Scotland Bill

John Robertson Excerpts

Thursday 27th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

Once again, my right hon. and learned Friend puts it very elegantly.

As I was saying before that brief diversion, the fiscal powers included in the Bill are not limited to tax; they extend to borrowing as well.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Michael Moore]

I had nearly got back to the point I was at, but I shall give way.

[John Robertson]

On that point, I listened to the Secretary of State on the “Today” programme this morning, when he spoke eloquently about who would foot the bill if borrowing went—shall we say?—awry. What is to prevent a Government in Scotland from borrowing £500 million just before they lost power, to ensure that the incoming Government were saddled with a bill they could not pay?

[Michael Moore]

I would hate to destroy the cross-party consensus by making any inappropriate reference to a £155,000 million deficit, so I will move swiftly on. On the technical point the hon. Gentleman raises, if he looks again at the Command Paper, he will see that there are provisions to ensure that no Government will be able simply to borrow in order to stack up a capital reserve to spend in the future or to land a subsequent Administration in debt.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) for an illuminating and useful contribution to today’s debate. I am afraid that mine will not be as lengthy, but I humbly hope that it will also illuminate the debate.

I am sorry that the love of Scotland of the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) could not hold her in the Chamber longer, because she expressed disappointment that today’s debate is not taking place on the birthday of Mr Robert Burns. However, I can confirm that it takes place on my birthday, and I can think of no better way to celebrate than to speak in support of the Scotland Bill.

[John Robertson]

How sad!

[Fiona O'Donnell]

I expect that it is a reflection of what has happened to my life since coming to this place.

I begin, rather unusually, by apologising to the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) for my rather bad-tempered intervention. It makes me angry when I hear the SNP, given its record, complaining about the process that has brought us here today, and the Calman commission. It also makes me angry when the hon. Gentleman questions whether the Bill will receive due scrutiny. I hope that, now he has heard the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin), he realises that Labour will give the Bill due scrutiny, and that he will also welcome the inquiry by the Scottish Affairs Committee, on which the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) serves. That will give us further opportunities to examine the Bill.

I remind the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire that the Calman commission consulted the public, experts and interested groups at 12 local engagement events all over Scotland. It received 300 written submissions, and held 50 public and 27 private evidence sessions. That compares more than favourably with the national conversation. The hon. Gentleman asked my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North how much it had cost. A conversation among Unionists is a far bigger conversation than one just among nationalists.

I am particularly pleased to be speaking in today’s debate because I follow in the footsteps of John P. Mackintosh. His approach was one of integrity and commitment, and he wanted genuine constitutional reform and the flourishing of the democratic expression of the Scottish people. I should like to remind Members who have visited the Scottish Parliament, and to inform those who have not, that the Donald Dewar room at Holyrood carries this quote from John P. Mackintosh:

“People in Scotland want a degree of government for themselves. It is not beyond the wit of man to devise the institutions to meet these demands.”

Labour finally devised the institution to meet those demands and delivered on Keir Hardie’s original aim of home rule. Another of my predecessors, John Home Robertson, not only believed in home rule, but lived and breathed it as he served East Lothian in both the House of Commons and the Scottish Parliament.

Constitutional reform should rise above party politics. The SNP has shown throughout today’s debate not only that its politics are separatist, but that its approach to politics—the way it does politics—is separatist. The Labour way is to work with other parties to achieve consensus, which is what it has done through the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Calman commission. SNP representatives were absent from both, which must make theirs the longest political huff in history. They are less outside the tent than squatting on a different campsite altogether. Indeed, they have not been happy campers, although there have been an unusual number of references to caravans.

We today take Scotland forward to a new era. It is right and it is time that the Scottish Parliament takes greater responsibility for its expenditure and matches that with accountability. Of course, the Bill goes further than that in giving substantial borrowing powers to Scotland. I hope that we can now move away from a time when the SNP Government used every capital building programme as an opportunity to fight at Westminster, rather than as an opportunity to fight for Scotland.

SNP Members have still to tell us whether they will vote for the Bill or seek to wreck it today. They have an opportunity to see Scotland move forward, but they appear to be unwilling even now to rise to give us clarity on that question—[Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat). I also enjoyed the contribution of the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). I have not read his book and, having listened to his speech, I do not think that I will buy it. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] Let us face it, anyone who campaigned on a no/yes vote in the referendum for a Scottish Parliament meant, “I don’t want a Scottish Parliament, but give us the money anyway.” I have some problems with the economics of that position and wonder what the hon. Gentleman was thinking of at the time.

I am a unionist—with a small “u”. I am also a member of the Labour party. In the past 10 years, the Labour party has been the Unionist party in the House. We have supported the United Kingdom more than any other party. Around 2005 to 2010, the then Opposition, who now lead the coalition, had an anti-Scottish slant. I found it sad that we were treated in such a manner, but I have noticed that, since they came to power, we do not seem to hear the same anti-Scottishness from them. I am pleased about that, if nothing else.

