Jamal Khashoggi

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in the other place yesterday evening by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, with your permission, I will make a Statement on the death of Jamal Khashoggi. From the moment that he was reported missing after entering the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on 2 October, extremely disturbing reports emerged about his fate. On Friday, we received confirmation that Mr Khashoggi had indeed suffered a violent death, and the Saudi Foreign Minister has since described it as murder. The Government condemn his killing in the strongest possible terms. Today, the thoughts and prayers of the whole House are with his fiancée, his family and his friends, who were left to worry for more than two weeks, only to have their worst fears confirmed. After his disappearance, the Government made it clear that Saudi Arabia must co-operate with Turkey and conduct a full and credible investigation. Anyone found responsible for any offence must be held fully accountable.

On top of our concerns about the appalling brutality involved lie two other points. First, Mr Khashoggi’s horrific treatment was inflicted by people who work for a Government with whom we have close relations; and secondly, as well as being a critic of the Saudi Government, he was a journalist. At the time of his death, Mr Khashoggi wrote for the Washington Post and had contributed to the Guardian. Because in this country we believe in freedom of expression and a free media, the protection of journalists who are simply doing their job is of paramount concern. On 9 October, I conveyed this message to the Saudi ambassador in person and to the Saudi Foreign Minister by telephone. I instructed the British ambassador in Riyadh to emphasise our strength of feeling to the Saudi Government at every level. Last week, my right honourable friend the International Trade Secretary cancelled his attendance at a forthcoming conference in Riyadh. On 17 October, I met Fred Ryan, the chief executive of the Washington Post, and I spoke again to the Saudi Foreign Minister this weekend.

On Friday, the Saudi Government released the preliminary findings of their investigation. They later announced the arrest of 18 people and the sacking of two senior officials, which is an important start to the process of accountability. But I will say frankly to this House that the claim that Mr Khashoggi died in a fight does not amount to a credible explanation. There remains an urgent need to establish exactly what happened on 2 October and thereafter.

The incident happened on Turkish soil, so it is right that the investigation is being led by the Government of Turkey. They now need to establish who authorised the dispatch of 15 officials from Saudi Arabia to Turkey; when the Government in Riyadh first learned of Mr Khashoggi’s death; why there was a delay in allowing Turkish investigators to enter the consulate; and why it took until 19 October to disclose that Mr Khashoggi had died 17 days earlier. This matters because only after a full investigation will it be possible to apportion responsibility and ensure that any crimes are punished following proper process.

Last week, I spoke to both my French and German counterparts, and the House will have noticed the strong statement jointly released by Britain, France and Germany. The actions Britain and our allies take will depend on two things: first, the credibility of the final explanation given by Saudi Arabia; and secondly, our confidence that such an appalling episode cannot—indeed, will not—be repeated. We will, of course, wait for the final outcome of the investigation before making any decisions.

Honourable Members know that we have an important strategic partnership with Saudi Arabia, involving defence and security co-operation, which has saved lives on the streets of Britain. We also have a trading partnership that supports thousands of jobs. While we have been thoughtful and considered in our response, I have also been clear that, if the appalling stories we are reading turn out to be true, they are fundamentally incompatible with our values, and we will act accordingly. Indeed, such reports are also incompatible with Saudi Arabia’s own stated goal of progress and renewal. That is why the extent to which Saudi Arabia is able to convince us that it remains committed to that progress will ultimately determine the response of the United Kingdom and its allies, and we will continue to convey our strength of feeling on this issue to every level of the Saudi leadership.

In his final column, published in the Washington Post after his death, Jamal Khashoggi lamented the lack of freedom of expression in the Arab world. Let us make sure that the lessons learned and actions taken following his death at least progress and honour his life’s work. I commend this Statement to the House”.

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[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I join in the condemnation of what has happened and the way it has been covered up by the Saudis for the first two weeks. I congratulate the Government on the withdrawal of Liam Fox’s participation in the forthcoming investment conference—although it seemed unfortunate that it was not announced earlier. We waited until a number of other Governments and companies had announced their withdrawal before finally we withdrew too.

We on these Benches recognise the importance of our relationship with Saudi Arabia and with the other Gulf states, although I recall that one of the many tensions inside the coalition was that many of us on the Liberal Democrat side felt that some of our Conservative colleagues were too close, personally and politically, to the Gulf autocracies and the Saudi royal family, and too hostile to Iran. We need as a Government to maintain a balance in Middle East politics which does not entirely follow the hard Saudi line and cut the Iranian Government out, complicated although that is.

I join the Lord, Lord Collins, in remarking that indirect involvement in the Yemen war by supporting Saudi armed forces and supplying weapons for delivery in Yemen has to some extent compromised our position in international relations. We talk about the importance of our economic relationship, but that relationship is overwhelmingly dependent on arms sales. The long-term question hanging over that is: who is dependent on whom when you have that sort of one-sided relationship?

I welcome and support the Government’s announcement of their joint position with the French and German Governments. Clearly, British influence is maximised when we work with others. I see from the Financial Times this morning that the German Government have announced a suspension of arms sales. Have we discussed parallel action with them, and have the British Government yet considered whether they should join the Germans in suspending arms sales until this is sorted out?

There is a slightly surreal element in hearing day by day, as we did yesterday in the Prime Minister’s Statement, the Government reporting with strong approval that we have achieved a joint agreement with our French and German allies on this, that or the other—the Prime Minister’s Statement did that in two places—while at the same time the Foreign Secretary describes the European Union as like the Soviet Union, from which we must escape, and a number of Conservative Ministers, and more Conservative MPs, regard the European Union as fundamentally hostile to Britain.

How one has a foreign policy with any degree of coherence when such contradictions are deeply embedded is a little beyond my understanding. The incoherence of British policy on the Middle East is only part of the incoherence of British foreign policy as a whole. The alternative—following the US lead, rather than co-operating with our European partners—seems to us on these Benches even more doubtful under President Trump, in particular given some of the close links between the Trump family and the Saudi Arabian royal family.

This was an attack on a journalist, as the Minister said. There are many other attacks on journalists in the world and, sadly, there have been three murderous attacks on journalists that I can think of in three different European Union member countries in the past two years. I hope that the Government, in their commitment to a free media and a free press, will attempt to maintain our standards on issues arising from other attacks on journalists around the world. I remind the Minister—I am sure that he is aware—that in a campaign speech in the west of the United States last week, President Trump praised a Congressman who had violently assaulted a British Guardian journalist at one of his meetings. Encouragement of violence against journalists by the American President is extremely dangerous to democracy. Are the British Government considering making that point at the highest possible level in the US Administration?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank both noble Lords for their statements. I appreciate that Members of this House, and of the other place, stand together in solidarity to ensure that the tragic victim of this murder ultimately sees true justice, and in condolence and support for his family and friends. Noble Lords will appreciate that recent events are moving very quickly. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to the statement made earlier today by President Erdogan of Turkey, in which he revealed some further information about their investigation. The full report has yet to be released, but I assure the noble Lord and your Lordships’ House that we fully support the Turkish investigation into this case. In the representations made by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, our ambassador to Riyadh and others, we have consistently reminded the Saudi administration—at the highest level—of the need for their full co-operation with the investigation by the Turkish authorities. We continue to follow that very closely.

Having heard and read the statement this morning, I share the deep concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Collins—and, I am sure, felt by every Member of your Lordships’ House—about the detail of what is unravelling. There has to be credibility in the Saudi statement. Looking back at the accounts over recent weeks, what started as a denial translated into an accidental attack when a fight ensued. The Saudi Foreign Minister has now admitted that it was a “murder”—that is his word. It is appropriate that we see the Turkish investigation present its full results.

In response to the points made about the UK’s position, I reiterate the point made by the Foreign Secretary. We are looking carefully at the full outcomes and there will be consequences once the report is released. The noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Wallace, rightly raised the issue of arms sales. In my capacity as Human Rights Minister, I have spoken from the Dispatch Box about the situation in Yemen. I am taking a close look at arms sales generally and drawing the attention of colleagues in the Foreign Office to the issue. The United Kingdom Government will look at all the response options currently available. Members in the other place raised the issue of the Magnitsky clauses in the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill. Noble Lords will know why we cannot enact these mechanisms until we leave the European Union. Both noble Lords mentioned sanctions policy and working with our European partners. I assure them that this is under discussion.

The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, raised the issue of working with EU partners. I reiterate the point made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. Practical progress is being made with our EU partners on our leaving the EU, but it is important to underline the importance of that relationship. Notwithstanding our differences in certain parts of the negotiation, we have stood firm when it matters. The noble Lord—and all noble Lords—will recall the time of the Iran nuclear deal, when Chancellor Merkel, Prime Minister May and President Macron issued a joint statement. It was entirely appropriate on the grave matter of the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, and we have again stood firm with Germany and France and issued a joint statement. That underlines the strength of our relationship with our European Union partners, notwithstanding our withdrawal from the EU.

