Brexit: No-deal Ferry Contracts

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 1st May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I was trying to get across to noble Lords the complexity of the maritime market. Flexibility is possible, but it is not unlimited. For example, DFDS had to charter new vessels from very far away to fulfil these contracts. Other vessels had to be reconfigured. Those vessels will now need to go back to what they were beforehand to take on passengers. The noble Baroness looks incredulous, but the contract offered extremely good value to the taxpayer.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Are the Government planning an out-of-court settlement with the ferry companies or do they intend to contest the case?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I am pleased to be able to tell the noble Lord that we have reached a settlement with the ferry companies, as I pointed out earlier, and that the termination fees are £43.8 million. It is clear that we have co-operated with the ferry companies, and we are grateful to them for the amount of mitigation that they have been able to do to reduce the amount of money that we have had to pay. We have had negotiations with them. We tried to sell as many tickets as possible to reduce the cost to the taxpayer and the ferry companies have cancelled sailings. We are grateful for their co-operation and believe that this is a fair settlement of the contract.

Seaborne Freight

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we went ahead with the contract with Seaborne on the understanding that it was a start-up company and did not currently provide the service. As I explained, this was a shorter and therefore cheaper route, which was why we were keen to make use of it. But we have enough capacity in the remaining contracts for prioritised goods.

The DfT is not party to the dredging work at Ramsgate, but of course we will continue conversations with a number of stakeholders, including Thanet Council, over any plans to re-establish ferry services at the Port of Ramsgate.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the dredging started five weeks ago on 3 January, so accounts must have been submitted or Thanet Council will be aware of what the bill is. Have the Government been told how much that bill is? Will the Government pay that bill at the end of the day? How much is the bill to Slaughter and May, Deloitte and Mott MacDonald, to which the Minister referred, for the assessment of Seaborne’s business plans? Finally, in the Statement on 8 January, the Minister told us:

“We are concerned that in the event of no deal, there will be disruption at the Port of Dover … which is why we are making these contingency plans”.—[Official Report, 8/1/19; col. 2128.]


What replacement contingency plans are now being considered to deal with the disruption at Dover, which the Minister herself predicted?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I said, the DfT is not party to the dredging work. I am not able to comment on the value of contracts held by entities other than my department. Dredging of the port is the responsibility of the relevant port authority and continues to form part of the ongoing discussions. As I said, the DfT will continue conversations with a number of stakeholders, including Thanet Council, over plans to re-establish the ferry service.

On the money paid around the Seaborne contract, the contract awarded to Seaborne was part of a broader procurement exercise to secure additional freight capacity after Brexit, and as part of that the three contracts were awarded. Extensive third-party due diligence was carried out on these so a cost would have been attached to the process even if we had never entered into an agreement with Seaborne.

Brexit: Cross-Channel Transport

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as you would understand, we have received numerous representations about the contract—not surprisingly, given the urgency of the procurement. We consider the contracts to be entirely consistent with the Government’s agreement with Eurotunnel. The contract was awarded under the procedure provided for in Regulation 32 of the Public Contracts Regulations 2015, which implement the EU requirements. As the noble Baroness would expect, we are also working closely with Eurotunnel on plans for when we leave the European Union.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Government subsidise the dredging of Ramsgate harbour? Also, to what extent are they relying on pre-lodged customs declarations to avoid delays at ro-ro ports?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, the department is in discussions with Thanet District Council and Seaborne Freight to agree funding on the arrangements for the infrastructure works at the port of Ramsgate. On the customs modelling, as the noble Lord would expect, we have modelled the customs arrangements extensively. Of course, in the event of no deal it is up to the European Union what will be imposed by EU member states on the EU side of the border, and we are working closely with the French authorities to ensure that any disruption is kept to a minimum.