Many hon. Members know that I followed Donald Dewar into the House. I had the pleasure of being his election agent in the 1997 and 1999 elections and of representing him in his constituency while he was away campaigning in 1998. Those of us who fought hard for a Scottish Parliament and an excellent vote, particularly in Donald Dewar’s constituency, had the reward of getting the Parliament. That is not to say that I agree with everything that has happened. I do not agree with hon. Members who said that this is the first time that we have revisited the Scotland Act 1998, because we have done that a couple of times. Yet Donald Dewar said to me that the Act was not to be played about with. Devolution might be a process and a project that will develop, but the Act should not have been tweaked as often as it has been. I hope that, if we tweak it this time, we will leave it to settle in properly. Ten years is not a long time for a political institution.

We still have to grow up when it comes to Scottish politics, as can be seen by some of the bunfights between the party that will remain nameless—I know that its Members count the number of the times that it is named—and Labour. It should not be a bunfight; we should think of the people of Scotland and try to do what is best for the nation.

The Bill goes a way along that road. Everything in it is not necessarily right, and some things that are not in it should be. Let me concentrate on those for a moment. The voting system for the Scottish Parliament is wrong. I particularly dislike the top-up of Members, and the votes of the people of Glasgow, part of which I have the honour of representing, are not proportionately counted.

There was a great deal of talk in debates on other Bills—they were not consulted on, just as this Bill was not consulted on—about how one person’s vote in one constituency is worth more than someone else’s vote in another. However, the second votes of 45,000 people in the Glasgow area do not count for the top-up list. Not one Member is elected by those 45,000 votes, which I believe is inherently wrong. It is not right to conduct a parliamentary election on first past the post and then, just because a party is so successful in gaining seats, for 45,000 votes to be discounted. I expect that 45,000 to be a lot more come the next election.

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Gentleman is the epitome of reason, and his speech differs greatly from some of the incoherent rants from his colleagues—we are likely to hear more such rants from the next few speakers. Is he really suggesting that we get rid of proportional representation for the Scottish Parliament? Surely we cannot go back to the old days of Glasgow council, when Labour members gained majorities on vast minorities of support.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Before the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) resumes his speech, I should say that he is now going through things that are not in the Bill. If he goes on at length on those matters, he is clearly going to make a lengthy speech before he even gets on to measures that are in the Bill. Will he now direct his comments towards what is in the Bill?

[John Robertson]

Thank you for your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker; I am hoping to speak to amendments in Committee that might deal with those matters, and to develop that argument and discussion in greater detail. To answer the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), I have never been spoken to so nicely. He called me reasonable. I have always thought I am reasonable, but sometimes people say that I rant.

It is important for people to have representation. I do not believe that voting for a loser to represent me is right. I want to vote for a winner, and I believe the person who wins the vote should look after me. That is how I was elected. I like to think that I have done a good job. Admittedly, when someone gets over 50% of the vote, they would say that, but they might not if things were a bit closer. I still believe that people would like to vote for a winner and not a loser to be their elected representative; sometimes even somebody who comes in third place will be elected. I hope to set out that position in Committee.

Consensus is important. The SNP has tabled a reasoned amendment, but at the end of the day, SNP Members want the same thing that I want: the best for the people whom they represent. However, you have to listen to the other side. The right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) made a very good point when he said that the fact of the matter is that the Scottish people do not agree with the SNP. If 70% or 80% of the Scottish people do not agree with you, you might be wrong. You should actually listen to that 80% and find out why they disagree with you. You might want to persuade them in the years to come, but we are not at that stage. To go back to my initial point, we are developing and broadening out what the Scottish Parliament does and trying to make it better. That will not be achieved in one go.

[Stewart Hosie]

The hon. Gentleman is being unreasonably reasonable. The amendment is not only reasoned, but reasonable, and it specifically fails to seek to decline to give the Bill a Second Reading. If he reads the amendment carefully, he will quickly appreciate that we seek to improve those areas in the Bill that we believe are weak, and that we are criticising the exclusion of recommendations by the Calman commission, which was the genesis of the Bill.

[John Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman sounds very reasonable, but I do not believe he is being reasonable, and I shall explain why—[Interruption.] Let me explain why you are not being reasonable. You have put forward an amendment that—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I have not put forward any amendment to the Bill. The hon. Gentleman has used the word “you” several times and I would be grateful if he could speak through the Chair.

[John Robertson]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The “you” is, of course, a Scottish phrase that you have misunderstood—[Laughter.]

The hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) has put forward an argument that is wrong, because it would wreck what we are trying to do today. It would be much better to table amendments to improve the Bill. I hope that the amendment will not be accepted so that we can carry on—and that is probably what will happen. The amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire is ill conceived. It is a mistake and he should not have tabled it.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful argument about the amendment tabled by the Scottish nationalists. The amendment concludes that the Bill is considered

“as a whole to be unacceptable.”

The amendment therefore suggests that the Scottish nationalists do not want the Bill to go forward.

[John Robertson]

My hon. Friend makes my point. That is why the amendment was a mistake, and I think that the Scottish nationalists did not really mean to go down that road. If they put that in deliberately, I am wrong and will admit as much. We have to fight them on that point.

Another aspect of the Bill that needs amendment is the provisions on energy. It is a reserved matter, but if we wished to build a nuclear power station in Scotland, the present Administration say that they would use the planning rules to stop it. By the middle of this decade, we might be short of electricity, so we have to make decisions now. In fact, we should have decided years ago—my party must take much of the responsibility for failing to do so—what we should do in relation to energy, and we cannot have a devolved Administration with the power to stop developments that are happening everywhere else. Each power station that is built is the result of billions of pounds of investment in jobs and future jobs after the station has been built. Some 9,000 jobs are created when a new nuclear power station is built. We should consider having legislation to make such planning issues a reserved matter, with the Secretary of State having the power to put forward reasons why such issues should go ahead.

[Dr Whiteford]

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman’s constituents would like a nuclear power station in their backyard.

[John Robertson]

The hon. Lady has obviously not consulted people in areas where nuclear power stations have been built. They want new stations built, because of the investment that that brings for local infrastructure. If the lights were about to go out, people in Anniesland probably would want a new power station. They would like any power station allowing us to keep the lights on. We are digressing on to a subject that has nothing to do with the Bill, and I know that you would stop me talking about it if I continued, Mr Deputy Speaker. However, I hope that the hon. Lady gets my point.

Overall, I welcome the Bill. It has some good points. Fiscal powers have always been a wee bit of a problem. Why is that? Let us have a look: in the mid-1990s, the Conservative party did away with the two-tier system north of the border—we had local government in local and regional areas. Cities such as Glasgow did very well under the old Strathclyde regional council, but once we did away with it, the money started to drift away from the centre of where the work was being done. Under the present incumbent north of the border, business rates for Glasgow were taken into a central pool and spread over the rest of Scotland, so that, in effect, the business rates in a city that created wealth and employment for people living outside Glasgow did not pay for anything. Those people came into Glasgow and used all the facilities, roads and everything else that the city council now had to pay for. I cannot remember the exact figures for now, but of £180 million collected in business rates, Glasgow used to get back £100 million.

In effect, Glasgow—the biggest area for employment—was taking £80 million out of its city centre and giving it to the rest of Scotland. I believe that that was done out of political expediency. It was agreed before the last election that the money would be returned to Glasgow, but we have since seen even more attacks on the city from the Scottish Government. If we are to go down the fiscal road, we have to consider very carefully the political stance, the areas where the money should go and the areas of high deprivation. For deprivation, Glasgow rates higher than any other city in the United Kingdom. Six of Glasgow’s constituencies—in those days, it had nine—used to be among the top 10 worst in the UK, and certainly plenty of its now seven constituencies are still among them.

Yes, we do need help, and we do need money. What we do not need is money disappearing. The fiscal powers must be used very carefully to ensure that the money taken in goes to the areas that need it. The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) talked about how we could do that. If the Scottish Government are to have such powers, however, I want to be able to know where the money is going. Why am I saying this? There has to be an audit trail if the UK Government are to give to the Scottish Parliament money and the means to collect taxes. For example, if this Parliament is to give the Scottish Parliament Barnett formula increases—my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) mentioned this earlier—of about £34 million for disabled children, but that money does not go there, I want the ability to ask where it went. If I were told, “It just went into the budget, and we do not know exactly how it was spent,” that would be fine, as I could use it for political purposes. However, I want to know where the money is, and I want the House to be able to audit every penny that comes from the UK taxpayer.

[Mr Weir]

Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that the Scottish Government can spend money from the block grant only on whatever this place determines? In effect, does he want to export changes in this place, for example in the NHS, into the Scottish system? That is ridiculous.

[John Robertson]

What I think is ridiculous is £34 million not going to disabled children.

[Mr Weir]

It did.

[John Robertson]

Well, I think that the money went to trying to support a Scottish Parliament and a Scottish Government who were trying to keep councils’ payments down, and that people were getting bought off with it. I do not believe that one thought was given about a disabled child going short or a home not getting the money it needs. I take that view, and I am entitled to my opinion. I believe that we have to go ahead with this.

I have ranted on long enough. I support the Bill. I believe that scrutiny has to happen, and that there are areas where we can make it better. I also believe that there are probably areas where we are thinking about making things better where we may have to reign in, but the most important thing is for the Bill to proceed and for the Committee to look at it even more closely.