Mental Health

Kevan Jones Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Moon]

I am very aware of that research; the point I was about to make comes from it. The problem is that we often use the police as our first line in dealing with people with mental health problems, but they are not trained and equipped to carry out that role and function. We must do something about that. Otherwise, the person with the mental health problems is often dealt with as a disruptive element, and treated as if they are someone violent and aggressive, rather than someone who has a mental health problem. We must deal with that problem.

Words and anecdotes can be dangerous, particularly in the military. Research was published this week by the Defence Analytical Services and Advice agency on Falkland veterans. It found that 95 veterans had taken their own lives since the end of the conflict. That figure is lower than previously assumed, although each death is a tragedy for the individual and family involved. The research showed that, of the 26,000 mobilised, 255 died in conflict and 95 took their own lives, but 455 died of cancer. We sometimes forget that our armed forces community has problems we need to address that are not necessarily mental health problems.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I agree totally with my hon. Friend that each of those 95 people taking their own lives is an individual and family tragedy. My problem is that, in opposition, the Conservatives, including the Prime Minister, took the figure used prior to the research and quoted it freely, like confetti, to try to discredit what the Labour Government were doing for veterans’ mental health.

[Mrs Moon]

I tracked that figure back and found that it initially came from a story in the Daily Mail. That is how currency becomes fact.

[Mr Jones]

It was repeated by the Conservatives.

[Mrs Moon]

The repeating of such figures is the dangerous part as it places the perception in people’s minds. More dangerously, it goes into the minds of veterans, who then think, “I have served. I will have a mental health problem and post-traumatic stress disorder,” when the opposite is true. It is incumbent on all hon. Members to ensure that our work and the facts we share come from academically proven research. A study by Lord Ashcroft suggested that 92% of the public believe that all veterans will have a mental health problem, but research suggests that the opposite is true—that 90% do well.

We have had a 15-year report from the King’s Centre for Military Health Research, but we need a 20-year report showing the impact of the draw-down from Afghanistan and the increased numbers of veterans in the community.

In this debate on mental health, words can be dangerous—they can harm and create impressions in vulnerable minds. They can make people believe they have a problem they do not have, or that they have a problem that they can survive and grow from. Military mental health is robust. The transition to civilian life, alcohol misuse and reservists are risks that we must take seriously and tackle. The MOD will need to work more closely with the Department of Health. As people leave the armed forces and become civilians, civilian society organisations need to be equipped and ready to help. As civilians, we face the same problems together.

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[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), whom I would call my hon. Friend.

I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee and the sponsors of this debate. Remarkably, this is the second debate on this subject in less than a year. I think we should have one every year in order to raise issues that affect many in the House and many of our constituents. Our last debate was on 14 June 2012, when I spoke about my depression and the hon. Member for Broxbourne spoke about his struggle with mental illness. We were both a little wary about what the reaction would be, but it has been nothing but positive, to the extent that he and I have become the Eric and Ernie of the mental health conference circuit. I leave it to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the House to discern which of us is Eric and which is Ernie. I have received well over 1,000 e-mails and letters, and I think one was negative, but so what? As I said last time, if people did not like me before I spoke last year, they are not going to like me now.

The most remarkable thing for me is that some people I thought I knew well have told me about their own mental illness. I want to pick out three. I will not name any individuals, and I pick them out only to demonstrate that mental illness and depression are equal opportunity conditions. It is not determined by social status, education or what someone does in life. The first was a chief executive of a large council whom I have know for many years. If she was here today, hon. Members would think her a confident and forthright individual, but speaking to her after the debate, I learned that she suffered terribly from post-natal depression.

The second person was the chief officer for a large European defence company. I am sure that some people in the House have met him several times. He is the last person hon. Members might think suffered from mental illness but, as he explained to me, 10 years ago he suffered from a bad bout of depression. The third person, remarkably, is a retired general I know. Others in the House will know him. I will not mention his name, but again he is not someone we might think suffered from mental illness. I pick out those three to demonstrate my point. These are not weak individuals or failures in life, but confident individuals, and had they not told me, I would not have known, and neither would anyone else, apart from their immediate families.