The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, also rightly raised the issue of strategic partnership. We share much with Saudi Arabia: trade, defence and security, and intelligence. Much of that has also helped us to maintain a level of safety and security on our streets. However, the UK takes great pride in human rights, particularly the defence of journalists and their right to report freely and to criticise Governments and individuals within Governments. It is right that we stand up for those rights wherever they may be usurped. I assure noble Lords that that remains a key priority in my portfolio as Minister for Human Rights.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

Will my noble friend press the Saudi Government to produce the body for independent examination? They must know where it is, and once it has been inspected, we will all have a much clearer view as to how he died.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend raises an important point. I talked earlier about the situation of Jamal Khashoggi’s family, who for several weeks did not know what his fate was. I assure my noble friend that, with Turkey, we continue to press on this important issue. Indeed, President Erdogan also made this point during his statement earlier today. It is important now to ensure that the full facts of the murder can be brought to the fore. But equally, for the family’s sake more than anyone else’s, we appeal to whoever knows so that good common sense will prevail in this terrible affair and at least some closure can be brought to the family by the body being presented, so that Jamal Khashoggi can at least be given an appropriate funeral.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, why do we not follow the German Government and suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As the noble Lord will know, the stated position from Germany is not a new one: it is a restatement by Chancellor Merkel of the statement she made earlier. Angela Merkel has been clear in reiterating that she will keep to that approach. As I said earlier in response to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Collins, we await the full outcome of the Turkish investigation and once we have all the facts in front of us, we will act accordingly.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister said that it is important that a situation like this does not arise again. Does he recall that in quite a long BBC documentary, it was alleged that there were several other cases—not quite as dreadful as this—of people who were critical of the Saudi Arabian Government being kidnapped, taken back to Saudi Arabia and disappearing? Secondly, is the point the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, made not a good one? We talk about our close relationship, but as he said, who is dependent on whom depends on which way you look at it. Is there not a strong case that we ought to diversify our arms sales so that they are not so dependent—40%—on one country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

To take my noble friend’s second point first, I believe that the bilateral trade between our Governments stands at £9 billion. However, as he says, on the overall position of the UK and our trading relationships, notwithstanding the nature of the case we are discussing, it is important that we have a diversified view.

On his point about this never happening again, he is right to raise the tragic consequences of this. We repeatedly return to the issue of journalists and press freedom in your Lordships’ House, in the context not just of Saudi Arabia but of other countries as well. The important point in this case is what further steps we can take in this respect. The international condemnation which has followed this crime is clear for all to see. On the other steps we are taking that I can share with my noble friend, I mentioned earlier my capacity as Human Rights Minister, and we are reviewing the exact statements we will make and the questions we will raise in the universal periodic review of Saudi Arabia, which is due on 5 November in Geneva. I assure my noble friend that as a priority, we will raise with the Saudis in international fora the issue of press freedom and the freedom of journalists to criticise a country and an Administration. As to whether we can ensure that this will never happen again, that would be a tall claim for anyone to make. The tragic nature of these issues means that we must be strong in our condemnation, and when the full facts are presented, we must act accordingly.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that we have some of the strictest rules about selling arms to any nations that apply to any countries in the world. Germany’s virtue signalling is all very good, but it would be selling almost no arms there anyway, and when one looks at some of the other sales they have made to other places, I would not get too excited about the virtue signalling.

This is a very difficult area. We have to be wary once we have made a decision to sell arms, having gone through all the hoops, about starting to tell people how they should use them. However, it is very important that there is transparency about exactly what we are doing in terms of support and training for Saudi Arabia. We have been rather secretive about this—for example, the Paras teaching them how to use mortars and so on. Does the Minister agree that we should be very open about exactly what we provide and then we can look at this in the round and make some sensible decisions in due course, rather than knee-jerk ones, about exactly how we go?

There is no doubt that this was a horrible crime. I have no doubt at all that there was advice from the very highest levels in Saudi Arabia. Indeed, it has form on this, as has been mentioned before. But we need to be really careful not to make knee-jerk reactions and to be transparent on what we actually provide.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord speaks from wide experience in this respect and I agree with him on principle. I fully support his position but what Germany exports and what is does is really a matter for the German Chancellor and Government. I have looked at the structure and support of arms sales. This was put in place by the very respected Robin Cook when he was Foreign Secretary. There are quite strict procedures in place to ensure that these weapons comply with international humanitarian law.

Notwithstanding that, the noble Lord will also be aware that our export licensing system also builds in flexibility to allow us to respond quickly to changing circumstances. Since 2015 we have suspended more than 331 licences. This is not a case of once agreed, never suspended. I agree with the noble Lord that we must be very careful to ensure that our response is considered, clear and unequivocal. We should act only, I stress again, once the full facts have been presented. As I said, we await the full facts from the Turkish investigation.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, following up the noble Lord’s Statement, we brought in legislation on arms sales, which this Government profess to comply with, saying that arms could not be sold to be used for external aggression or internal repression. External aggression is what the Saudis are doing in Yemen on a massive scale. We need to reset our relationship with Saudi Arabia, particularly in light of this barbaric murder. By the way, President Erdoğan championing journalistic freedom is something else.

Will the Minister consider the case for resetting the relationship with Saudi Arabia without turning our backs on an important strategic relationship in intelligence and defence terms? I understand that, having been a Middle East Minister. We should adopt a much more even-handed attitude in that region, especially between Riyadh and Tehran. We treat Iran as a pariah state but we treat the Saudis as brothers in arms. Maybe the Crown Prince took that and the signals from President Trump as giving him a blank cheque, as it were, to operate with impunity in a lawless way, as has clearly happened in Istanbul.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned how Saudi Arabia has been acting and this crime in particular. The reaction to it and the changing position from the Saudi Government reflect the strength of opinion and representations made not just by the United Kingdom but others. It has resulted in the admittance that a crime—indeed, a murder—took place in the consulate in Istanbul. As I said, we await the full facts of what will be determined from the investigation by Turkey, which we fully support.

Picking up a thread from the earlier questions from the noble Lord, Lord West, about training and support, it is right that we provide support in terms of training to militaries across the world, as we do to the Saudi military. There is an advantage in doing this because we share elsewhere the values and the strong sense of training deployed by our troops, which stress the importance of international humanitarian law.

As for resetting relationships, the noble Lord acknowledged the importance of the strategic partnership, but lessons will be learned from this incident, which resulted in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. As I said, once all the facts have been presented, the United Kingdom Government will consider them very carefully and act accordingly.

[Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the Thomson Reuters supervisory board. Does the Minister agree that many journalists around the world operate constantly in extremely difficult and dangerous circumstances? Will he confirm that, not just in multilateral organisations but in our regular contacts with the Governments of countries that do not treat journalists as they should, he and his colleagues will emphasise the need for journalists to be treated properly and safely?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Let me assure the noble Lord and the whole of your Lordships’ House that we do—and will continue to do—exactly that. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, mentioned Turkey. It is because of the equity of our relationship with Turkey and the strength of our strategic partnership—which I am sure noble Lords will have followed in the broader context of defending human rights—that we have seen some dividend from our representations through the channels we have, including the release, albeit on bail, of several members of Amnesty International in particular. We continue to raise these issues, including in private. But there is a time, and you have to strike that balance. Many noble Lords will know exactly the point I am making: you have to strike that balance between private diplomacy, on which the United Kingdom prides itself, and public accountability. The case of Jamal Khashoggi is a time for public accountability.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, it is difficult to think of a more difficult foreign policy issue that the Government must now face. I cannot think of anything as serious from all my time as either a Member of Parliament or a Member of your Lordships’ House. Difficult circumstances and challenges often give rise to opportunities, however. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, put his finger on it when he said that this is an opportunity to reset our relationship, not just with Saudi Arabia but with other countries in the Middle East to which we have for many years adopted approximately the same attitudes and positions.

I shall make two other, perhaps unrelated, points. What could be more sinister than the fact that among the 15 who came to the consulate was a forensic pathologist? What possible purpose was he meant to serve by being part of the 15? I think we could all make a pretty good guess.

On the other hand, the Minister rightly referred to the intelligence relationship. When he was Prime Minister, David Cameron publicly—surprisingly but, in the circumstances, he thought necessarily—acknowledged that information provided by the Saudi Arabian Government directly prevented an enormously difficult and potentially very damaging terrorist outrage in this country. It is the balancing of these two issues that gives rise to the Government’s difficulty. However, I take the view that as soon as all the necessary information is available a judgment must be made—but I would in no way support the notion that we should conduct a running commentary or offer a step-by-step approach. We need to deal with this matter as a whole, once a proper judgment has been reached.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with much, if not all, that the noble Lord has raised. It is important to look at the strength of our relationship. I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hain. As I mentioned in my closing remarks in repeating the Statement, this is also an opportunity for defining. We must take seriously our responsibilities as an international player on the global stage when our friends—and Saudi Arabia is a friend—commit actions by which we are all appalled, as we have seen in the case of Jamal Khashoggi. Families have suffered the tragic consequences of the actions of these individuals. It is important that, as a friend, we consider the full facts as they emerge and once they have been given. It is also appropriate, because of the influence that we have with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, that we seek to influence that relationship in a positive way.

