abundantly clear. Anything we can do to promote and expand the movement would be welcome. I very much look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

Post Office Horizon: Compensation and Legislation

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 26th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I can assure her that I will continue to engage with her on this matter, along with the relevant representatives from the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland, as will our officials. I understand her disappointment. I understand her preference, and the preference of some Ministers in the Justice Department, but we will continue that engagement and try to make sure that compensation in Northern Ireland is not denied or delayed; we do not want that in England and Wales, either.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for the update. He referred to officers, family members and direct employees. I wish to ask this on behalf of family members. The news over the weekend indicated that 250 victims of the Post Office Horizon scandal have passed away; some of them had no knowledge whatsoever that their name would ever be cleared, or that compensation would come. Will the Minister say that every one of those people will have their family members compensated, that help and advice will be available, that they will receive an apology on behalf of their loved ones, and that this will be done as soon as possible?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I certainly apologise to all those people to whom the hon. Member refers. I read the reports this weekend about the number of people who have passed away. Indeed, one of my constituents, Sam Harrison of Nawton in Helmsley—one of the original 555—passed away last May prior to receiving compensation, which was devastating for the family. Just to be clear, those claims can still go forward and their estates will be compensated to the same degree. Nevertheless, that is slim comfort in that situation. “Family members” are those who have been directly affected by someone being convicted or prosecuted by the Post Office or the Crown Prosecution Service. Other family members can be compensated under the wider process—for example, where a house has been lost or a bankruptcy has happened. They can benefit through routes for compensation to the family in general. I am happy to have a discussion about everything that we need to look at in that area.

Post Office Horizon Scandal

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 22nd February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

If that is the case, they should definitely submit a claim. I am very happy to meet the hon. Lady to talk about her particular constituent. I am aware that some individuals have come forward and said that they received derisory offers. We urge them to engage with the rest of the process, which has not yet happened. There is an independent panel for the GLO scheme. Again, I would direct her to the actual performance of the GLO compensation scheme so far: 58 full claims received; 48 offers made; and 41 offers accepted without reference to the independent panel, which would tend to indicate that the offers being made are fair. However, I do understand that the people affected by this will not be satisfied by my assurances until they have gone through the process. I urge her to tell her constituent to do exactly that.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

May I also add my thanks to the Minister for his very dedicated response to all the questions that we have asked and for his energy in trying to make this scheme a success for those who have been victimised? On those who have had to take out loans to repay moneys that they never owed anyway, will calculations be carried out to allow repayment of not simply substantive amounts but moneys borrowed from family, friends or banking institutions, and the interest that they have had to pay them?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank the hon. Member for all the work that he has done in this area. I think he has spoken in every single debate that I have responded to in the House on this particular matter. [Laughter.] And every single debate across this House as well. That was also the case when we were working together, fighting for justice for banking victims. I pay tribute to all the work that he has done in this House in all these different areas.

On the hon. Member’s question, the key principle is that somebody is returned to the position that they would have been in financially prior to the detriment taking place. That could take into account, for example, consequential losses, pecuniary losses—financial losses—as well as non-pecuniary losses, which are other impacts such as those on reputation or on health. The short answer to the hon. Member’s question is, yes, absolutely.

Post Office Governance and Horizon Compensation Schemes

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 19th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kemi Badenoch]

That is absolutely the right thing to do. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, because it gives me another opportunity to restate that the very idea that compensation would be delayed until after the election is complete nonsense. It does not even make political sense. We want to ensure that people get their money as quickly as possible.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for her positive answers. Across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, hundreds of postmasters and postmistresses are still awaiting compensation for these wrongdoings. While it is understood that this is a sensitive subject for many, will she provide an update on the expected timescale for compensation of everyone who is entitled across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? The fact of the matter is, some people have waited two years, three years and longer, and it really cannot go on.

[Kemi Badenoch]

The hon. Gentleman is right: it cannot go on. I want to see everyone get their money as quickly as possible. By the end of this year, everybody should have received it. That is certainly what I am working towards.

Post Office Management Culture

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 8th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Marion Fellows]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. He has been one of the people who has been pursuing this business for many years, and I pay tribute to him for that.