I want to give another example. I was on Chester-le-Street in my constituency one Saturday morning. I was walking down the street and a lady, perhaps in her late 50s, early 60s, came up to me and said, “Mr Jones, can I thank you for what you said on mental illness?” I said, “Thanks very much.” She said, “I’m a recovering alcoholic who had 10 years of depression, but now, with the proper support, I am leading a good, constructive family life.” Normally, if I had walked past her in the street, I would not have thought that this well-dressed, middle-class lady had suffered from mental illness. That reinforced the point that unlike a broken leg, for example, we cannot see mental illness. Every day we pass people in the street or working with people—people we might know very well—who have suffered from mental illness or who has a family member who has suffered from it.

[Ian Austin]

What my hon. Friend is saying illustrates how important the speeches that he and the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) made were. The key point is that despite the number of sufferers who battle against these problems at some point in their lives, there is still a huge amount of stigma attached to them. That is why debates such as this are so important. On his point about health, it is quite right that the Government and public health organisations do so much on smoking, weight loss and reducing alcohol intake to improve health and well-being, but why does he think so little is said publicly, or by health organisations generally, to raise the problems of mental health?

[Mr Jones]

That is our great challenge, and not just for the present Government. We did a lot in the last Government to recognise the problem. I pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), who championed IAPT—improving access to psychological therapies—services, for example, but part of the problem is cultural. We do not talk about these issues in this country. I think that is changing—I will come to the stigma in a minute—but for anyone who has suffered from a mental illness or who has a family member who has, there is a sense of shame. There should not be, but there is a sense in which talking about it means that those people are failures, when I would argue the opposite. In many cases it is a sign of strength. With the right support, people can function normally, work perfectly normally and have a perfectly happy and productive family life.

[Yasmin Qureshi]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on being brave and speaking about his situation—as I congratulate the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) on speaking about his—and on highlighting the issue. There is a stigma attached to it, and we should discuss it more. My hon. Friend said that the lady who approached him said that she was able to recover after she was given support. Does he agree that some mental health treatments are often quite costly? There is a funding issue, so should we not also encourage the Government to ensure proper funding for services across the country for everyone who may have problems?

[Mr Jones]

We need to explode the myth that the problem is funding. I do not think it is; I think it is where the funding is spent—a point raised earlier. Indeed, funding that is properly spent on early interventions for people with mental health issues will save the NHS money in the long term, not cost it.

[Mrs Moon]

There is an issue with the interaction of mental health and alcohol. I repeatedly had texts from a dear friend of mine who is a minister in the Church. He had severe depression and was self-medicating with alcohol. His family and the police would repeatedly take him to mental health services, which would turn him away, because they said he had been drinking. He was drinking because he needed their services and could not access them. We have to ensure that mental health services cannot turn away people who have been drinking, but hold them until they are no longer under the influence of alcohol and then ensure that they access the services they need. The link between alcohol and mental health has to be explored and tackled.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Before the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) continues, let me say that interventions are becoming speeches in their own right, when they are supposed to be brief and pertinent to the point that has just been made. If we could return to that, perhaps it would help the flow of the debate.

[Mr Jones]

It is a statement of fact that people with mental illness will self-medicate, and alcohol is the most easily available drug. I am surprised by what my hon. Friend describes. If services are taking that approach to people, that is wrong. Her point is also linked to the bigger debate about access to alcohol.

Let me return to the issue of stigma, which my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) raised. He quite rightly said that we do not talk about it, but we are making some progress. I thank Mind, Time to Change, Rethink and the Royal College of Psychiatrists for doing a great job of raising the issue and tackling the stigma. We should remember that it is not just the individuals with mental illness who suffer, but family members too. Earlier my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero) mentioned her own family. A lot of families suffer in silence because they think there is no one to turn to. In many cases, they think they have failed in some way or wonder where they can get help. It is not uncommon—I have come across a lot of these cases—for carers to end up suffering from mental illness themselves because of the daily pressures on them.