Seaborne Freight

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, we conducted searches on the director of Seaborne via a third party and found absolutely nothing that would prevent the company contracting with the Government, which is why we went ahead. There was no ministerial direction in this case. The company has been working to open the service for over two years. Since we have given them the contract, it has been developing that service, and there will be updates in the near future.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that international haulage operators are today threatening to drop their channel business because of the risk of customs delays and that those who remain are upping their costs by 5%. Can the Minister confirm this? And how can the Ramsgate-Ostend freight service be viable when the cross-channel freight rate for vehicles, which is linked to the Channel Tunnel rate, stands at £180 per container or lorry? That was the rate in 1981 and is still the same 37 years later. Is it not true that numerous attempts have been made to rekindle that service and all have failed? Is it not also true that after dredging—even at those rates—a four-ship, two-rotation, sixteen-sailings-per-day service is still not viable? Is this just a joke?

[Baroness Sugg]

I assure noble Lords that this is not a joke but part of our contingency planning. We are concerned that in the event of no deal, there will be disruption at the port of Dover. Our first priority is to minimise that disruption on the narrow straits, but we are aware it is a real issue, which is why we are making these contingency plans and why we are looking at alternative ways of ensuring that trade carried on ro-ros can continue to come and go from this country.

Drones: Consultation Response

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

I thank my noble friend for her question and for the work she did on this. She is quite right that the European Commission has proposed a number of measures. We are working very closely with our European partners on implementing them. They are still in draft, as things stand, which is why we are taking action ahead of that, but that work is ongoing. We are working very closely with the European Commission to shape the measures; that is why we have taken action on this ourselves. If we compare our regulatory system with Europe or internationally, it does stand up. It also points out that this is a UK problem, a European problem and a global problem. This is the advent of new technology, and how we best address it is something of a challenge, I fully admit.

We have taken geofencing forward and are working with manufacturers to mandate geofencing and conspicuity, which is incredibly important. One of the problems with the Gatwick incident is that it was a crime. There are ways around conspicuity and geofencing —videos are available on YouTube on how to get around them. We can get all the regulations in place—we have done, and we are doing so—but ultimately this was a crime, so we need to ensure that we have the right police powers in order to track these people down and the right counter-drone technology available at our critical national infrastructure sites, which is what we are doing.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not strangely ironic that we can send a man to the moon and around the moon and we can send starships into outer galaxies but we cannot knock out a little bit of equipment not much bigger than a football which is run by four propellers? Perhaps we have got our priorities wrong. I shall ask the question which has been asked of me by many friends in Maidenhead over the past week. They live near Heathrow, but were unaffected by the Gatwick incident. Why was a helicopter not sent up to net the drone? That would have solved the problem and hundreds of thousands of people would not have been inconvenienced.

[Baroness Sugg]

I share the noble Lord’s frustration that it was not easier to get this drone out of the sky. There are various different ways of doing that, including physical effects, such as nets, which were available, and there were helicopters on the ground as well. Sadly, nets are successful only at a certain height, as is counter-drone technology. I can assure the noble Lord that it was not for want of resources or effort that this drone was not taken out of the sky. In this case, the drone came and went a number of times and it was not there for any sustained length of time so it could be brought down. Some of the other suggestions, such as birds of prey or bullets, were not possible. Nets were available, but they are successful only at a certain height. I share the noble Lord’s frustration that it was not easier to get the drone down. It came and went a number of times but was not in the vicinity of the airport for a sustained period of time, which would have enabled that to take effect.

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[Baroness Sugg]

I thank my noble friend for that contribution. Obviously, safety is of paramount importance and continues to be our priority. I will take the opportunity to thank BALPA for its work on this; we are pleased to be able to deliver an extension to the restriction zone. My noble friend is quite right that this is not party political; there is a will on all sides to get this legislation through and to get it right. I look forward to taking it through the House. We will publish the draft Bill shortly and will absolutely welcome noble Lords’ scrutiny of it. I have mentioned that we are already investing in research around counter-drone technology. The Centre for the Protection of National Infrastructure did significant pieces of work on this last year and will continue to do so this year. It will ensure that the advice it gives on counter-drones is available to airports and will give training courses and guidance documents.