Shockingly, the Post Office’s attempt to suppress the truth continues as it cautions sub-postmasters under the Horizon shortfall scheme against mentioning compensation terms to anyone. The overall process of seeking fair compensation is described by one applicant as “soul destroying”, raising concerns about the added suffering imposed on those individuals who have already endured so much. Again, I have a personal example of a constituent I am trying to persuade to apply, but he is terrified because he signed a non-disclosure agreement. Because he has heard about how others have been treated, he is even more afraid to apply.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Lady for her speech. One issue that burdens me— I think it burdens us all in this House—is those who unfortunately took their own lives as a result of what has happened. I am conscious of the families left behind now carrying that burden. Does the hon. Lady agree that there should be some methodology to ensure families who are left without a loved one are helped through the process, which they might find equally terrifying and worrying?

[Marion Fellows]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. Many victims have described themselves as suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. There is no scheme in place to help them and their families through what has been a traumatic and absolutely awful time for all of them, especially when someone has died before they have been vindicated. There are many recent examples of that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, and I commend the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) for setting the scene so well. She touched on everything in her contribution; I am simply here to support her, and also to make the case for justice, for the right decisions to be made, and for fairness and equality, which have been missing from this process. The hon. Lady has endeavoured vigorously—evangelically, even—to pursue this matter, and has done so with a zest that we all recognise, as have many others. I also thank the other Members who have made contributions, including the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery).

As an MP for a rural constituency, the role of the post office in my community is vital. When we look at management culture, we have to look at the role of Post Office Ltd: what does it aim to achieve, and is it achieving that aim? We have no bank branches left in the rural community; we have no holes in the wall—as we refer to them—that are free of charge. Post offices are the only option we have for rural banking and to lift pensions, so in the rural communities I represent in Strangford, the post office plays a critical role. As such, today’s debate is one of immense interest for me.

I also commend the Minister. I think every one of us in this House—I can say this personally, but I think others will say the same—recognises that he has worked industriously behind the scenes on this issue for some two years, and probably longer. He did the spadework and the footwork, and endeavoured to ensure that we got to where we are now. The TV programme, “Mr Bates vs The Post Office”, highlighted the issue visually and helped us to understand it better, but there is always a person who has to sow the seed, and then there is a person who reaps the harvest. The Minister has worked hard to sow the seed, and today he is hopefully reaping the harvest, which is a recognition of the endeavours that he has made. I say that very honestly, because I think we in this House all recognise that his heart was always set on justice and fair play. Today’s debate gives us the chance to air those things, so I thank him for that.

With the drive towards online banking, our older and more vulnerable people have been left behind. Those people should be considered as part of the management culture, particularly those who do not have a good mobile signal or those in rural areas who, due to broadband pockets, do not have at their fingertips the reliable internet connections that we take for granted. Never mind the ability to use online facilities; those people do not even have the opportunity to do so, so the local post office—with its trustworthy staff who can help them do what they need to do—becomes even more important.

When it comes to management culture, we have to have a Post Office that works in the way we all wish to see. Post offices really are a lifeline, not simply when it comes to filling the financial gap left by the banks in their mass exodus from rural communities, but in terms of social engagement and contact. I think 11 banks have closed in my constituency over the past number of years; one or two of those were in the towns, but most were in the rural community. People need to know that they can keep their wee routine of lifting their money or paying their electric or gas bill, or doing the other things that can be accomplished in post offices, without having to get on a bus—or even two buses—to go to one of the major towns to carry out their business.

What grieves me greatly, as I said in my intervention on the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw, are those who lost their lives, as well as those who had prison terms, which the hon. Member for Wansbeck mentioned. I see the grief and the anxiety of all those people, who were good, honest, hard-working and sincere. They probably never had a parking ticket in their life or anything else, and they suddenly found themselves on the front row of discredit and disappointment, with their whole lives destroyed along with their relationships and their health. Those people deserve to be compensated. They deserve to have their lives reinstated, and for all the things that happened to them—in many ways, including financially—their compensation must be adequate.

Those honest, hard-working people lost their reputation and had their lives destroyed, so it is essential that sub-postmasters and mistresses are supported in their role by the Post Office’s management culture. The Horizon scheme is a very big indication that the culture was not good, is not good and has to improve. That is not simply because of a defunct system and scheme, but because of the lack of trust and support given to those people, who had done nothing other than offer a service. Morale in the Post Office is at an all-time low, and the question is: how do the Government—and the management as well—fix this? Some of those people have become destitute and had their lives destroyed entirely, and that has to be addressed.

