Oral Answers to Questions
Lady Hermon Excerpts(6 years, 4 months ago)
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Chloe Smith
I very much sympathise with this issue and share the frustration encapsulated in the letter to which the hon. Gentleman refers. However, this is not the time to be unpicking the devolution settlement on this issue. It is, rightly, an issue for a future Executive to return to and look at. We hope that the Executive can be brought back to do that and deal with many other important issues.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I would welcome assurances from the Minister that she and the Secretary of State have already met the leaders of the four main Churches in Northern Ireland to discuss the sensitive issue of the recognition of same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland. That assurance would be very helpful.
Chloe Smith
I can certainly confirm that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Department have regular contact with Church leaders. As I said, it is an important issue, but it really is an issue for a future devolved Government to look at.
UK Plans for Leaving the EU
Lady Hermon Excerpts(6 years, 7 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
First of all, obviously, I still expect that we will be able to negotiate a good deal, and that is what we are working for. It is important that we take businesses along with us and that we discuss and hear from businesses their reaction to the various issues being raised in the negotiations. Indeed, I and a number of other Cabinet Ministers were present at the business advisory council that was held in No. 10 Downing Street today. However, my hon. Friend’s question seemed to be based on the premise that, if we did not get a formal notification of sufficient progress in October, that would mean that we would not be likely to get a deal. I do not believe that that is the case. I believe, as has been indicated by other hon. Friends, that we are seeing more of a movement on the European Union side to recognise the importance of discussing the trade negotiations and to consider the necessity of an implementation period.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
Let me begin by commending the Prime Minister warmly for keeping going at her conference speech. It could not have been easy.
The Prime Minister—and, I am sure, other Members of the House—will be well aware that the Good Friday agreement of 1998 was voted on by thousands and thousands of people in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and secured a majority in both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. I am very pleased today that the Prime Minister has said that we owe it to the people of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to get Brexit right. Will she therefore please look seriously at introducing a Government amendment to the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill to guarantee on the face of the legislation that no regulations made under the Bill will repeal or amend the Good Friday agreement? That would be very helpful to people in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
The Prime Minister
Both this Government and the Irish Government—and indeed, increasingly in the discussions we have been having on the issues relating to Northern Ireland and the Republic, the European Union—have confirmed an absolute commitment to the Good Friday agreement. We are very clear that we stand by the Good Friday agreement, which, as the hon. Lady said, was hard negotiated and welcomed by a majority. We are absolutely committed to ensuring that nothing that we do in the Brexit negotiations in any way jeopardises the implementation of the Good Friday agreement.
European Council
Lady Hermon Excerpts(7 years, 2 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
I absolutely assure my hon. Friend that we will continue to put NATO at the forefront of those efforts. I am pleased that the UK is able to make a specific contribution this year to NATO’s efforts in relation to the eastern border of the European Union and NATO countries with Russia. For example, we will soon see UK troops going to Estonia as a very visible sign of our commitment.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
Fears about the consequences of Brexit were undoubtedly exploited by Sinn Féin in the recent Northern Ireland Assembly election. Sinn Féin increased their first-preference votes by somewhere in the region of 58,000, which means they are just one seat behind the Democratic Unionist party in the new Assembly, as elected. I wonder—as, I am sure, does the rest of the country, and particularly those in Northern Ireland—what additional steps, including visiting Northern Ireland, the Prime Minister is going to take to turn back the tide of support for Sinn Féin.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady is obviously correct in the facts she sets out about the voting in the election. The focus we must all have now and in the coming couple of weeks, because there is limited time set aside in the legislation, should be on bringing the parties together to form a devolved Administration. I believe it is absolutely essential that we do everything we can to ensure that a devolved Administration are maintained in Northern Ireland.
On the impact of Brexit, we have been very clear about the relationship we want to ensure with regard to the border with the Republic of Ireland, and we continue to work with the Republic of Ireland and others to deliver on that. Nevertheless, over the next couple of weeks the focus of us all must be on bringing the parties together to ensure a devolved Administration are formed in Northern Ireland.
United Kingdom Statistics Authority
Lady Hermon Excerpts(7 years, 2 months ago)
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Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)
I rise as a member of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, which scrutinised the appointment, to give a warm welcome to Sir David’s appointment. I pay tribute to his predecessor, Sir Andrew Dilnot, for his work, which did well in holding the Government to account and ensuring that statistics were used reasonably when debating the NHS.
It is a difficult time for politics for us all. We have come through a referendum campaign, during which various statements and assertions were made on both sides of the debate. At the forefront of the minds of members of the Committee when scrutinising the appointment was the need to ensure that we had a new chair who would scrutinise the use of statistics in future referendum campaigns. It does credit to nobody in the House to see statistics potentially misused in referendum debates that captivated the mind and votes of the overwhelming majority of the public. The shadow Minister quite rightly outlined some of the concerns about NHS spending that were raised by those on one side of the referendum debate, while other perhaps somewhat exaggerated claims were made by those on the other side of the debate. No matter which side of the debate we have sympathy with, we can recognise that the referendum campaign did no credit to the use of statistics. It is important to have an independent chair—I am sure Sir David will fulfil that role—and I hope that that will restore some public faith in the independent challenge offered to the misuse of statistics in the future.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I, too, congratulate Sir David. However, I want to pick up the point that the hon. Gentleman has quite rightly made about the importance of looking closely at statistics during elections and referendums. May I add to that list by encouraging the authority, under its new chair, to look at the statistics that may well be claimed by Sinn Féin for a border poll in Northern Ireland? This is not just about referendums and elections, but about such a border poll. It is very important indeed that propaganda perpetuated by Sinn Féin and the popularity of Sinn Féin do not lead—unexpectedly, and without any good reason—to a border poll in Northern Ireland. The authority should look at that.
