17:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 5 / Noes: 252 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Over the past decade, the devolution of power and decision making from this Parliament to the Assemblies of Wales and Northern Ireland and to the Parliament in Scotland has transformed the constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom. With this Bill, we begin a new phase of devolution in Scotland—a phase that we enter with cross-party support and the support of individuals and organisations across the country. The Scotland Bill is, of course, an important step in the coalition Government’s programme to modernise and reform the United Kingdom’s constitution, but its origins lie in the Scottish Parliament itself and in the support given by the previous Government, which I am happy to acknowledge. The Scotland Bill will further empower the Scottish Parliament and make it more accountable to those who elect it. In doing so, it will strengthen Scotland’s position within the United Kingdom.
Let us reflect on how we got here. The late Donald Dewar famously said, while quoting from the first line of the Scotland Act 1998:
“‘There shall be a Scottish Parliament’…I like that”.
He was not alone. His sentiments were, and continue to be, widely shared in this House and throughout Scotland. It is important to pay tribute to Donald Dewar for his historic role in shaping modern Scotland. He was a true statesman, serving both as Secretary of State for Scotland and as Scotland’s original First Minister. In the creation of the Scottish Parliament, he has a fine legacy. However, he would have been the first to insist on recognising the countless others, across different parties, and, crucially, from many different backgrounds in Scotland, who patiently built the case for devolution over many years, indeed decades. Likewise, we should acknowledge those in this place, the Scottish Parliament and beyond who supported the early years of the devolved institutions, building their capacity and establishing their credibility. Today, we build on that work.
When taking the original Scotland Bill through this place, Donald Dewar said that the creation of a Scottish Parliament was not just for Scotland. Nor was it just routine tinkering with the detail of our political system. Rather, it was a fundamental, radical reform of the UK’s constitution. After more than a decade of devolution, the Scottish Parliament is firmly established as part of the fabric of Scottish life. More than that, however, devolution—not just in Scotland, but right across the United Kingdom—is now part of our national life too. The Parliament was established to bring power closer to the people of Scotland, to make government more responsive to their needs, and to put their priorities at the heart of Scottish governance. It has succeeded: decision making on education, health and the environment, among many things, is closer to the people whom those decisions affect. The experience of Scottish devolution has changed the terms of the debate. Few would seriously now argue that there should be no Scottish Parliament.
The Bill builds on the achievements of the 1998 Act and on the experience of devolution, and it further strengthens Scotland’s place within the United Kingdom. Just six months after being elected, we introduced the Scotland Bill on St Andrew’s day. In doing so we made good the Government’s formal pledge, in our programme for government and the Queen’s Speech, to implement the recommendations of the Commission on Scottish Devolution—the Calman commission, as it is more commonly known. However, this was not our commitment alone. The Labour party also pledged in its manifesto to implement the commission’s recommendations, and I welcome its ongoing support without seeking to compromise Labour Members’ important role in scrutinising the detail of the Bill. Once again, however, measures brought to the House on a major piece of Scottish constitutional legislation are founded on support from across the Chamber and within Scotland.
After the first decade of devolution, it was right to review the Scotland Act, to assess how devolution was working, and to ensure that the Scottish Parliament had the right powers to deliver for people in Scotland. In December 2007, the Commission on Scottish Devolution was established by a vote in the Scottish Parliament. Chaired by Professor Sir Kenneth Calman, the commission included Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat representatives, but it was independent of any political party and embraced representatives from business, education, the wider public sector and across civic Scotland. It gathered evidence from a wide range of sources and engaged directly with people in Scotland and elsewhere in the United Kingdom, through detailed consultation, public engagement events, oral evidence from a spectrum of interests in Scottish public and business life and survey evidence. Let me record my thanks to Professor Sir Kenneth Calman and his commissioners for their thorough, inclusive and well-evidenced work. I would also like to acknowledge the impressive and detailed work of Professor Anton Muscatelli and the independent expert group on finance, which supported the commission.
The commission’s final report was submitted jointly to the Scottish Parliament and the UK Government in June 2009, and was widely welcomed. Based firmly on the commission’s findings, the Scotland Bill seeks to implement its key recommendations. The commission’s first and overarching conclusion was that devolution had been a real success; that it was here to stay; and that the balance between reserved and devolved policy powers and functions was, broadly, in the right place. However, it also concluded that there was a shortcoming in how the Parliament was funded, specifically in terms of accountability. At the centre of the commission’s report and the Bill, therefore, are measures to improve the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament.
The Scottish Parliament can determine policy on a wide range of subjects and how and where money is spent, but at present it cannot be held effectively to account for raising the money it spends. The commission recognised this imbalance. The Bill addresses that imbalance by providing a package of taxation and borrowing powers that will see the Scottish Parliament become accountable for more than a third of the money it spends. In doing so, the Bill represents the largest transfer of fiscal powers from central Government since the creation of the United Kingdom. It is a radical but responsible step. Most significantly, we will create a Scottish income tax. We will create that tax by cutting 10p off the basic, higher and 50p rates for Scottish taxpayers, adjusting the block grant in proportion and allowing the Scottish Parliament—indeed, obliging it—to apply a Scottish income tax at a level of its choosing to meet its spending plans.
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
Can the Secretary of State tell me and those who have asked me to probe this point what will happen when companies in my constituency or those across the whole of Scotland are paid from south of the border? How will that problem be overcome?
