Shanghai Cooperation Organisation

Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts

Thursday 16th October 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, to comment on the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, on Tuesday I was at Oxford University, where the head of the presidential administration of Uzbekistan was presiding at the launch of the Uzbek language and cultural centre at the university. Indeed, this month, the University of Cardiff opened a campus in Kazakhstan, so we are active.

I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Stuart of Edgbaston, on this debate, which is very sparsely populated. It needs to be taken to the Floor of the House, because it is crucial that we think through what is going on in the world and how we respond to it. However, I slightly resist one or two of the comments that implied that this change is inevitable and we just have to adapt to it; I do not accept that. We have to have a dynamic role to interact with it and possibly try to help it move in a slightly different direction from what they may intend. I do not mean that in a destructive sense, but we need to engage.

It is interesting that, at the moment, the Government do not seem to know what their relationship with China ought to be. So, today, the head of MI5 said that China is a threat, but the Government are saying that we do not want to upset them. We need to think it through. The noble Baroness is absolutely right about the presentation of the SCO. I say in passing that the photo at the end of it was of 15 men—they were all men—of which 14 were autocrats. There is no doubt at all that this is a different organisation from ours. It is in some way inimical to us, but it exists.

On the figures, it is worth pointing out that the strength of those numbers depends an awful lot on India—and, of course, China, but China is at the core of it. India is a democracy, the one country that is, so that, clearly, is a basis for us to engage, if ever there was one. That is not to say to India, “You shouldn’t be doing this”, but to say, “You are a democracy and they’re not”. It is really important that we have an open channel through and with India on that basis.

I also want to talk about the influence of Russia and China in Africa. China’s belt and road initiative across Asia and Africa is pouring massive resources and potential dependency into countries in Africa, reinforced by what was the Wagner regime, now the Africa Corps, from Russia, whose objectives are not benign. As the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, said, we should expect the SCO to use its soft power, but it is a bit ironic that it is doing so just as we are dismantling ours. It seems to me that this is a good pause for us to think about how we use all our influences.

Earlier today, the Minister said, quite rightly, that this is not just about aid. I accept that; it is about all the resources that characterise what we stand for: trade, investment, culture, the British Council, the BBC and aid. It is about all those things, and we need to promote them much more vigorously.

We have to recognise that China is a major player. People sometimes express surprise that China has emerged in this category but, if you look at the history of the last 2,000 years, China was a major power for most of it. It is hardly surprising that it is now, and it has numbers, capacity and strength. Engagement is clear, but we have to decide what our interests are, what our security is and how we will deal with that. China needs to understand that, while we are willing to engage, trade and co-invest, we are not going to compromise our security any more than China would compromise its own. That is where we have not got it right, right now; we look a bit confused and unclear, and we need to sharpen that up.

The other problem is where the leadership is coming from. The current leadership of the West—the United States—is causing us a lot of difficulties. It does not seem committed to the values that we talk about. President Trump is very happy to talk about his friends in Hungary and Slovakia who are undermining most of our principles, but he is okay about it. He likes strong men—autocratic men, as far as I can see—and is less interested in the rule of law and human rights. He seems a bit cavalier about them, so we cannot rely on the United States to be the leading champions of this.

That puts a role on us to be clearer—if we are sure about our values—about how to assert them much more emphatically than we have done. The noble Baroness, Lady Stuart, was right at the beginning that we are at a pivotal point. It has been going on for a long time, but it is only just dawning on people how pivotal it is. We need to assess that.

Noble Lords will not be surprised to hear me say that we need to improve our relationships with our own continent. We may have differences of view—unlike others, I believe that the exit from the European Union was both bad for us and bad for them; I would love to go back, but I am not pushing that point—but it is clear that we have to find common values. If we are to address this world order, we need to do it in common cause with like-minded parties and countries such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand, which share our values.

I congratulate the noble Baroness and plead for the Government to allow more time and space for these issues to be debated more widely, with inputs that may help the Government get a clearer handle on where we are. We cannot afford to walk away from China—I do not think we should—but we need to be sure, when dealing with China, that it knows where we are coming from and that we know where it is coming from. It needs to be much more open and clearer that we have a different set of values.

My final worry is that when there is a vote in the United Nations, all these countries in Africa, hardly surprisingly, tend to feel that the lead comes not from us but from elsewhere. If we do not do something soon, we will not win any votes in the United Nations.