How do we convince younger men and women to take up the gauntlet of running a post office? The hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw said that three post offices have closed in her constituency, and there is nobody taking up those jobs. We know why no one is taking them up. It is because the monetary value—the wages they receive—is such a minimum quantity. We need to look at that when it comes to how the management culture moves forward, to make sure that running post offices can be, by their very nature, jobs that people can take on. There are horror stories all around about how staff have been treated and just how horribly underpaid they are. Who, for goodness’ sake, would take on a role in a post office for less than the minimum wage—and, my goodness, all the worry? I have read of postmasters working out that, when they take into consideration the time taken to carry out the functions required by the Post Office, they are on less than the minimum wage. That is where they are, so I think today’s debate also has to address that within the management culture. We have to incentivise people and make it a job that is worth doing for those who put their reputation on the line to do it.

It cannot be acceptable to see bosses taking bonuses. I understand people getting bonuses and the reasons for it, but I cannot understand some people getting bonuses while others are disadvantaged financially, facing destitution and with their lives destroyed. So I must express concern about some bosses receiving adulation and accolades while postmasters get less than the minimum wage. That would not entice people to take on a post office or entice others to join their ranks.

I conclude by suggesting that, in any discussion of the management culture of the Post Office, there needs to be serious cognisance taken of how to rebuild trust. That starts with honest and open communication, and the decision to work with Post Office staff at every level. A wrong has been done, and it has to be righted. I know the Minister is committed to that, and we support him. He is right, the hon. Member for Wansbeck is right and everyone else here is right. We support the Minister in what he does simply because he is seeking justice—the justice we all want for our constituents—and I commend him for that. I look forward to his reply later.

Post Office Services: Isolated Communities

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 8th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Western (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

Continuing the trend, I am delighted to have secured a debate on post office services, in this case those in isolated communities. It is an issue that is very important to me and many of my constituents. You may not think, Mr Deputy Speaker, that a Member of Parliament who represents Stretford and Urmston, a seat relatively close to central Manchester, would be interested in post office services in isolated communities, but the key point that I want to make today is that it is not necessary to be rural to be isolated, and that post office services are just as important to isolated communities in city regions as they are to those in the countryside. That is why it is so important that the right support is in place to enable post offices to stay open and to thrive.

That brings me to the subject of Partington, in my constituency, which has been without a post office since August last year, when its long-serving postmistress retired. That has had a significant impact on many of my constituents, because while Partington is a great place in which to live and an area that I am proud to serve, there is no doubt that it is an isolated community. Transport connectivity is abysmal, there are no rail or light rail links, bus services are infrequent to say the least, and there are low levels of car ownership. What is more, its town centre banks have long since closed. In other words, the array of services that Partington post office used to provide, such as banking facilities, the collection or delivery of mail and the ability to pay bills, are now incredibly difficult for residents to access.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for initiating a debate which, coincidentally, follows another very significant debate about the Post Office. As he may have heard Members say during the earlier debate, post offices are a vital tool in combating rural isolation. Does he agree that there should be a statutory obligation to rural-proof post office provision? While the banks have abandoned communities like those he has referred to without fear or favour, the post offices have a responsibility not to do so, and we must ensure that that responsibility is fulfilled and delivered.

[Andrew Western]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct and, in fairness, there is a Government grant to support the subsidisation of post office services in isolated and rural communities. There is, however, a question of whether that grant is sufficient or, indeed, whether it is reaching the right places.

For the people of Partington, their nearest post office is now several miles away, and the lengthy round trip for those without transport is prohibitively expensive for many local residents. People in Partington are now in the 1% of post office customers whose nearest branch is more than 3 miles away.

Children’s Mental Health Week 2024

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a real pleasure to speak in this debate, Mr Pritchard, which is on an issue that I have a very big interest in.

I start by thanking the hon. Member for Tooting (Dr Allin-Khan) for securing this debate on such an important subject and on setting the scene really well with her massive knowledge of this subject, which helps us all to develop a better understanding of it. This issue is experienced in all of our constituencies; it is not just a nationwide issue but a universal one. So, I am very pleased to be able to make a contribution to this debate today.

I know first-hand stories about this issue from my own constituency. I will not mention any names, but I know that a large number of children are genuinely struggling, so it is great to be here to represent them and discuss ways to combat mental health issues. It is the parents who I deal with; they speak on behalf of the children who have the problems.

I will give a Northern Ireland perspective. I am very pleased to see the Minister—the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield)—here in Westminster Hall today. She is a Minister who understands these issues and I have no doubt that she will reply very positively to our requests. In Northern Ireland, the system is operated by child and adolescent mental health services, or CAMHS, which goes above and beyond to support young children who are suffering from conditions such as depression, problems with food or eating, self-harm and abuse, violent tendencies, bi-polar disorders, schizophrenia or anxiety. More than 2,000 young children are waiting for an assessment by CAMHS and some of those children have to wait for up to nine weeks.