This situation is a step back, I fear, from the visit of the Crown Prince, which heralded Vision 2030 and new beginnings. As the Prime Minister’s Special Envoy on Freedom of Religion or Belief, I was heartened by the fact that the Crown Prince visited the Coptic Cathedral on his way to London and had a meeting at Lambeth Palace. These were the beginnings of positive signs. It is tragic that we see this situation emerging, but it is important that we take stock. The noble Lord also raised the importance of our influence in countries such as Egypt, Kuwait, Oman and elsewhere in the Middle East. The United Kingdom not only has a voice, it has a strong influencing voice, and we should seek to leverage that, particularly in the context of the Gulf Cooperation Council.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, in the Statement the Government emphasised heavily that what happened was totally irreconcilable with British values and principles. Does the Minister not agree that there is a real credibility problem—again—for us in this context? Must we not be very careful that throughout all the deliberations that may now ensue we do not begin to water down and rationalise away the need sometimes for firm and decisive action? This deed, as we all agree, was horrific— but all over the world, as we have heard, brave journalists are standing up for freedom, democracy, enlightenment and truth. When this is jeopardised it is a fundamental challenge to everything we stand for in this society. Surely this has happened in this situation and we must be determined to take whatever action is necessary, even at some cost to ourselves.

On the arms point specifically, is it not madness to see the arms industry as part of our general export drive? We should export arms only to close allies or those who really do demonstrate—on controversial and important issues—a total commitment to our values; otherwise, we are playing with fire in the end-use situation, to which reference has already been made, which has shown over and again that we are not in control of the situation.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord makes powerful points. On the general point about arms exports, it is right that when we look at our relationships—we have all been clear that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an ally; it has been an important ally in terms of security co-operation in the Middle East and it continues to be so—we set the criteria when it comes to arms sales and ensure that they are adhered to, and that issues of international humanitarian law are upheld. I will be frank: we have seen appalling situations and occasions during the war in Yemen, which have resulted in the loss of many innocent lives. I am appalled when I see buses of young children being blown up as a consequence of that war. It is important that we strengthen our voice in ensuring that the values we share are also shared by our allies, and we will continue to make that case. But the structures that have been set up for those arms sales are an important check and balance in ensuring that those important principles are sustained.

When it comes to acting accordingly, I assure noble Lords that our Government—and I have been in close contact with my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary on this issue—are not taking this in any way lightly. The Statement detailed the number of engagements we have had directly—and continue to have—with Saudi counterparts. It is appropriate. I am sure that when they reflect on this noble Lords will agree that it is important that we have all the facts in front of us so that, once the investigation has been completed, we can consider what appropriate action can be taken.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, when the full facts are known, would it not be appropriate that we act not just as the United Kingdom working with our friend and ally—as the Minister called Saudi Arabia—but with France and Germany, as we have done previously in negotiations with Iran? We work better as a threesome than individually, and that would enable us to be more influential than if we were simply to act alone.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I will answer the noble Baroness’s question in two parts. Yes, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a friend and ally. It is because of the strength of the relationship we have that we can make the representations that we do. That bilateral relationship is important and will continue to be so, whatever decisions we choose to make. The noble Baroness’s second point was on working together with European allies. As I have already demonstrated, notwithstanding the stance taken by the United States on Iran, the Foreign Secretary issued his first statement on this very issue in line with, and after consulting, France and Germany.

Jammu and Kashmir: Human Rights Abuses

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hussain]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to assist the implementation of the recommendations of the report published on 14 June by the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights concerning human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir to hold an independent international inquiry to investigate abuses.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we raise our concerns about the human rights situation in India-administered Kashmir and Pakistan-administered Kashmir with the Governments both in New Delhi and in Islamabad. We note the concerns raised in the report by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, and we encourage all states to uphold human rights in line with their international obligations and to co-operate with the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.

[Lord Hussain (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. According to this United Nations human rights report on Kashmir, serious human rights violations took place between July 2016 and April 2018. Some 145 civilians have allegedly been killed, and the report denounces the lack of prosecutions of Indian forces in Jammu and Kashmir due to the 1990 law known as the Armed Forces (Jammu and Kashmir) Special Powers Act which gives them virtual impunity. Can the Minister tell us what Her Majesty’s Government can do to persuade the Indian Government to withdraw such draconian laws from Kashmir so that those responsible for these violations can be brought to justice, at least under Indian law?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Lord that we continue to raise the importance of the issues in Kashmir with the Indian Government. In one of my visits towards the end of last year, I raised the issue of Kashmir and the need for Pakistan and India to find a resolution to this long-standing issue. Equally, with reference to the report and the importance of some of its findings, we encourage all states, including India and Pakistan, to respond positively to the request by the UN—in this case, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights—to a right to visit.

[Lord Paul (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, both India and Pakistan are very active members of the United Nations. Will the Government say what purpose it will serve to discuss this point here?

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Her Majesty’s Government, as the noble Lord has rightly said, are a friend to both Governments—India and Pakistan. Our position remains that it is primarily for India and Pakistan to come together. They are countries tied together by history, culture and families. Indeed, my parents herald from India and my wife’s parents herald from Pakistan. Communities and families can come together. Perhaps I am living proof of that.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, we have a very proud record of defending human rights, particularly in countries such as Pakistan and India. What is of concern to me when we object to abuses of human rights, particularly the use of the death penalty, is that we now have a Government who are saying that it is okay to extradite people to a country where they might end up suffering capital punishment. Does the Minister agree with that assessment and the impact it might have when we try to defend other people from capital punishment?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I am greatly humbled and honoured to be the Minister for Human Rights. Indeed, prior to coming to your Lordships’ House, I launched our human rights report, which again reflects its importance, our priorities and the key role that the United Kingdom plays in standing up for the broad spectrum of human rights across the world. The noble Lord raised the death penalty; I assure him and the House that the Government’s position remains the same.

[Lord Ahmed (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, will the Minister agree that it is the exact job of this House to discuss human rights in all places around the world? We are a permanent member of the Security Council. We have responsibilities to defend and to protect human rights around the world. Further to what the noble Lord, Lord Hussain, said, in 2009 the International People’s Tribunal on Human Rights reported that nearly 3,000 unmarked graves were found and 8,000 people are missing because of forced disappearances. Surely there is a responsibility for us to discuss that. While we should encourage India and Pakistan to resolve the issue, we should also condemn those violations of human rights.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

We are, of course, members of the United Nations and, as the noble Lord said, we are a permanent member of the Security Council. There are various resolutions on the broad issue of human rights. Most recently, as penholders, we have been leading the way on the Rohingya Muslims in Burma. On the specific issue of Kashmir, as we have said before—it has been a long-standing position of Governments on both sides—the Simla accords of 1972 act as the basis for bilateral discussions. I know the region of Kashmir. It was termed a paradise on earth. We hope that both countries can find noble cause to restore that label of paradise on earth.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB)]

My Lords, I return to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hussain. He drew attention to the draconian laws that protect people against prosecution for human rights abuse. As a member of the UN and the UN Security Council, is it not incumbent on us to condemn that sort of behaviour without fear or favour? Will the noble Lord agree with me and with the human rights activist Andrei Sakharov, who said that there can never be peace in the world unless we are even-handed in our condemnation of human rights abuse?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Let me assure the noble Lord that we encourage all states, including India and Pakistan, to uphold their international human rights obligations. Any allegations of human rights violations or abuses are concerning and must be investigated thoroughly, promptly and transparently. Let me once again reassure all noble Lords that we continue to raise the issue of Kashmir, including human rights issues, with the Governments of India and Pakistan. We stand resolute. We hope that a progressive way forward on this issue can be found for both countries and, as a friend to both, we will be supportive.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister note the accusation in the report that India has used disproportionate force and that no successful cases have been brought against its forces, including over the accusation of mass rape, and that Pakistan must also address human rights abuses on its side? Should not the UK play a more active role in taking forward what the commission suggests, which is a proper investigation of what has happened on both sides?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Let me assure the noble Baroness that we have of course noted the concerns about Kashmir expressed in the report by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and its recommendations, as the noble Baroness said, for the Governments of both India and Pakistan to consider. Therefore, we encourage both states to uphold human rights in line with their human rights obligations. In terms of any resolutions that come forward at the Human Rights Council, we will respond accordingly.

