Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 31st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I think that all of us, including the Minister, will agree that this is a very inadequate substitute for proper debate and decision-making by the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland. However, this is a necessary Bill that has to pass before the dissolution of Parliament if services are to be maintained in the Province.

My understanding is that this will maintain spending at the pre-agreed level. When the former Secretary of State Karen Bradley initiated the beginnings of this year’s budget, she said that there was a real increase in funding for health, yet the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has on many occasions—although not today—given us quite a lot of detail on the waiting lists, shortfalls and problems in the health service. Can the Minister explain how that is consistent with the assurances of the previous Secretary of State that the resources have been increased—or is it just that the increase is not adequate to the challenge?

The noble Lord, Lord Hain, has already sought assurance, which the Minister has given, on funding for the Bill that we hope to get through later this afternoon. Assuming it all goes through, we hope that it will enable interim payments to be made in very short order.

The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, mentioned the RHI situation. There are two issues here: one is the hardship which Mr Buglass was appointed to try to address—it would be interesting to know when he will be able actually to take action—and the other is the lack of a report. There is some suggestion that both of these things should be happening together, because clearly there must be some explanation of who is to blame and why it happened. At the same time, people facing financial crisis need assistance now, not at some time in the indefinite future.

We are rushing this through because we are on the verge of a general election. It is also taking place in Northern Ireland, and it may well be interesting to see whether it will reflect any indication of a change of mood there. I am certain that in hustings across the Province many of the questions that we have returned to time and again will be on the lips of the voters in Northern Ireland, who will be challenging all their politicians on why they are in this situation.

I think the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, knows that the prospect of direct rule has very serious implications. He says that, as far as he sees it, the Northern Ireland agreement has had a coach and horses driven through it, and it is certainly the view of these Benches that the agreement which the Prime Minister claims to be a new deal—it is actually the original deal that the EU offered and Theresa May rejected—is totally incompatible with the Good Friday agreement. The election may well flush that out, both in the Province and across the rest of the UK.

Perhaps the elephant in the room, which I think the Explanatory Notes and the Library Note say has nothing to do with this Bill, is Brexit. Although technically it has nothing to do with it, there are clearly serious implications for Northern Ireland if anything similar to this deal goes through—which could happen within the timeframe of the money that we are currently voting. My only question to the Minister is: if it becomes apparent that there are significant costs borne by the public purse or adding to public pressure in Northern Ireland as a result of any decisions that may be taken relating to Brexit, will there be a recognition that some additional measures may be required? It would be not just adding insult to injury but putting pressure on an already overpressured budget to try to cover contingencies which, by definition, cannot be fully anticipated.

That said, we all recognise that the simple logic is that, if we did not comply with the accelerated passage of the Bill, Northern Ireland would be left with no funds whatever, which of course would be totally unacceptable. The reality is that, as long as there is no Assembly and Executive in Northern Ireland, this House—rather more than the other House, I have to say—will spend more and more time debating more and more aspects of policy issues that affect the people of Northern Ireland and may well have to make ad hoc decisions again and again, as we have done.

I understand the argument of the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, that we have enacted certain measures and not others. That, I suppose, is the nature of where we are in reality. It is not a satisfactory scenario, but my guess is that other issues, some of which may not be quite so contentious, will eventually reach such a critical situation that it will not be possible to make decisions without the intervention of UK Ministers. However, we are not there yet and, in the meantime, it is absolutely imperative that we get the Bill passed.

Northern Ireland (Extension of Period for Executive Formation) (No. 2) Regulations 2019

Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, it is good to be back among noble Lords today. I am conscious that I have had the pleasure of updating your Lordships’ House on Northern Ireland affairs frequently over recent weeks. It should therefore come as no surprise that I seek the House’s approval for this statutory instrument.

The Secretary of State announced on 21 October that he was extending the period for Executive formation to 13 January 2020. That is the only extension permitted under the terms of this Act, and the Secretary of State has no discretion as to the length of that extension. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State took this decision even though he has been making every effort to ensure that there is an Executive that can be sustainably reformed. He was disappointed—I echo and emphasise that—to have to take this step. None the less, it has unfortunately proven necessary. Noble Lords will be aware that, in the absence of Ministers, civil servants have before them a number of responsibilities that would not normally fall to them and we must ensure that they are adequately protected during this period.

