Animal (Penalty Notices) Bill

Jo Churchill Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 8th December 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Jo Churchill)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg, I think for the first time.

I thank everybody for their contributions. I will go through what I intended to say, and then come on to some specifics if there is any feeling that I have not addressed them. It is also a great pleasure to see Members such as my hon. Friends the Members for South East Cornwall and for Crawley, who with our hon. Friend the Member for Romford have a fine history of supporting animal welfare in this place.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Romford for introducing this private Member’s Bill; as the hon. Member for Rotherham said, my hon. Friend has a long history of supporting animal health and welfare. As chair of the zoos and aquariums all-party parliamentary group, a former shadow Minister for animal welfare and an advocate for the care and protection of animals, he takes this whole area incredibly seriously. It has been a pleasure to work with him thus far, and I look forward to supporting him going forward.

I thank hon. Members who have been selected to serve on the Committee and the organisations for the support they have given the Bill. They include the RSPCA, which I last had a conversation with as recently as yesterday; I thank it for sharing its thoughts. It falls into the three categories of those in the farm animal sector, such as the National Farmers Union, the Country Land and Business Association and so on; those in the companion animal sector—we have engaged with Battersea, the RSPCA and Cats Protection, among others—and those in the zoo sector, such as the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums. I say to the hon. Member for Rotherham that of course we will engage with the experts. Much of this is to be driven by engaging with those stakeholders, because they know the situation best. They are also aware of where some of the challenges to getting the balance right lie, as we progress with the statutory instruments.

The Bill, which had its Second Reading on 29 October this year, introduces a new financial penalty system, as has been said, and adds to the tools that we can use against those who commit offences against animals, demonstrating that we will not tolerate threats to the health and welfare of animals, the quality of our animal products, or the biosecurity of our nation. As Members on both sides have said, we in this country pride ourselves on our high standards of animal welfare, and we have powerful laws to maintain them, as the hon. Member for Cambridge alluded to. The hon. Member for Rotherham asked which Acts the penalties pertain to. They are the ones listed in clause 1, which I will not read out, and the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, highlighted in clause 2.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

I am pleased that this legislation is before us and that we finally seem to be making progress on the Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill, but I was told, I think a couple of years ago, that the Government intended to introduce a big, comprehensive animal welfare Bill to try to tie up all loose ends and ensure that we have overall protection, rather than rely on private Members’ Bills, SIs, and bits and pieces here and there. Has that been dropped?

[Jo Churchill]

A comprehensive selection of Bills are going through Parliament, looking at the whole of animal welfare and ensuring that those gaps are plugged. That is why we support today’s Bill. It is about having a proportionate response, and ensuring that where we find a gap we find the right tool to deal with it.

For the most severe crimes of cruelty and abuse, imprisonment will always be the correct response and the most appropriate course of action. We have the necessary powers to deliver that. The Animal Welfare (Sentencing) Act 2021, which was passed in the summer, introduced a welcome longer prison sentence for heinous animal welfare crimes, which I am sure we all agree with. We now need penalties to redirect behaviour, which was the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Romford made. It is about ensuring that, where appropriate, people can be put on to the correct path of behaviour before more troublesome and more abusive crimes are committed, and that we use the most proportionate and effective measure for each of them.

The Bill provides for penalties to redirect behaviour where animal keepers are not doing the right thing. We have an opportunity to improve how we tackle offences relating to animals and animal products. I would like to restate the relevant offences will be determined during collaboration and formal consultation with stakeholders, including those mentioned here, as I reaffirmed yesterday in discussion with the RSPCA.

Clause 1 is essential to establish the relevant offences and the enforcement authorities for those offences. It lists all the legislation to which penalties notices could apply, protecting the health and welfare of companion, farm and zoo animals, biosecurity and animal products. That does not mean, however, that the penalty notices would be considered an appropriate enforcement measure for every offence listed in the legislation.

Through the passage of the Animal Welfare (Sentencing) Act 2021, another private Member’s Bill, it was good to see the punishment for acts of cruelty being bolstered to a custodial sentence of five years. Once again, I would like to put on record that we have no intention of watering down the severity of offences. However, it remains imperative that all the legislation listed in clause 1 remains as it is. In that way, we can properly consider, in collaboration with stakeholders, which offences are suitable for a penalty notice and which are not.