However, I agree that we can do more. The noble Baroness is right to say that we are very thankful that no one was harmed in the Gatwick incident, but it has highlighted the importance of ensuring that we have the proper counter-drone technology in place. We are determined to do that and I thank my noble friend for his offer of a financial contribution. As I said, the Government have already invested in this, but I will take that back to the department.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I go back to the question of netting. I cannot see the point in an exclusion zone being widened if the resources are not there to enforce it. We know that these zones are already being breached, as was shown in this latest incident. There are airport workers at Heathrow who believe that a helicopter and a net would have sorted the problem out. The Minister said that it was something to do with height, but I do not understand the logic behind that. Once a helicopter is in the air, it is in the air. When it drops its net, it drops its net to collect. Could she do a bit more homework and ask civil servants to find out why a helicopter and net could not have solved the problem? Let us have a detailed response, please.

[Baroness Sugg]

I can assure the noble Lord that I have certainly done my homework on this. As I explained before, there were nets and helicopters available, but the way that the drone was being used—it was coming into the airport area very quickly and then moving away again—meant that we were not able to bring the drone down in the manner which the noble Lord suggests. The equipment was there, but it could not be used properly because of the way that the drone was being operated. We will continue to invest in research in this area to ensure that we have the best possible methodology available in the future—but, because of the way the drone was being flown, it was not possible to do what the noble Lord suggests.

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[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The drone’s flight was some 14 minutes. I understand that the maximum speed of these drones is about 50 miles per hour; helicopters can travel at 200 miles per hour, so what was the problem? I still think that the Minister is not getting the right answers from her officials.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, there was a huge amount of activity down at Gatwick not only from the Civil Service but from the police, the military and the Home Office, as noble Lords would expect in an incident such as this. Drones move incredibly quickly and this drone was coming in only very briefly, so it was just not possible to put up that mitigation in time to bring the drone down. If it had been there for a significant length of time then that probably would have been possible but, as I have said, the way that the drone was being flown meant that it was just not possible to do that.

One of the aspects that this has highlighted is the need for a proper, layered response to incidents such as this. We have physical mitigations such as nets, which can be launched either from the ground up to a certain height or from a helicopter if at a higher height, but obviously that can be effective only if it is in the vicinity of the drone. The other things that we need are protection and tracing in order to ensure that we are able to see the drone in advance of it arriving into restricted airspace and to trace where it has come from, as well as bringing in the physical effect, which we need to do.

I quite agree that extending the exclusion zone to 30 kilometres would not actually have stopped the drone at Gatwick. We can and have put laws in place, but ultimately this is a crime, so we need to ensure that we have the right penalties, which I think we do; that we have the right laws, which I think we do; that we have the right police powers, which we are bringing forward in legislation; and that we have the right counter-drone technology, where we are investing in research. The counter-drone technology is very complex, and we need to ensure that we get it right from a safety perspective, a privacy perspective and a data perspective. That is a challenge that, following the consultation response, we will work through with the Home Office to ensure that we have absolutely the best counter-drone technology that we can have.

Gatwick Airport

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 20th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, two years ago, on 28 February 2017, I raised the existence of signal jamming equipment operational at a distance of 2,000 feet. In reply the then Minister for transport said he would take the issue up with officials, saying:

“We will be raising his specific point with manufacturers”.—[Official Report, 28/2/2017; col. 709.]


