Firefighters’ Pension Scheme (England)

Lord Beith Excerpts

Monday 15th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

Time is very short and I want to bring my remarks to a close.

While claiming that firefighters will be able to maintain their fitness, the Minister has simultaneously reassured the House that there will be redeployment opportunities. However, she has provided no evidence of that being the case. At oral questions on 10 November, the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) asked:

“Given that the Minister has recognised that there remain severe reservations about the fitness test for firefighters, is she saying that she will pass regulations that will ensure that firefighters who fail the fitness test will not lose their jobs, because there are insufficient numbers of back-office jobs in the fire service to accommodate them?”—[Official Report, 10 November 2014; Vol. 587, c. 1165.]

The answer from the Minister was, “Yes.” If firefighters believed that answer, there would not be a problem, but they do not. The reason is that the Minister has been completely unable to explain to the House how she intends to ensure—that is an important word—that firefighters who find themselves in that position will not be dismissed. Indeed, when I asked the Minister last week in a written parliamentary question

“how many redeployment opportunities there are within the Fire and Rescue Service to accommodate firefighters who are unable to maintain an operational fitness standard”,

she replied:

“We do not keep data on redeployment opportunities for firefighters.”

If the Department has no data, the Minister does not know, so how exactly can she make the promise that she has made? Where will the jobs suddenly come from?

The Minister then tries to rely on the Government’s promise to put fitness principles on a statutory footing, but there is a problem with that, too. The national framework is only guidance and cannot be binding because section 21 of the Fire and Rescue Act 2004 requires only that fire and rescue services “have regard” to the advice. In case there is any doubt, the Local Government Association employers said in response to the consultation:

“Whilst an FRA would of course have to be mindful of the content of the Framework it would not be compelled to comply with it”.

If fire and rescue authorities cannot be compelled to do so, where is the guarantee?

The alternative would be to pay an unreduced pension. My final question is where the Government’s guarantee is on that. I have here today’s written ministerial statement, which I have read carefully. Where is the guarantee? There is not one. I also have here the letter that the Minister wrote to me today, in which she says:

“The Framework also reminds fire and rescue authorities of the fact that they have the opportunity to retire firefighters over 55 on an unreduced pension if they so wish.”

That is not a guarantee. There is no guarantee.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Hilary Benn]

I am going to finish my remarks.

If we follow the Government’s logic, either the regulations are based on a flawed assumption about VO₂ max levels or an additional burden will be placed on fire and rescue authorities at a difficult time. The truth is that the Government have put the pension regulations cart ahead of the fitness horse.

To conclude, the regulations are unfit because Ministers have drawn them up based on the flawed claim that all firefighters can maintain their fitness—it is flawed because Ministers cannot tell us what the fitness standard is and because their assumption on fitness is not safe. The Government claim that they will be able to maintain operational fitness standards for firefighters, and they try to offer reassurances that anyone who falls below those standards will be redeployed, even though by her own admission the Minister cannot say how many redeployment opportunities there are. They have failed to come forward with fairer early retirement actuarial reductions, despite the Government Actuary costing the alternative within the same financial constraints. Ministers have claimed that there is a guarantee that firefighters who cannot be redeployed and cannot maintain their fitness will get an unreduced pension, but the documents before the House today show that there is no such guarantee.

For all those reasons, we cannot support the regulations. Members on both sides of the House, many of whom have signed the early-day motion, know that the regulations are not fit for purpose, and I urge the House to revoke them so that Ministers can come back with something that will actually work and is fair to England’s firefighters.

--- Later in debate ---

[Penny Mordaunt]

I will make some progress because this is a central point.

The union wants another kind of regulation—at this time in the pension scheme. I have explained to the union that the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 does not provide the power to put fitness or wider employment issues in the pension scheme. Without a single service, as there is in Scotland, there is no single fitness policy to refer to.

[Sir Alan Beith]

My hon. Friend is seeking to offer a guarantee to firefighters in the position she describes, but what would happen if, once this is implemented, a particular fire authority did not give that level of support to firefighters found to be unfit and did not implement the guidance she describes?

[Penny Mordaunt]

As well as putting the framework on a statutory footing, my Department will be auditing compliance. A small group of people might benefit from the protections, but many more will be thinking about their future in the service, and we need to make it clear, through the fitness group’s work on good practice and by putting the framework on a statutory footing and providing accompanying advice, that we expect fire and rescue authorities to do this.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

The time available does not allow me to spend time discussing the value we attach to the fire service or the issues that arise because the previous Government introduced the age limit of 60, but there is a central issue—

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

[Sir Alan Beith]

No, in my three minutes I am going to make an important point—there is a central point to make. The Minister’s written statement today states:

“These principles…will ensure that no firefighter faces a situation where they are forced to retire without access to a fair pension where they lose fitness through no fault of their own.

I do not doubt her sincerity in asserting that that is what she believes should happen, but what I am still doubtful about, and what I still want to hear more about, is how we ensure that it does happen and that if a particular fire authority does not apply those principles, some action is taken to protect the individual affected. I envisage a situation in which one or two fire authorities do not carry out the letter or the spirit of this framework and I want to know what happens to the individuals in those cases. When people are as close as I am to Scotland—at the border—they look over that border, and firefighters see clearer, firmer protection on the other side. So I would like the Minister to give me clearer assurance as to how she ensures this happens. Merely stating that the framework is part of a statutory framework does not tell me how I can be sure that that firefighter can be protected.

Other firefighters are also affected adversely even if we sort that issue out. For example, a man who has served for 32 years and who had hoped to retire at 50 —he is under the previous scheme—will not now be able to do so. There are also people who will be worse off if the kind of changes that have been proposed are made, for example to assist those retiring at 55, 56 or 57 with a 12% rather than a 22% reduction. But members of the FBU have accepted that it might be reasonable to help that particular group. My primary concern is for the firefighters who, given a lack of non-operational jobs, find they are losing their job and do not know how to enforce what the Minister has said tonight.