Armed Forces Bill

Debate between Kris Hopkins and Kevan Jones

Tuesday 24th November 2015 Public Bill Committees

[The Vice-Chamberlain of Her Majesty’s Household (Kris Hopkins)]

I want to respond to the two new clauses. I acknowledge the sentiment with which the hon. Member for North Durham articulated their content, but we are not convinced of the need to incorporate them, and I want to reassure the hon. Gentleman and the Opposition on that matter.

We do not believe it necessary to put into legislation the publication of data that are set out in new clause 2. Civilian authorities are under no such duty; nevertheless, they publish such information. It may reassure Committee members if I briefly set out the existing requirements within the service justice system for the collection and publication of crime statistics. The Service Police Crime Bureau, which acts in all three services, already records allegations of rape and sexual assault that are made to service police. That information is released regularly in response to parliamentary questions and freedom of information requests. In addition, it is uploaded on to the Ministry of Defence’s online publications scheme, where it can be freely accessed. It therefore gives a good picture of the extent of that type of offending within the services. However, work is ongoing to improve the way that the service police record crime, and a crime register is being established—as mentioned in the supplementary note added by the Ministry of Defence—which will lead to further improvements. Essentially, a register is going to be put together that will build upon the information already out there.

For each year, the service prosecuting authority records the number of cases referred to it, the number of cases referred that involve charges and the number of cases where conviction is secured. In addition, the Military Court Service regularly publishes on the internet details of every case heard at the court martial, including offences, outcomes and punishments. Those data give a strong indication of the proportion of cases referred from the service police to the Service Prosecuting Authority that were prosecuted and the conviction rate in each case.

In conclusion, information about the types of crimes and the prosecution of them is available, and the MOD is actively working to improve the way in which those data are put forward. What came through from last week’s evidence was the leadership being offered in the service to make sure people are transparent. General Carter’s leadership on this demonstrated that people want to be open and to make sure the information is available, and it is appropriate that they are already actively seeking mechanisms to help them be more transparent. I therefore urge the hon. Gentleman to withdraw new clause 2.

New clause 3 is not necessary. The armed forces already have procedures in place to ensure that allegations of offences covered by the new clause, including sexual assault, are handled appropriately, and the commanding officer’s duties in that respect are clear. The starting point is that if a commanding officer becomes aware of an allegation, or of evidence, that would indicate to a reasonable person that a service offence may have been committed by someone under his command, he must ensure that it is investigated appropriately. That is already a specific statutory duty under section 115 of the Armed Forces Act 2006, and the commanding officer must therefore refer the matter to the service police if that would be appropriate.

In so far as allegations of sexual misconduct are concerned, there is a specific requirement in the manual of service law that a commanding officer take legal advice in such cases. In addition, the Army has adopted a belt-and-braces policy, which requires that any complaint or allegation involving a sexual element be passed to the service police for investigation and that legal advice be obtained if there is any doubt.

It is important to note that the service police can and do act on their own initiative, so what happens is not dependent just on the behaviour or activity of the commanding officer. If a witness or victim believes they have not had the commanding officer’s support, or they want to go directly to the civilian police or the service police, they can do that. The service police will actively go in pursuit of a perpetrator they come across, whether they are out patrolling or have been passed information by the civilian police.

It is important for many people out there observing these things to note that the commanding officer does not blindly go into a situation. They are trained and taken to a highly competent level in terms of understanding their obligations, and the requirements on them, as a leader. Given the standard of the training, and the victim’s opportunity to bypass the commanding officer and to go directly to a civilian police officer or a service police officer to gain support, the new clause is not required. I therefore urge the hon. Gentleman not to press it.

[Mr Jones]

That comes as no surprise—I was a Minister at the Ministry of Defence, and this is my third Armed Forces Bill. What we seem to be getting from the Ministry yet again is the idea that it agrees that there is a case for the two new clauses, but that they will somehow inhibit us in terms of the current position. What we have seen with previous amendments is that the MOD will finally get to our position. We have not had a great deal from the hon. Member for Keighley in terms of arguing why the new clauses are not needed. I will seek the Committee’s leave to withdraw new clause 2, but I give notice that we may return to these amendment on Report. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 4

Civilian investigations and prosecutions relating to murder, sexual assault, and rape

‘(1) The Armed Forces Act 2006 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 118 [Duty of service policeman to notify CO of referral to DSP] insert—

“118A Civilian investigations and prosecutions relating to murder, sexual assault, and rape

(1) Criminal investigations into allegations of murder, sexual assault, and rape by and against members of the Armed Forces shall be undertaken by the relevant civilian police authorities.

(2) Criminal prosecutions of charges involving murder, sexual assault, and rape by and against members of the Armed Forces shall be undertaken by the Crown Prosecution Service.”’— (Mr Kevan Jones.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Mr Jones]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

The important issue is whether the service police have the capability to deal with rape and serious sexual assault. There was a time in the UK, which I think many can remember, when civilian police forces dealt with rape in a very unsatisfactory way. All police forces have made great advances and take rape seriously. They have dedicated officers and ensure that the victim is treated with the respect that he or she requires. That includes ensuring that victims are not made to feel guilty about what is an horrendous act.