There is no greater worry than the worry that one has about a child or grandchild. I have six grandchildren and I really do worry about the six of them and the society that we live in now. It is different from when I was a teen growing up, which, by the way, was not yesterday. Support and openness is the main source of encouragement and I will go on briefly to that in terms of school and education. In my constituency of Strangford, I have heard of and taken many phone calls concerning eating disorders. I commend the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) because she has been at the forefront and done a grand job. She has highlighted the matter, not just here but in the main Chamber, and I congratulate her on that.

I have spoken about having good and efficient eating disorder services available. For example, in my constituency there is no access to a clinic to allow people to weigh in with their GP or to receive specialised treatment. Each year in Northern Ireland, 50 to 120 people develop anorexia, while 170 develop bulimia. Way back when I first came here, the Minister in Northern Ireland at that time helped one of my constituents, who was a young girl of 15. She went to St Thomas’ hospital across the road here. My Minister, along with the then Minister of Health here, saved that girl’s life.

That is a story of how our NHS works. We do not always hear the good stories. I know as a fact that that young girl is now married with two children. I remember meeting her with her parents in the Lobby here, who were worried sick about her. Yet our health service, our Minister back home and the Minister here saved her life at St Thomas’, just across the water.

There are 100 admissions to acute hospitals for eating disorders every year. It is important to remember with these figures that that they record only people who have been admitted to hospital, so there will be more. What is this about? Young boys and girls who suffer with eating disorders struggle with their looks and self-confidence. Children and teens spend so much time in school, that often their parents will be completely unaware of what is taking place. We must also make discreet pastoral care accessible for young children. It is really important to have that, and I hope the Minister will provide a response on pastoral care and where we are here.

I can speak for the schools of Strangford, as I am in frequent contact with them regarding multiple issues. The care our teachers have for young people is unwavering. It is a fact of life that so many young people are struggling. I have never seen anything like the struggles of the past two years. The hon. Member for Tooting mentioned that in her introduction, and I see that replicated, unfortunately, in my constituency.

Other features are struggling at school, personal appearance, heartbreak and grief. We must always remind them of the importance of speaking up and sharing feelings, so that we can help them. In conclusion, I urge the Minister, the Department and the Government to engage with devolved institutions. I always say that because it is important that we work better together, to ensure we have the necessary means to support our young people with their mental health.

This issue is incredibly important, as I have witnessed in my own constituency, from what parents and children have brought to me. To reiterate the point I made at the beginning, this is an issue we must all understand and must resolve as a nation. I have said often that we can do these things better together, and I think the Minister grasps that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Maria Caulfield]

The hon. Lady is making my argument for me. We are seeing a significant increase in demand, and that is why we are spending more on rolling out these services. She did not welcome the progress we are making on mental health support teams across our schools, or the fact that we are set to announce new mental health support hubs across England.

Last year we published our new suicide prevention strategy; my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Dr Hudson) talked about 3 Dads Walking, who I was pleased to meet. We are also rolling out mental health and wellbeing support in our school curriculum, teaching young people what good mental health looks like and about support mechanisms. Our strategy sets out over 100 actions to help reduce suicide and to ensure that young people in particular, who are identified as a high-risk group in the strategy, are getting the support they need. That includes making mental health and wellbeing part of the school curriculum.

[Jim Shannon]

Has the Minister had the opportunity to look at how to ensure that young people have some church activity and pastoral care, which is very important?

[Maria Caulfield]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Part of that can be done in our schools. With the increase in mental health support teams, which will now cover 4.2 million pupils, there will be different levels of support, from pastoral support right through to acute help for those with more acute mental health needs. It is really important that we ensure that those teams are rolled out as we are planning. Our hubs in local areas will also be able to provide more bespoke services for the communities they represent, which is crucial. I would like to thank Dr Alex George, the Government’s youth mental health ambassador, who has been leading much of this work, particularly on the suicide prevention strategy and making children and young people a priority group.

I reiterate my thanks to everyone who has contributed to the debate. The Government have a plan to improve mental health services for children and young people by investing in services, with capital projects to improve infrastructure in order to provide the care that is needed, from crisis centres right through to the 27,000 extra mental health workers; rolling out mental health support teams in schools and our new children and young people’s mental health hubs, which will be announced shortly; and dealing with the sheer tsunami of demand, whether it is due to the fallout of covid or the fact that people are coming forward because we are encouraging them to talk about their mental health and ask for support.

