Mitochondrial Replacement (Public Safety)
Debate between John Glen and David Burrowes(9 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) who gave us that moving account of Jessica. That account has also raised other matters in relation to the principles and the ethics of the issues with which we are dealing. In 2008, I was involved in the scrutiny of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill and the Joint Committee and I still bear the scars. We are focusing here on public safety. We are not doing that as a guise, as some hon. Members have wrongly suggested. The focus is on safety, because that is what Parliament intended to be the case. We need to be absolutely satisfied about the safety of the process. Concerns over the painful, debilitating, serious mitochondrial diseases have been well made, but we must consider safety.
The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) says that we need an honest debate. He quoted Lord Winston, who said—the Government need to take heed of this when they seek to make some redefinitions—that mitochondrial transfer is genetic modification, and that modification is handed down the generations. Lord Winston said that it was totally wrong to compare it with a blood transfusion or a transplant and that an honest statement might be more sensible and encourage public trust.
The point is that Parliament intended to proceed cautiously and not in the permissive way suggested by some in 2008 who said that we did not need regulations and should just let the HFEA get on with it. The idea was that the question needed to be explored carefully. The Minister at the time, the right hon. Member for Bristol South (Dame Dawn Primarolo), said:
“there are so many questions that we cannot yet answer, the Bill provides for the principle…They can be drafted only when the research is at a more advanced stage.”
That deals with why this has taken so long, as the research was not at a stage to allow the regulations even to be drafted. We must also take heed of the fact that the then Minister also said:
“The Bill provides the flexibility for further consideration by the public and Parliament, and for the specific details of the techniques to be specified in regulations.”
That is where we supposedly are now. She went on:
“More importantly, the Bill allows that once the safety of the technique is established and not before.”––[Official Report, Human Fertilisation and Embryology Public Bill Committee, 3 June 2008; c. 25.]
That was the intention of the Minister at the time and I hope that it is the Minister’s intention now.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making a thoughtful and powerful case. My concern is that if the implications are not fully understood, instead of dealing with the legitimate concerns of all the parents of children who are suffering greatly, we risk creating even worse conditions in future generations.
Mr Burrowes
My hon. Friend makes an important point. We recognise that this is not an uncontroversial technique similar to blood transfusion. It is controversial, and we must recognise that if we want to bring the public along with us. We must also recognise that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr Willetts) said, we would be leading the way in scientific advancement, but we would be leading the way not just because of scientific development but because other countries had considered the ethics, complications and risks and said that they were not going to go down that route. Some might say that we are out there at the forefront, but others might say that we are out there on a limb.
On 22 July, the Minister responded to the consultation by saying:
“We wanted everybody with a view on the regulations to comment and the majority of people were positive.”
We have heard from the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) that there is another view. The Minister went on:
“We will now progress with our plans.”
Given that I was present during the scrutiny of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill, I would suggest that the then Government—I had much against them as regards the Bill—clearly intended that safety must come first. The issue is not whether the majority want it or who has the loudest voice—scientific or otherwise—but about safety. We need to be convinced so we must take heed of the HFEA, which says that although we have had the detailed submissions,
“Let us be clear: safety is and will always be of paramount importance...progress being made towards safety in this area”.
Progress is being made towards safety, but we are not there yet. The HFEA agrees that further research is needed. Pre-clinical data and research need to be considered, and that must all happen before we progress further. I urge the Minister to take heed of the concerns and to proceed only after we are clear about safety. We are not there yet.
Abortion Act
Debate between John Glen and David Burrowes(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard. I know that you share my concerns in this debate. I welcome everyone who is here for the debate and I thank the Ministers for coming. Their presence shows the seriousness and concern that are felt about the issue.
The debate has been triggered by The Daily Telegraph’s investigation into gender-selection abortion last year and the subsequent police investigation and decision by the Crown Prosecution Service on 5 September this year that it was not in the public interest to prosecute the doctors who were found to have contravened the Abortion Act 1967. The Director of Public Prosecutions has now given his detailed reasons, following a review of the public interest factors for or against prosecution.
Concerns about the authorisation of gender-selection abortion and the lack of any prosecution have been widely felt in the House and among the public. I am grateful for the support from hon. Members of all parties, despite our usual divide and the divide over the abortion issue. Indeed, 50 signed a letter to The Daily Telegraph. They were united in calling for clarity from the Attorney-General about the policy on contraventions of the Abortion Act. We look forward to that clarity coming from the Attorney-General today.