Dr Poulter
The hon. Lady is absolutely right in her comment. She may be reassured by the fact that, when scrutinising the appointment, members of the Committee asked Sir David directly about his approach to the issues involved in his scrutiny of another possible referendum in Scotland and of debates in all devolved parts of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland and Wales. He assured our Committee that he will be keeping a keen eye on these issues. We are very aware of the recent concerns that may have manifested themselves as a result of the election results at the weekend. I am sure that Sir David will be mindful of that as he comes into post. When we have what are sometimes emotive debates, it is vital that the public can have faith that there is an independent authority that will hold politicians to account. It is important that that happens in Northern Ireland and, indeed, elsewhere.
I am sure that another pressing issue on Sir David’s mind will be ensuring that claims that may be made in a future Scottish referendum are properly scrutinised. I remember that there were a lot of discussions about North sea oil and its potential revenues during the last referendum debate. I am sure that he will be mindful of that when taking up his position. When there is a referendum, or an important debate of that nature, the public must have faith that politicians are in no way willingly misleading the public, although they may exaggerate statistics. We would not wish to do that in this House, and we should not do it in debates outside this place.
The Committee was satisfied that in Sir David we have a new chair who meets those criteria, will be a robust defender of the correct use of statistics and will hold Executives—and, indeed, political parties—in all parts of the United Kingdom to account when they make claims in referendum campaigns.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lady Hermon Excerpts(7 years, 3 months ago)
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James Brokenshire
There are important issues that need to be examined and addressed in relation to the criminal justice system. Bail is one part of that, as are sentencing and the time it takes for cases to proceed. We will continue to work with the Executive to see that progress can be made.
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Lady can scarcely be heard by anybody, let alone the Minister.
Lady Hermon
Thank you; that is very kind of you, Mr Speaker. I am very grateful indeed.
In dealing with the security situation in Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State will recognise how important it is that the Northern Ireland Office sends a very clear message that the rule of law prevails in Northern Ireland, so will he kindly take this opportunity to put on the record his full confidence in the independence and integrity of the Lord Chief Justice, Sir Declan Morgan, and indeed the Director of Public Prosecutions?
James Brokenshire
I am very happy to do so in very clear and unequivocal terms: it is essential that we uphold the rule of law without fear or favour, and I absolutely support the work of the police and all those who are responsible for taking that forward and seeing that those who are committing the acts that we are discussing this morning are held to account and brought to justice.
Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill [Lords]
Lady Hermon Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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Mr Wilson
What the hon. Gentleman says is quite extraordinary. We had this debate in Committee. It was quite clear, from the reaction to the concerns about the Badger Trust, that the hon. Gentleman and those on the Opposition Front Bench agreed that party political campaigning was actually a good thing. Even today that has been repeated, with regard to the Badger Trust. The hon. Member for Redcar disagrees with the Charity Commission finding that it was party political.
In Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Robert Jenrick) gave us a very strong warning about new clause 3, which sums it up well and bears repeating. He asked us to look across the Atlantic to America, where charities can engage in party politics and support political candidates, and where wealthy philanthropists can set up organisations with blurred aims. He said we should be careful what we wish for. I agree with that sentiment entirely. The new clause would risk setting us off down a very slippery slope of involving charities in party politics. For that reason alone, I strongly encourage the House to oppose it.
On fundraising, I am sure all hon. Members will be aware of the poor fundraising practices uncovered over the summer. They present a real risk to levels of public trust and confidence in charities. I asked Sir Stuart Etherington to review how fundraising had been regulated in the past and to suggest improvements. The Government accepted his recommendations for a new, stronger self-regulatory body, backed up by the statutory powers of the Charity Commission. This new fundraising regulator is currently being set up by Lord Grade of Yarmouth and his chief executive Stephen Dunmore. The new regulator will establish the fundraising preference service, which will give people who feel overwhelmed by the sheer volume of requests they receive a simple way to opt in. I am grateful to the working party, led by George Kidd and supported by the NCVO, which has already started to draft proposals on how the FPS will work in practice.
As I made clear in Committee, this place owes it to the generous British public to ensure that they are not coerced or bullied into giving their hard-earned money to charity. It is because of this that we brought forward Government amendments in Committee that would enable the Government to step in and compel charities to register with the self-regulator should they fail to do so voluntarily and in significant numbers. Should this still prove insignificant, the Government would have the power to mandate the Charity Commission with the regulation of fundraising.
I truly hope that I and my successors are not put in a position to have to resort to those reserve powers, and that charities seize this last chance to make an independent self-regulatory system work. If self-regulation does fail, however, we need to make sure that we are equipped to step in quickly with effective statutory regulation. In that respect, I warmly welcome Opposition Members’ support for the Government’s approach to addressing fundraising regulation. I give particular thanks to the hon. Member for Redcar for her supportive comments on Second Reading and in Committee.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) for his work as Chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee. His Committee has played an important role in investigating the poor fundraising practices we saw last summer. I welcome the Committee’s report, which was published yesterday, and I will give it careful consideration before responding fully in due course. As it highlights, the public rightly expect the highest standards from our charities. Like the Committee, I believe that charities should get a last chance to put their own house in order to restore public trust and confidence.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
The Minister will know that people in Northern Ireland give generously to charities. Regrettably, the Bill has been designated as exclusively English. If constituents of mine are oppressed by requests from charities, can they legitimately complain to the Charity Commission and the new regulatory body?
Lady Hermon
The Minister does not seem to grasp the point. There are national charities across the UK, of which Northern Ireland is a part. Thousands of people voted in the referendum on the Good Friday agreement—the Belfast agreement—to remain part of the UK. The donors and supporters of national charities, such as the Salvation Army, the Royal National Lifeboat Institution and others, are also in Northern Ireland, so the first port of call should be here, not Northern Ireland.
Mr Wilson
The hon. Lady makes her case strongly, and it is absolutely right that she should do so here in the UK Parliament. I hope that she will also make her case strongly to the devolved Administration, which many people in Northern Ireland wanted, and got as a result of the actions of subsequent Governments.