We will explain further in the guidance under clause 4 that will accompany the new regulations, to ensure penalty notices are used appropriately and consistently without diminishing how they address the most serious offences, particularly that of cruelty. Designating the most appropriate enforcement authority for each offence is important to ensure the right people have the right powers to take action and change the behaviour of those committing less serious offences. Actually, it might be the good breeder who helps make sure that the behaviour is the right one. It does not necessarily always fall to an enforcement officer to issue the behaviour notice in the first place. We want the whole system to be one that engages and directs people’s behaviour. Then, the enforcement officers can either bring the direct commentary to the individual or step it up to a fixed penalty notice or, in the case of a heinous crime, use the court.

[Daniel Zeichner]

The Minister’s explanation is helpful, but I echo the thoughts of my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol: one can discern the Bill, as the Minister explains, but would it not be better to have an overreaching explanation so the wider world could understand the thinking? It takes interrogation of the Bill to understand what the plan is.

[Jo Churchill]

Most of our laws are made up of a collection of things that direct people’s behaviour in the right direction. The selection of animal welfare regulations from private Members’ experience, although there are gaps, from the Government legislating and from external stakeholders, is the right way to go on to ensure we cover everything effectively.

Enforcers must be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt before issuing a penalty notice, which goes to the hon. Gentleman’s point. If, for example, a case ends up in court because someone chooses not to pay because they wish to defend themselves in court, there must be a burden of proof. That is how we envisage this Bill working. Enforcers must be able to clearly articulate the evidence and the offence to the offender and be ready to pursue prosecution if an offender chooses not to pay or wishes to clear their name in court.

The clause also includes provision for the enforcing body to rescind a notice at any point. It adds an additional layer of protection for the recipient, such as in the event of an error or where prosecution is later deemed to be more appropriate. The additional tool will provide early redirection to those who are not doing things quite right, helping to prevent more serious offences from being carried out later.

[Daniel Zeichner]

This is the point I was trying to get to earlier. I think the point that Battersea is making—I have not read every piece of legislation it refers to in the level of detail required to know the answer—is that there are offences in there that do not require the same level of proof, in which case it worries, and I worry, that this could be undermined. Could the Minister tell us how many of those cases are within the legislation, or whether that could be revealed by the grid that is to be drawn up?

[Jo Churchill]

The grid has been drawn up. It is just going through the process of clearance. I hope to have it with the hon. Gentleman imminently; I was hoping to get it to him before the Committee sat. It is through discussions with Battersea and other stakeholders that we give clarity to the offences we are trying to pursue. Essentially, this comes down to the burden of proof. Tail docking would be unacceptable in some circumstances, but some working dogs have to have their tails docked, so we need to ensure that we have a proportionate approach. We have spoken to stakeholders to ensure that we do not have unintended consequences there.

Clauses 2 to 9 build on the foundation of clause 1 to provide a clear framework for animals, keepers and enforcers alike. Clause 2 is near identical to clause 1, but brings up the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, which is reserved. The purpose of the clause is to extend penalty notices for dangerous dogs offences to Wales, because obviously this legislation applies to England and Wales. Clause 3 is the workhorse of the Bill, setting a maximum fine amount and ensuring that both the enforcement authority and the person offered the fine understand their obligations. Clause 4 ensures that penalty notices cannot be used in a disproportionate way, such as for acts of animal cruelty, once again reaffirming that penalty notices are not for those serious acts but are the yellow card in the toolbox of the enforcer. Clause 4(2) establishes their proper and appropriate use as a means of early redirection. The matters to be taken into account mitigate the risk of penalty notices being used inappropriately without needing to list every specific offence in the Bill.

The matters in clause 4, alongside the guidance that will be laid before Parliament, will ensure that enforcers strike the right balance between advice, guidance, penalty notices and prosecutions, which I am sure we agree is the best way forward to ensure that those committing offences are properly encouraged to fulfil their responsibilities to the animal in their care. This all requires careful consideration, with the appropriate expert input, because it is to the experts that we will look to help us draw up the statutory instruments, at which point, again, there will be a second line of examination to make sure that we are going in the right direction. Laying the guidance before Parliament for specific offences allows time for thorough, crucial engagement with users, stakeholders and enforcers.

Clause 5 states where the proceeds from penalty notices will be paid. It is integral to the sound functioning of the Bill, enabling enforcers to retain costs associated with any enforcement, therefore limiting the financial burden. Clause 6 specifies the reporting requirement, which will ensure transparency and accountability. I share the views of Members from across the Committee—including the hon. Member for Cambridge, who brought this up—that that transparency and accountability through the reporting mechanism and the stakeholder engagement are crucial and will help to ensure that guidance has been followed consistently and that we have more oversight, rather than the numbers being lumped together.