Keir Starmer, the DPP, recognised in his article on Monday that
“this country has a strong tradition of open and transparent criminal justice, and the probing and debating of prosecutorial decisions is an integral part to that tradition.”
Today I want to follow that fine tradition of probing and debating. The conclusion I have come to, supported by the DPP’s statement, is that the policy on prosecutions or offences contravening the Abortion Act is unclear, and, sadly, largely unenforceable. The DPP has helpfully shone a prosecutorial light on the practice of abortion where doctors have no direct contact with patients, where authorisation forms can be pre-signed, and where assessments concerning physical or mental health risk can be treated as routinely as questions of choice.
Some will argue that the issue of gender-selection abortion is simply a restriction of choice. Ann Furedi is the chief executive of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, the leading provider of abortion services. It has some 40 clinics in England, Wales and Scotland and performs 60,000 abortions a year. She says that sex selection may not be grounds for abortion, but there is no legal requirement to deny a woman an abortion if she has a sex preference, provided that the legal grounds are still met. Indeed, Ann Furedi went so far as to say it would be “wrong” to refuse to consider an abortion request when gender is cited as a reason. Those are the words not of the Chinese or Indian pregnancy advisory service but of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, advocating gender selection abortions and the removal of barriers to abortion. The issue is worldwide: The Economist recently published an article describing the 100 million abortions, which it described as “gendercide”, that are done on the basis of gender throughout the world. Concern is shared throughout the House about the need for proper gender equality and respect for basic rights.
When I heard about the investigation and the Care Quality Commission investigations that followed, I could not believe that such things could be happening in this country. The words I have quoted and the lack of any prosecutorial decision—there have been a handful of prosecutions for abortion contraventions in the past 10 years—give a green light to abortion on demand, which flies in the face of the Abortion Act and the intention of parliamentarians in 1967. Some 98% of abortions tick the box of mental health risk, but if we are honest, the truth is that that covers a multitude of reasons, and one of those reasons might include gender.
The DPP himself has referred in his statement to a programme manager at the Department of Health who indicated that many doctors feel that forcing a woman to proceed with an unwanted pregnancy would cause considerable stress and anxiety. The corollary of that is justifying the mental health grounds. It follows, therefore, that in practical terms we have in this country abortion on demand. I recognise that the Attorney-General is focused on the prosecution policy and will not trespass into the wider health policies, but my question is relevant. How does this reality impact on the policy towards prosecutions? How can it be in the public interest—Ann Furedi has raised this question—to prosecute contraventions of the Abortion Act when there is such a gap between the law and practice?
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
The key issue is about the definition of the mental health issues and the bar that is set for them to be understood to be a meaningful reason for an abortion. That can be a catch-all for an inclination on any grounds to have an abortion. If it is not set clearly and applied appropriately, it will result in what my hon. Friend has set out.
Mr Burrowes
My hon. Friend makes a good point. A wider issue is transparency and honesty around definitions and assessments. It is an issue because 99.6% of the 98% who relied on the grounds of mental health risk are those that this applies to. The investigation and the reasoning have highlighted the lack of guidance and how it is disparate across the country. We need further information. We are in the unknowns, because there is a lack of data and proper information. We do not know enough about the assessments in relation to mental health grounds. Perhaps the doctor is not even present to make the assessment.
Protection of Freedoms Bill
Debate between John Glen and David Burrowes(13 years, 2 months ago)
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John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
One of the beliefs that unites Conservatives and Liberal Democrats is that the past 13 years of Labour Government saw a squeeze on civil liberties. The Leader of the Opposition admitted that the Labour Government were
“too draconian on aspects of our civil liberties”.
He is right. That is why the Bill is so welcome, trimming away, as it does, some of the vast undergrowth of legislation that has undermined our traditional liberties. DNA retention, CCTV, wheel clamping, vetting and barring have all become synonyms for the erosion of freedoms, and most people will be glad to see the Bill tackle them head on. However, there is something else that concerns a wide cross-section of the general public and, sadly, has not been addressed in the Bill: the way freedom of speech has been undermined by what we might call over-enthusiastic policing. It is often generated by the pressures of political correctness and causes officers to overreact to situations when no harm is being caused.