[Lord Tomlinson (Lab)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Tebbit]

My Lords, as a victim of terrorism myself, I am always a supporter of the victims, not the terrorists. Therefore, I hope that the newspaper reports of today that the Home Secretary has given the nod to the American authorities to prosecute some particularly vile terrorists and leave them to face the penalty laid down by the democratic country of the United States of America are correct.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am sure that I speak for every Member of your Lordships’ House in saying that we all stand on the side of victims of terrorism, wherever they are in the world. We stand on the principle of bringing justice to the victims of terror, wherever they may be. Equally, let me reiterate the UK Government’s position: that wherever justice is found, including for the victims of wars that have taken place in Syria and, before that, in Iraq, we stand resolute and committed to the principle of our international obligation to oppose the death penalty across the world.

British Overseas Territories: Same-Sex Marriage

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to enable citizens to enter into a same-sex marriage in British Overseas Territories.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon)]

My Lords, we are pleased that the British Antarctic Territory, the British Indian Ocean Territory, the Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, the Pitcairn Islands, St Helena, Ascension, Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands—I sound like a train announcer—have all taken steps to recognise and enable same-sex marriage. In the overseas territories where same-sex marriage is not currently recognised, we continue to engage constructively with both Governments and civil society to encourage and promote equality irrespective of gender or sexuality.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that detailed Answer. The United Kingdom Government imposed on overseas territories compliance with the international money laundering Act of 2018, even where there were not agreed international regulatory frameworks. The Government refuse to require all the overseas territories to respect the rights of LGBT citizens under the ECHR, with which they and we must be compliant. Why the double standard?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I do not think that there is a double standard. The noble Baroness may recall my vociferous defence, as the Minister for the Overseas Territories, of the autonomy of the overseas territories, believing that it was right that they should continue to take forward the issue of the registers, as they were doing quite progressively. However, the will of the other place was such that the will of Parliament was upheld by the Government. We would rather not have been in that position. On this issue, we continue to respect the autonomy. However, at the same time, I assure the noble Baroness that we work very progressively. We have seen in recent developments in places such as Bermuda how the courts domestically are reacting to the importance of progressing this issue.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I know that the Minister is both personally and politically committed to human rights and equality. Therefore, can he help me out? According to the most recent White Paper on the overseas territories, published in 2012, the UK Government assume an obligation in relation to good governance of the territories, which includes the obligation,

“to ensure … just treatment and … protection against abuses”,

for the peoples of the territories. Therefore, can the Minister confirm that the peoples of the territories include LGBTI people? Notwithstanding his intention on behalf of the Government to engage, what concrete measures are they considering to ensure that LGBTI people can embrace and enjoy equality and human rights in conformity with the United Kingdom’s international legal obligations?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, on the latter point, I assure the noble Lord that we work very constructively with our British Overseas Territories to ensure that they comply with international obligations. Indeed, the progress we have seen in Bermuda is reflective of the fact that equality for all citizens, including members of the LGBT community, is safeguarded and that they will continue to be able to play a full and active role in the future. On the specific issue of equal marriage, as I said, we are engaging constructively and it remains the British Government’s position. The noble Lord mentioned the 2012 paper. The basis of that was to encourage and continue to support the overseas territories to make progress on this important issue directly themselves.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Will my noble friend confirm—and I declare an interest as vice-chairman of the all-party Cayman group—that, particularly in the Caribbean, a number of the overseas territories have their own constitution to deal with domestic matters? As I understand it, in their view the subject raised by this Question is a domestic issue. They have elected Members of Parliament. Those Parliaments debate these issues, and surely it is for those Parliaments, which after all represent the people living in those islands, to decide what is appropriate or not.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as I have already said, of course we respect the rights of our British Overseas Territories to decide their own domestic issues, but it is also important that on issues of fairness the Government of the United Kingdom continue to hold constructive discussions, as we do in broader terms as well. I am minded to quote my right honourable friend the Prime Minister when she addressed this important issue in the context of the Commonwealth conference:

“As a family of nations we must respect one another’s cultures and traditions. But we must do so in a manner consistent with our common value of equality, a value that is clearly stated in the Commonwealth Charter ... Nobody should face persecution or discrimination because of who they are or who they love. And the UK stands ready to support any Commonwealth member wanting to reform outdated legislation that makes such discrimination possible”.


It is a constructive, progressive approach, and is the same approach that we adopt with our British Overseas Territories.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, in Her Majesty’s territories overseas we obviously have an obligation to uphold human rights, and it is a fundamental human right to be treated equally under the law. Of course, when the Minister read out that list, Bermuda would have been on it, because it did pass same-sex marriage laws. In fact, people were able to marry, and then we had that overturned. The Government cannot abrogate their responsibilities here, because it was agreed to by this Government and it should not have been. They should have upheld the rights of LGBT people. I declare an interest: I am actually half Bermudian, so when I go out there with my husband, will I be able to exercise the same rights? I hope the Minister will stand up for same-sex marriage in Bermuda.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord specifically mentioned Bermuda and he will know the history there. There was a referendum on both domestic partnerships and same-sex marriage, which the Bermudians did not accept in their vote. A decision was taken by the Supreme Court in advance which permitted same-sex marriage. That was overturned, as the noble Lord said, in the Parliament there to bring forward domestic partnership legislation which protects pension rights and other rights of same-sex couples. As to where we are with Bermuda, as the noble Lord will be aware, that legislation has been referred to the Supreme Court. The Government of Bermuda are appealing that decision, and, later this year, a determination will be made. We need to ensure, and it would be entirely appropriate—I am sure the noble Lord will respect this—that those local issues of justice are played out appropriately.

Freedom of Religion or Belief

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I draw attention to my interest as declared in the register.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, on 4 July, I was greatly honoured and humbled to be appointed by the Prime Minister as her special envoy on freedom of religion or belief. I assure noble Lords that I will continue to mobilise the diplomatic network to give due attention to this priority and to strengthen bilateral and international engagement as part of its diplomatic engagement with host Governments. I shall also work with parliamentary colleagues to ensure we leverage all expertise and experience, as well as strengthening collaboration with civil society and religious faith groups in pursuit of the common objective of protecting and strengthening freedom of religion or belief.

[Baroness Berridge]

I am sure your Lordships will wish to join me in congratulating my noble friend on his recent appointment, but might also share my concern that this adds to an existing seven areas of ministerial responsibility plus his being the Prime Minister’s special representative for preventing sexual violence in conflict. On 18 April, in your Lordships’ House, my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott accepted that having two part-time staff in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office working on freedom of religion or belief was resource-light. Will my noble friend please outline what additional resources he has been allocated to fulfil this additional mandate?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank my noble friend for her kind words. I look forward to working with noble Lords across the House, which I know has immense expertise and experience in this respect and to strengthening our work in this area. My noble friend is right to draw our attention to resources. I assure her that, in taking on this role, my discussions with the Prime Minister and others were important. It is an important priority and, in that regard, I believe that my role as Minister for Human Rights will add strength to it. Having a ministerial office in support of an envoy role will also strengthen access. As for specific support, noble Lords will be pleased to hear that this is a cross-government initiative. I am delighted to announce that we will be getting additional resource through colleagues from the Department for International Development, who will support me in this important work. This is in addition to the existing resource at the Foreign Office. We will also be strengthening our focus on this important priority and post.

I am also delighted that I will be working on the domestic agenda, because it is important we strengthen our work in that area. It is entirely apt, therefore, that I am joined by my noble friend Lord Bourne, who, as many know, is the Minister for Faith and Communities in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government.