Michael Moore
The hon. Gentleman makes a very fair point. Let me reassure him, first, that we have given a lot of attention to the technical issues of implementation, both in a high-level implementation group and, now, technical groups led by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, which are looking at all the different issues. The good news is that the software systems that were created for employees paying the Scottish variable rate under the original legislation were future-proofed and can identify Scottish taxpayers on the payrolls, wherever the company’s head office is, ensuring that the identification of taxpayers is made as painless a process as possible and that the right amounts of tax are taken.
Mr Donohoe
But what happens—this is the question that has been asked of me—when the person is domiciled both in Scotland and in England?
Michael Moore
They cannot be domiciled in both places. A person’s status as a Scottish taxpayer will be determined as set out in the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman looks more closely at the detail, I hope that he will be reassured.
Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab)
Before the Secretary of State moves on from this point, can he outline to the House what he expects the costs to the Scottish Government to be of the annual adjustment from HMRC? What will the cost of the variable tax rate be to the Scottish process?
Michael Moore
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is asking what the costs of running the system will be, but if he is, the draft regulatory impact assessment—I do not know whether he has had a chance to look at it yet—sets out our provisional estimates of the marginal costs of creating this functionality in the system. They are £45 million, with annually recurring costs of around £4 million. However, I should say to him—I am grateful for the chance to emphasise this—that a lot of that will depend on the detail that the Scottish Government and other stakeholders wish to see on documentation such as P60s. That will influence where those costs fall.
Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Following the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) made, I can see that there will be formulae for different categories of employees. As a Member of Parliament who is based here in the House of Commons and whose main home is in London, I want to be taxed in Scotland, but will the Bill allow that?
Michael Moore
Unfortunately for the hon. Gentleman, he will have to pay the Scottish rate of income tax. Parliamentarians are obliged to pay it regardless of where their main home might be.
As I was saying, the new powers will give Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Parliament a much more significant stake in the performance of the Scottish economy. The level of the Scottish rate will be Scotland’s to decide, and those who set the rates will answer directly to those affected by them. Power will rest with the Scottish people. In addition to income tax, the Scotland Bill will devolve to the Scottish Parliament responsibility for stamp duty land tax and landfill tax. That will complement its policy responsibilities for housing, planning and the environment. The Bill will also allow the Scottish Parliament to propose new devolved taxes, to sit alongside the other powers. However, the fiscal powers are not limited just to tax; they extend to borrowing powers, too. The Bill will allow Scottish Ministers to borrow up to £500 million for current spending when tax receipts fall short of those forecast.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
Will the Secretary of State confirm that the UK Government are currently negotiating with the Northern Irish Government about the devolution of corporation tax powers to Northern Ireland? Why would a UK Government consider that appropriate for Northern Ireland but not for Scotland?
Michael Moore
I would not characterise those discussions as negotiations per se, but people have certainly been raising possibilities in connection with what taxes might be suitable for other parts of the United Kingdom. As I have said, our proposals in the Bill are founded on careful consideration, and on impressive and important academic research that made it clear that if we wish to preserve the United Kingdom—I understand that the hon. Gentleman does not—we should ensure that, in increasing accountability in Scotland, we focus on income tax rather than corporation tax, and I am satisfied with that.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
The Secretary of State says that all this is part of defending the Union. Obviously his colleague Tavish Scott would share his view, but in his submissions to the Steel commission and then the Calman commission he suggested devolving
“income tax; corporation tax; fuel duty…tobacco and alcohol duties; betting and gaming duties; air passenger duty; insurance premium tax; climate change levy and landfill tax; inheritance tax; and stamp duties”.
Surely the Secretary of State does not disagree with his own colleague in the Scottish Parliament, does he?
Michael Moore
What I absolutely agree with is the process that we went through as three different parties that came together in the Calman commission, examining the options, scrutinising them and coming forward with a balanced set of proposals. We look forward to seeing fully costed proposals from the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. They have had months to produce them— indeed, years—but as yet we have seen nothing. That is something that the House will note and that will perhaps reduce the bluster on the part of some.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
To supplement the extensive list that my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) read out, may I add the power of the Crown Estate being returned to the Scottish Parliament? Indeed, four or five years ago five Liberal highlands MPs supported that very proposal in a ten-minute rule Bill. Is that still the position of the Liberal party? If so, will the Liberals try to use the Scotland Bill to ensure that the Crown Estate is returned to Scotland?
Michael Moore
The hon. Gentleman is tempting me to get slightly ahead of myself. He will see the proposals that we have set out in the Bill, taking account of the evidence that was supplied to the Calman commission.
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State agree that those Scottish National party Members who are getting animated on this issue could easily have made a submission to the Calman commission if they so wished? Instead, they stood for self-interest, rather than Scotland’s interest.
Michael Moore
If I may say so, the hon. Gentleman makes the point very neatly. Like him, I await the SNP’s detailed proposals on either fiscal autonomy or the Crown Estate, so that they might be debated. I believe that what we have in the Bill is the right balance, which will give Scotland the powers and accountability that it should have.
John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
On taxation generally, is not the lesson that we have learned, from the original Scotland Act 1998, through many Standing Orders over two Parliaments, that we are involved in an iterative process? What can be devolved should be devolved, but at a gentle pace, so that we can assimilate what has happened. In that regard, the agreement that the three parties have come to is the correct way to proceed at this time, but does not preclude further devolution when appropriate at a later stage.
Michael Moore
I quite agree with my hon. Friend, who puts his point in such an elegant way.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
I hope that my right hon. Friend is not accusing the Scottish National party of inconsistency. Its attitude towards the Calman commission is entirely consistent with its attitude towards the Scottish Constitutional Convention, which it also declined to join.
Michael Moore
Once again, my right hon. and learned Friend puts it very elegantly.