The hon. Member for Broxbourne raised the issue of schizophrenia. I pay tribute to the Schizophrenia Commission, which reported towards the end of last year. It looked not only at services for schizophrenia, but at the stigma attached to. Again, the popular image in the media is that someone suffering from schizophrenia is potentially the mad axeman or woman next door who will come and kick the door in, when nothing could be further from the truth. When we describe people’s conditions, there is an onus on us all to describe them properly, because there are people suffering from schizophrenia who, with proper treatment and support, can function quite normally.

I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), who introduced the Mental Health (Discrimination) (No. 2) Act 2013—a good use of a private Member’s Bill. Like my friend the hon. Member for Broxbourne, I also pay tribute to Lord Stevenson, not only for championing the Bill through the other place, but for the work he does with his new charity. Did that legislation help in itself? Yes, it did, because it sent a clear signal that we were starting to take discrimination more seriously. Will it change things overnight? No, I do not think it will, but the more we talk about the stigma, the better people can address it.

I have been criticised—we see this occasionally in some newspapers—by people who say, “Well, it’s okay for famous film stars or even MPs to say they’ve suffered from mental illness,” as though it is somehow an easy thing to do, but I can tell Members now that it is not. I would like us to reach a position where people generally are talking about mental illness, so that if people are suffering in a workplace, they can open up to their colleagues. I should point out—not just to people in this Chamber, but to those in the wider audience—that most people who are suffering from a mental illness would be very surprised by the reaction if they told people. However, it is a big step, and I know personally that it is a very difficult one to take.

One of the best examples of that was from a Channel 4 programme that I appeared on after I spoke last year—I pay tribute to Channel 4 for its work to raise awareness of the stigma around mental illness. The programme had the great title of “Mad Confessions” and was presented by a very mad individual called Ruby Wax. By chance, it happened to include one of my constituents, Derek Muir, who suffered from depression. The programme started with him talking about his depression—he had been off work for a number of months and lives in Edmondsley in my constituency. At the end of the programme they got all his colleagues together in a room and he told them. It was the first they had known about it, but the reaction was very positive and supportive. That is the point we need to get to. Sometimes it is a big step for people suffering from mental illness or depression to admit what is seen as a frailty—although it is not. The strength is in opening up and asking for help.

One area that we need to do more work in is getting mental health policies in the workplace right. I pay tribute to BT and Dr Paul Litchfield for their policies, which have buy-in not just at the level of personnel managers, but from the board downwards. They are not only talking about getting people to talk to one another and open up about mental illness, but trying to be supportive of people with mental illness. When I was at a seminar with Paul last year, somebody asked him, “Why has BT done this? Is it just to tick the social responsibility box?” He said no. Indeed, the board was quite clear: the policy makes economic sense for BT. The message we need to get across to more and more employers is: “Why write off people who are valuable to your business, just because they happen to suffer from a mental illness?” BT is to be congratulated, and I certainly congratulate the board and Paul on their work in this area.

[John Glen]

The hon. Gentleman is making a typically brilliant speech on this subject. Will he also focus on what we could change in regard to education in our schools? For many, laying the foundations of understanding at an earlier stage, prior to the workplace, would be very effective in creating better outcomes and helping all those young people who have to witness mental health problems among adults.

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point: schools are important in this regard, and it is important to get young people to talk about the issue. I have a fantastic charity in my constituency called If U Care Share, run by Shirley Smith. It was created following the tragic circumstances in which Shirley’s 19-year-old son hanged himself. Her organisation goes into schools, youth groups and football clubs—Shirley is working with the Football Association and others—to get people talking about their emotions. We need to get more of that kind of work going.

The workplace is important. Although he is not in the Chair at the moment, I want to pay tribute to Mr Speaker, as well as to the House of Commons Commission. Following our last debate on this issue, they earmarked some funding for our own mental health in this place. Dr Ira Madan, the head of the unit across the road that MPs and staff can access, has told me that that was valuable in that it allowed her to assist Members with mental illness, and that there had been an uptake of the services since the money was made available. I would recommend that anyone who wants to go and have a chat with her should do so, as she is a very good and open individual. We must give credit to Mr Speaker and the Commission for that funding, because that was not an easy decision to make, especially as he was getting criticism from certain newspapers for giving special treatment to MPs. It is not special treatment; it is a vital service. Unfortunately, it is still not open to many MPs because of the stigma that surrounds mental illness.