New clause 4 would fundamentally change the division of responsibilities between the new fundraising regulator and the Charity Commission. If we were to propose that the commission hold public hearings on matters of charitable fundraising, this would effectively amount to a form of statutory regulation. The commission does not believe that it currently has the resources effectively to exercise the power to hold hearings on fundraising, as suggested in the new clause. It can, in theory, already hold hearings in relation to statutory inquiries under section 46 of the Charities Act 2011, but it does not do so because it would not be an effective means of undertaking its casework. Unlike with other powers in the Bill, the commission does not ask for this ability.
I understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex may have intended in new clause 4 to offer to witnesses giving evidence to the Charity Commission in public hearings on charity fundraising the protection of not having their evidence used against them in other proceedings, rather than legal professional privilege. Legal professional privilege protects the lawyer-client relationship and is not what I think he is looking to achieve. However, the proposed hearings would be proceedings undertaken by the commission, not proceedings in Parliament, so parliamentary privilege would not be appropriate, either. The reserve power to regulate fundraising in section 64A of the Charities Act 1992 is a power to make secondary legislation that is necessary or desirable or in connection with regulating charity fundraising. If the commission were to assume statutory responsibility for the regulation of fundraising and this included holding public hearings, we would need to consider, at that point, what protection for witnesses would fall within the scope of the power.
My hon. Friend’s new clause 5 would prematurely task the commission with becoming the primary regulator for fundraising activities. The Government have provided for this already, but through the stronger reserve powers we introduced in Committee. We would also risk undermining public confidence, if self-regulation were to fail while under the oversight of the commission, particularly if the solution to that failure was statutory regulation by the commission. We would also need to do a lot more detailed thinking about whether, and if so how, witnesses could or should be protected by an equivalent to parliamentary privilege, which is what I think he might have been seeking with the new clause.
However, I completely agree with the finding of the Select Committee on Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs that
“It would be a sad and inexcusable failure of charities to govern their own behaviour, should statutory regulation became necessary.”
Perhaps I can reassure hon. Members that, under the reserve powers in the Bill, it would be possible for the Charity Commission to be given statutory responsibility for the regulation of fundraising, but to deliver that through a third party such as the fundraising regulator. New section 64C(2) of the Charities Act 1992, as introduced by clause 14, already specifically enables that.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Natascha Engel)
I remind hon. Members that although all Members may speak in the debate, only Members representing constituencies in England and Wales may vote on the consent motion.
Lady Hermon
On a point of order, Ms Engel. I make this point of order with a heavy heart, but I feel duty-bound to do so. When the certification process was introduced and debated before the Christmas recess, the indication was that when the Mace was moved and we sat in the Legislative Grand Committee, a Minister would be called upon to move the consent motion and then a debate would commence. It was disappointing last night that there was no effort by the Minister to open a debate about why the consent motion was being moved. As I find this happening again today, I seek clarification from the Chair as to whether it is appropriate now to consistently adopt a routine of a Minister moving a motion without further debate.
The Second Deputy Chairman
The hon. Lady is aware that it is up to the Minister to move the motion formally or to speak to it, but she is perfectly entitled to speak in the debate now, if she so wishes.
Lady Hermon
Thank you very much, Ms Engel. I am grateful for that clarification, even though my vote, if we were to vote, would not count in the same way as that of every other Member of this House would count. This is a serious constitutional issue, particularly for those from Northern Ireland.
After years of horrendous violence in Northern Ireland, we had the Good Friday agreement, otherwise known as the Belfast agreement, and we voted in our thousands that Northern Ireland would be part of the United Kingdom unless and until we voted ourselves out of the United Kingdom. That is not going to happen any time soon. My constituents elected me at the general election to represent them fully in this House.
In response to an intervention earlier, the Minister confirmed that there is a Charity Commission for Northern Ireland. However, the Charity Commission for Northern Ireland has only devolved responsibilities. The point that I was making to the Minister was about national charities across the United Kingdom, such as the National Trust. When constituents of mine and those right across Northern Ireland—where we have the Giant’s Causeway, which is owned by the National Trust, and Castle Ward and various other wonderful properties across Northern Ireland—join the National Trust or renew their membership online, their membership fees go straight to the headquarters of the National Trust. The fact that we have a devolved Charity Commission for Northern Ireland does not give it national reach.
The point I am making to the Minister is that we have national charities in Northern Ireland—I have mentioned the Salvation Army and the RNLI, for example—that have their headquarters in England, so will he kindly and generously do my constituents, and indeed all the people of Northern Ireland, the courtesy of explaining why this Bill is designated as exclusively English-only? That is what I would like to hear him explain.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
I can reassure the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) that the Procedure Committee, of which I am a member, is looking at what is happening with this procedure and will report back to the House. It shall be noted that these are matters of great interest, but recently when I have sat in on consent motions for these sorts of debates under English votes for English laws, I have noted that nothing is said at all. It is incumbent on us to draw up procedures that actually make a difference and have a purpose. The problem with EVEL is that, because the Conservative Government have an overall majority, no Bill will be changed one iota in this Parliament as a result of EVEL. Because all the other parties are opposed to EVEL, if the Conservative party does not have a majority after the next general election, the procedure could be abolished in an afternoon. The Committee will be looking at these procedures very carefully and—of course, I cannot speak for its other members—will want to be reassured that the procedures under EVEL are actually changing something.
Matthew Hancock
I will respond briefly to the comments of the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). She asked why the Bill has been designated as an England and Wales Bill, and that is because it relates in its entirety to England and Wales. On her point about a charity that covers the whole United Kingdom—it hardly behoves me to reiterate, passionately and fulsomely, the Government’s support for the United Kingdom, which we share—regulation of the activities of charities in Northern Ireland is devolved. I cannot speak to, and I do not have responsibility for, the activities of the Charity Commission for Northern Ireland, which regulates the activities of charities in Northern Ireland. Likewise, this section of the debate ensures that there is consent for this legislation among the MPs whose constituencies will be covered by it. The reason I did not speak at the start of this procedure is that, given that the Bill is so clearly restricted to activities that take place in England and Wales, it is plain and obvious that it is therefore an English and Welsh Bill for these purposes.