As I was saying before that brief diversion, the fiscal powers included in the Bill are not limited to tax; they extend to borrowing as well.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Michael Moore
I had nearly got back to the point I was at, but I shall give way.
John Robertson
On that point, I listened to the Secretary of State on the “Today” programme this morning, when he spoke eloquently about who would foot the bill if borrowing went—shall we say?—awry. What is to prevent a Government in Scotland from borrowing £500 million just before they lost power, to ensure that the incoming Government were saddled with a bill they could not pay?
Michael Moore
I would hate to destroy the cross-party consensus by making any inappropriate reference to a £155,000 million deficit, so I will move swiftly on. On the technical point the hon. Gentleman raises, if he looks again at the Command Paper, he will see that there are provisions to ensure that no Government will be able simply to borrow in order to stack up a capital reserve to spend in the future or to land a subsequent Administration in debt.
Mr MacNeil
On a point of clarification, would the right hon. Gentleman like to see power over the Crown Estate devolved to the Scottish Parliament?
Michael Moore
Those provisions are not in the Bill. That case has not been put forward in detail either by the Government of Scotland, of whom his colleagues are members, or by others. If such proposals were to come forward some time in the future, there could be a public debate, but as far as the Scotland Bill is concerned, it is consistent with the Calman commission and will make sure, formally, that we have a Scottish commissioner. That will ensure that Scottish interests on the Crown Estate are well represented in future.
As Secretary of State for Scotland, I am fully aware of my role in ensuring that we keep the Crown Estate focused on its interests across the whole of the United Kingdom. I have had two formal meetings so far and another is planned. That is probably as good a record as most recent Secretaries of State. I assure the hon. Gentleman and others who are concerned about the Crown Estate that we will continue to work to make it more accountable, more transparent and more focused on Scotland’s and the rest of the UK’s interests.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
I thank the Secretary of State, who is generous with his time. He keeps on saying that the provisions were in the Calman proposals, but only 35 out of the 63 proposals are in the Bill. Issues such as immigration, benefits, aviation and aggregates are all out. Why is the right hon. Gentleman so negative about so many of the Calman proposals, and why did he not implement those important measures?
Michael Moore
I understand that the hon. Gentleman will seek to catch your eye later, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am sure that he has studied the Command Paper along with the Bill in great detail, in which case he would have seen what we said about the aggregates levy and aviation duty. We made it clear that there is a difficulty with the aggregates levy because of issues before the courts, so it would be inappropriate to bring forward proposals at this stage. However, we make clear in the Command Paper our intention to devolve that area. Likewise on aviation duty, the Government are reviewing the position, and we still intend aspects of it to be devolved. It is the same with welfare. The Command Paper talks about the major reforms we are introducing and the fact that they will fully take account of devolution and reflect the spirit of what was in the Calman report. I hope that that goes some way towards reassuring the hon. Gentleman, although I suspect it will not.
Beyond the power to borrow up to £500 million for current spending, a Scottish cash reserve will be created so that the Government will be able bank and save money where tax receipts exceed those expected. These provisions will allow for effective financial management to deal with fluctuations in the new revenue stream of tax receipts.
We also set out in the Bill a brand new capital borrowing power of up to £2.2 billion. This will provide the Scottish Government with new means to invest in major infrastructure and other projects. It will be for Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Parliament to decide whether to borrow and, if so, for what purpose—a new Forth crossing, new hospitals, new schools or perhaps even a railway—and it will be for them to account to the Scottish people for those choices.
As a consequence of increasing the financial freedom and accountability of the Scottish Parliament to raise its own revenues, there will be a reduction in the existing block grant. The grant will continue to make up the remainder of the Scottish budget, however. That will ensure financial stability; it will ensure continuity of public service provision; and it will maintain the economic union that is so central to our United Kingdom. I know that views differ—both in this House, and further afield—on the broad issue of the block grant and, specifically, on the Barnett formula that underpins it. I do not expect those differences to be resolved today; indeed, the funding formula is not part of the Bill.
The Government have set out their position on the Barnett formula in their programme for government. While recognising the need to review the arrangements in time, our overriding priority is to tackle the deficit, and we will not consider a review until the public finances are returned to good health.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
I welcome the fact that the right hon. Gentleman is dealing with the Barnett formula. Will there be anything in the new proposals to prevent a Scottish Government from receiving funding for one purpose and using it for something completely different?
Michael Moore
I am not entirely clear what the right hon. Gentleman has in mind, but it is the essence of devolution that the Scottish Parliament be free to spend the money it receives—either through the block grant or as a consequence of its tax-raising powers—on what it wants to spend it on.
Mr Clarke
The right hon. Gentleman might have had the opportunity to look at last week’s Sunday Herald, which led on the issue of disabled children in Scotland and their families and carers. It pointed out that £34 million, arising from UK Department for Education funding, had been allocated, but that the money had not been received. In the new approach to these matters, will there be more accountability than can be seen in that case?
Michael Moore
First, I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman’s distinguished career of campaigning on these issues and to all the hard work and effort he has put into that over many years. The fundamentals of devolution since 1999 mean that the Scottish Parliament and then the Scottish Government are able to decide how to spend all the revenue that comes to them, whether it be directly through the grant or, to use a shorthand term, as a result of the Barnett consequentials. The hon. Gentleman is, of course, entitled to draw a distinction between how the money is spent south of the border and how it is spent north of the border. On occasions, the advantage might be the other way round, but I am afraid that that is the essence of devolution—it is for them to decide. The Bill enhances those principles rather than claws anything back.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
The right hon. Gentleman is right that the essence of devolution means that the Scottish Government should not have their funding ring-fenced, as some have suggested it should be. However, the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) related to accountability. I do not think that he was suggesting that we should ring-fence the funding transferred to the Scottish Parliament. It is a question of how there can be accountability to the UK Parliament. Perhaps there could be some way of bringing to this Parliament the ability to question the way in which money is spent by the Scottish Parliament. Intergovernmental and inter-parliamentary co-operation should allow such questioning to be pursued and, although my right hon. Friend has been trying to do that, he has not always been successful in getting the Scottish Parliament to respond.