[Norman Lamb]

I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for the incredible contribution that he has made to this subject over the past year or so. It was encouraging to hear what he said about Mr Speaker’s actions, and I want to alert him to the fact that I am trying to get every Government Department to sign up to Time to Change, so that they can all make the commitment to be an exemplar. If we are talking about what employers in the private sector should do, it seems to me that we should be taking the lead here.

[Mr Jones]

I have spoken at a few events with the Minister, and I want to thank him for his interest in, and understanding of, this subject. Getting Government Departments signed up to Time to Change would be a very good move, and he should please ask if he requires any assistance from me.

I want to talk about an issue that affects many of our constituents—namely, the work capability test and the ongoing issue with the company Atos. Is work good for people’s mental health? Yes, it is. Should people be in work if they can work? Yes, they should, with the right support. The problem with the work capability test, however, is that it is still not looking at people with mental illness with any sympathy or understanding.

I believe that individuals with long-term mental illnesses should be taken out of the current work stream, and that there should be a dedicated system for dealing with such people. I am not saying that we should write them all off and leave them at home without making any assessment, but we cannot continue with the present ludicrous system in which they are assessed by the same people who assess claimants with bad backs and other injuries. There are assessors with no expertise at all in mental illness. The assessment process is leading to some people’s conditions being made worse, and, in some cases, to people taking their own lives. One of my constituents has taken an overdose because of the trauma of being asked to attend an interview.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent point. Does he think it would be better if, instead of calling people with mental health conditions in for an interview, Atos simply sought medical reports on them and then considered setting up an interview with a suitably qualified examiner? Would that not be better than the production line that Atos operates at the moment?

[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The starting point should be the medical history of those individuals. Someone at the Department for Work and Pensions has said that it is not possible to identify such individuals, but that is complete nonsense. The process my hon. Friend has just suggested should be the starting point.

Professor Harrington’s review of the process put forward the idea of mental function champions. The Government spun that idea out a bit, as though it was the big answer to the problem, and I actually fell for it at the beginning, thinking that those people would be the ones who would carry out the assessments. That was not the case, however; they are there to give advice to the Atos assessors. We still have assessors with no mental health qualifications.

Representatives of the charity Mental Health Matters, a good advocacy charity in the north-east, have just met Atos to ask about the champions, and a number of questions have been raised. Atos would not tell them how the champions were recruited, and there is no indication that they need any formal qualifications. I understand that they are given a two-day Atos in-service training course, but they do not interact with any of the royal colleges or other outside bodies. Remarkably, they are also not accountable to the DWP. I put it to the Minister that he needs to tell the DWP that this must be looked at again. The process is not only causing a lot of heartache and difficulty for many of our constituents; it is actually not a good use of public money. People are failing the tests and going to appeal. At least one of my constituents has been affected in that way. They sometimes go through the process and end up in a residential hospital for a month, which must cost more than the amount of benefit that might have been saved.

We also need tailor-made programmes for people with mental illness. We should consider a separate work stream that could include voluntary work, given that many people with mental illness find the transition back into work through voluntary work easier than being thrown straight back in. We also need a pool of employers who understand and are sympathetic towards people with mental illness. There is an idea that such people can just join the normal job market and that employers will just accept that they might not turn up for work for a day or a week because they are not feeling well, but that is not the case. Those people will not keep their jobs for very long.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I was at a recent meeting of the Mind support group in Scunthorpe, and I was concerned to hear people saying that they were anxious about taking on voluntary work because of the impact it could have on their benefits and their access to other services. Does my hon. Friend think that that issue needs to be looked at?

[Mr Jones]

Yes, it does. If there were a separate work stream for those individuals, of which the voluntary sector was a part, we could use the voluntary sector to get people back into the world of work. I agree with my hon. Friend, however, that they should not be penalised for doing so through loss of benefits.