Our plan is making a difference. I am hopeful that, with the investment we are putting in to tackle the lack of investment for decades under many Governments, we are providing the building blocks to improve the mental health of our young people in this country.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 25th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Hollinrake]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. Leading banks and alternative lenders are committed to the SME finance charter to help small businesses and start-ups. We continue to work with the UK finance and banking industry to make sure that SMEs have the support from banking services that they require. Many leading challenger banks, such as Metro, Aldermore and Starling, provide additional application support. Banking hubs are also available for those without a bank on their high street to offer face-to-face support. Thirty have already opened, and 70 more are in the pipeline.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his response. There is a willingness to meet net zero commitments from businesses all over the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so would the Minister be prepared to introduce a scheme whereby small businesses can access funding to implement infrastructure changes in their businesses to help them achieve net zero, and will this be available to all parts of this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The hon. Member raises a very important point. It is something that we look at all the time, and certainly we have had discussions on the matter. We already have programmes in place, including the £12.4 billion that we distribute through the British Business Bank that supports nations and regions funds. Some of that will certainly help businesses to access finance to decarbonise. We look at those measures all the time, and we are happy to work with him on future programmes that we might roll out.

Girlguiding UK: British Overseas Territories

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd January 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the future of Girlguiding UK in the British Overseas Territories.

This is an issue that all of us here have a deep interest in. There are many others who I understood would try to be here, but I understand why they are not—there are always reasons, such as the weather in the past few days. None the less, many others wish to make a contribution. When it came to this debate, many Members took the opportunity to sign the early-day motion when it was down, and it is obvious to me that many people have deep concerns about what is happening.

I give special credit to two ladies in Westminster Hall today: the right hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) and the hon. Member for Bradford South (Judith Cummins). They are well aware of the issue and I thank them for coming along; they will make contributions that will greatly add to the debate. I am pleased to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), and in particular the Minister in their places. We know that the Minister is always a dear friend to us all, and we have high expectations of his response. There is absolutely no pressure on him whatsoever, but to be fair to him I think he will realise what we are trying to say, why it is so important and why we believe this debate is crucial.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for selecting this debate and allowing me to speak on the topic, along with others. I declare from the outset that I am not a Girl Guide—that is probably fairly obvious. However, as a scout and a member of the Boys’ Brigade many moons ago, I have an affinity with my fellow youth organisations and a desire to speak out for those who, like me, have benefited greatly from being part of such a wonderful organisation and what it does, what it creates and how it can shape young people for the adult life of tomorrow. The fact is that the Girl Guides, Scouts, Girls’ Brigade, Boys’ Brigade, the Campaigners and many other similar organisations really sow seeds into the lives of young people, promoting teamwork, teaching new skills, and giving children the confidence to be with new people and try things that are out of their comfort zone. That is what they do: they mould, create and challenge. They give an opportunity for insight into what adult life can be like.

I was a proud member of the Boys’ Brigade and my boys followed that tradition, which their children now follow as well. I cannot say enough about all that is positive about such organisations. There is a much-loved Girl Guides organisation that has four units in Newtownards, my major town in the Strangford constituency—that is in one town alone—and it is easy to see why. The structure, the care and the wonderful volunteers make it so appealing to children, and it really is not an exaggeration to say that it makes up the fabric of community life, not simply in towns such as Newtownards and Strangford, but in rural and isolated villages throughout the Strangford constituency, because many parents take their children to the Girl Guides in Newtownards and elsewhere. I have attended many events hosted by the Girl Guides; I remember one in particular when I was the mayor of Ards and North Down Borough Council—it was a long time ago, in 1991 or 1992. I knew some of the leaders of the Girl Guides in Newtownards, and they invited me down. We had a wonderful night with the young girls and what they did that night, along with the leaders as well, so that occasion has always been memorable for me.

When it comes to speaking for the Girl Guides, I am happy to do so, because it really is an organisation that can do great things. I have always been impressed by the level of love and thought put into making the guides relevant and interesting for each new generation of children; it has a positive mindset. However, I was so sad to learn that the decision had been taken to close the Girl Guides in British overseas territories, including our army bases. For that reason, I requested this debate, along with the right hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North and others, so that we have a chance to discuss it and others have a chance to add their voice, along with mine, in asking the Minister to intervene and make contact with Girlguiding UK to offer support and help to enable the overseas aspect to continue. That really is so vital.