Michael Moore
I respect the hon. Gentleman’s interest in these matters and I commend the way he has followed devolution developments over the years. The primary responsibility for accountability is to the Scottish Parliament. Governments of different hues have gone before the committee system and made statements in the Scottish Parliament; there are 129 Members of the Scottish Parliament and that is their primary function. Ultimately, as in this House, all are accountable to the electorate. What we are trying to do with accountability in this Bill is enhance the financial powers so that parliamentarians in Scotland can be made accountable not just for the spending decisions, but for the tax-raising decisions that precede them.
Let me finish my point about the Barnett formula. We do not intend to alter it or review its arrangements at this time. Nothing in the Bill, however, prejudges future changes to the funding formula. Rather, the Bill’s effect will be to make the Scottish Parliament more reliant on its own revenues and less reliant on the block grant to fund public spending in Scotland.
Stewart Hosie
In the Secretary of State’s comments on the Barnett formula—before the interventions—he said that he would not seek to change it until the economy has returned to rude health. I presume by that he means that this Government’s priority is to tackle the deficit. I see him nodding to that. It worries me slightly, then, that the additional capital borrowing powers require a consent per project, so will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that when a good, sensible, costed project comes up looking for additional capital consent, this Government will not use the excuse of the deficit in order simply to say no?
Michael Moore
I respect the thoroughness with which the hon. Gentleman usually approaches such matters, and he has clearly spotted the bit in the Command Paper that says that, as of 2013, we will introduce the new capital borrowing powers. In the first couple of years, there will be additional Treasury constraints in relation to the feasibility and appropriateness of projects, as a precursor to those capital powers being fully available, in 2015, to the Scottish Parliament and the Government formed from it.
Stewart Hosie
The Secretary of State has not quite given me the assurance I seek. The Command Paper also says that the powers will be subject to Her Majesty’s Government limits and controls. Will he confirm that the Government will not use their deficit consolidation plan as an excuse to say no to important new capital investment?
Michael Moore
I hoped that I had been clear, but I am happy to refer the hon. Gentleman back to the Command Paper, which is crystal clear on the availability of those powers from 2013, on the annualised basis set out. When the right projects are brought forward—as he and I seem to agree on this occasion, such projects will be those that help growth—such consent will not unreasonably be withheld. I hope that that reassures him.
Aside from the Government’s proposals, another set of financial arguments has been put forward as an alternative to the measures in the Bill. In recent months, there has been some discussion in the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish press about other approaches to fiscal devolution, and specifically about the idea of fiscal autonomy. However, its proponents have failed to come up with any credible proposals, or indeed any detailed proposals at all, while the economic arguments advanced in support of fiscal autonomy lack any firm evidence to support them.
Stewart Hosie
This is ludicrous. The Scottish Government have published the document, “Fiscal Autonomy in Scotland: The case for change and options for reform”. Saying that no work has been done is neither helpful nor accurate.
Michael Moore
The essence of debates in the House is that we are allowed to have opinions. I carefully used the word “credible”, and credibility is lacking in the Scottish Government’s proposals. The desperate efforts to undermine the proposals in the Bill have now been exposed for what they are.
Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)
Have the Scottish Government given an indication of the share of the national debt, and the share of the underwriting of the bankrupt Scottish banks, that the Scottish Parliament would be willing to undertake under fiscal autonomy?
Michael Moore
None whatever.
Implementing our new financial arrangements will require detailed work by the United Kingdom Government, the Scottish Government and a range of other stakeholders. We will approach the task in a carefully planned and phased way. The Bill provides the overall framework for the new arrangements, but more than legislation alone will be needed to give effect to the measures set out.
Mr MacNeil
On fiscal autonomy, how is it that tiny places such as the Faroe Islands, with a population of 48,000, and the Isle of Man, with 100,000, have infinitely more power than the Scottish Parliament, which represents more than 5 million people? Does the Secretary of State not see an anomalous situation there? The Scottish Parliament could easily have fiscal autonomy and control our fuel price, which in the Hebrides is £1.45 a litre, but in the Faroe Islands is £1.10 and 94p for petrol and diesel respectively.
Michael Moore
If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make his case in that way, people may or may not pay attention to him. What I am suggesting is based on Scotland’s size and where it is within the United Kingdom. I respect the fact that he and I fundamentally disagree about our vision for the future of Scotland. Those of us who are committed to the United Kingdom want a sustainable new financial basis on which Scotland is part of the Union. We believe that the Bill provides that basis, unlike the proposals that his party advocates.
The Bill and the Command Paper are not just about finance. The Calman commission examined the whole of the devolution arrangements and found that the division of policy responsibilities in the original Scotland Act worked well. It did, however, make recommendations to improve it further, which are reflected in the Bill. On justice, we will give the Scottish Parliament the power to legislate on air weapons, and give Scottish Ministers the power to set the drink-drive limit and a Scottish national speed limit. On health, we will give Scottish Ministers the power to decide which doctors in Scotland should be able to use drugs for the treatment of addiction. We will give the Scottish Government a formal role in key appointments to the BBC Trust and the Crown Estate.
Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)
On the question of health, will the Secretary of State explain why the power to make decisions on abortion in Scotland will not be devolved?