I also want to talk about the old issue of the NHS reorganisation. It provides some great opportunities for doing things differently, and there should be an opportunity for local providers to bring in the third sector. I have one problem with that, however. I am president of the local Mind, which has just received a contract to provide certain services, and the process it has to go through is very difficult. I am not suggesting for a minute that such organisations should not be performance managed, because there are some large contracts involved, but we need an easier system for applying for the contracts. We also need to ensure that when bodies are competing for the contracts, people can access the services.

Another area of concern is the increased waiting lists for IAPT services. I know that the world has changed since 1 April, and people who lobby on behalf of mental health services are going to have to change their lobbying tactics. It is important to ensure that commissioning groups have an understanding of mental illness and of the importance of IAPT services.

If we look at the Royal College’s report, we find that people are going through the system saying they are quite happy when they get a diagnosis, but are then told they might have to wait up to a year for a talking therapy—that is just no good. What we need—again, this will save the NHS and the economy money—is a quick service such as the IAPT service. I know from people in my own constituency and others who have written to me that the wait is totally unacceptable. If we want to make this work, we have to make sure we have a joined-up service and that people who want a diagnosis get the support they need quickly. Otherwise, people will be stuck in this no man’s land between diagnosis and treatment.

Another area on which the new organisation needs to focus is local government. Local government now has an important role in health care through health education and protection. The Royal College of Psychiatrists is working with councils on a project to have champions at the local level. It is important for local councils to have councillors or chief officers who can champion the need for mental health services locally.

I welcome the debate. It is important to talk about these subjects, and the more we do, the better. To adopt an old BT phrase, “We need to talk”. If we talk about it—whether it be in schools, the workplace or here—we will erase the stigma of mental illness. That has to be the goal: mental illness being treated just like any other long-term condition. People should not be afraid of admitting to it and should not feel that they cannot be helped. We also need to recognise that in many cases—including, I have to say, my own—it can be strength rather than a weakness.

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[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Like all the other Members who have spoken, I welcome the debate. It is important for us to have it, and I hope that it will become an annual event. It is a way of reducing the stigma that is attached to mental illness, increasing understanding of it, and also, quite correctly, holding the Government to account on how their policies develop.

There is still an enormous amount of discrimination against people who have suffered from some kind of mental illness or breakdown, or have spent time in a long-stay institution. Like all discrimination, it is incredibly wasteful of resources, because it means that those people cannot contribute to society in the way that we want, and as a result we all lose out.

I want to raise two points. The first relates to local experiences, and the second to national policies. My borough has an image as being relatively wealthy and high-achieving, and there are certainly some wealthy and high-achieving people in it. Islington council, however, undertook an interesting exercise: it set up a fairness commission to examine the quality of the delivery of public services to everyone in the borough, with the aim of ensuring that the purpose of the council’s policies, including health policies, was to reduce inequality.

According to a briefing that the council gave me before the debate, it is estimated that in my borough

“30,000 adults experience depression or anxiety disorders in any one week…. Mental ill health among 5 to 17 year olds is estimated to be 36% higher…than the national average”.

The briefing states that more than one in eight children are

“experiencing mental health problems at any one time.”

It also states:

“The suicide rate is… 8 per 100,000…second highest in London”,

and broadly

“similar to the national average”.

Physical ill health is often related to mental health problems. According to the briefing,

“Poor mental health was found in 43% of all Islington patients who died of cardiovascular disease before the age of 75. As people live longer, there are an increasing number of people with dementia, although Islington has a relatively smaller number of older people”—

only 9% of the population. Islington has a 70%—higher than average—rate of diagnosis of dementia. Increasingly, as others have pointed out, people who care for adults with mental health problems are much older people who find it extremely difficult to cope. Those carers need more support, so that they are better able to look after people who are becoming more and more dependent.

Both my local council, in its study, and the Mental Health Trust draw attention to the enormous over-representation of people from black and minority ethnic communities in the context of diagnosis and, in particular, the context of long-stay institutions. We should ask whether there is, in fact, a higher level of prevalence, or whether there is a perception that it is somehow OK to put black and minority ethnic people into long-stay institutions, whereas it would not be OK in the case of other people.