What happened? Was it raised with officials? Was it raised with manufacturers and, if so, what were the results of those conversations?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, as I say, we are working closely with manufacturers on counterdrone technology. That was also something we spoke about in our consultation; we are working closely with the Home Office on both the technological side of counterdrone technology and the physical side.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, we are bound to discuss this very narrow amendment to a very narrow agreement by the Government, but it strikes me that there is a problem in the Bill with the extent to which the Government will be able to insist on charging points in future. For example, many public authorities do not seem to be rising to the occasion. As I understand it—I stand open to correction—the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea does not have any of these charging points. It is a disgrace. Westminster has been much better. There are no party politics in this; it is just one of those things. People do not seem to have woken up to this. Does the Minister feel that the Government have enough power to insist that the public sector, not just the private sector, behaves itself and recognises that it has to rise to this challenge? Unless one can be assured of that, one is very sympathetic to the amendment—except that it does not go far enough.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I wanted to concentrate my remarks on the final group of amendments, but I will intervene briefly on this one. We should be told—perhaps I could have the Minister’s attention—who is actually objecting. We have just been told that local authorities may have concerns, but are private companies, petrol companies or garages objecting? In this particular area, somewhere along the line, there is a blockage. Can we be told whom officials are meeting? What is being said at these meetings? What is blocking this change? Clearly, there is a lot of support across the House for the amendment moved by the noble Baroness.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, Clause 10 seems a crucial part of the Bill. We absolutely need a widely available, dense network of charging points if we are to get people to move to electric vehicles. If the Government want to discourage diesel vehicles, making diesel available only at motorway service stations would be a pretty good way of doing it. It is clear that what is in the Bill at the moment is vastly inadequate. For large parts of the country, motorways are irrelevant. I include my home town of Eastbourne in that; I do not think that I use the motorway from one end of the year to another. By and large, petrol retailers are small and specialised.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, pointed out, these charging points are not in the petrol station parts of motorway service stations. They are in the parking bits associated with all the things you can do for 30 minutes while you wait for your car to re-charge. You do not want to sit next to a petrol pump for 30 minutes. You want to be doing something—at a sports club or a nail bar, or whatever it is that you are going to fill the time with. It is at these big car parks, which are associated with something you can do for 30 minutes, that we ought to insist on charge points. We should insist not because it is in some way disadvantageous to these places to put them in but because, as my noble friend Lord Deben pointed out, some people are being remarkably slow—probably because there are not many electric vehicles around at the moment—to see the advantage of being at the front of the wave in putting in charging points. It is at these big car parks around the country—there are some of them near all of us—that we have to insist on charging points. That is what will make the difference to the take-up of electric vehicles.

--- Later in debate ---

The powers we are seeking in Clause 10 would allow the Government to require more charge points at motorway service areas and large fuel retailers to meet the growing demand for them. In addition to these powers, the proposed NPPF envisages that applications for developments should be designed to enable charging of plug-in and other low-emission vehicles in safe, accessible and convenient locations.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

As I read it, it says that the regulations “may” require. It does not say that they are required. Why, in this particular case, can the Government not simply concede to the amendment? It is not a requirement. It says “may”, so it is up to the Government to decide how they want to proceed.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord is reverting to a discussion that I think we had in Committee, when we had a debate on “may” versus “must”.

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[Lord Young of Cookham]

The consultations I was referring to concern the definition of a large service station. We have not defined that and that is the consultation we want to embark on. Once that consultation has been completed, it is the Government’s intention to use the powers under Clause 10 to make progress and designate areas where we want more charge points.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

On that point, if it is the Government’s intention to proceed, then the word “may” is not really required. Anyhow, why not leave “may” in and include the words in the amendment? I cannot see what the Government lose by accepting this amendment. It is totally at their discretion as to what happens.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Government have made this clear right from the beginning—I shall come on to this in a moment. When we consulted on measures in the Bill we determined that it was most appropriate to mandate provision at sites, such as fuel retailers and service areas, which are already invested in providing services related to vehicle refuelling. That was the basis on which we consulted and the basis on which the Bill was brought forward. What the amendments seek to do, at a very late stage in the Bill, is to broaden the scope very widely, beyond the initial areas we identified, to include a whole lot of others. We do not think that necessary because, as I said a moment ago, the market is responding. These charge points are already being provided in supermarkets and private car parks and the Government want to take powers only where absolutely necessary.