Michael Moore
If I may say so, that is a delicate subject, which was debated carefully in relation to the original Scotland Act. The decision of the House at the time was that the matter would not be included within that Act, and there was no such proposal brought forward by the Calman commission or in any representations that I have received subsequently.
We will give the Scottish Parliament power to administer its own elections, processes and procedures. There are also some areas where, for good and practical reasons, the Calman commission recommended re-reservation of powers to Westminster. These, too, are included in our Bill: for example, the regulation of health care professions and corporate insolvency.
Finally, we have taken the opportunity to address the question of the official title of the devolved Administration: “the Scottish Executive”, as it is currently styled. The term “Scottish Government” has now become broadly recognised. We propose to make that official.
Gordon Banks
On the Secretary of State’s comments about insolvency, the Bill seems to take responsibility for liquidations back to the UK Parliament, and I support that, but why not do the same for receiverships?
Michael Moore
The Bill reflects the balance of the representations that we have seen and the different legal basis on which matters have been approached in Scotland to date. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make the broader case in Committee, we look forward to hearing that.
Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)
On the Secretary of State’s point about the change to the Scotland Act to allow “the Scottish Executive” to become “the Scottish Government”, that term has been quite commonplace since the last Scottish general election. However, if there is no such thing as the Scottish Government in legislation, does he believe that the amendment tabled by the six separatists in the House is competent, as it refers to “the Scottish Government”?
Michael Moore
Far be it from me to be drawn into these matters. I can only assume that the amendment is competent, as it is on our Order Paper this afternoon. However, the common parlance is now “the Scottish Government”. It will help if Government Departments no longer feel that, legally, they must refer to the Scottish Executive, when nobody else does. Also, we will be able to refer to “the Scottish Government” in the House, rather than “the Scottish Executive”.
The Bill does not set out every proposal from Calman. In some cases, legislation is not required. For example, the commission recommended much closer co-operation and communication between Administrations and between Parliaments. Many of the proposals require change to working practices, to which the Government are committed. I know that Mr Speaker, the Lord Speaker and the Presiding Officer will determine the appropriate basis on which to develop relationships between our Parliaments.
In fulfilling our commitment to implement the Calman recommendations, there are some cases in which we have deviated from the precise recommendations because the policy content at UK level has changed, for example in relation to air passenger duty, which the Government are reviewing. In other cases, however, we have gone further than the commission, building on and strengthening its recommendations. This is the first time since the creation of devolution that a Government have brought forward legislation with such wide-ranging effect on the current settlement. Indeed, the Bill will fundamentally change the powers and responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament. For that reason, the Government will proceed with the Bill only with the formal and explicit consent of the Scottish Parliament. It is right and proper that the Scottish Parliament should examine the measures that we set out in the Scotland Bill. I welcome the thorough way in which it is going about its business, and I look forward to returning to discuss the provisions with the Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament next week.
Devolution breathed new life into Scottish politics and Scottish society. It brought government closer to the Scottish people, and it shaped a more confident Scotland in a more secure United Kingdom. The Bill extends that settlement for the future. The first chapter of devolution began with the Scotland Act 1998; the second chapter opened on St Andrew’s day, when we published this Bill. The Bill reflects the work of many across this Chamber and in Holyrood: work that we have undertaken together with consensus, strengthening Scotland’s future within the United Kingdom. I commend it to the House.
Jim McGovern
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I raised this point earlier with the Secretary of State. Is the amendment competent, given that it refers to a Scottish Government who apparently do not exist at the moment?
Pete Wishart
I will take interventions in a minute, but, if hon. Members do not mind, I will make a little progress first.
As I was saying, scrutiny will be left to the Scottish National party. Throughout the Bill’s passage, we will support measures that will effectively transfer power from the House of Commons to the Scottish Parliament. We will offer solutions to the inconsistencies and problems that have been identified. We will strenuously oppose the parts of the Bill that suggest the re-reservation of certain matters such as the regulation of health professionals and insolvency. We will also strenuously oppose financial measures that would mean a cost to the Scottish people of £8 billion since devolution.
Michael Moore
I want to nail this nonsense about the £8 billion. Of course it is possible to take one particular year, which happens to be the worst year in the middle of the worst recession since the war, and to make assumptions about a 20-year period on the back of it, but that is complete and utter nonsense. It is not the way the figure should be calculated. I refer the hon. Gentleman to the figures from the Scotland Office, which show a £400 million surplus.
Pete Wishart
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that correction. He has conceded that it is possible that this could have happened. However, I heard him say on the radio this morning that the figure was not £8 billion, but £700 million. That makes it all right, does it? That is all that Scotland would have lost over the past 10 years.
Michael Moore
The hon. Gentleman is usually fair, and I should hate him to miss the opportunity to be fair on this occasion. [Interruption.] Okay, I am being generous.
What I was doing was correcting the hon. Gentleman’s colleague in the Scottish Parliament, who had suggested that the figure could be £700 million. Again, it would depend on where the line in the sand was drawn. Conveniently, in this instance the line was drawn in 2010-11. When we roll forward to 2014-15, we arrive at a £400 million surplus rather than the nonsense of the £8 billion that the hon. Gentleman is talking about.
Pete Wishart
And the Secretary of State accuses me of being selective! It is not possible to be more selective than he has just been.
We will never agree on these issues. What we have seen as a result of the work of the Scottish Government is an £8 billion loss to the Scottish budget since devolution in 1999. The Secretary of State, making the same assumption, said that £700 million would be lost to the Scottish people over the past 10 years. That is unacceptable to us, and we will have nothing to do with it.