It bears reiterating that British overseas territories are precisely that—British. Others, like me, have a real love of their Britishness. I regularly tell people that I am British, because I believe in it. I love it. I like to tell others that we have something special. As such, there is an expectation that we can partake in things that are quintessentially British, such as being part of the local Rainbow group. It saddens me that the message sent out is that of an inability to work across the difficulties to allow these groups to continue to meet. I understand that there are difficulties, but we should look to the motto “Be prepared”; we should be prepared to go the extra mile to find a way to make it work. I ask the Minister to be prepared and to go that extra mile, as well.

In 2023, there were around 2,600 members of British Girlguiding Overseas in 36 countries and territories. I understand the risks that have arisen with the passage of time and the child protection obligations. Last night, the hon. Member for Watford (Dean Russell) introduced an Adjournment debate on AI scams. I just relate this story, because it is important; it shows that society has changed and that people can buy into scams and find themselves in difficulties. I made an intervention in that debate about elderly and vulnerable people.

In the days of my youth—you and I are probably of a similar vintage, Mr Chairman, so I suspect that they were the days of your youth as well—we did not lock the back doors. There was no necessity to do that. Life was different then, but life has changed. I understand the difficulties and necessities that have arisen with the passage of time and the child protection obligations. It is really important that we get those right, because society has changed and we have to protect people more than ever. However, those 2,600 members are left without that precious opportunity to be part of something global, something diverse, something useful—something that they can appreciate in a community that appreciates them. That is the importance of this issue, and the importance of holding this debate.

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

I am grateful to the hon. Member and fully support him in what he seeks to achieve. In June, in the same announcement that Girlguiding made over its desire to sell its centres in overseas territories, it announced that it would sell five centres in the UK including Waddow Hall in Lancashire, where many young people from my communities in Cumbria have enjoyed outdoor learning experiences. The Waddow Hall Trust is seeking to keep Waddow Hall as an outdoor education centre. Does the hon. Member agree that expanding access to outdoor education for all young people at primary and secondary school could be a real lifeline for centres such as Waddow Hall?

[Jim Shannon]

Yes, I agree. We need some extra thinking about how we move forward and how we retain—or better use—some of the centres, and I am sorry to hear about that happening in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. The doors are not closed yet, so hopefully there will be a resolution that can take us forward.

In April 2023, Girlguiding UK announced plans to end British Girlguiding Overseas—the BGO operation. The trust said that its decision reflected the challenges and risks of running organisations across those different regions. On 1 September 2023, girl guiding in the middle east, Africa, Asia, Benelux, France—European regions—was ended. Girl guiding on military bases ended at the same time. Girlguiding UK said that its girl guiding will continue in the UK’s overseas territories for the first few months of 2024—we are in those first few months now—after which a further update will be issued.

[Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)]

I refer Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. At the end of 2023, I was taken to the Falkland Islands by the Falklands Islands Government. That was paid for by the Falkland Islands Government. One of our meetings was with the Girl Guides themselves. They had been deeply affected and were very worried about the future of their movement.

The Falkland Islands is a wonderful place, but it is very small. It does not have many services for young children. It has a population of only 3,500 people. The Girl Guides provide a key lifeline, social outlet and a hobby for people. They are part of everyday life for the small population of Falkland Islanders. They told me that cutting off the Girl Guides would have a devastating impact on young girls in the Falkland Islands. Does the hon. Gentleman agree, especially when it comes to overseas territories with smaller populations, that we cannot let important organisations such as the Girl Guides go by the wayside, because it will have a huge detrimental effect? Does he also agree that people in the UK’s overseas territories are British, and that they should therefore be treated the same as British girls in the UK?

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Gentleman sums up the core issue of this debate; I thank him for that. I was just about to mention the Falkland Islands, so he has pre-empted my next sentence.

BGO currently operates in nine of the UK’s 14 overseas territories: Anguilla, Bermuda, the British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, the Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, St Helena and Ascension, and the Turks and Caicos Islands. Some of the people sitting in the Gallery are from those overseas territories and are here to add their support through their presence. In August 2023, the executive of the BGO said it had made alternative proposals for Girlguiding UK to continue operations, but these were rejected. It has said:

“We lobbied at the highest level of Girlguiding with a request to become a charity in our own right or to set up as a different charity as a franchise of Girlguiding. These alternatives, amongst many others, were repeatedly rejected by the Board and CEO. In particular, we presented a comprehensive proposal to become a charity in our own right on the same basis as the other regions. Despite the inclusion of a dedicated risk manager, office staff and a detailed risk assessment, this proposal was ultimately rejected by the trustees.”