As to expertise, anyone who has met police officers who deal with victims of rape or serious sexual assault will know that they are highly trained and that they are also vetted to make sure they are the correct individuals to undertake the work. Not too long ago, it seemed quite acceptable in civilian life for male officers to deal with female rape victims. The issue addressed by the new clause is whether, when individuals in the armed forces make accusations of rape or serious sexual assault, the service police have the right expertise—I do not question the officers’ integrity—to investigate allegations at the level that would happen in civilian life.

The figures speak for themselves. In 2013, the three service police forces referred 26 cases involving rape and 56 involving sexual assault to the Service Prosecuting Authority. In London, the case load of an individual officer dealing with sexual assault or rape is between 12 and 31 cases. Not only do civilian police have training and expertise but, given the number of cases they deal with, they clearly see a wider range, which has an effect on their ability to investigate. If records are not kept—as they would be under new clause 2—victims of serious sexual assault or rape need to be confident that it will be properly investigated when they report it. Any doubt about that could lead to a reluctance to come forward.

The Ministry of Defence and the military need to deal with the fact that service police are members of the armed services. There may be a perception by victims—although it may be mistaken—that the military investigates the military. Allowing civilian police to have precedence in investigating these cases would reassure the potential victim that there is a degree of independence. It would be wrong for anything to lead to a victim of sexual assault or rape not to come forward because they felt that in some way their allegations would not be taken seriously or investigated properly.

Given the numbers of cases that the three service police forces deal with, can we really expect them to develop the expertise that we expect in civilian life today? I am not sure we can, not only because of the cost of training individuals, but because of the number of cases that the three service police forces deal with, which is thankfully quite small, in terms of the overall service community.

[Kris Hopkins]

This is an extremely serious matter, and it is right that we examine it. I hope to give some reassurance to members of the Committee, including the hon. Member for North Durham, that our house and the MOD’s house is in order and that we can address these issues.

I believe the service police and the Service Prosecuting Authority have the necessary expertise and independence to effectively investigate and prosecute offences of murder, rape and sexual assault by and against service personnel. The service justice system has been scrutinised by the UK courts and by Strasbourg, and it has been held to be compliant with the European convention on human rights for both investigations and prosecutions within the UK and abroad, where the civilian police do not have jurisdiction. The service police have been held by the courts to be structurally and in practice independent of the chain of command.

I want to talk about capability. The service police are trained and able to carry out investigations into the most serious offences at home and abroad. Training takes place at the Defence College of Policing and Guarding. All prospective members of the special investigation branch, which investigates serious crimes, must pass a serious crime investigation course before being selected for that unit. Officers receive specialist training on handling sexual offences, investigative techniques, forensic awareness, dealing with witnesses and suspects, the preservation of evidence and interacting with victims. In addition, selected service police attend a range of specialist and advanced detective training courses at the DCPG or externally, at the College of Policing or at training providers accredited by the college.

Prosecutors at the Service Prosecuting Authority must undertake the training necessary to effectively prosecute serious cases. For example, the prosecution of serious sexual offences requires attendance on the Crown Prosecution Service’s rape and serious sexual offences specialist training course, and the SPA ensures that decisions on charging in such cases are only taken by prosecutors who have undertaken that training.

It is important to address the issue of independence raised by the hon. Gentleman. The Director of Service Prosecutions is an independent civilian office holder, exercising statutory powers under the superintendence of the Attorney General.

The Service Prosecuting Authority is created by statute, and the three main elements consist of the creation of the office of Director of Service Prosecutions and his appointment by Her Majesty, with the director appointed on the basis of a fair and open competition; the provision for who may act on his behalf, with the director specifying those lawyers who may act on his behalf; and the necessary statutory powers in relation to prosecutions in service courts being given to the director personally, not the chain of command. The service police and the Service Prosecuting Authority have the necessary expertise and the independence to effectively investigate and prosecute the full range of offences overseas and at home. Therefore, I urge the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the new clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

It is habit forming.

[Kris Hopkins]

I know. It is important to lay out where we are and why we cannot support the new clause, but to provide a solution to the situation as well. Our view is that sections 146(4) and 147(3) of the 1994 Act are redundant. They have no legal effect and their existence is inconsistent with the Department’s policy on homosexuality within Her Majesty’s armed forces, and the Government’s equality and discrimination policies more generally. Although there is no reason to retain these provisions, the wording of both sections 146(4) and 147(3) applies not only to the discharge of members of Her Majesty’s armed forces but to the dismissal of members of the crew of a UK merchant ship. The latter is not restricted to defence purposes. Accordingly, it would appear unfair and inconsistent to amend the provisions in the 1994 Act only on behalf of the armed forces.