The locations we have chosen, the motorway service areas and the large service stations, are crucial in reducing range anxiety so that drivers can be confident in undertaking long journeys that they will be able to recharge easily and quickly en route. This is an issue that will remain for the longest journey, even with developments in battery technology, so it makes the most sense to ensure that the infrastructure for those journeys is provided for now and in the Bill. We expect that for many journeys range anxiety will fall away as the battery ranges of new electric vehicles increase, reducing the need for recharging every time an EV driver arrives at their destination. For all these reasons, the Government do not believe they need additional powers to regulate in this area.

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[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The Minister refers to long journeys but I think that the biggest market for this product will actually be in the inner cities, where people make short journeys and will want lots of these charging points. That is the reverse of the position taken by the Government. I do not want to drive 100 miles up the M1 and call in at every service station to have a recharge. One wants to use these vehicles in the inner-city areas. The Government seem to have it the wrong way round.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Many people already charge at home. If one looks around the streets just a stone’s throw from the Palace of Westminster one can see an increasing number of charge points, where people who do not have access to home charging can recharge their vehicle. You can recharge your vehicle in the car park at the other end of the building.

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[Lord Tope (LD)]

My Lords, I need to begin by declaring an interest that I did not have in Committee, because I think that this morning I was elected co-president of London Councils. No one has confirmed that yet and, as a Liberal Democrat, I know only too well not to take things for granted but, just in case I was successful in an unopposed election, I declare an interest as co-president of London Councils.

When we debated this in Committee, there was considerable concern about the apparent slow progress of London boroughs in acting on rapid charging units. It is therefore only fair that I put on record a response, although I do not want to dwell on it. I am told:

“The TfL transformation has impacted heavily on their ability to engage efficiently and consistently with the London boroughs and other stakeholders. We have been told by a number of boroughs that they had identified and submitted numerous locations for rapid charging points to TfL, only for the engagement to end, in some cases for months, with little or no information provided to the borough on whether the plans are progressing. In many cases local authorities have done all that is necessary and are waiting for TfL to complete the installation”.


I thought it was fair to put that on record, but I really do not want to get into the blame game—none of us do; we want rapid progress to rapid charging points. To that end, now that the London borough elections are out of the way as well, I am pleased to know that discussions have taken place and continue to take place between the GLA, TfL and London Councils. I think that I mentioned in Committee that London Councils had already established a sub-group of members to deal rapidly with these issues, and I am pleased to say that that is now progressing. As a consequence, I understand, TfL has said that it will not pursue its wish for permitted development rights—and that is welcome to the boroughs and to me, having had some considerable experience as a member of the GLA and as a London borough councillor. So far, all that is good.

I turn to Amendment 29. I seek clarification; I think that I understood the Minister in moving the amendment to say that the government intention was that it would apply only to large fuel retailers and service area operators—and the Minister nods in agreement with that statement. That is not what the amendment actually says. It could certainly be interpreted—and indeed I think that it says this—as relating to all roads in the key route network. Anyone reading the Bill would take that as applying to all roads in the key route network—and, indeed, the other amendments apply it to all other roads. I understand that the Government intend to come back with a further amendment on that.

I think that the Minister has clarified this issue in moving the amendment and in nodding in assent to my interpretation of it. However, if the Government are bringing back further amendments in respect of what is before us—Amendments 30A, 31 and 33A—would it not be better also to take back Amendment 29 and rewrite it clarifying what the Government want it to mean: that it applies specifically to those two areas, to area operators and large fuel retailers, rather than to all roads on the route network? That seems to me a very sensible thing to do, given that we are going to come back to the issue anyway at Third Reading next week.