Indeed, I urge Members to visit long-stay institutions and talk to people resident in them. I get the impression some of them have had very difficult lives and very little support, and that they have led very isolated existences. I also get the impression that many of them have very few friends and very little representation, and whereas those who come from a fairly stable family background with a series of understanding relatives are able to get representation and often win their cases where there has been a section order, others do not get the same quality of representation and consequently do not win any tribunal cases.

In an earlier speech, I made an intervention about the role of the voluntary sector in dealing with mental health conditions. As I have pointed out, my borough has considerable problems in dealing with mental health, but we have a number of very good local organisations that often deal with mental health issues in an innovative and supportive way, and are often very successful. Nafsiyat, an intercultural therapy centre based in Finsbury Park which was founded by the late Jafar Kareem, was groundbreaking in its ideas of looking at the cultural background and ensuring culturally appropriate treatment of people with mental illness, for example by making sure there are people who speak the necessary languages and understand something of the specific cultural background. The Maya Centre, which particularly relates to women, does much of the same work, as does ICAP or Immigrant Counselling and Psychotherapy, a counselling and psychotherapy centre originally founded by people in the Irish community that now deals with a much wider community.

We also have a considerable refugee population. A very good group called Room to Heal deals with people who have achieved asylum status in this country. They have often been through the most dreadful experiences of torture, which are frequently dealt with in a community way. People meet regularly and do things together, such as gardening and taking trips. Many of them improve a great deal and get through the terrible traumas they have suffered. I find it very interesting talking to people from different countries all around the world who have all experienced torture in one form or another and who have benefited from these activities. We also have the Refugee Therapy Centre and the Women’s Therapy Centre, which also provide therapy on a culturally sensitive basis. Finally, we have the Holloway Neighbourhood Group stress project.

These are all valuable groups, and they all depend on contracts obtained either from the local health authority or neighbouring health authorities. All of them spend a great deal of time filling in forms in order to gain what are often relatively small sums of money for relatively short-term contracts. Health authorities must value these organisations and look to use them. We should give out the message that we recognise that the voluntary sector has a very important complementary role to play in supporting statutory services in the treatment of mental illness. I do not see them as competitors or rivals; I see them as complementary.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

I agree with what my hon. Friend says about the smaller contracts these organisations get and the bureaucracy they have to deal with. Does he agree that some of them could bid for larger contracts to provide services as well, but the bureaucracy and financial hurdles involved in bids for such contracts make it very difficult for them to do so?

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I agree. The bureaucracy involved and the skewing of the contract culture frequently means voluntary organisations that have a tradition of the voluntary provision of services—often in an effective and innovative way, as I have described—are debarred by the contracting process. Instead, very large private sector medical companies come in to privatise those services and run them in a profit-related way, rather than the voluntary sector, which is motivated not by profit, but by the care of the individuals. I urge Ministers to look very carefully at how services are contracted out to the private sector, which is motivated by profit, as opposed to voluntary sector organisations, which often have a very good record in looking after people who need help and support.

We must also recognise that if we are to deal with mental illness problems in any community, there must be a level of understanding that goes wider than just what GPs, hospital doctors and the statutory services do. There is the question of signposting. I pay tribute to local organisations—voluntary groups, churches, mosques —that understand the situation and help signpost people into getting help and support, because many people in our society with some degree of mental illness get no support whatever. This debate may well help us to understand that that is needed.

We must also recognise that there is a cost involved. The cost to health budgets of dealing with mental health is very high. Unfortunately, the policy of community care for the mentally ill has often resulted in lack of care, and in deep isolation and serious problems for the individuals concerned.

I recall a debate in the House in 1986. The Select Committee on Health was looking in an interesting and critical way at the closing down of large asylums and long-stay institutions, such as Friern Barnet and Napsbury, that existed all around London, and, indeed, all around the country. The Committee warned that community care should not be seen as a cheap option, saying it should instead be seen as an opportunity, but as one requiring comprehensive support, support workers and care.