[The Lord Bishop of Southwark]

My Lords, I too extend my congratulations and those of the Lords spiritual to the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, on this appointment. Does he agree that in several countries of the Middle East, where the Christian faith has existed since the time of the apostles—Iraq, Syria and Egypt among them—the scale of persecution renders the condition of the remaining Christian communities one of great humanitarian priority?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I absolutely agree with the right reverend Prelate. I assure him that one of the primary motivations behind my right honourable friend appointing me to the role is exactly that: the increasing concern about the plight of Christian minorities across north Africa and the Middle East. There are always, however, glimmers of hope in that grey cloud. Recently, I visited Tunisia and Algeria. As the right reverend Prelate may know, because of our diplomatic efforts and those of others, Algeria has announced the reopening of two of the churches it had closed. As I arrived, I was pleased to be informed that a third church that had been closed has now been reopened. Christian minorities in that part of the world and beyond are an important priority and part of my role.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister has a long track record of upholding Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights—the right to believe, not to believe or to change your belief—and I join others in the House in welcoming his appointment to this important role. Will he explain the difference to us between the idea of having a roving ambassador, which is the subject of the Question, and having an envoy? Given that the call for an ambassador on freedom of religion or belief was in the manifesto of both the Conservative Party and the Labour Party in the past, what is that difference? Where does it clash with ministerial responsibilities—for instance, upholding DfID policies or issues around declarations of genocide? How will the Minister’s responsibility as a Minister clash with those of the independence that is required a special envoy?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, having special envoy status strengthens the role. Many countries around the world have employed ambassadors and they continue to make representations to Governments. Being at the heart of government, I believe that I will be able to influence policy on exactly the kind of points and issues that the noble Lord raises. I assure him that I have represented this particular area in my wider brief as Minister for Human Rights, and the ability to influence the direction of policy and statements that are made is an immense privilege. To do that within government as well as being an envoy to the Prime Minister will, I believe, open further doors.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I completely accept the ability of the noble Lord to wear many hats and I think everyone in this House will admire the way that he has carried out his previous responsibilities. But the key here—he is absolutely right—is that it is a cross-Westminster, cross-departmental responsibility. Can he tell us a little more about how as a Minister for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office he will ensure that there is co-ordination across Westminster and Whitehall departments to ensure the effective implementation of this policy?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That is a very important question and I assure the noble Lord that that will happen both in terms of ministerial engagement and with officials. We are currently setting up the structures on a cross-departmental basis. There is already strong working between DfID and the Foreign Office. But I want to extend that further from a local government perspective in terms of the initiatives domestically and in education. In that regard, I shall be meeting my noble friends Lord Bourne and Lord Bates later today to discuss the framework. That ministerial engagement will happen on a regular basis.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, in congratulating the noble Lord, I also recognise the excellent work that his predecessors, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Warsi and Lady Anelay, from this House have done on inter-faith relations. I am glad that he recognises the links between the domestic agenda and the international agenda. Does he see part of his role to explain to significant foreign Governments the extent to which what happens in their countries spills over within Britain, whether it be the actions of fundamentalist Christian groups in the United States or fundamentalist Muslim groups in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord speaks from his own wide experience and I pay tribute to his work during the coalition Government in this respect. He is of course right. I join in his acknowledgement of the role that both my predecessors, my noble friends Lady Anelay and Lady Warsi, played in strengthening this role. We should be proud of the fact that we in the UK have incredible diversity of communities, of faith and of those with no faith. That is not something that we hold back from. It is an incredible strength that we have in our incredible nation and we need to protect it.

It is right that we raise these important issues bilaterally with Governments elsewhere. But I also believe, as I said in my original Answer, that working with colleagues across your Lordships’ House and in the other place, strengthening the role of civil society and of faith players in what we do domestically and internationally, will be a vital part of how we can strengthen and consolidate our position on standing up for all beliefs and none, not just in the UK but around the world.

Sudan

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 28th June 2018 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I join all noble Lords in thanking my noble friend Lord Sheikh for tabling this important debate. I pay tribute to him for his continuing support for the development of relations between the United Kingdom and Sudan. I am pleased that he, together with other noble Lords, had a productive and constructive visit to Sudan, and I put on the record the thanks of Her Majesty’s Government to the APPG for its report and recommendations on this matter.

I shall now address the various questions raised by noble Lords in what has been a debate of hope and optimism, as well as one of challenge and realism. I turn, first, to the cultural and educational ties between our countries. Noble Lords have alluded to the population of Sudan. The median age in Sudan is under 20, more than half the population are under the age of 24, and nearly 40% are younger than 15. Therefore, picking up on a point raised by my noble friend Lord Sheik and others, education is vital if the country is to fulfil its full potential. The noble Baronesses, Lady Tonge and Lady Uddin, mentioned the importance of gender equality in education and opportunities for girls in particular. They and all noble Lords will be aware of the priority that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has laid on 12 years of quality education, which we continue to emphasise not just in our bilateral engagement with Sudan but across the world. That is why the British Council also runs projects that now train 4,600 teachers, improving the standards across science, maths and English of 6,500 teachers, and providing English textbooks at all levels in schools across the country.

In higher education, we provide opportunities for Sudan’s brightest young people to stretch themselves at world-class British universities. As was acknowledged by my noble friend Lord Sheikh and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office provides funding for Chevening scholarship programmes. The number of scholarships offered each year has tripled since 2014. The specific issue of numbers was raised, but in recent years the trajectory has been upward, and that will continue. More generally, the British Council encourages educational and scientific co-operation between Sudan and the UK, and promotes cultural ties through projects that include supporting the digitisation of Sudanese historical records, and refurbishing museums. That adds to growing stability in the country.

My noble friend Lord Sheikh raised the important issue of trade. Our bilateral trade is worth in the region of £90 million. I assure him that we are actively considering the best way to support business links between the UK and Sudan, and encouraging Sudan to make improvements to the business and regulatory environment to promote inward investment and improve Sudan’s economy. We welcome active contributions and further ideas from noble Lords, of course.

Let me be clear, however, that the UK is not prioritising trade over human rights, a subject raised by the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Chidgey. As the Human Rights Minister at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, I can say that improving human rights in Sudan continues to be a key priority of the UK’s bilateral engagement. Our human rights priorities will include respect for the rule of law, which will further people’s rights—especially women’s, as raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge—and encourage investment. We believe strongly that trade can help to open up closed-off political and economic systems, and thereby improve human rights through the creation of wider employment opportunities.

I assure the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that we are very much committed on technical support for economic reforms in Sudan. That was discussed in detail at the fifth round of the UK-Sudan Strategic Dialogue in April, which I know that all noble Lords welcomed. The UK has been working with international partners to galvanise support to help Sudan commit to, and deliver, macroeconomic reforms while simultaneously managing the impact on the poorest in society.

In the immediate term, we are concerned at the increasingly acute economic issues that Sudan faces, including shortages of fuel, which we predict will affect the 2018 harvest. Concern about that was expressed by several noble Lords. We will of course continue to work with the Government of Sudan on the necessary macroeconomic reforms and wider reform programme. Our other main priorities in our engagement with Sudan are helping to resolve its conflict and addressing human rights concerns.

The challenges in Darfur were raised by the noble Lords, Lord Chidgey and Lord Hussain, among others. The security situation there remains fragile despite a recent reduction in fighting between government forces and armed movements. We remain concerned by continuing reports of clashes between the Sudan Liberation Army–Abdel Wahid—and government forces. I assure noble Lords that we continue to raise the matter bilaterally with Sudan, because it is important to recognise—as we all do—that civilians continue to bear the brunt of this appalling violence. Many have been killed, villages have been burned and it is estimated that nearly 9,000 have been internally displaced. The joint UN-African Union mission in Darfur is a key focus for that, and it is unacceptable that its humanitarian actors have been prevented from accessing affected populations.

We all acknowledge that there is no military solution to the conflict. The UK, alongside our troika partners—the United States and Norway—calls on all parties to immediately cease military action. The noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, mentioned Jebel Marra in this respect. We believe that all parties should engage meaningfully with the peace process. We are also working with international partners to provide humanitarian assistance to Darfur.

The noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, raised the issue of South Sudan and Sudan’s role in the peace process. We welcome Sudan’s role in hosting the latest round of talks in Khartoum and its constructive role within the region. We have taken note of the agreement.

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, raised the issue of East Sudan. I can assure him that we have not forgotten the people of the east, which remains a major challenge. DfID support is now focused on providing water infrastructure, which will benefit both the local communities and the refugee population that he mentioned, and we continue to provide wider humanitarian assistance.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, also raised the issue of South Sudanese refugees. I acknowledge the support Sudan has provided in this regard, both through the opening of humanitarian corridors and allowing those fleeing from that conflict to seek shelter, in the northern regions in particular.

On the humanitarian situation, in 2018 the number of people in need of humanitarian aid in Sudan has risen to over 7 million, and nearly 2 million are internally displaced in Darfur. Sudan is also providing shelter, as I have said, to many South Sudanese refugees. The UK is an important donor, and last year we provided nearly £60 million to help communities to meet their basic needs and to sustain their livelihoods and resilience to crisis. I shall write to the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, on the issue of the UNHCR and how much we have given, but we remain one of the largest contributors to the Sudan humanitarian fund.

The noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, raised the important issue of women’s health. As she may be aware, through DfID the UK continues to provide support to women and their families. We reached over 600,000 women, children and girls last year with nutrition and food interventions. She will be pleased to learn that we also fund projects to end the practice of FGM.

The UN’s peacekeeping mission in Darfur continues to make progress and to support the gradual reconfiguration of its mission. The noble Lords, Lord Sheikh and Lord Chidgey, mentioned extremism. Countering extremism will continue to figure in our strategic dialogue. Human rights will also be primarily focused on, including the issues of freedom of religion, freedom of expression and sexual and gender based violence. This was mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Luce and Lord Collins.

We have seen real progress. For example, the case of Nora Hussein, has been a positive example. Her death sentence has been overturned, which we all welcome. The noble Lords, Lord Chidgey and Lord Collins, referred to positive influences, and that is one of them. We also welcome the release of Dr Ibrahim.