As I said on Monday, the reality remains very simple: the parties are close to an accommodation that could see a restoration of the Executive. Only a few issues divide them. But it will take courage and determination for these issues, small though they may be, to be resolved. These regulations ensure that when a new Government return in December, after the election, they can move swiftly to work with the parties and the Irish Government, in full accordance with the three-stranded approach, to break—we hope—the deadlock as swiftly as possible. I know that all of us in this Chamber are very clear that we wish to see a restored Executive for the reasons discussed today and previously occasions. I beg to move.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I have two things to say to the Minister. It is interesting that he thinks this might be the last step on the way. That may or may not be true. We are on the brink of an election. These issues will be pretty actively debated across Northern Ireland and Sinn Féin, the DUP and the other parties will have to explain why there is no Assembly. The outcome of the election may give an indication of whether the mood in Northern Ireland is shifting to put pressure on those who are not co-operating.

The Minister said that he hopes it will be possible to get the Assembly back and that there are only a few issues. To the extent that we know what they are—they seem to come and go a bit—they are issues for the Assembly to discuss, rather than excuses not to be in the Assembly. There is a certain contrariness about it. From the Minister’s statement, it is clear that the Government are looking towards the possibility of an election breaking the deadlock. The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, said he thought we will be in the same place in a year’s time. I hope he is wrong, and I hope the people of Northern Ireland will prove him wrong. Elections may not fundamentally change the position but they will at least bring it up to date. Last time there was an election in Northern Ireland, it was an election to a functioning Assembly. Now people will have to ask why they have not done it, which may well make a difference. That said, we on these Benches are happy to approve the Motion.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, since my name has been mentioned, although not in the usual derogatory way, I shall speak briefly. I do not think any party is more enthusiastic than mine about the restoration of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I have read what the Secretary of State said: that there are a few minor issues that need resolution. That begs the question: if they are so minor, why are they not resolved? We have been here so often. It gives me no pleasure to stand here and say these things; that is not where I am politically and it is not where my party is on this issue. We want to be in there, not only because we have a responsibility to be there but to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland. Whatever these one or two minor issues might be—I say clearly that we have not heard about them yet—let us hear what they are and have a resolution. Unfortunately, it will not happen before the election.

The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, is right: the parties will be challenged, and rightly so, about why we have not got a Northern Ireland Assembly up and functioning. I suspect I will be involved in some way in the election, and I am happy to take that on the chin and give an explanation of why we are where we are. I will do it with some regret.

Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 31st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I endorse what has been said without repeating the multiplicity of words. It will not be understood if this Bill does not reach the statute book. It is incredible that here we have something that unites everyone, yet we now find that we are struggling to get it to its last point. That will not be understood at all, and I find it incredible that we are even questioning whether that might arise.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, if we had not had our concerns about what the other place would do, I think Hansard would have recorded that this Bill went through all its final stages in about three minutes. It is beyond belief that, at the other end, the House of Commons cannot find a few minutes to deal with the Bill, given that I cannot believe that any Member of Parliament would raise any objection from any quarter. And even if they did, it would be on the head of the Member concerned. If this is not put to the House of Commons, I am sorry to say that it will be on the head of the Government, and I do not believe that the Government would want to go into an election having failed to deliver this.

I know that the Minister is entirely with us. Everything that we have done and said here is to support him, and indeed his colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office. I want to impress on the Government, through him, that this is something they would be well advised to find time for. They should recognise that there will be no understanding of an incapacity to find the few minutes that would be needed.

[Lord Hain]

My Lords, I echo what has been said but simply add one point. If this historical institutional abuse of the most horrible kind had taken place in Surrey, Sussex, Kent, Yorkshire, or any one of the regions of England or in the nations of Scotland or Wales, do we seriously imagine that this Bill would not be speeding through the House of Commons immediately it followed its passage here? The answer is surely self-evident: it would have been dealt with. I would not like this Parliament to be in the position where it has failed the people of Northern Ireland, where it would not have failed anybody in Great Britain, because the MPs in Great Britain would make sure that the ruling party was held to account, as I know the Minister wants it to be.

Northern Ireland: Devolved Government

Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

Yes.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, how many more times will the Government watch a failed attempt to bring the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive back into being before they find the kind of initiative that might break the deadlock and give the people of Northern Ireland what they need, which is local politicians capable of delivering and willing to deliver so many things which are hanging undone, unfinanced and undelivered?

Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 28th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, there is complete support for the Bill right across the House. It is very welcome, but it is of course shocking that we are talking about generations of abuse and decades of waiting for the potential to resolve what has happened. The range of abuse shown in the report covers the entire gamut, and obviously the legacy of abuse for those who have survived, and those who sadly did not survive, is clearly long-lasting. Siblings have been split up, sometimes never to see each other again, or perhaps only meeting very much later in life. Parents and children have lost touch, and people have suffered psychological and physical trauma that has made them handicapped for life and, in many cases, deprived of the opportunity to fulfil their potential.

I welcome one or two specific matters in the Bill. In particular, I was pleased to note the explicit role of the commissioner, which is not just to publicise the scheme and advise, support and give help to people in applying for it. It is much more than money that we are talking about here, and the role of the commissioner in both providing general counselling services for those who have suffered, who maybe have not had them up to the point when they present themselves, and providing practical help with literacy, numeracy, education, employment, training and opportunity—particularly for those who are not so far advanced in life, as we are talking about the later years covered by the Act—to have some chance to make some positive development, in spite of the abuse that they have experienced, is welcome. I hope that the commissioner will be really active in involving people in that.

My other point is about the finance, the speed and the timing. I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify the position, both for me and for the benefit of those who may be taking advantage of the legislation. The specifics are that it will be financed out of the budget of the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, which are of course not functioning. It will require consent across the board, and it will have to compete with other services for funding. Many noble Lords have mentioned funding. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, for example, has highlighted how seriously underfunded things such as health and education are. One can see a problem here, unless some of this money is ring-fenced. It would be a travesty if, having got the mechanisms in place, the funding was not really there to deliver the scale. After all, we are talking about the possibility of somebody getting an award of up to £100,000 in addition to the extra services that they may require. That is not an insignificant sum of money, so I would be grateful if, in winding up, the Minister could share: first, some indication of what money will be put in in the beginning to get the process started; and secondly, anything positive he can say about how we can ensure it will be funded. The last thing we want is to be back here in a few years’ time complaining that we set up a wonderful scheme but people found it was slow and tedious, and they did not really get the resolution they had hoped for. Let us be clear: many people have died and many failed to get the support and recognition they needed in the time that they had.

That said, along with all Members who have taken an interest in this subject, the final point I would make is that, in this context, Northern Ireland is leading the way, ironically. Credit is due to the Ministers, civil servants and parties for that, but we have to be realistic. This kind of abuse was not confined to Northern Ireland. We know it happened in Scotland, England, the Channel Islands and of course the Republic of Ireland; that is not our responsibility, but nevertheless there is a legacy there. That being the case, let us hope that this proves to be a beacon, if you like, of how it can be done and that it is taken up by the other components of the United Kingdom to deliver redress for all those who have suffered institutional abuse, not just those in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019: Section 3(5)

Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, we are here because the Government have been mandated to provide regular updates and reports. I think we all want to thank the Minister for the conscientious way in which he has consistently brought these reports forward, and indeed for the progress that has been made in the absence of Ministers with full responsibilities, a functioning Assembly and a functioning Executive. However, there is an underlying frustration that clearly will have to be addressed.

I want to address two or three practical issues. My noble friend Lord Alderdice mentioned the renewable heating initiative. An independent energy consultant, Andrew Buglass, has been appointed to look at hardship cases but it is not entirely clear what the timescale is. We hear from the Ulster Farmers’ Union that farmers are selling stock, selling land and making all the adjustments they can, yet they face the real possibility of going out of business. Can the Minister indicate, now or in the future, whether these issues will be addressed in time, which is a matter of concern?

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

On that point, I remind the Minister that back in March, I think, he promised a Statement indicating how the cases of hardship would be examined and dealt with. I believe we are still waiting for that Statement.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie]

I take note of that. Obviously, there is real concern out there.

Regarding the medical school in Derry/Londonderry, it would be good if we could establish that there is freedom to pursue this idea. Many of us have engaged in different ways. The university tells me that it is in a position to do this, if it is possible to do it. It would still be matter of getting its hands on the money—we know that—but it has a building and a clear plan and it feels able to press ahead. It is always good to see something that takes us forward, rather than leaving us stagnating.