Pete Wishart
Why was independence excluded in the setting up the Calman commission? Why could we not have included everything? Had we done so, everyone would have taken part and put forward their own proposals to move Scotland forward. But, with their legendary cunning, the oh-so-clever Unionists said, “How do we trap the Nats when it comes to looking at how devolution continues?” They resorted to type, as they did on the constitutional commission. These cunning Unionists sitting around the table said, “What we’ll do is exclude independence from any discussion about the future of Scotland,” and that is what they did.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
May I ask the hon. Gentleman what happened to his party’s cunning plan: the referendum on independence?
Pete Wishart
The right hon. Gentleman asks a fair question, and he will find out the response in May, when a Conservative-led Government attempt to secure and save their seats in Scotland. Then we will have a debate about full powers for the Scottish Parliament and then we will see the result in his constituency and area.
I shall try to get back to what I was discussing. Believe it or not, I was still talking about areas of agreement, although I was moving on to areas of disagreement. As I said, the Bill contains modest ambition for Scotland but it also contains a range of very dangerous tax plans that could significantly hurt the Scottish economy and short-change the Scottish people. As we have seen in today’s exchanges, the tax plans are the most hotly contested, keenly debated and contentious part of these proposals. As I have said to the Secretary of State, by way of figures that he keenly and hotly disputes, this approach would have cost the Scottish people some £8 billion since the establishment of Scottish devolution in 1999. I heard him on the radio saying, “It would only have been £700 million”, but what we are starting with is devolving a series of measures—
Pete Wishart
I think we have been through all this before, but the Secretary of State might want another shot.
Michael Moore
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) cannot keep repeating this figure of £700 million. I was pointing out how it was slightly unfortunate that his colleague in the Scottish Parliament, Fiona Hyslop, chose to use one figure and ignore the £400 million surplus, which is the more relevant figure.
Pete Wishart
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for finally clearing that up.
I was talking about a measure that is actually a Tory budget cut to the Scottish Parliament and, unfortunately, the nodding dogs of the Labour party are supporting the Conservative-led Government’s cuts and assault on the Scottish budget. Why have they taken us into this measure, which is to the great detriment of the Scottish budget? The SNP will not accept a Tory cut of this magnitude.
Pete Wishart
I want to make some progress.
Airguns blight so many communities in Scotland, but it is perplexing that we shall get devolution on all airguns except the most dangerous ones. I am sure that the less dangerous ones also have an impact on communities, but surely, by definition, the most dangerous ones must cause most of the damage. Similarly, we are going to get devolution on speed limits.
Pete Wishart
I am going to try to make a bit of progress, even though it is the Minister’s good self who wishes to intervene.
Thank goodness we are getting devolution on speed limits, because we have long argued for that. Some of my colleagues in the Scottish Parliament have campaigned hard for it. However, we find that we are not going to get control over freight, heavy goods vehicles or anything that is towing a caravan. The most perplexing thing of all—you will like this one, Madam Deputy Speaker—is that the regulation of activities in Antarctica are to be reserved to this House. Just in case anyone was in any doubt, Antarctica is now listed as being reserved to the Westminster Parliament. Colonies of penguins are already pulling down the saltire and hoisting the Union Jack in joyous celebration of that fact. Thank goodness for the Scotland Bill letting us know that fact about Antarctica!
David Mowat
What I propose is that the allocation be done on a needs basis that is fair to the constituents whom I represent as well as to hers.
David Mundell
I very much respect what my hon. Friend says. He took part in a Westminster Hall debate on the issue, and I am sure the Chancellor and other colleagues are listening to him. We need to be clear, though, about whether he is arguing for a needs-based assessment across the whole UK. The hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) drew attention to the fact that there are significant differentials within England. The difference between the highest and lowest per capita public spending in England is £2,537, which is much greater than the difference between the Scottish and English average. We need to be clear about whether my hon. Friend and those who make the same argument want a change in spending within England, or just between the constituent parts of the UK.
David Mowat
The difference that we are really talking about today is the one between the constituent parts of the UK, but I have no difficulty with also applying that to the constituent parts of England. As I said, a needs-based formula is fair.
If my constituency of Warrington South, which has areas of great deprivation and some better-off areas, were in Scotland, the average constituent would receive £900 more. That is not fair—I get a considerable postbag about it. Today’s debate is not on the Barnett formula, but unless we address the matter at some point, it will become a tension in the Union from the other direction. We need to be cognisant of that, and we need to be careful.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)
It is a genuine pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), who said a number of things with which I agree entirely. Twice she said that this should not be a dry, academic exercise, the first time stating that it was not about the powers, but the policies that they are used for.
On the Bill’s proposals for enhanced financial powers, with which we agree, I wish to set out in a little detail precisely what we would do with them and why we back them. I would also like to clear up a slight misunderstanding: we will absolutely not stand in the way of the Bill. The SNP will never stand in the way of additional powers coming to Scotland. The reason for the reasoned amendment, and for the amendments that we will table in Committee and beyond, is our desire to strengthen the Bill by ironing out some of the flaws and making it better. That is what we should all be doing. Notwithstanding the fact that we are only 100 days away from the Scottish election, at heart we all want the Bill to be as good as it can be.
David Mundell
I am afraid that I do not understand the logic of the hon. Gentleman’s argument, because his so-called reasoned amendment suggests that the Bill is “unacceptable”. The logic of his argument is that if he does not succeed in making the amendment—and he must accept that he is unlikely to do so—he will be unable to support the Bill in an unamended form.
Stewart Hosie
It is rather obvious that we are seeking to make the Bill better. In its current form it will not work, and I will explain why in a moment. I do not believe that it will meet even the honourable objectives that the Government have set out.