Those are my points. I went through in Committee at some stage as to why it is not a good idea to give metro mayors the power over things which, certainly in London’s case, are properly the matter for the borough councils as both parking authorities and highway authorities. I do not need to repeat that; I could give many instances of how that has not worked and does not work—but I hope that we are not going to go down that route and that TfL is not going to pursue that route, as I hope is nobody else. When we come back to Third Reading, I hope that the Government will bring before us amendments that make the situation absolutely clear, and we can progress to actually getting on and installing rapid charging points.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, we may not be in the blame game, but the noble Lord has actually made a strong statement there about the response of TfL to the boroughs. I reserve my comments until, perhaps, we have had a response from those who almost stand in the dock—and perhaps I can raise my comments on Third Reading.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I apologise if there is any confusion on this issue. Obviously, having amendments to a government amendment can lead to confusion. As I said, we will bring forward a government amendment, taking on board other comments, and we will endeavour to do that as soon as possible.

On Amendment 33, on extending the power to local transport authorities, we have a number of combined authorities with a directly elected mayor which are designed to deliver their strategic transport priorities across their city regions. We support the devolution of powers to authorities when local decision-making will support improved delivery of transport outcomes. Mayoral combined authorities and the Mayor of London provide an appropriate level of democratic accountability and strategic oversight, which individual local authorities do not necessarily have. We have made the decision to devolve certain strategic powers to metro mayors and metro mayors only and, in this case, we do not think that we should extend them to other local transport authorities.

I will move on to the issues involved in Amendment 29. We discussed London councils, TfL and the mayor at length in Committee and I mentioned this in my opening remarks. We welcome the new taskforce which has been set up and is well represented by all these organisations. There is a real will to work together to deliver these rapid charge points. We are encouraged by that and look forward to seeing progress made.

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[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I want at this early stage to clarify something. Clause 12(1) refers to,

“a prescribed person or to persons of a prescribed description”.

Could that be HMRC?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am not sure whether that derives precisely from the amendment that I am debating, but it is a legitimate question, and I will seek to ensure that before we finish the noble Lord has a response to whether Clause 12(1) applies to HMRC. I am not quite sure why it would, because I do not see how it is directly involved in the power generation business. However, that is an off-the-cuff remark, and an authoritative response will arrive, I hope, before we complete the next group of amendments.

The DPRRC said:

“It is very significant that the powers conferred by clause 12 will allow requirements to be imposed on domestic consumers, enforceable by financial penalties. If, as stated in the memorandum, it is not the Government’s policy for the powers to be used in this way, then we recommend that this limitation should be set out on the face of the Bill”.


These amendments represent no change to policy but provide clarification of the Government’s intent. The transmission of anonymised data from domestic charge points will still be useful to predict demands on the grid, so the obligation could still apply to domestic charge points. However, we expect that this would be done by placing the requirements on organisations which have control of the relevant data: for example, charge point or energy companies.

The amendment demonstrates the Government’s intention not to place obligations on domestic users of charge points under this clause, and I hope that noble Lords are able to support it. I beg to move.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, Clause 12(1) states:

“Regulations may make provision for the purpose of ensuring the ongoing transmission of charge point data to a prescribed person or to persons of a prescribed description”.


Amendment 41 would insert the following:

“Regulations under subsection (1) may not impose requirements on owners or occupiers of domestic premises”.


There is a big hole in the Bill. I want to know where the Government will raise their revenue from when fuel duty is reduced. At the moment we raise £28 billion per annum. Over a period of years, as the use of electric vehicles increases, there will be a revenue loss. At the moment, the duty on petrol is nearly 60p a litre, on LPG it is nearly 32p, on natural gas it is 25p, and on diesel it is roughly the same as petrol.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders has expressed concern about this. Its view is that revenue will come through road pricing, which I think some people call “spy in the sky”. This whole question of road pricing has always worried me. However, there are other forms of raising the revenue. There is road fund licensing, which would be very expensive if it is substituting fuel duty, or a tax on the meter in the home. In the end, that is where they will have to raise the tax. However, I think that it would be based on the recorded usage on the meter at the residence. If it is based on tax according to the meter at the home, there will have to be two meters in every home—one for the domestic use of electricity and one for the raising of revenue to substitute for the loss of fuel duty—which means that there will be two separate rates. We are entitled to know the Government’s thinking on this. How do they intend to raise revenue in future to substitute for fuel duty losses? In the time that I have spoken, I am sure that the civil servants in the Box have provided the Minister with an answer to my question.