Specific questions of detail were raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, on the issues of equality and ensuring greater support for women and girls. I can assure her that that remains a key priority for the Government.

The noble Lord, Lord Luce, raised the issue of the 2020 elections. We agree that these will be a critical milestone in Sudan’s reform process. Former President Mbeki, who leads the AU’s peace process, is focused on enabling the opposition to participate in a fair way. The UK expects, and will continue to lobby for, monitoring arrangements to be a part of this process.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Tonge and Lady Uddin, rightly focused on many issues around girls’ education and health and on ensuring protection for women under the rule of law. I assure them, as the Prime Minister’s special representative on preventing sexual violence in conflict situations, we will continue to encourage Sudan to ratify the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women, and we will continue to employ a greater level of support for equality in all levels of education.

This has been a constructive and positive debate. Too often when we draw attention to different parts of the world there is great negativity and no recognition of the positive steps that have been achieved. All contributions from noble Lords have underlined the importance of progress and the need to be vigilant in ensuring that progress continues to be made. The UK welcomed the US decision last year to permanently lift economic sanctions. However, debt relief can only realistically be expected to come after Sudan demonstrates real evidence of macroeconomic reform. The UK is now assessing whether there is sufficient commitment by the Sudanese Government to make the necessary reforms. We will continue to champion this through dialogue, including an emphasis on women’s rights.

I assure all noble Lords that we will continue to work constructively on progress in Sudan. We will continue to observe constructive engagement in all areas, which can, over time, lead to greater security, stability and prosperity for all Sudanese people.

Violent Extremism

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 28th June 2018 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, for tabling this debate, for his valuable contributions in the production of this report and for the role he plays within the scope of international development and foreign affairs. I welcome our exchanges during Commonwealth Week. I also pay tribute to the helpful work of the sub-committee of the All-Parliamentary Group for the British Council, whose report we are debating today. I add my sincere thanks to all noble Lords who have taken part in this excellent debate for their insightful contributions. While I have limited time, I shall seek to cover most of the issues, and on anything that I am not able to cover I will write to noble Lords.

Let me set out the Government’s approach to countering violent extremism. Everyone normally declares an interest before they begin, and mine is a ministerial interest. I was the first Minister for Countering Extremism appointed under the Cameron Administration in the Home Office. The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, talked about it being a European challenge; I contextualise it as a global challenge. That means that we have to work on global solutions.

While the threat from Islamic extremism receives a great deal of attention, the challenge also remains from extremism of other types. The rise of the extreme right that we have seen not only in this country but elsewhere, particularly in Europe, is also extremely troubling—and, yes, it also influences young minds. We must not lose focus on that. It is therefore right that the Government’s approach seeks to tackle all forms of extremism in all its ugly guises. This poisonous ideology uses narratives which often seek to divide societies, communities, faiths and people. It causes hatred among communities but often appeals to the most vulnerable young people in society.

The United Kingdom Government take a comprehensive approach to countering extremism. As noble Lords know, our priorities include preventing extremism at its source. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, in particular, will be pleased to know that we stand with and work with all our international partners and, importantly, civil society. An all-of-society response is required to meet this challenge.

Noble Lords will also be aware that on 4 June the Government launched their revised Contest strategy, which follows a fundamental review of all aspects of counterterrorism and its drivers. Violent extremism leads to terrorism and often, vulnerable minds are influenced to commit these heinous acts and crimes. We have an all-of-government approach, whether it is through the Home Office or ourselves—I am the Minister responsible for countering violent extremism, and for PV and counterterrorism internationally. We work hand in glove with our partners in the Home Office and across the Department of International Development. You can see how much we work in tandem. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, has joined us for this debate as well.

At this point, I want to quote the DfID Secretary. In a speech in April, when she talked about the Government’s approach, she said that,

“we will go further as part of cross-government efforts to directly tackle national security threats such as conflict, terrorism, violent extremism and organised crime. We will create new country-level programming targeted at specific communities and locations vulnerable to extremism”.

The Government are taking that joined-up approach in tackling this important issue. We share the view expressed by the APPG sub-committee in its report that it is vital to focus on the underlying causes of extremism. We need to tackle those causes, which often lead to young people resorting to violence.

Overseas, a key part of the work of the British Government is supporting projects that are designed to build young people’s resilience to extremism. Let me assure all noble Lords, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, that we will continue to strengthen our close work with the British Council to create opportunities, build trust and provide positive pathways for young people to play a positive role in their communities—a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie. Too often, the emphasis is on negatives. We should also turn the lens to the positive changes that take place. In Syria, the FCO has supported the British Council’s Active Citizens programme—I am sure that my noble friend Lady Hodgson will be pleased to learn that—which gives young people the tools to make a positive difference in the marginalised communities in which they live. It includes the development in Syria of networks of young leaders, who will maintain peace between different communities.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked about the evidence base when we act in this regard. Let me assure noble Lords that the Government draw on the latest evidence in the design and implementation of the programme. Indeed, DfID specifically looks at that evidence base for initiated programmes. On CVE, we are looking at understanding and addressing the context for specific drivers of violent extremism; that is being shared across government.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, talked about the CSSF and its funding and transparency. I am sure he will acknowledge that where the Government see that these funds have been used in a manner that is not conducive to the resilience we want to build in communities—for example, in Syria, where we are lending support to organisations such as the White Helmets in helping to build resilience and human rights accountability—we will suspend that funding and carry out a fully comprehensive investigation.

In Morocco, we have also supported young people in marginalised communities to become active community members. As a result of our work, we have seen real progress in neighbourhood associations, empowering young people and encouraging them to build bonds of friendship—not just through what one would term “traditional channels”. We must look for broader solutions, whether through the arts, theatre, or—let us not forget, as the World Cup is under way—sport.

What are the drivers of radicalisation? I want to give a personal reflection. I grew up as a young Muslim, going to a church school and learning about different communities—some of all faiths, some of none. In meeting this challenge, we often pose ourselves the obvious question of why today’s generation is impacted on when other generations—such as our parents’ generation, if I were to personalise it—did not struggle with this. The challenge starts in the home, but so does the solution. We must also seek to improve capacities, not just in UK homes but internationally, to help parents to be part of the solution. They cannot be excluded from this.

As articulated so eloquently by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, this requires a one-community solution. That means bringing in communities and faith leaders, not leaving them marginalised, and making them feel that they do not just have a buy-in to the process but are intrinsic to it. That is why, as noble Lords will know—again, the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, will know this in the context of Syria and Iraq—we launched national action plans with other countries that focus on the issues of gender equality. Excellent work is being done across government on the women, peace and security agenda, where the MoD, DfID and the Foreign Office come together to build resilience, communities and opportunities in such countries. It is part and parcel of rolling out better solutions to tackling and countering violent extremism—indeed, preventing it. However, as the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, so aptly put it, it is about identifying those communities and the young people themselves. I was with the noble Lord in Gambia, where we saw how young people must be intrinsic to building the solutions. I assure noble Lords that our commitment to that is absolutely 100%

I turn to other countries. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and my noble friend Lady Hodgson asked about specific programmes. In Tunisia, we are working to improve the economic prospects of young people in a number of ways. We are funding an initiative to support young entrepreneurs by providing training and mentoring, to help them succeed. As the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, said, employment must be part of the solution. We are also supporting a pilot project aimed at preventing the problem of young Tunisians dropping out of school early, and at re-integrating those who already have. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, mentioned that 100,000 young Tunisians are impacted in this way each year. We must focus on helping their early learning. I have three children of my own. Children are receptive; their minds are like a sponge. However, I also echo the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, who spoke about coercion in the way we teach young children. The approach, tone and method through which young children are taught are equally important.

In Lebanon, we are supporting improvements in education for refugee children, to build their resilience against extremism. In the light of our findings about the link between conflict and radicalisation, in Jordan we have been supporting a Mercy Corps project to teach conflict management techniques in 30 communities where Jordanians and Syrians live together. This reduces the risk of intercommunity tensions and marginalisation. We are also working internationally. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked about a PVE charter. I would welcome a further discussion with him in that regard, but I assure him that we are working closely with the UN Secretary-General’s initiatives on PVE and extremism. There may be an opportunity to see how we can tie this together.

My noble friend Lady Hodgson and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, asked about UK and EU financial contributions. The Strengthening Resilience in MENA programme represents about €3.3 million over 2015 to 2017, but I will write specifically to my noble friend and the noble Baroness about that. We also have a very successful project in Tunisia, a three-year programme funded by the cross-government North Africa Good Governance Fund, which is one of the alternative pathways that the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, mentioned. I totally align myself with the sentiments she expressed about the Young Arab Voices programme. In the interests of time, I will write to the noble Baroness about specific support to the British Council in areas such as central Asia.