Lady Hermon
I am grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene. I want to make the point—I am sorry to repeat myself—that we have legislation going through the House today that will give increased powers to the Charity Commission based in England. However, were the Charity Commission based in England to take action against a national charity of which my constituents are members and supporters and to which they are contributors and donors, my constituents would be directly affected by its actions in relation to that particular charity. Am not I therefore entitled, as of right, to represent the views of my constituents in this House?
Matthew Hancock
Of course the hon. Lady is entitled to represent the views of her constituents, which is precisely what she has been doing in the stages of the Bill, but it is also right that English and Welsh MPs can have their say on the Bill. I point out that were her constituents involved in a similar way in a charity that was headquartered in France, Germany, America or anywhere else in the world, that charity would of course be regulated by its home regulator in the same way as a charity based in England. It is a consequence of the devolution of charities law, and the actions of support for and regulation of charities, to Northern Ireland that this is an issue not for Northern Ireland but for England and Wales, and therefore, under the EVEL procedures, this is self-evidently an England and Wales Bill.
Lady Hermon
I do not want this to become a one-way conversation, but I have to say that I do not think the people of Northern Ireland would be flattered to be compared to France. I have listened studiously to Government Front Benchers reassuring the House that theirs is a one nation Government. I invite the Minister to come to Northern Ireland and meet those who have contributed to charities in Northern Ireland. He can explain to them face to face why, given that the Government claim to be a one nation Government, Northern Ireland MPs in some cases do not count—apart from Sinn Fein Members, of course.
Matthew Hancock
It is self-evident that if the issues in the Bill relate to England and Wales, as they do, the Bill should, in the view of the Government, be certified as an England and Wales Bill. It is a consequence of devolution that those representing England and Wales should be able to have their vote on a Bill that relates only to England and Wales.
To respond to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), I should say that it is inconceivable that anybody would unwind these provisions in any future Parliament, given that they protect English and Welsh voters from having legislation imposed on them without the will of the majority of Members with constituencies in England and Wales. The reaction of those who could then be overruled by others who had their own devolved Assemblies and Parliaments would be quite savage.
Matthew Hancock
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
Charities are at the very heart of our society and have held that important place for many generations. The vast majority of charities are run well by selfless people whose motivation is to help others. By way of example, I was struck by the incredible way that charities and the local community mobilised after the devastating floods that took place in Cumbria in December. Cumbria Community Foundation set up a flood relief fund to help all those affected. The fund has already raised well over £4 million, alongside Government contributions. It has involved hundreds of local charities, voluntary organisations, businesses and individuals raising funds to support the appeal. National Citizen Service graduates in Carlisle have helped renovate a local youth club damaged by the floods. We owe a great debt to such charities and the volunteers who freely give their time to make a difference. We celebrate the work of this example just as we celebrate our hospices, universities, housing associations, community fundraisers, global research institutes, and the many, many other charities, from the most local to those with worldwide reach. We salute their effort, their time and their generosity, and the joy that they give in the service of others.
This Bill will help to protect that vast majority of charities from the tiny minority that would seek to abuse the benefits of charitable status and risk undermining the public’s trust on which charities as a whole rely.
Lady Hermon
I am genuinely grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene on him again. In the light of the fact that he has emphasised on a number of occasions that responsibility for charities is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland, and given the changes introduced by this legislation, will he kindly confirm that, if he has not already done so, he will make it a top priority to get on the telephone to his counterpart in the Northern Ireland Assembly to say, “Right, this is what we’ve done at Westminster—perhaps you should think of making these changes in Northern Ireland.”
Matthew Hancock
Absolutely—we will certainly make contact with the Northern Ireland Assembly to ensure that we can have exactly that communication, not least because the Bill will support charities that want to engage in social investment, which many can benefit from. It provides a new way for charities to maximise the impact of their investments.
The Bill will also better support regulation of practices for fundraising, which have been found wanting. We all know of and support charities that, week in, week out, do brilliant work in our constituencies. I want to ensure that the regulatory framework for charities continues to support charities like these while supporting the work of the Charity Commission in robustly bearing down on the few bad apples. This Bill will do just that. I will touch on some of the things that I hope, through its passage, we will be able to deliver.
Extending trustee disqualification will better protect charities from individuals who present a known risk. Like many Members during the passage of the Bill, I struggle to conceive how it could ever have been considered appropriate for a convicted terrorist or money launderer, for example, to be involved in running a charity. These changes are long overdue. However, I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) that, in extending disqualification, we must take extra care not to undermine the vital work done by charities involved in the rehabilitation of offenders. I am confident that the waiver process will allow those who have changed their ways a route back into charity trusteeship or senior management. I hope that the commitments given by my hon. Friend the Minister for Civil Society will provide a degree of further reassurance.
When the National Audit Office reviewed the Charity Commission and reported on it in 2013, it recommended that the Government look at gaps and weaknesses in the regulator’s powers. We have done so, and the Bill addresses those gaps and weaknesses. We should however be clear that the Bill provides only one element of the change that is needed.
The Charity Commission was established in 1853 to take on a number of the court’s functions in relation to charities. At the time, misconduct in charities was a source of public concern, and that led to the founding of the commission. If we fast-forward 150 years, we can see that the Charity Commission’s role is in many ways much the same—focused on ensuring public confidence in charities.
We all want strong, effective, independent regulation of charities. The Charity Commission is making great strides towards that under the strong, clear-eyed and sure-footed leadership of its chairman, William Shawcross, and chief executive, Paula Sussex. They are driving the transformation of the commission into a modern, effective and efficient regulator. However, such a change can happen only with the full commitment and support of the charity commission’s staff, and I pay tribute to them for their hard work, which too often goes unrecognised.