[Lord Lucas]

Is there some rule of law that implies at the end of Amendment 41 the words “in respect of those premises”? If there is, I would like to know what it is. If there is not, then all that a vast operator of charge points has to do is to buy one house. It will then be the owners of domestic premises and this clause will no longer apply to it.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I think that it would apply to it as an operator, although of course it would not apply to it as an owner of residential property. We have made it absolutely clear that it is the charge operator and not the consumer who has to supply the data. That is the thrust of these amendments. Perhaps I may reflect on what my noble friend has said and write to him, but we do not see this as a loophole whereby a charge operator can escape its obligation to notify the national grid or whoever of the volume of consumption at a particular charge point.

I commend the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, for his ingenuity in seeking to broaden a rather narrow debate about data from a charge point into one about the future taxation policy as the nation moves from petrol-consuming vehicles to electricity. I am sure that there are brains in the Treasury who are aware of the potential threat to their revenue, but it is essentially a matter for the Treasury and not for this Bill. The Bill is not about taxation. The policy scoping notes and the Explanatory Notes make it clear that it is not intended to use this clause for taxation purposes in any way. The noble Lord raises important issues but, with respect, they do not arise from this narrow group of amendments.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Why, then, have these regulations? As I understand it, it would not be possible to raise the revenue from the vehicular meter in the home in the event that Amendment 41 were in place.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

It is important that the electricity grid is aware of hot points in the pattern of consumption in order to plan ahead. Therefore, it needs the data to find out in what parts of the country demand is coming from and at what times of the day. The amendment would simply place the obligation clearly on the operator of the charge points and not on the domestic consumer.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Perhaps the noble Lord can answer the original question that I asked. Will HMRC be one of these groups of prescribed persons?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

No, I do not believe that it will be.

Rail Timetabling

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 4th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I agree entirely that the railways need to provide a service for the public and not be focused purely on profit-making. On the east coast line, a subject raised by the noble Lord, under public ownership the line contributed less to the taxpayer than it does currently. It is still a successful railway, with 92% customer satisfaction. Recently we set out a way forward through an operator of last resort ahead of the East Coast Partnership, and we think that that will be a success.

On industrial relations, I mentioned earlier the issue around working on rest days which has been a problem as regards training new drivers, which is part of the problem. The inquiry will look at what went wrong, why this has happened and what lessons we need to learn for the future. It will not look directly at industrial relations, but if it turns out that they were one of the causes, the inquiry will highlight that.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, Ministers who mess up normally do the honourable thing and resign. Have there been any conversations at all within Mr Grayling’s ministerial team about the possibility of him going?

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I can certainly confirm that there have not been any conversations around that.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak to the amendments to which I have lent my name, particularly Amendment 39. I begin by declaring my interest as an employee of the charity Environmental Defense Fund Europe, which works to find solutions for environmental issues including climate change and air quality.

Today, we turn to Part 2 of the Bill. We must begin by considering the important issue of whether the Bill, as drafted, is fit for purpose. The latest figures show that the UK is failing to get a grip on transport and emissions and is in danger of missing key climate and air quality targets. Meanwhile, we are spending public money and valuable parliamentary resource on debating a narrow and essentially toothless transport Bill. Transport now accounts for the biggest proportion of greenhouse gases in the UK at 26%, according to 2016 figures. While other sectors, such as the power sector, have been successfully decarbonising—spurring new investment, new supply chains, new jobs and more export potential—the transport sector is stuck in a time warp, seemingly oblivious to the fact that it needs to change to meet society’s needs in the 21st century. Those needs include cities free of pollution and a world not exposed to the existential risk of climate change.