I have received my noble friend Lord Balfe’s letter. We will be responding accordingly and I look forward to discussing his proposals in more detail. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, the Government are investing quite specifically in programmes addressing countering extremism in Iraq and Syria, and our project work is well known.

In conclusion, I concur totally with the sentiments of noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, knows my view on this: education is central to everything we do, but it is not just about educating young people. What is important is what we teach them, how the education is delivered and who delivers it. I thank all members of the all-party group for their excellent report and look forward to working with them on this international challenge, which requires an international solution. I remain ever optimistic; together we can defeat the scourge of extremism as it besets us.

Turkey: Prisoners

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Balfe]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what impact they anticipate the outcome of the Turkish general election on 24 June will have on the government of Turkey’s treatment of those in prison, and in particular on its alignment with the principles laid down by the European Court of Human Rights.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, following the re-election of President Erdoğan and the majority control of Parliament by the ruling Justice and Development Party on 24 June, we expect Turkey to safeguard the human rights of all its citizens, including those in prison, in line with its international human rights obligations. We urge Turkey to make progress in these areas and to lift the state of emergency, and we stand ready to help Turkey in any way we can.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his answer. The European Court of Human Rights is of course a part of the Council of Europe, which this week has adopted a report showing that there are still thousands of prisoners in Turkey some two years after the coup. What is the Foreign Office doing in relation to individual representations? I have tabled a number of Questions about individuals, and I have been fobbed off with answers about general principles. Do we still make representations about individuals and, secondly, do we work in political co-operation with our EU partners? What are we going to do when we leave the EU? Will we be on our own, or will we still seek to work with them?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend raises three questions. First, he asked about the representations that the United Kingdom Government make. I assure him that, most recently when the Prime Minister met the President, we continued to raise various cases not only in general terms but in specific terms. He used the phrase “fobbed off”, which is not a phrase that I am familiar with in the context of the Foreign Office. I assure him that we make representations to the highest level consistently and on individual cases. As for working with our European partners, we continue to—and, as my noble friend knows, we strongly support the important monitoring work of the Council of Europe.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the fact is that, since the coup, 160,000 people have been arrested under the state of emergency and 152,000 civil servants have lost their jobs. The situation is getting worse and, while I note what the Minister is saying about representations—I welcome those made by the Prime Minister—what direct steps are the Government taking to ensure that the state of emergency is lifted as soon as possible?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As with any bilateral relation, as the noble Lord is aware, we have strengthened co-operation over a range of areas. We co-operate with Turkey on aviation security and counterterrorism, and those important relationships are valued both by us and by Turkey. It is the nature and strength of that relationship that allows us to be very candid, open and honest in our exchanges on human rights issues, including the detentions the noble Lord has referred to. We continually raise those concerns generally and, as I said to my noble friend, specifically.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, I acknowledge the remarkable 87% turnout at the elections at the weekend and President Erdoğan’s victory, with 53% of the vote. However, will the Minister outline how Her Majesty’s Government can influence President Erdoğan—now that he has the extra executive powers, of course—on the question of returning to the principles of human rights and freedom of expression, which are the cornerstone of a mature democracy?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, we of course recognise that democracy is an important part of any continuing and sustaining Government. We congratulate the President on his re-election, but in his speech he also acknowledged that there was a strong showing for opposition parties in the parliamentary returns, including the Kurdish minority party. We were encouraged by his acknowledging that he has to work more extensively in the interests of all Turkish citizens. As a Human Rights Minister, I can give the noble Baroness the assurance that, through international fora but, most importantly, bilaterally, we continue to press for the lifting of the state of emergency and for the human rights of all citizens of all backgrounds in Turkey.

Turkey: Pride March

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Thursday 21st June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in seeking to uphold and promote global human rights, what support they have given, and what representations they have made, to the organisers and Turkish authorities about the Pride March and celebrations in Istanbul in June 2018.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we have spoken with both the Turkish authorities and the civil society organisers of the Pride march to underline our strong backing for the event. We also urge the authorities to allow it go ahead. Our embassy in Ankara has long supported the LGBTI community in Turkey and we readily urge Turkey to work towards full protection of fundamental rights, including with respect to freedom of expression and assembly.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. He will be aware that, for the past few years, this demonstration has been stopped by the Turkish authorities using both tear gas and rubber bullets. In light of that, will the Government commit to do three things before the march on 1 July: first, to write a letter of support to the organisers, who would welcome that so it could be read out on the day; secondly, to ensure that the flag is flying above the consulate building in Istanbul for the whole of next week; and, thirdly, whoever wins the election this weekend, to send a strong letter to the President stating clearly that the UK Government support the march and will take a very dim view if it is broken up as it has been over the past few years?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I know that the noble Lord has spent a fair deal of time in Turkey, speaking to civil society groups. I assure him that we are working closely with them. On his three points, of course I will take them back. On the second point, about raising the flag, he will be aware that the flag was flown most recently on 17 May, marking the day the world united in standing up against homophobia and other phobias focused on the LGBTI community. On the election, he will be aware that a state of emergency still prevails in Turkey. We have been assured by the President that it will be lifted. I assure the noble Lord that we continue to raise fundamental human rights across the piece, including LGBTI rights, consistently and constantly with the Turkish authorities.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that Kurdish leaders, community members and journalists are being arrested and that, when they are arrested and released, they are charged for the time they were in prison? What does the Minister think of this practice and what will he do to put pressure on the Turkish Government to stop it?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am fully aware of the issue and the clamp-down on journalists in Turkey, not just Kurdish journalists but more generally, is something we have raised consistently. The noble Lord will be aware of the issue around other human rights defenders, including Amnesty International. I assure him that the Prime Minister, in her last meeting with the Turkish President when he was visiting London, raised the issue of the freedom of the press and of journalists being held and detained directly with him. He may well be aware that today sees the latest hearing in the trial of the current leader of Amnesty International in Turkey, Mr Kilic, and our embassy in Ankara has sent representation to that hearing.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, when President Erdogan met the Prime Minister, they agreed to stress the importance of human rights. Mark Field, the Minister, in the debate earlier this month said that the Government were keeping under review whether Turkey should be a human rights priority designation country. How active is that review, bearing in mind the ongoing situation with human rights abuses which are getting worse since he met the Prime Minister? How exactly is that review being conducted?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As the noble Lord will be aware—and I speak as a human rights Minister—30 countries are highlighted as part of our human rights report annually, which focuses not just on those countries with the worst types of human rights abuse across the piece, but also countries that have shown some degree of progress and where the United Kingdom exerts influence. The noble Lord will know that, irrespective of whether countries, including Turkey, are on that list, we constantly raise all matters relating to the suppression of human rights, be they on the LGBTI agenda or on press freedoms and other human rights defenders, and we will continue to do so. I assure him that we work very closely with Turkey on various other issues, but that co-operation does not mean that we do not candidly and forcefully raise the issue of human rights directly.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, whoever wins the elections in Turkey on 24 June will have sweeping new powers as an executive President. The very significant and dynamic Turkish community in this country is paying very close attention to what is going to happen, particularly in our relationship with Turkey. Can the Minister give an assurance that future UK-Turkey trade talks will ensure that respect for human rights will be at the heart of any discussions?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness speaks very eloquently, and of course we take great pride in all our diasporas. We talked just now about the Caribbean diaspora, which is a pride of Britain—but all our diasporas are, including our Turkish diaspora here in the United Kingdom. That is an important part of how we deal with and strengthen our relationship with Turkey. We are a friend of Turkey and work with Turkey across issues of aviation security, counterterrorism and the importance of trade, and I assure the noble Baroness that the issue of human rights is central in all our discussions.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether the United Kingdom has raised the issue of general and grievous human rights violations in the Human Rights Council in Geneva?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As someone who regularly attends the Human Rights Council in Geneva, whether it is with Turkey or with all countries, I can say that our record will show that we consistently raise these important issues and the priorities which are often reflected in your Lordships’ House. I assure noble Lords that I listen to them very carefully and then articulate them at the Human Rights Council.

BBC Persian Staff

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 12th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to prevent the harassment of BBC Persian staff by the Iranian authorities.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, we are concerned by the charges and the wider activity against BBC Persian staff in Iran. We expressed our concern about this at the UN Human Rights Council on 12 March, and both the Foreign Secretary and the Minister for the Middle East have raised the issue with their Iranian counterparts on several occasions. I assure noble Lords that we will continue to raise the treatment of BBC Persian staff and their families with the Iranian Government.