Clause 7 states that secondary legislation will be required before a penalty can be issued for an offence. I am sure the Committee will agree that it is vital that full consideration is given to each offence individually to ensure that only appropriate offences will be included.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Champion]

Does the issuing of penalty notices also have a cumulative effect when it comes to court hearings? If someone has received a number of them or has not paid a penalty notice, might a more severe sentence be issued?

[Jo Churchill]

Should somebody receive more than one penalty notice, that is part of the suite of evidence that shows that they have not been behaving. We cannot just carry on giving fixed penalty notices. We cannot argue for these measures as having the power of redirection to improve behaviour, and then not expect to see behaviour improving. A penalty notice might be the right thing to do for low-level offences—the hon. Lady gave examples of what those might be—but not for committing the same offence repeatedly. People cannot just be given fixed penalty notices repeatedly. We are looking for another tool in the toolbox to redirect and improve behaviour, to ultimately help care for the health and welfare of animals.

I have answered the hon. Member for Rotherham. The Acts are listed. We will speak to the zoos as we will speak to all Members.

I thank the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow for her comments. I hope we will see Scotland follow us in this measure, to ensure that animals right across the UK are looked after, because I know that, across all four nations, we are a true nation of animal lovers.

This is about ensuring the burden of proof. Penalty notices are another tool in the toolbox. I hope we do not focus on the fact that a fixed penalty notice cannot be issued without the proper investigation, because it has to be as robust as it would be if we were pursuing alternative measures. As we work through the finer points with the organisations—I know the hon. Member for Cambridge is in regular contact with them— I hope that we will get to the point where we have reassured him, but, more importantly, reassured those who look after animals that where there are cases, there is extra care for those animals. That is the whole point of introducing the Bill, as my hon. Friend the Member for Romford said.

[Daniel Zeichner]

rose—

[Jo Churchill]

I feel like I have given way enough. I thank the Committee for its comments and support.

[Andrew Rosindell]

I thank everybody here from all parties for their contributions. The Minister has taken on board a lot of the comments that have been made. I know there are things that need to be ironed out and further explanation to be given, but I think we all agree that the principle of the Bill will enhance animal welfare in this country.

In particular, I thank my friends the hon. Member for Rotherham, for her contribution and for her steadfast support for all the animal welfare work that I do and for the Bill, and the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow for her enthusiastic support. I have no doubt that she is bound to suggest this in the regular chats I am sure she has with the First Minister, over tea and cake, to give her some ideas about future legislation in Scotland.

We are all animal lovers—whatever party we represent, we are all on the same side when it comes to the care for and welfare of the animals for whom we are responsible. Where I come from, we are responsible for these creatures. They need us to protect and look after them, to care for them and to enhance their wellbeing. I hope that this legislation will take us a step forward in making the United Kingdom the best country in the world for animal welfare.

I also thank the supporters of this addition to our enforcement system who are not able to attend today. Many Members across the House who are not on this Committee offered their support and spoke on Second Reading, and many others have contacted me to express their enthusiasm for the Bill. Let us maintain that enthusiasm and continue the momentum until the Bill gets over the line. Remember, maintaining momentum up to that point—and beyond—is so important. I am sure we will continue to make progress as the Bill progresses to Third Reading and then on to the other place.

I offer my heartfelt thanks to my hon. Friend the Minister. Her commitment and dedication to animal welfare and her detailed explanation of the Bill has been helpful to all of us. It has given us the confidence to believe that the Bill will be a great addition to our legislation for the protection and wellbeing of animals. It has been a great pleasure to work with the Minister.

The winners from this legislation will be the animals in our care, to whom we have a solemn responsibility. That is the intention of the Bill. I could not close the debate without once again thanking the many organisations that have campaigned for and supported the new legislation. They have helped so much by providing advice and support throughout the process.

I also thank my team in my parliamentary office, in particular Elliott Keck and Stephen Reed, who have worked so hard on the Bill with officials from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. I thank the Clerks, who have been so helpful in facilitating this Committee stage and the passage of the Bill so far and, as always, for their advice and guidance. Finally, I thank the officials from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who have been truly magnificent in advising and helping with consultations. They have given so much support to make sure that we were able to get the Bill to the stage we are at today.

I hope that we can press ahead. I look forward to the day in the very near future when the Bill is placed on the statute book. I believe it will reinforce our country’s reputation as a world leader on animal welfare and will continue to enforce the love of animals and protection of the animal kingdom across this nation of ours.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 2 to 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill to be reported, without amendment.