To voice one’s opinion without fear of punishment or censorship is a fundamental human right. Without it, political action and resistance to injustice and oppression are impossible. It is a precious right, and we must not allow it to be undermined. Several pieces of legislation have been suggested for amendments to improve free speech, but I want to focus, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), on section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986, which outlaws threatening, abusive or insulting words if they are likely to cause distress.
As we have heard, section 5 has been at the heart of several high-profile cases in recent years. Liberty wisely took up the cause of a 16-year-old protester who was given a court summons by police for holding a placard outside a Scientology centre stating, “Scientology is not a religion, it is a dangerous cult”. The boy claims that police told him that he could not use the word “cult”. City of London police gave him the court summons and confiscated his placard after he refused to take it down. They referred to the Crown Prosecution Service an allegation that the sign was “abusive or insulting”. When Liberty took up the issue, there was widespread criticism and the CPS dropped the case. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough has said, the defence of the existing law has been that guidance can be given to the police, but it did not work and has not worked in a number of cases.
Dale Mcalpine, a Christian street preacher, was arrested in Cumbria for answering a question from a police community support officer about his views on sexual ethics. He said that the Bible described homosexual conduct as a sin. He was arrested and detained by police for nearly eight hours. Even the president of the National Secular Society has said that the police response was ridiculous and over the top. I find myself in agreement with the renowned campaigner, Peter Tatchell, who said:
“If offending others is accepted as a basis for prosecution, most of the population of the UK would end up in court.”
He is quite right.
In a similar case, another street preacher, Anthony Rollins, was arrested, handcuffed and kept in a police cell for four hours after a passer-by was offended by him reciting a biblical list of those who would not inherit the kingdom of God. I am a Christian, and personally I might not agree with that method of evangelism, but the idea that someone can be arrested for reading from the Bible in public is very worrying. Once again, the guidance from the Association of Chief Police Officers did not work. Mr Rollins got help from a Christian campaign group, the charges against him were dropped and they helped him bring a legal action against the police. The court decided that Mr Rollins’ right to freedom of religion and freedom of speech had been breached, that he had been wrongfully arrested, had suffered assault and battery by being handcuffed and had been unlawfully detained. However, the police are appealing against that ruling. Despite everything, West Midlands police think that section 5 of the 1986 Act allows them to arrest street preachers for reciting the Bible. Clearly, the police have difficulty applying the law and the guidance that the Home Office says should deal with the problem.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough said, some cases are just plain ridiculous, and it is astonishing that the police waste time with them. In 2006, demonstrators in Worcester protested against seal culling by using toy seals coloured with red food dye—a harmless way of making a point. They were, however, threatened with arrest and the seizure of their property under section 5. The police told them that the toys were deemed distressing by two members of the public, and they ordered them to move on. Ridiculous.
As the grandson of a police officer, I feel sorry for the police. They have to make extremely tough decisions day in, day out, and often under the most extreme pressure. They are criticised by all sides for being too rough, too soft, insensitive or over-sensitive. They just cannot win, and the media rarely give them a break. I do not want to run down the police. I want to focus on what we as legislators can do to avoid putting them in the situation where they have to decide whether a complaint from someone who feels insulted should result in an arrest.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making an important and strong case. Is he aware that, before he became a Member, whom we welcome, the House was occupied with debates about public order, particularly when dealing with cases of homophobic hatred? Many examples were cited and many concerns were expressed about application in that case. Such examples illustrate the problem with section 5 and its wide interpretation, and the need for us to take a proper, thorough look at it. This is an important opportunity to do so.
John Glen
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention. He makes a powerful point and underscores the fact that this Bill should take account of that anomaly. It is unfortunate that it does not.
We have to ask ourselves, “Should the law really criminalise insulting words?” Surely insult is in the eye of the beholder, so how can the police be expected to regulate that? Abusive behaviour is clear-cut: we all know it when we see it, and it is right that the law addresses it. Threatening behaviour is absolutely unacceptable, and we need laws to tackle it. But “insulting”? What would debate be like in this Chamber if an hon. Member could be silenced by an allegation from another hon. Member that he felt insulted by what was said?
In July last year my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister told us that this Bill would
“protect hard-won liberties and repeal unnecessary laws”.
The Government have made a good start, but they should seize the opportunity that the Bill presents to bolster freedom of expression by removing “insulting” from section 5 of the 1986 Act. There will be freedom from wheel clampers, but no freedom of speech. It does not make sense.