The extensions to the commission’s powers in the Bill have been carefully thought through. Following public consultation, pre-legislative scrutiny and the Bill’s passage through the other House and this place, we have a much-improved Bill. As a result, the commission will be equipped with the tools that it needs to tackle serious misconduct and mismanagement in charities, and to do so effectively and efficiently. I am also reassured by the range of safeguards that accompany the powers, some of which have resulted from consultation and scrutiny.
It is important to stress that most charities will not experience any direct impact from the new powers in the Bill, because most charities are, quite rightly, never on the receiving end of the Charity Commission’s powers. However, ensuring that the regulator can act quickly and effectively against serious abuse will support public trust and confidence in all charities.
On public trust and confidence, I now turn to fundraising. It is clear to me that poor fundraising practices had the potential to undermine public trust and confidence in charities. Sadly, there is already evidence of reduced trust. We acted quickly by commissioning the Etherington review last summer. I am very grateful to Sir Stuart and the cross-party panel of peers who supported him. Sir Stuart recognised the serious risk to public trust in the charity sector generally, and the need for change in the fundraising practices of some charities. His review marks a watershed moment.
I welcome the support from Labour Members for our measures on fundraising. This is something on which we all agree there is a need for change. It really is the last chance for self-regulation. Under the leadership of Lord Grade of Yarmouth, it will have every chance. I very much hope that all across the charity sector are willing and able to embrace that. I do not want to have to resort to statutory regulation, but we will if we must. We now have the reserve powers to do so in case they are needed.
I welcome the important contribution on fundraising published yesterday by the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), who has followed the proceedings on the Bill closely. We will need to consider carefully the report and recommendations before responding fully, but we completely agree with the central finding that it would be a sad and inexcusable failure of charities to govern their own behaviour should statutory regulation become necessary.
On the new social investment power, the Bill will help charities that want to get involved in this exciting new area of finance for charities. We are committed to growing social investment as a sustainable source of finance for charities and other social ventures. The UK is a world leader in this respect, and the social investment power will help charities to play a bigger role.
I am pleased that there is a review provision in the Bill. After three years, it will enable Parliament to look back at the provisions and their impact. I hope that that will be a happy occasion.
The Bill and the improvements it will bring would not have been possible without a huge amount of hard work by many people. I particularly pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Minister for Civil Society and my noble Friend Lord Bridges of Headley for their sterling work in piloting the Bill through. Charity law can be fiendishly complex; they have not only grasped such complexities, but clearly and succinctly explained them to Members of both Houses. They have met a wide range of stakeholders to discuss all aspects of the Bill, and they have introduced amendments to improve it. I also thank my officials from the Cabinet Office and the Charity Commission who have supported the Bill’s passage.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) and the hon. Member for Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton) for their chairmanship of the Public Bill Committee. I thank the hon. Member for Redcar (Anna Turley), the noble Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Opposition Members for their broad support for the Bill. It would be fair to say that we have not agreed on everything, although the rows have tended to be about things that are not in the Bill. We have the shared aim of protecting charities and ensuring that the Charity Commission has the right powers independently and effectively to regulate charities. The debates have generally been constructive and positive and are, in my view, an example of the House at its best.
Particular recognition should go to the Joint Committee on the Draft Protection of Charities Bill, which undertook pre-legislative scrutiny under the wise chairmanship of my noble and learned Friend Lord Hope of Craighead. Its pre-legislative scrutiny resulted in a number of improvements before the Bill was introduced. I thank the Law Commission for drawing up the new social investment power. Its expertise was important in getting the detail right. I give enormous thanks to all others who have contributed in any way.
Finally, I thank my noble Friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, whose prescient 2012 review of the Charities Act 2006 identified many of the weaknesses in fundraising self-regulation that are being addressed both through the Bill and the implementation of the Etherington review more broadly. That work four years ago showed the path that we have followed and that I hope the House will approve today.
The Bill has had broad support through the long process of consultation and scrutiny. We have listened and acted when we have heard ideas to strengthen it and add additional safeguards. The Bill will support and protect the strong, independent charity sector that is so important to our way of life in Britain, and I commend it to the House.
ISIL in Syria
Lady Hermon Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer). Although I do not agree with the position he put forward, I think he put it very clearly and passionately, for which I thank him. I thank the armed forces for the work they do.
I share the horror and revulsion at recent atrocities in Paris, Beirut, Syria itself and elsewhere. yet I have still to hear convincing evidence to suggest that UK bombing of ISIS targets in Syria is likely to increase our security in Britain or help to bring about a lasting peace in the region. On the contrary, the evidence appears to suggest that it would make matters worse. I want to highlight that in the few minutes available.
If we are interested in evidence, a good place to start might be to examine the effect of the US-led bombing campaign so far, explore whether it has been successful and see whether our contribution would make a real difference. From what I have seen, the sustained bombings to date have not done much to push Daesh into retreat. According to the latest figures from the US Department of Defence, US-led forces have flown some 57,000 sorties, while completing 8,300 airstrikes over a 17-month period, but they have relatively little to show for it. While the air war has so far killed an estimated 20,000 ISIS supporters, the number of fighters ISIS can still deploy—between 20,000 and 30,000—remains unchanged.
Moreover, there are very real dangers that airstrikes on Syria have become increasingly western-driven. All four of the middle eastern states previously involved—Jordan, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates—have now withdrawn. That risks feeding the Daesh propaganda, in which it presents itself as the true guardian of Islam under attack from the crusader west. Although utterly pernicious and wrong, precisely that message is being reinforced by western bombings, with every indication that the attacks are an incredibly effective recruiting sergeant. According to US intelligence sources, last September, 15,000 recruits were reported to have joined Daesh from 80 countries; a year later, the figure has risen to 30,000 recruits from 100 countries. I have had no reassurance that western military action would not simply drive more recruitment.