I am sure all MPs have talked at their surgeries with neighbours of those with mental health problems who have come to complain about noise and inappropriate behaviour. Many of them say to me they are sympathetic to the plight of the individual, and recognise there is a lack of support. We should not see community care as the cheap option. It is an option that can be followed, but a great deal of support is also required to carry it through.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Does my hon. Friend also agree that under the new NHS structure, local councils will have to do a lot more in terms of understanding the needs of people with mental health conditions?

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[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

I apologise to the House for not having been here at the start of the debate. I was in the Finance Bill Committee, and unfortunately I cannot be in two places at the same time. I also apologise for missing the introductory speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow). I pay tribute to everything he has done to put mental health on Parliament’s agenda.

It is unquestionably the case that Parliament has got its act into gear on this. I refer to Parliament rather than the Government or the Opposition because this is genuinely an all-party matter. Last night I went to a very encouraging event, which other hon. Members attended, run by the Alzheimer’s Society. The Minister was there, as was the shadow Secretary of State, a Conservative Minister, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, and they spoke with their customary eloquence. In fact, to be fair, there were not very many Members there. I think that other people were detained with matters that had something to do with Europe. However, all of us who were there would have to acknowledge that no matter how eloquently the Minister or the shadow Minister spoke, the most impressive speech was by a very feisty medical lady who had Alzheimer’s and discussed the importance of talking about her condition and people talking to her about it.

That emphasises the fact that there is a blurred division between people who have mental problems, allegedly, and those who appear not to have them. There genuinely is not a clear distinction, other than at the extremes. If we were asked who here has perfect mental health, we would not necessarily all volunteer with alacrity, any more than we would if someone asked who has perfect physical health. It is rather like the Bible saying that the person who is without sin has to step forward. We would not say that because we acknowledge that we all have our own peculiarities and weaknesses and are not as mentally robust as we would always wish to be.

I was made aware of that the other day when I went to an event organised by Liverpool Personal Service Society, which is a well-established charity. The event was a memory day for elderly people in which it invited me to participate. The old ladies and old men were passing round objects that came from their youth, and music was being played in the background that also came from their youth. The environment was made to look almost like a 1950s drawing room. I was very struck by what it did for them. It was like the events organised by football clubs such as Everton and my own local football club in Southport, which bring old men together to talk about teams long since vanished and the glories of the past.

I picked up on two important features of that occasion. First, it was undoubtedly beneficial to the people concerned, who have dementia. Secondly, it is not in any way onerous for anybody else to participate in it. It is incredible fun. It is really enjoyable to hear these people talking about things that are now obsolete, like cigarette cases, nylons of the kind that people had in the war, or EPs—things that we no longer have and that our children do not even understand. That brings it home to us that memory is very relative. There is no magic cut-off point between a memory lapse that may afflict us at any time—

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Nick Clegg knows all about that.

[John Pugh]

We are presumably talking about unintentional memory lapses—senior moments that may afflict any of us.

There is no absolute cut-off point between mildly obsessive behaviour and obsessive compulsive disorder, between mood swings and genuine bipolar conditions, or even between irrational fears of which everybody is sometimes a victim and some of the conditions we would call paranoia. There is a continuum; it is, to some extent, a matter of degree. It is even possible, apparently, to have hallucinations without having schizophrenia. Delusions are not unique to asylums; there are many victims in this place. There is nothing especially rational about clever, civilised people gathering here every Wednesday at 12 o’clock just to shout at one another.

There are two aspects to addressing the stigma of mental health. One of those is to persuade people that this can happen to anyone, including MPs. That is very important. The other job is to persuade the public that mental health is not an either/or, black/white distinction. I recognise that there are conditions such as serious neurological malfunctions, deterioration of the brain, and so on. Affective disorders can be evident in people classified as being well and also in people classified as being unwell with mental health issues. What determines the classification is not only the severity of the condition—the extent to which the person is down one continuum or another—but the capacity of society to deal with the condition and the ability of the person to cope within society with the condition. The cultural comparison made by the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) is useful in this context. The mental health of a society and the mental health of individuals are intertwined, and one is the index of the other. I wonder whether, when we talk in this place about producing a prosperous society or economic growth, or doing something about social mobility or social inequality, we ask ourselves sufficiently whether we are doing enough to make society a happy place for us all to live in.