I turn to the situation with political donations, which the report simply says is the same as it was. I suggest to the Minister that we are facing a general election for the UK with a huge lacuna in Northern Ireland, where money can be channelled without it being published. I accept that people have notification that it may eventually be published, and clearly, if anything illegal has been done then at some point or other, they will face prosecution. However, I wonder whether it would be better if the law was enacted now, so that people had to declare it and there was no danger of it being retrospective. I say that because evidence of wrongful raising of money from improper sources has been identified and was used to promote the distortion of a referendum, the consequences of which we are all living with. Yet there has been no action. The reality is that you have to stop it. It is too late afterwards when the result has been manipulated by the misuse of funds. I ask the Minister: is there anything more that can be done or said about that?

My noble friend mentioned an election. There are two things to be said here. The noble Lord, Lord McCrea, said it would be fine to have an election at the end of January. He is confident that his colleagues would get elected. On the other hand, if there was an Assembly election at the same time, under a different electoral system, it might show a slightly different mix of opinion in Northern Ireland. We have had two elections this year and there has been a noticeable, identifiable shift of political opinion in Northern Ireland.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown]

To clarify, I was talking about the Assembly election and having it on 31 January. We are very happy for that to take place.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie]

I am glad to have that clarification. At the end of the day, the point is that the Assembly, which has been dysfunctional for three years, ultimately loses any kind of legitimacy if its mandate is not renewed. It is perfectly likely—as may well be the case with a general election for the House of Commons—that the result will not be that dissimilar to the previous result, and the deadlock will remain unresolved. Nevertheless, if the argument is that we have to have an election to resolve the deadlock in the House of Commons, it is slightly obtuse to say that we do not have to have one to resolve a deadlock in the Northern Ireland Assembly. The idea certainly seems to be becoming more pertinent.

We have not heard the Northern Ireland voice on Brexit in any kind of direct way. Yet we have a potential agreement put forward by the Prime Minister which was denounced by him and denied by his predecessor. It is what the EU asked for in the first instance, which we have wasted three years saying we did not want. Much more to the point—as I am sure noble Lords from the DUP and their colleagues would be quick to point out, and as I pointed out last week—it drives a coach and horses through the Conservative Party’s claim still to be a unionist party. It is absurd to suggest that this agreement, if it goes through, does not create a major division between the activities taking place in Northern Ireland and in the rest of the United Kingdom. As somebody who supports remain, I would prefer to live in Northern Ireland rather than the mainland, under these proposals. It is certainly not a single solution for a single referendum that is UK-wide. Ultimately, that is its fatal flaw, and it may make it very difficult to reach that agreement.

The tragedy of all this is that many of the details concerning how Brexit will impact on Northern Ireland should have been debated in the Northern Ireland Assembly and considered by the UK Government, and the people of Northern Ireland should have been represented. My final parting shot is this. Whether with an interlocutor, other initiatives or whatever, how and when can we get to a point where this derelict, defunct Assembly becomes active and relevant? It is impossible to go on for much longer without direct rule being the outcome. I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, that if that is the case, precisely the same same-sex marriage and abortion rules that have been passed by this House would stand. Direct rule means direct rule. Most of us want to avoid it and we want the people of Northern Ireland to have their say, but three years is long enough and I am not sure that we can go on much longer like this.

Irish Border: Checks and Customs Arrangements

Lord Bruce of Bennachie Excerpts

Tuesday 1st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with wisdom on this matter and brings great experience to the question. I can be categorical: there will be no infrastructure at the border. That is the policy of this Government; it continues to be that, and it will be that going forward. As for the technical non-papers, those are matters for discussion with the EU and it would be inappropriate just now to talk further on them, but this House will have ample opportunity in due course to examine them in the thorough and careful detail that I know it will take to do so.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, has the Prime Minister not acknowledged that there will be physical customs posts within striking distance of both sides of the border? Would that in itself, according to the reaction that we have seen across Northern Ireland, not be deemed by most people to be incompatible with the Good Friday agreement? Could the Minister respond to the freight industry’s suggestion that any such proposal would require designated routes, which clearly would require restrictions on other routes across the border and therefore would in themselves be fundamentally disruptive of free movement across the border? This is a non-paper so presumably the Government are sounding the water, but do they not recognise that what they are coming up against is that there is no Brexit arrangement that will not deeply damage the economy and security of the people of Northern Ireland and indeed of the rest of the UK as well?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I had the pleasure this morning of waking up to the dulcet tones of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister on the “Today” programme. When he was asked about proposing a customs border five to 10 miles back from the border, he was very clear, saying: “That’s not what we are proposing at all”. I reiterate the point that there will be ample opportunity to discuss this very clearly. It is very difficult to discuss a non-paper when the non-paper is not available to discuss.