I have not heard any evidence to contradict the conclusion of the Foreign Affairs Committee’s report about the military challenges. The report very clearly stated that its witnesses did not consider that extending air strikes into Syria
“would have anything other than a marginal effect.”
Indeed, as other Members have pointed out, far from the issue being a lack of allied aircraft above Syria, the real problem is actually a shortage of viable targets on the ground. The dangers are compounded by ISIS’s deeply cruel use of human shields, which makes targeting more difficult and will add to the civilian death toll.
There is much talk of focusing on Raqqa, but according to recent exiles, many in the ISIS leadership have gone to ground in places such as Mosul. They suggest that to get rid of ISIS in a city like Mosul, which has 1.5 million people and perhaps 150,000 ISIS terrorists, we would literally have to flatten the entire city.
Those of us who are sceptical about the use of airstrikes are often accused of saying that we do not want anything to happen and that we want inaction. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Government can and should be playing a role in brokering peace and stability in the region. The Prime Minister could be redoubling his commendable efforts to find a diplomatic solution. The civil war is inextricably linked to the rise of ISIS in Syria, as the Foreign Affairs Committee report emphasised repeatedly. ISIS flourishes where chaos reigns, so renewed efforts are needed to end the Syrian civil war.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
Is the hon. Lady inviting the House to ignore completely UN Security Council resolution 2249?
Caroline Lucas
That resolution calls on us to use “all means”. I want to make sure that we are using all of the means short of military action. [Interruption.] I do not believe that we are doing that and I do not believe that we should use military action unless there is evidence that it would make things better. There is laughter on the Government Benches at the idea that we might not want to take military action if there is no evidence that it will work.
One reason I do not want to use military action is that there are no ground forces. We have heard again and again that air strikes will not work without ground forces, yet when we ask where the ground forces will come from, it turns out that they are mythical—they are “bogus battalions”, as the Chair of the Defence Committee said.
Let us not suggest that those of us who do not think that there is an instant military answer are not just as committed to seeing an end to ISIS as those on the other side of the House who seem to think that there is a military answer. All of us are committed to getting rid of ISIS. Some of us are more committed than others to looking at the full range of measures in front of us and to looking at the evidence that suggests that bombing, to date, has not been successful.
I was talking about the other measures that I would like to see taken forward. I talked about the diplomatic efforts, building on the Vienna peace talks. The diplomatic effort must extend to Iraq, where the Abadi Government must be encouraged to reach out to the neglected Sunni minority, especially in those parts of the country where ISIS is recruiting.
Why are we not applying sanctions to Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states that have turned a blind eye and allowed the flow of finance to ISIS and, potentially, other terrorist groups? Why are we still selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, when they are then used in a vicious and destabilising war in Yemen that has killed thousands and made millions homeless, and that is creating yet more chaos in which al-Qaeda can thrive? Why are we not putting pressure on Turkey over the oil sales and the transit of fighters across its border?
Why are we not doing more on refugees? We should have more refugees here in the UK—of course we should—but we should also put more pressure on our allies to put more resources into the refugee camps in the region. I appreciate that the Prime Minister has done a lot on that. This country has been good on that issue. Let us make sure that our allies do the same, because those refugee camps are becoming absolutely desperate. It is cold, there is more poverty and desperation, and we can be sure that ISIS will be recruiting in those refugee camps too.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lady Hermon Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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Dr Murrison
We are all working towards complete normality in Northern Ireland. The assessment at the moment is that we are not there yet, and for security reasons we have to ensure that donors have anonymity. My hon. Friend must accept that, but it is an issue that needs to be kept under constant review. At some point—sooner rather than later, I hope—we will be able to normalise that aspect of election law across the United Kingdom.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
With the general election only five months away, can the Minister confirm that the Northern Ireland Office has already sought an assessment from the Chief Constable of the risk of violence to donors to political parties in Northern Ireland?
Dr Murrison
The provisions in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act should protect the identity of donors, but if they wish to make themselves known through the Electoral Commission, they can do so. In the run-up to the general election, the security services in Northern Ireland are well aware of increased threats to individuals that may obtain, including those whom the hon. Lady mentions.
Recall of MPs Bill
Lady Hermon Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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Mark Durkan
The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) has already touched on new clauses 4 and 5, which stand in my name, and amendment (a) to new clause 4, which has not been selected, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie).
I should clarify that the purpose of new clause 4 is to answer a question that I and other hon. Members posed when we discussed the Bill in Committee and on Second Reading. There is no job description for MPs, so if we are creating the principle of recall—a principle I fully endorse: I believe recall should be possible at the initiative of constituents and the electorate—it is important to have a yardstick. If we are affirming that MPs have and owe that degree of accountability to their constituents, there should be a clear basis on which constituents can rightfully wrest the exercise of that right. We had all sorts of circular arguments about whether having an open petition system could lead to all sorts of specious and spurious grounds that were motivated by partisan or other interests. I believe it was important to create a basis on which MPs could subscribe to the possibility of recall by acknowledging from day one when they take their seats here that they are subject to that degree of accountability and owe service to their constituents. That is why I support the concept of MPs taking a new pledge.
It is rather strange that we are pursuing a Bill that is creating the idea that a strong rule of accountability is to be translated into a recall, yet whenever MPs come here to assume their seats, all they do is issue words in the form of an oath or an affirmation about allegiance to the Crown, which many of them do not actually believe. I am not sure that that does anything for the credibility or reputation of politics when the first thing that politicians do in taking their seats is to recite words that they might not believe. Those who believe in those words should absolutely be able to recite them, but it is important that, regardless of whether Members believe in the affirmation or the oath, we should utter a pledge in respect of our parliamentary standards.