David Mundell
I think that the House deserves some clarification from the hon. Gentleman. If the amendment that he is promoting does not prevail and the Bill progresses in essentially the same form, perhaps with only some minor amendments, is he saying that his party will not accept it?
Stewart Hosie
I now see what the Minister is asking. I have every confidence that, when we coalesce in Committee, the common sense of Members from all parties will lead to a number of successful amendments that will improve the Bill, perhaps by addressing the weaknesses in the financial powers, for example, to which the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun alluded. We will wait until the subsequent stages before deciding on the Bill, which might have been changed substantially by then.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
I begin by thanking all right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions to the debate. I shall try to deal with the detail raised in individual contributions as time allows.
Today’s debate is a testament to the significance of the Scotland Bill for the future of Scotland and the United Kingdom. Although the opening of the Scottish Parliament in 1999 was quite rightly greeted with much fanfare—I was pleased to play my part in that day, along with the hon. Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran)—there was, as has been said, a recognition at that time of the view, which was personified by the then First Minister, Donald Dewar, that devolution was a process rather than an event.
Equally, it must be recognised that this Bill is part of a process within that process of devolution. It is part of the Calman process. The Calman process is one that I have been involved in from the very beginning. It began back in 2007, when I joined the then Scottish Secretary, now Lord Browne of Ladyton and the Government deputy Chief Whip, and the three parties’ leaders at Holyrood, Wendy Alexander, Annabel Goldie and Nicol Stephen—I pay tribute to them, as did the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain)—in seeking to establish an independent review of Scottish devolution, 10 years on. I want to put on record the Government’s thanks not just to them, but to the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) and all those who worked with him, to Iain Gray MSP and Tavish Scott MSP, who joined us over subsequent months in the cross-party steering group to lay the groundwork on how to implement the recommendations that emerged from the review.
It gives me great personal satisfaction to be part of a new coalition Government who are seeing Calman through. I know that the Opposition remain behind the process, too, and I was pleased to learn that on his visit to the Scottish Parliament on 30 June last year, the current Labour leader said that
“we also recognise the need for Scotland to have an ability to vary its tax rates on the basis of the Calman commission proposals.”
I am glad there is at least one thing on the blank sheet of paper.
I welcome the considered remarks of the hon. Members for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) and for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex). It was clear not just from their remarks but from many Back-Bench contributions from both sides of the House that this Bill will indeed receive due scrutiny in this House. Any suggestion to the contrary would be quite wrong.
Let me pick up on one or two of the points about taxation that the hon. Member for Glasgow North raised. I emphasise particularly that the Government, the Scottish Government and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs are working together through the high-level implementation group and other forums to ensure that the tax system works in a way that minimises administration for business and makes it is as easy as possible for Scottish taxpayers to operate.
Our clear view is that the system that allows people resident in Scotland for tax purposes to have a distinct Scottish tax code will deal with many of the issues that have been reported. For example, the notion that everyone in Scotland will be required to fill in an income tax return when they do not do so currently is without foundation. I am sure that we will be able to return to these issues when we get into detailed examination of the Bill and debate the precise definition of “a Scottish taxpayer”. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen and, indeed, my hon. Friends, will come forward with the many and varied occupations that could provide a basis for challenging the definition of being resident in Scotland. I was not expecting to hear a reference to stage hypnotists today, but this shows the variety of issues in respect of which we can debate whether they should be devolved or not.
David Mundell
Of course, Antarctica is another issue—it became of interest to the Scottish National party only when it discovered that it might no longer be devolved. As became clear in the debate, SNP policy on it is not exactly clear.
The Calman process provides a great example of different political parties working together in the national interest, and I am sure that Opposition Members will in due course come to see the coalition Government in a similar light. If the Bill benefits from being cross-party, it also benefits from being cross-Parliament. I have no doubt that the Bill, and support for it, will be enhanced through being tested by the unique tricameral scrutiny to which it is subject—in this House, in the other place and in the Scottish Parliament.
I was extremely disappointed by the way in which Scottish National party Members derided the Scottish Parliament process of scrutiny, about which the hon. Member for Glasgow East spoke eloquently, and which is accepted as one of the great assets of the Scottish Parliament. As ever with the Scottish National party, however, the issue is not the level of scrutiny but whether the scrutineers agree with it.
Stewart Hosie
The Minister is wrong: there was no criticism of the process of Scottish Parliament committee scrutiny, which is a model, an exemplar, a fantastic system. The difficulty was the shameful way in which certain witnesses and potential witnesses were treated. I am happy to defend them against the committee involved, which treated some of them appallingly.
David Mundell
Anybody who reads the transcripts will realise that it was the way in which the evidence was given, and its quality, that was the issue in the sessions concerned. I look forward to the evidence of Scotland’s Finance Secretary when he is recalled to that committee. Given some of the comments of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), we will not take too many lessons from his party on respect within the context of a debate.
The commission’s initial task was to review
“the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 in the light of experience and to recommend any changes to the present constitutional arrangements that would enable the Scottish Parliament to serve the people of Scotland better, that would improve the financial accountability of the Scottish Parliament and that would continue to secure the position of Scotland within the United Kingdom.”
As we have heard today, there is an overwhelming consensus in the House and in Scotland that the Bill lives up to that vision. It builds on the success of the first 11 years of the Scottish Parliament, and addresses Holyrood’s one critical flaw: the lack of revenue-raising power to match its spending power.