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that Answer. BBC World Service staff working on the Persian service, which is a vital source of impartial news in that area, continue to be harassed and targeted by the Iranian authorities. While I know that the Foreign Secretary has raised this at the highest levels with the Iranian Government in recent times, what assurance can we have from the Government that they will continue to worry about this? This is a serious state of affairs for the BBC World Service.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure my noble friend that we will continue to raise this. The latest example of this was when my right honourable friend Alistair Burt, the Minister of State for the region, visited on 29 April and raised this directly. My noble friend is also quite right that in July 2017 a criminal investigation was opened into the activities of all BBC Persian staff, which includes alleging that their work constituted a crime against Iran’s national security. The result has been great hardship, the freezing of assets, and 152 named individuals linked to the BBC Persian service have been captured by this. We continue to implore the Iranian authorities to treat the situation in such a way as to ensure the freedom of the press in Iran, and we will continue to press for such.

[Lord Clarke of Hampstead (Lab)]

My Lords, obviously the House wishes the Minister well in his attempts to get this situation put right for BBC staff. But given the track record of Rouhani and his Government on dealing with the human rights of his own people, I would not hold your breath about them changing their minds very quickly. What will Her Majesty’s Government do to make sure that we get better treatment for the BBC staff than we got for the unfortunate lady from Hampstead, who is still incarcerated after repeated attempts by this Government to get her released?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right. The human rights situation—I speak as the Human Rights Minister—is dire not just for the people of other nationalities or joint nationality, as the case that he has pointed to illustrates, but for Iranians themselves. We have seen the persecution of minority communities, including Christians and Baha’is, continuing in Iran. Our attitude, which I think is the right one, is that we will persevere with our bilateral exchanges directly with the Iranians and we will continue to raise this matter through international fora, including the Human Rights Council, as I have done most recently.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, many in the BBC Persian service are dual nationals. The noble Lord made very brief reference to Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, who has dual nationality. She has now been in prison for 800 days, and yesterday marked her daughter’s fourth birthday. Can the noble Lord be a bit more expansive about what the Government are doing to seek her release, especially after the flurry of activity in various directions last year by the Foreign Secretary?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure that I speak for all noble Lords——I speak as a parent, too—when I say that our hearts go out to a young child whose parent was absent for a notable birthday, and our compassion goes out to the family. Many sensitivities are associated with the case that the noble Baroness raises and other consular cases, but I reassure her that we regularly raise the case of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, as well as other cases, and we will continue to do so. The issue of dual nationals is pertinent because Iran does not recognise dual nationality.

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a series producer working at CNN. Last year, the Government gave an extra £85 million to the BBC World Service, which helped set up 12 new BBC language services in areas where free speech is oppressed. That funding has a commitment for two years. What are the Government’s plans for funding these services beyond 2020?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The Government have indicated their commitment through the funding that the noble Viscount has alluded to. In terms of longer-term funding, we believe strongly in the BBC World Service, most notably in its provision of impartial news and support to various populations across the world. I will write to the noble Viscount about funding beyond 2020.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, why does the Foreign Secretary not summon the Iranian ambassador to the Foreign Office every day until Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe is released?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure that my right honourable friend will take note of my noble friend’s suggestion. However, I say to my noble friend that we do not miss any opportunity to raise consular cases. This is not just about the ambassador; let us be clear that, when it comes to the Iranian Administration, these calls are made in Tehran. We make these issues known not just to Foreign Minister Zarif but to President Rouhani, and there is also great influence in these cases from Ayatollah Khamenei, the spiritual leader in Iran. I do not believe that summoning the ambassador every single day would result in the release of Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe or the outcome that we desire.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the fact is that this issue has global implications. The BBC World Service has a well-deserved reputation, certainly in going to parts of the world where freedom of speech is denied. The noble Lord has spelled out what we are doing to raise the issue with the Iranian authorities, but can he spell out in more detail how we are building alliances with other countries, particularly with our allies in the EU, to tackle this problem?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord raises an important point. This morning I attended a meeting of UN counterparts within the EU family. The important message that I conveyed was that we will continue to work co-operatively and collaboratively with our EU partners when we leave the European Union. As we saw on a different matter relating to Iran—the JCPOA—concerted action demonstrated unity. The fact that Chancellor Merkel, President Macron and Prime Minister May acted together ensured that that deal stayed on the table. That important collaboration should be a key focus of our continued co-operation with our European partners.

Burma

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Excerpts

Tuesday 12th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have expressed their deep concern at the surge of fighting in Kachin since April. We have called upon the Burmese military and all parties to cease hostilities and allow the humanitarian access that is required to be provided to displaced people. Turning to Rakhine, the Burmese authorities must show that the commission of inquiry can deliver accountability for the perpetrators of atrocities. If not, the Government will consider supporting international routes to justice.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Those responsible have been emboldened by the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Rohingya Muslims, the destruction of villages and killings, torture and rape. What practical things do we intend to do in response to the United Nations estimate that fighting in Kachin and Shan states has now driven a further 120,000 people into 167 inaccessible displacement camps? How are we responding to the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court’s request that these unconscionable war crimes and crimes against humanity be referred to her court? Is not it high time that senior members of the Burmese military such as General Min Aung Hlaing are targeted with sanctions and brought to justice?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

On the noble Lord’s final point, of course we have exercised the tool of sanctions against several members of the military, and continue to use that tool. On his more specific point on the displacement of people in Kachin, there has been an emboldening. Not only has the Rohingya community suffered immensely following its displacement—with almost 1 million in Bangladesh, if you take it over a longer period—but so too have specific communities in Kachin, predominantly Christian minority communities. There has been internal displacement, and quite often the full extent of that displacement has not been revealed because of lack of access. There is a glimmer of hope from the civilian Administration in that, for the first time, we have seen Burma sign an MoU with the UN agencies concerned—the UNHCR and the UNDP—which took place on 7 June. In a recent conversation with the civilian leader, Aung San Suu Kyi, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary reiterated the importance of ensuring the full return of all refugees, be they from Rakhine or from Kachin.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, remembering the role that the late Robin Cook played as Labour Foreign Secretary in his advocacy of the International Criminal Court, have the Government ever referred anyone to that court?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

In terms of how many times there have been actual referrals, I will have to write to the noble and learned Lord. I assure him that the Government are fully supportive of the ICC and its efforts in this regard. We support all mechanisms in bringing the perpetrators of crime to justice.

[Baroness Cox (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the last time I was in Kachin state I visited a village where I was told of how a local woman was abducted by the Burmese army, tied to a post in the army camp in full view of her family, repeatedly dragged away presumably for rape or other maltreatment, and eventually disappeared? A recent statement from the Kachin global network claims that:

“There have also been ongoing abductions, deaths, and injuries by landmine explosion, torture and subsequent health problems, and mortar shells exploding on civilians’ houses”.


Will Her Majesty’s Government raise as a priority with the Burmese Government the issue of the atrocities and violations of human rights perpetrated with impunity by the Burmese army?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Let me assure the noble Baroness that we are doing just that. We have all been horrified, first by what we saw in the Rohingya crisis, and now by the situation we see unravelling in Kachin. I assure her and all noble Lords that we will continue to implore the Burmese authorities, and that includes bilateral visits such as those made by my right honourable friends the Foreign Secretary and the Minister of State for Asia, Mark Field. We will continue to raise this through international fora, both at the UN and at the Human Rights Council.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, the reported atrocities against the Rohingya have been described as crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing and genocide. What assessment have Her Majesty’s Government made as to whether the human rights violations in Kachin and Shan states meet the criteria of at least crimes against humanity and war crimes?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The right reverend Prelate is correct on the issue of the Rohingya, and as a Government we think that ethnic cleansing has taken place. Indeed, that is self-evident because of the number of refugees we have seen pour into Bangladesh. As I said in response to an earlier question, the situation in Kachin is of deep concern, but because of the lack of access for international agencies it is difficult to determine the issue of genocide more specifically. As regards judicial opinion, we will be guided appropriately, but we have certainly seen ethnic cleansing take place in Rakhine state—there is no better term for it. In Kachin, too, what we are seeing is very troubling, but a full assessment cannot be made because of the lack of access.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, 32% of Burma’s population are from ethnic minorities, so we are seeing the systematic persecution of people spread from one group like the Rohingya to another like those in Rakhine state. Can my noble friend the Minister please outline whether this systematic persecution has had any impact on the ability of the UK Government to employ people from the Burmese ethnic-minority population in our embassy in Rangoon? I understand that around 70% of the embassy’s staff are normally recruited locally. Can he confirm that we are not restricted in who we can recruit by virtue of this persecution?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Our recruitment policy reflects the impartiality we would employ in any circumstances. It would be beneficial for all noble Lords to know the exact numbers and I will look into that. My noble friend, who speaks from great experience, makes an important point; namely, that we need to ensure that we demonstrate the inclusive nature of our operations in all our actions, including the efforts we are making on the ground in Rangoon. As I have said, there is a degree of hope, in that for the first time the United Nations is now gaining access to parts of Burma. We will continue to impress on both the civilian and military authorities for that access to be applicable universally across the country.