Given that hon. Members proposed amendments in Committee that made reference to the MPs’ code of conduct and given the importance of expenses and other relevant issues that could motivate a recall, we need to recognise the significance of the seven standards of public life, which appeared in the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, for this Bill. Hence the pledge I propose in new clause 4 has MPs, on taking their seats, affirming that they will abide by the MPs’ code of conduct and honour the seven standards of public life as they are now. Those standards could, of course, be revised and extended in future. The new clause would leave the phrasing of the pledge open.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I apologise for not being in my place at the start of the debate, but I am very interested in this Bill. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that there are five absentee Sinn Fein Members who are obviously not going to turn up and take any pledge in this House or assume their seat any time soon, if ever. What would be the sanction for such Sinn Fein MPs who refused to sign any pledge?
Mark Durkan
I take the hon. Lady’s point, but if she looks at the new clause, she will see that an MP subscribing to the pledge may do so
“(a) in writing; or (b) in person at the same time as taking the Oath required by the Parliamentary Oaths Act 1866.”
So anybody elected to this House on the basis of serving their constituents in the way that Sinn Fein Members pledge they will serve their constituents could not take their seats or sign on to take their seats. Sinn Fein Members could fulfil the requirement by signing the pledge “in writing”. That is entirely feasible, so my new clause would not create any barrier or impediment for Sinn Fein Members—or, indeed, for any other Member elected on the basis that they will not take up their seats in this House, but will use their seats in whichever way they won their mandate for.
Lady Hermon
I am most grateful to the hon. Member for allowing me to intervene a second time. I understood that there were the alternatives of saying the words of the pledge when Members take up their seats here or of making the pledge in writing. My question, however, was what the sanction is for MPs, including Sinn Fein Members, who do not take the pledge either in writing or orally.
Mark Durkan
I have not gone as far as that; it could mean a further sanction that if people do not take the pledge, they will be deemed not to have taken up their seats. That could be one way of doing it. We could say that expenses and other things would be paid only in circumstances where the MP has signed the pledge.
The standards required by the pledge would include due observance of all rules and principles involving such matters as expenses which relate to the code of conduct or to the “standards of public life”. All the requirements are parliamentary standards. It is possible that a Member’s status in respect of allowances and facilities would kick in only when the pledge was signed, but that is a detail.
Lady Hermon
Will the hon. Gentleman add to the criticisms that he has kindly and very well articulated the point that new clause 2 and amendment 15 would leave independent Members and Members who belong to small political parties extremely vulnerable because they could not afford to fend off multiple applications made under those provisions?
Thomas Docherty
The hon. Lady is entirely right. There is significant concern, not only in Northern Ireland but in other parts of the United Kingdom, that repeated, harassing private prosecutions could be brought by well-funded groups.
By the admission of all concerned, more work still needs to be done on these two processes. It is less than satisfactory to be sending to the other place something that, by any standard, is not in a fit condition. To be clear, this House is being asked to delegate to the House of Lords responsibility for producing workable recall mechanisms. I regret to have to inform the hon. Member for Cambridge that I cannot, in good conscience, encourage colleagues to vote for new clause 2 and amendment 15 and their associated amendments, because it would be better if they were withdrawn and a fresh look at the whole issue was taken by the other place. May I make him an offer? If he withdraws his new clause and amendment, Labour peers will work with him and his Lib Dem colleagues to draft workable, robust and watertight proposals. We are clear that we are not giving up on the principle behind the new clause and amendment, and we urge him to take the same approach.
I want briefly to respond to the new clause and associated amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle and others. We fully understand the rationale behind his new clause. The requirement that a Member of Parliament must take the oath before being allowed to represent the people who have elected them has placed not just his party—the Social Democratic and Labour party—but many others in an invidious position. The SDLP, in particular, has wrestled with this problem for many years, and I suspect that we are not going to solve it in one afternoon. He has raised a broader, quite interesting idea about whether the oath or pledge we undertake to fulfil is to our country as a whole or just to the constituents who may or may not have voted for us. I therefore suggest that the both the narrow question of whether the oath should be supplemented, or even replaced, by a pledge and the wider question of its purpose should be considered more fully.
The House will already be aware that the Labour party has proposed a constitutional convention that would meet after the general election to consider how we are governed, including the future shape, size and accountability of the second Chamber, and to examine codifying our constitution and reforming our political system. I urge my hon. Friend to seize that opportunity to make his case, as I am sure he will receive a sympathetic hearing. In that spirit, I urge him not to press his new clause to a vote but to ensure that his party plays a full part in the convention next year.
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I think the PCCs are rather an irrelevance to what we are discussing and I want to remain in order. I believe it is important to be pedantic about upholding the rule of law, and therefore I will oppose that amendment from the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife. I will support his other ones, but I must reject the proposal that we bring the courts—
Lady Hermon
May I put a proposition to the hon. Gentleman which is a possibility? On 17 July Lady Justice Hallett’s report was published and a statement was made by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. In that report, it was identified that 14 terrorists of the republican movement had been granted the royal prerogative of mercy. They are unnamed, but it is believed they might include senior politicians representing Sinn Fein. If the names of those 14 recipients of the RPM whom we know to be republican terrorists were to be revealed and included a Member of this House, would the hon. Gentleman think differently?
Jacob Rees-Mogg
I always give way to the hon. Lady and she always then serves up the most impossible and difficult interventions. I think she is the Michael Holding of interventions, with these very fast balls being bowled at me. My stumps have disappeared behind me, but what I would say is that I would apply exactly the same rules to those people as to anybody else.
Tom Brake
I intend to make a satisfyingly and commendably brief contribution: these amendments are not controversial.
Amendment 9 would remove from the Bill the wording of the petition signing sheet and the ability to amend it by regulations. This would be replaced by a power enabling the wording to be prescribed or amended by regulations following consultation with the Electoral Commission. The wording of the petition signing sheet currently appears in the Bill and can be amended through regulations. This aligns with the power that exists in the Representation of the People Act 1983 that allows for the ballot paper for UK parliamentary elections to be amended through regulations, although the form of the ballot paper itself appears in the Act.