On the amendment, I defer to the House and the Speaker, who selected it, but I am not sure how to respond. It clearly states that the Bill, in its present form, is unacceptable, yet when Scottish National party Members are asked whether they support the Bill, and whether they will support it if it emerges from the parliamentary process in broadly the same terms, they are unable to give an answer. I am afraid that the amendment strikes me as no more than a stunt—an opportunity to say, “We opposed it,” while agreeing with it. It is absolutely ludicrous that a party, which has some worthy people in it—the worthiness of the views of many members of the SNP has been acknowledged—should come to the House and say, when additional powers for the Scottish Parliament are proposed, “No, we don’t want them. Because we can’t have our own way, we’re not going to support the Bill.”
Stewart Hosie
The Minister has not listened to the debate. We made it extremely clear that we will not stand in the way of any powers being devolved to Scotland. As the Bill stands, however, it has huge flaws and needs to be improved. That is a rather sensible thing to say, one would have thought, on Second Reading.
David Mundell
In that regard, the hon. Gentleman’s comments are as incoherent as his comments in relation to the financial provisions. The SNP stands against the Bill, and will divide the House on the basis that the Bill is unacceptable. If the motion is carried, that, as Mr Deputy Speaker has indicated, would be the basis on which the Bill went forward. The position set out by the SNP is incoherent not just financially but constitutionally.
Let me now deal with some other, more sensible contributions. We heard from a number of old hands—old in terms of the devolution process, although not, of course, in terms of years. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), who described her experience of the scrutiny of the original Scotland Act. We also heard from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), who is no longer in the Chamber, but who is a great supporter of devolution whenever the opportunity arises.
The right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), who has campaigned on these issues for a long time and with some success, made a thoughtful speech. I can inform him that the United Kingdom Government as a whole will review charity law, and that, as we have made clear in the Command Paper, we felt that it would be better to enact the spirit of the Calman recommendations once that review had been completed in the rest of the UK.
A number of Members raised the question of changes in the income tax threshold. The Command Paper makes it clear that the Government would proceed on the basis of no detriment, and that any such changes would be accommodated in the block grant settlement.
I congratulate the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) on the fact that she is celebrating her birthday, although I am slightly concerned that she should enjoy doing so in combat with some members of the SNP. During the course of the debate, I realised that there was an obvious gift for her: the book by my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). As he revealed that he had a large number of copies, not only the hon. Lady but most of her constituents would be able to receive one.
My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) made some important points about cross-border relations. As both the Secretary of State and I are well aware, people living in the border regions have long been able to cope with the differences on either side of the border. For instance, the well-established difference in the licensing laws that used to prevail did not cause any particular difficulties. The existing devolution settlement does not cause any difficulties, and the revised settlement will not cause any either.
The hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) made the important point that strengthening devolution does not undermine the United Kingdom, but strengthens it. As well as giving us a précis of his book, my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South raised significant points about, for instance, pension plan payments. I can reassure him that the high-level implementation group involving HMRC is examining those issues at this moment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) intervened on my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South on the subject of the Barnett formula, and was subsequently involved in a discussion of the subject. I accept that concern has been expressed about the system of devolution funding, but tackling the deficit is the Government’s top priority, and any changes would await stabilisation of the public finances. The current funding arrangements—in essence, the Barnett formula—are set out in an administrative agreement rather than in statute, but the financing mechanism in the Bill would apply equally well to another way of calculating the block grant. The Bill does not fix the Barnett formula in stone for the future. It neither rules in nor rules out reform of the Barnett formula in the future; indeed, it is designed to be flexible in relation to alternative approaches to funding.
The right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), a seasoned campaigner on these issues, made a number of important points. I can reassure her that the Government are not devolving taxation in relation to savings and unearned income, so most of the things about which she expressed concern will not come to pass. The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson), who is no longer in his place, has always been a staunch supporter of the nuclear industry, and he is to be commended for that. However, he will be aware that, after due consideration, the Calman commission concluded that there should be no change to the arrangements for new nuclear power stations in Scotland.
The hon. Member for Glasgow North East made an interesting point about a Scottish office for budget responsibility, and I look forward to hearing more about that in the next stage of the debate. As I have said on previous occasions, I very much welcome the hon. Members for Glasgow East and for Kilmarnock and Loudoun to this House, because they bring a great depth of experience of the Scottish Parliament and of being in government in Scotland—in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, of course. I reassure the hon. Member for Glasgow East, in her absence, that the Government are committed to the Bill’s proposals on airguns and that I listened to the powerful case she made in that regard. Finally, I did welcome the contribution of the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle). However, although she is one of the younger Members of this House, it appeared that she was somewhat stuck in the 1980s.
My final remarks are for those people who have opposed this process, who have sat on the sidelines every time they have had an opportunity to contribute to this process and who are only able to come forward at the last minute with carping complaints. What I say to them is—
David Mundell
I have no time to give way.
I ask those people to reflect, in the few minutes left, on the fact that if they support this process and if their party supports more powers for the Scottish Parliament, they should not press their amendment to a Division. Interestingly, we heard a lot of quotes about academics who support the Calman process but, as Scottish Members will have noted, certain academics were very absent from today’s debate.
I want to finish on a specific financial point. It is absolutely essential that we scotch the idea of an £8 billion deflationary bias that been mentioned repeatedly but has no factual basis. There is no deflationary bias about the financing mechanism that is at the heart of the Scotland Bill. The Scottish Government’s assertions are based on a period when public spending rose faster than tax receipts—the very activity that resulted in record levels of borrowing and debt. That is unsustainable, and it is simply incorrect to infer that the result from that period equates to a deflationary bias. If implemented now, the means of financing would in fact benefit Scotland during the fiscal consolidation. I urge hon. Members to support the Bill.
Question put, That the amendment be made.