We are therefore seeking an appropriate legislative vehicle that would enable sections 146(4) and 147(3) to be repealed in full. One option would be to refer these provisions to the Law Commission, recommending that they give consideration to including them in the next statute law repeals report. On that basis, I urge the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the new clause.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Kris Hopkins and Kevan Jones

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)]

I support the Bill, and I would like to compliment Members on the tone of the debate and on some of the exceptional speeches I have heard from both sides of the argument.

On the morning of 2 May 1997, I was watching TV amid the immense excitement of new Labour’s landslide. Of course, as a Conservative I was watching the news that my party had just been humiliated in one of its biggest defeats in electoral history. How had we gone from being a party with four electoral successes to become a party on the edge of political extinction? The reality is that some people were tired of us, and many hated us. There were also issues such as sleaze. My observation was that, despite the many great things we had done in government, society had moved on and we had not.

Thirteen years later, on the steps of No. 10, the Prime Minister recognised and generously acknowledged that in Labour’s time, the country had become a more open one. He was right to recognise that. The journey my party has gone on since 1997 involved rethinking some of the issues we faced—for example, the rhetoric of race and engaging with the black and ethnic minority community, single parenthood, disability, a commitment to higher education for all people and not just a minority, embracing the NHS, leadership on international development and, yes, a monumental confidence that we have shown in supporting the lesbian and gay community. All those testify to a modern Conservative party, now reflecting the values of modern Britain in ways that we could not have contemplated, let alone sympathised with, in 1997. I say that not because I am pursuing votes and constructing an argument around that, but because I want to see my party reflect the values of this country.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

If a majority of Conservative Members go through the No Lobby tonight or abstain, does that not show that what we have is a PR veneer rather than real change in the Conservative party?

[Kris Hopkins]

I do not agree with that. What it demonstrates is that a modern Conservative Prime Minister has put forward a really progressive idea, which we can support. Today we are on the road to equality—an idea promoted by a Conservative Prime Minister—fiercely debated by my party with significant challenge from within, and I would not expect anything different.

I have been contacted by about 120 people, the vast majority of whom asked me to oppose the Bill. I would like to thank most of them for giving me considered and thoughtful views on both sides of the argument. I have laid out my own case here today, but it is important to bear in mind that people of religious faith do not want Churches to be forced to marry people of the same sex. That point has arisen time and again in the debate, but I am confident that we have put the necessary safeguards in place. I want to make it clear to my constituents who have that fear that the Government have taken the issue seriously and are embarking on the right route.

We have debated this matter at great length, but all the polling evidence suggests that the vast majority of people out there in the real world support the principles behind the Bill—certainly the vast majority of people to whom I have spoken support them, as do the vast majority of young people. I am talking about people under 50.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Debate between Kris Hopkins and Kevan Jones

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Kris Hopkins]

I do not think that it will. I think that the 900,000 or 1 million new jobs created by the Government represent the solution to the problem. We need to face up to the drama in the welfare state. The hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) says that this is not about a dependency culture, but I can take her to places where people are trapped in a way of life that gives them no incentive to go and look for jobs. That is the tragedy of the situation.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

I understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying about the dependency culture—he thinks that if he repeats it enough, people will start to believe him—but what would he say to two people whom I met in a local jobcentre last week? They were made unemployed by AEI Cables in Birtley a year ago. They have the work ethic. They are aged 51 and 52, they had worked for the company since they were 16, and they have applied for literally hundreds of jobs without success. Are those people part of the dependency culture?

[Kris Hopkins]

No, obviously not, because they are going out there to seek a job. That is the key thing. I thank the hon. Gentleman for the extra time.

We have put a benefit cap at £26,000, and that is net. The vast majority of my constituents would be delighted to take home or have access to that amount of money. Far from doing something outrageous by increasing the amount of money that people are going to get by 1% in this climate, it is an admirable move by those on the Front Bench to facilitate that, bearing in mind the crisis that the previous Government left.

We have made some choices about who we are going to protect and who we will not. There is a debate about disability, but I am pleased that we are protecting pensioners. It was a commitment by this Government to protect pensioners and we have continued with that. I am very concerned that the unemployed, those who are dependent, those who are uneducated and have no skills, those with limited opportunities to offer young people, are the families that are growing in my constituency. That is a tragedy for the future of towns such as mine. We must break that cycle. It cannot be right that it pays to live on the state.

The resentment and anger are real in people who are working hard. They have seen generations continue to claim benefit. Some of those are trapped, but some have no desire to go and work. People are making life choices based on the fact that they can get money from the Government. As was pointed out earlier, that is taxpayers’ money. That cannot be right. When families see no increase in their income after their hard work and they see people on benefits receiving twice the increase, as has been shown statistically, that promotes resentment in our communities. It is not just about strivers or skivers. Failure to address the issue promotes racism and tension in communities, because somebody sees or perceives that somebody else is getting something that they are not getting. After all their efforts they do not see the benefit of working so hard.