Some 600 young girls cannot continue on their girl guiding journey, but my role as the Member in charge of the debate is not to throw recrimination or to apportion blame. That is never my way of doing things, because I always like to bring people along, if at all possible. My aim today is to ask what support this House can give our overseas territories and military bases to allow their children to continue their journey and live a fulfilling life. It was highlighted to me in an email that Girlguiding membership is hugely important,

“especially for our Armed Forces families. Young members and adult volunteers whose families were posted to Germany, Cyprus, Belgium, the Netherlands and the Falklands”—

the hon. Member for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) mentioned the Falklands—

“as well as other NATO bases, were able to transfer directly into a unit, making the initial transition to life in a new country a bit easier.”

When someone is taken to live somewhere else overseas, it is so important for them to be able to take some comfort in organisations with which they are familiar. The quote continues:

“Membership of the BGO/Girlguiding gave them an extended family and the support that goes along with that, in sometimes difficult situations. This support continued while their serving family members were on deployment.

That email raises a vital point that reiterates why this issue spans not simply the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, but the Ministry of Defence. Other Government Departments must have input into it as well.

I have also been contacted by a number of people living in the overseas territories to thank me and others for highlighting this issue, which is so important to them. They include Claire Montado, the commissioner of Girlguiding Gibraltar, who said:

“For us, the decision when announced was somewhat surreal. To treat the OTs as if we are not part of the UK is incomprehensible to us”—

it is incomprehensible to me and others in this Chamber as well—

“and does not acknowledge the relationship with the UK or their contribution to Britain over the centuries.”

That Britishness and togetherness is what this debate is about. Ms Montado continues:

“In the case of Gibraltar, we are all born with the right of abode in the UK. Our legal, educational, health systems etc are all UK based. We have even left the EU along with the UK because we are part of the UK.”

That tells us about the uniqueness of Gibraltar. She goes on to say:

“Girlguiding has been in continuous operation in Gibraltar for over 100 years. When the entire civilian population was evacuated (to Ireland, Jamaica, Madeira and London) during WWII to serve Britain and the world’s defence needs, Girlguiding continued in the evacuee camps. We are determined to keep Girlguiding going on the Rock, but it is culturally and geographically for us to do that within the UK umbrella. We are no different to the Crown Dependencies and should not be treated as such.”

I hold that view very close to my heart, which is why today’s debate in Westminster Hall is important. With all respect and humility, that is why we are asking Girlguiding UK and our own ministerial team to have a closer look at this to see how the risk can be managed, spread and dealt with to enable those hundreds of British girls—they are British girls—to be part of what the Girl Guides in my town of Newtownards take for granted. The affinity between the Girl Guide groups in Newtownards in Strangford and those across the world in the overseas territories is so important.

I conclude with this comment. I look forward to hearing what other Members will say, but my focus is on the Minister, and I want not words, but assurances. I say that to him very sincerely, very humbly. I ask that to try to find a solution, because solutions are what life is all about. When people come to me with a problem, they want the solution. Our job as politicians and MPs is to provide solutions. I think that we have solutions today. The right hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North, who will follow me, and others who make speeches will all say the same thing. Today, there will be a unity of spirit, of thought, of focus, a unity of request to the Minister. I wish to see the action that he will be prepared to take to do all we can to foster this wonderful opportunity for all British girls, not only here at home, but across this wonderful world that we live in, and especially within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the overseas territories. We are all British and we all wish to be British, so let us do our bit for the Girl Guides and the overseas territories.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

Can I first thank all the right hon. and hon. Members who have made contributions? I thank the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), and the Minister as well. The right hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) brought to the debate personal knowledge of being a Girl Guide, and of her participation in the brownies some 40 years ago—that is hard to believe; I am sure it is probably much less time than that. Whatever the case may be, I thank the right hon. Lady for her contribution. We heard about the safeguarding and risk management challenges and all the necessities that were put in place, and about how—I say this with all graciousness—the brownies helped the right hon. Lady to develop and promoted challenges and thoughts that brought her to this place today, a place where there should be that opportunity for young girls and ladies.

We are really fortunate, Mr Betts, to have three ladies here in Westminster Hall today who all were members of the brownies over the years. I do not recall another debate in which three of the MPs present were three former members of the same organisation. That is quite an achievement and reflects why this issue is so important.