Amendment 10 seeks to amend the wording to appear on the petition signing sheet by making it easier for the elector to understand that the MP will not lose his or her seat and a by-election will not be held if fewer than 10% of the registered electors in the constituency sign the petition. I remind hon. Members that this wording has been developed in conjunction with the Electoral Commission to ensure that it is balanced and fits with the commission’s guidance on referendum questions.
I can see the intention behind the amendments. The first amendment addresses concerns expressed in Committee that if any user testing takes place—I can confirm that we do intend to user-test the wording of the signing sheet—it might be clearer to remove the wording from the Bill and accept that the final form of words will appear in regulations. It is important that the wording is approved by Parliament, whether on the Floor of the House or in a delegated powers Committee. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) that proper consultation should be part of the process of developing the wording. That is why we have worked on it with the Electoral Commission and are now looking to test it further to ensure that it is right. Either the power in clause 9 or that proposed in amendment 9 would allow the wording to be adapted or set should changes flow from the user testing. Amendment 10 demonstrates that there is no single way to word the signing sheet, and that is why we are committed to undertaking user testing. The views of the public will provide us with a clearer picture on where improvements can be made not only to the signing sheet but to the notice of petition.
As for the wording of the petition signing sheet, there is a specific purpose behind the use of the words,
“as a result of the petition.”
If the petition is successful, it is right that a by-election will be held. However, if the petition is unsuccessful, it is not necessarily the case that a by-election will not be held. A by-election could be held because the MP decided to resign his or her seat, or otherwise lost his or her seat. The use of the words,
“as a result of the petition”,
seeks to ensure that the public understand that the effect of an unsuccessful petition is not necessarily to prevent a by-election. The question for the House is whether the wording should be retained in the Bill or be replaced with a power to prescribe the wording in regulations. If the wording is to be retained, the question then is whether we accept the proposed amendment to clarify that a by-election will not be held or leave this to user testing.
Lady Hermon
A small but very important point is that those signing a petition should know of the percentage that is required and the consequences that the Minister has outlined. Will he shed some light on the sequence of the wording in subsection (4)? Why are the two paragraphs in that order and not in the reverse order, which would be much more helpful to those signing the petition?
Recall of MPs Bill
Lady Hermon Excerpts(9 years, 6 months ago)
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Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene. He will of course know that the Bill as drafted extends to Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, but his amendment extends only to England and Wales.
Lady Hermon
Oh, so it extends throughout the whole of the United Kingdom? It would be helpful if the hon. Gentleman could confirm that and give some examples.
Lady Hermon
In relation to the possibility of the Government looking at a third trigger relating to misconduct in public office and the question whether that applies equally to Northern Ireland and Scotland and to England and Wales, may I say ever so gently to the Minister that issues such as parading, stopping parading, flying flags and not flying flags can be criminal offences in Northern Ireland, and public representatives may become involved in them, so drafting this provision carefully in relation to Northern Ireland will take some time?
Greg Clark
We will attend to the points that the hon. Lady makes. They apply perhaps with even more force to the possibility of a recall in Northern Ireland being triggered initially by 5% of the electorate, for any reason. In relation to the arrangements in Northern Ireland, we have taken care not to cause repeated debate and contention when that would be against the interests of democracy in the Province. Nevertheless, I will reflect on her words.
Geraint Davies
Precisely. If one’s defence is, “I’m not a murderer,” all that people hear is the word “murderer”. Clearly, enough charges might be brought against a person who is targeted for whatever reason, perhaps by a political party or financial interest that knows someone else can be put in if they are got out of the way. The example has been given of the American gun lobby displacing someone who wanted to improve people’s protection against guns and replacing them with someone who was clearly in the gun lobby’s pocket. Once a few heads had rolled in various constituencies over time, other MPs would think, “I don’t want to end up like Harry or Harriet”, or whoever it happens to be, and we would get into all sorts of difficulties.
We should guard against the rush to populism in the amendments of the hon. Member for Richmond Park. We should uphold judgment and principle, rather than quick popularity. I find the amendments very worrying, which is why I wanted to speak on this issue.
Lady Hermon
The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) is not present, but I am sure that she will not mind if I speak for her on this one occasion. She is a member of the Alliance party. She does not sit on Belfast city council, but her party colleagues on the council decided to fly the Union flag on the 17 flag-flying days, rather than 365 days a year. As a consequence, she received death threats. What concerns me about the proposal of the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) is how vulnerable the hon. Lady would become to those who want to make vexatious claims about something over which she had no control.
Geraint Davies
I am grateful for that example. It is difficult to imagine how much harassment there would be if the amendment was agreed to. Harassment can happen through a range of mechanisms and can be sophisticated. People would protest using electronic and social media, as well as conventional media, to threaten people with recall. Ultimately, we are all human and we have families. Members will say, “I haven’t done anything wrong, but this is affecting my children in school.”
We need the space to discuss things with clarity and, hopefully, rationality. Obviously we express differences, and we all understand that that can provoke passion. However, to have a mechanism by which we could all be targeted or intimidated, that could distort people’s judgments, and that could affect whether people were here or not would be fundamentally in conflict with the ideals to which we aspire in this House.
Lady Hermon
I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for allowing me to intervene. May I draw her attention to a particular and important scenario in Northern Ireland? Although Northern Ireland was safe enough to host the G8 summit at Lough Erne and the World Police and Fire Games, it is not safe enough for us to know what amount is donated to political parties, and we still have anonymity of political donations to political parties. I would therefore have no idea who had sponsored a recall motion to get rid of me in North Down, and similarly, none of my colleagues from other parties in Northern Ireland would know that because of the anonymity. Big money can buy a recall in Northern Ireland. Will the hon. Lady address that issue?
Anne Marie Morris
Clearly, I have no knowledge of Northern Ireland and exactly how it operates, but the hon. Lady makes a fair point and there are issues about funding. However, that applies in every political situation, and I do not think that her points invalidate the suggestion in new clause 2.
It seems to me that along with my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park we have put forward a form of accountability, and with the provision of a reason we have provided some transparency. Under the Government’s arrangements there is no explanation or reason.