Let me add one other point with which I think you, Madam Deputy Speaker, will be au fait. Community treatment orders were a bone of contention throughout the passage of the Mental Capacity Act 2005, when I served on the Bill Committee. We have to review that issue, and the Minister needs to make a response. I think that we made the right decision, but that depends on whether the Act is understood and implemented properly. There is a genuine case, particularly given some of the variations, for trying to see whether we have got it right.

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Lamb]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I was going to mention his contribution, even though I was not present to hear it, for which I apologise. As a Member of Parliament, concerns have been raised with me about the suitability of those tests for people with mental health problems, and I was going to suggest that I should talk to the appropriate Minister at the DWP. I am of course happy to do that. Someone else made the point that this is not a question of not addressing the need to help people get back into work. Work is particularly important in relation to people suffering from mental ill health, and the idea that we should simply leave them undisturbed and out of work for the rest of their lives is totally wrong. The way in which we handle this is incredibly important, however, and if we have more to learn in that regard, we should be prepared to learn the lessons.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

I made the point in my speech that work was good for people with mental illness. The problem is that the present system is inefficient and costly, and that it is creating absolute agony for many people. I know that the Minister has a great understanding of, and a deep passion for, the subject of mental health, and I urge him to put pressure on the DWP to change the system. We are not asking that people should be excluded completely from work capability tests; we are just asking for the system to be changed.

[Norman Lamb]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding me that he, too, had made that point. I knew that someone else had talked about it, but I could not remember who it was. I take his point; I have heard it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) made a thoughtful speech in which he talked about reminiscences. Oh! He has gone! Even though it pains me, as a Norwich City supporter, to talk about Everton, it appears that Everton and even Southport have done some very good work in these areas. My hon. Friend talked about a continuum of mental health. That was a good point, well made. He also mentioned community treatment orders and the need to look at how they are working. I will certainly reflect on that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) made a powerful contribution about the mental health aspects of female genital mutilation, a most horrific experience suffered by so many young girls. I really pay tribute to her for the work that she has done on that issue. The fact that there are 66,000 females in this country who have suffered this assault was an extremely striking point.

The hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) talked about waiting times for access to treatment. He asked if he could gently challenge the Minister—I appreciated that approach. On the mandate for the NHS Commissioning Board, NHS England has been very clear that we expect it to assess the scale of the problem of access, including for IAPT. Other Members have raised the question of whether we are meeting the IAPT programme’s four-week target. We want the NHS Commissioning Board to assess the scale of the problem with a view to setting access standards.

One of the big problems relating to what I regard as the institutional bias against mental health is that on one side of the equation we have the 18-week maximum waiting time for physical health, which is a very powerful political driver of where the money goes, yet we have nothing equivalent for mental health on the other side. That, to me, is a lack of parity of esteem. For people with mental health problems, early access is particularly important to ensure that their condition can be halted, if possible, and the deterioration stopped. The hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green made a good point there, and he also rightly talked about the importance of consistency and continuity of care.

I want to mention four of the most important things that this Government are doing to create the environment and incentives for improving mental health across the system as a whole. The first is the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which creates a “parity of esteem” so that mental and physical health share the same importance, as we have discussed this afternoon. Changing the law is just the start, but it sends a clear signal—that mental health is important, and that the health and care system can and must play a leading role in changing attitudes across society as a whole.

Secondly, there is the mandate the Secretary of State has issued to NHS England. It shows the importance we have ascribed to mental health and makes it clear where improvements are needed. The mandate makes clear our overarching goal—that mental health must have equal priority with physical health across all aspects of NHS work. In particular, we have highlighted the need to close the gap in outcomes between people with mental illness and the population as a whole, as well as the absolute imperative to ensure that people can access the services they need when they need them. Neither of these facets of good mental health treatment is entirely up to scratch at the moment. I think we all recognise that.