The right hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North also referred to the parliamentary week for Girl Guides and that is something that, if God spares me, I will take up next time around. She outlined very well what it does and talked about her trip to the headquarters in Salisbury and the young girls she met, in particular Chelsea. I have never met Chelsea but, judging from what the right hon. Lady said, she is an exceptional young lady who could end up in this place someday to represent the people in her constituency, wherever that may be. I look forward to that day.

My good friend the hon. Member for Bradford South said that Girl Guides overcome challenges. Really, that is what this debate is about: overcoming challenges. It is about the Girl Guides and the pixies, which she was a member of. I remember when the Girl Guides were operating in Greyabbey and one of the other villages nearby. I had three boys, so they went into the Boys’ Brigade, but the ladies always said to me, “You know, whenever you get a wee girl, she can join us in the pixies and the brownies.” Well, we never got the wee girl. We could not be sure that it would be a wee girl, and I think my wife was not really committed to having another child, so that opportunity did not come.

We have heard about people’s personal experience and the negative impact of closing down British Girlguiding Overseas, so I hope the Girl Guides can work with us to find a way forward. Minister, that is the request from the hon. Ladies—indeed, from us all. My hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) referred to the importance of the uniformed youth organisations. The Minister has really got that point, and his response to the debate also convinced us of that.

The hon. Member for Rother Valley (Alexander Stafford) referred to his time in the Falklands, which has a population of about 3,500, and the important work that the Girl Guides do there and in many overseas territories.

The hon. Member for Nottingham South, the shadow Minister, is another product of the pixies, the brownies and the Girl Guides. Wow—what personal experiences we have heard about today from all three hon. Ladies. It was a pleasure, a privilege and an honour to be here and hear those things. The shadow Minister referred to the opportunities that the Girl Guides give girls today, but these things do not just happen. There are 70,000 volunteers—I never knew that until this morning. These are the many people outside the Girl Guides who make it happen: the parents and the ladies, and no doubt the gentlemen as well, who all make a contribution.

The Girl Guides are also a valued part of the overseas territories and the United Kingdom globally. Indeed, they are a vital part of the Britishness that the Minister referred to. He and I—indeed, all of us here—clearly share that Britishness: that love and that commitment to Britain, which we very much treasure.

I am glad that the timeline for consultation has been extended. We hope that the Girl Guides will have the confidence to speak and act, and to invest in the next generation.

The Minister encapsulated things well. Although I perhaps put some gentle pressure on him in introducing the debate, and while others have also done so, we did so in a nice way, because we understand that he is a Minister who is always genuinely courteous to us all, and I think he understands this issue only too well. His response was incredibly helpful, and I think we will all take immense comfort from his words.

The Government have committed to retaining our Britishness in the overseas territories, protecting vital services such as the Girl Guides. The overseas territories are an integral part of the UK. There is a modern and productive partnership, and a commitment to that partnership and to the wider opportunities that Girl Guiding gives, including the camping out and Remembrance Sunday. I am reminded—as I am sure we all are—that every year, when I go to the Remembrance Sunday service at Newtownards, I always take note of the uniformed organisations, and the Girl Guides are always there. They are always smart in their uniforms and always in step—although they do take time to wave to their parents and grandparents as they walk. It is really important to instil that Britishness—that respect and that honour, which the Minister very much encapsulates. There is much comfort to take from his words, and I hope that is so for the ladies and gentlemen in the Gallery today on behalf of Girl Guides.

The Government have further committed to provide opportunities for young girls through the uniformed youth new groups fund for Girl Guides and other organisations in the United Kingdom. Some 100-plus units have been opened in the UK—I did not know that, so I thank the Minister for that update. He clearly understands why we secured this debate and why it is important, and the people here today are all committed to the same objective. In that respect, all of us, and probably the primary movers behind the debate, recognise in the Minister’s words an intention to find a solution. The talks are ongoing, and I am sure that the Minister will—I know he will—come back to each and every one of us and tell us what the results of that are.

We have confidence in the Minister, and in his ability, wish and strength of mind to find a solution. As I said earlier in introducing the debate, it is all about solutions—you know that, Mr Betts, as an elected representative, because that is what your constituents want to hear. This is about how we find that solution. Again, I thank the Minister very much for that. I thank all the people in the Gallery for coming along and, in particular, the right hon. and hon. Members who, in drawing on their personal experiences, made this such a good debate. It was a joy to listen to and a pleasure to behold.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the future of Girlguiding UK in the British Overseas Territories.