Attempts have been made to get the vehicle manufacturing industry to change course. EU standards were imposed on emissions of greenhouse gases and air pollutants. However, rather than responding with investment in new zero-emission vehicles, manufacturers chose instead to sell us diesel cars and install cheating devices. Having been caught once, there is no real sign that, left to their own devices, they are prepared to make a fundamental change. New, innovative zero-emission models are prototyped and were announced with great fanfare, but there is almost no effort to market them and customers find themselves frustrated by long waiting lists as demand outstrips supply. Only strict new policies, introduced in China, have caused the OEMs to rethink their investment and marketing plans—but only for the Chinese market. In Europe, as people are ditching their diesel cars, the only option available to many is to return to petrol cars. That exacerbates climate change and fails to address other sources of air pollution associated with petrol, such as benzine.

Recent analysis of monthly car sales in the UK shows that although petrol and diesel sales have been roughly equal for much of this decade, petrol sales jumped up last month by around 20% while diesel sales fell by around the same amount. Zero-emission vehicles, in the form of battery electric vehicles, were just 0.5% of sales. Hydrogen-fuelled vehicle sales remained so low as to not feature in the analysis, which brings me to today’s amendments. It is abundantly clear that the Government do not yet have a cohesive strategy to bring about a clean transition in transport. There has been talk of a ban on the sale of internal combustion engines in 2040, but I am afraid that that is simply not good enough. Children and old people in our cities are regularly exposed to dangerous levels of air pollution and transport continues to use far too high a proportion of our carbon budgets; that threatens to further worsen our ability to meet our legally binding greenhouse gas targets, which the CCC—the Committee on Climate Change—has already said we are in danger of missing.

Here in London, where pollution is routinely the worst in the country, zero-emission vehicle sales are failing to keep pace with the rest of the country. They were at 38% of all sales in 2011, but have fallen to just 10% in 2017. We need action now, not in 22 years’ time. The Bill, which began life as the modern transport Bill and has been reincarnated as the Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill, addresses a far too narrow set of issues. With just enabling powers, it is an empty vessel with little to no impact, which the lightweight impact assessment makes abundantly clear.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, has sought to address one of the Bill’s clear failings by rightly pointing out that the Government’s approach to providing infrastructure for zero-emission vehicles needs to take into account hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles, which are mentioned in the Bill, but then there are no further references throughout. This is a potentially important category of vehicles that combines the efficiency of electric motors with hydrogen fuel to extend the range to hundreds of miles per journey. The Bill acknowledges that these are intended to be included under the definition of electric vehicles but fails to take the next step, which is to address the need to consider hydrogen refuelling infrastructure alongside electric charging infrastructure. We strongly support the noble Baroness’s amendments to address the issue and believe that if the Government cannot accept them then they should come forward with their own amendments to address the omissions in the Bill relating to hydrogen fuel vehicles.

Of course, what is really required is an entirely new clause devoted to other forms of zero-emission vehicles, including hydrogen—something that it is impossible to achieve with amendments alone. My Amendment 39, which would add a definition of zero-emissions vehicles to the Bill, relates to Amendment 98 on reporting requirements, which we will come on to. My purpose in tabling Amendment 39 is to try to link the Bill to the Government’s own manifesto commitment that by 2050 almost all cars and vans will be zero-emission vehicles. Achieving that goal will not happen by magic. It will not happen by stating that there could be a ban on internal combustion engines by 2040. It will happen only with a comprehensive policy framework that causes significant change to be delivered in the sector. The private sector must still be in charge of how that change is delivered, but it has shown itself to be incapable of driving the necessary change on its own. Government intervention will be needed. A comprehensive strategy and policy framework is sorely missing.

In the accompanying Explanatory Notes to the Bill there is a sentence that reads:

“The Bill … sets out the regulatory framework to enable new transport technology to be invented, designed, made and used in the United Kingdom”.


As it stands, there is absolutely nothing in the Bill that concretely contributes to the meeting of that goal. I and others in the House have sought to address the Bill’s manifold shortcomings but the narrow drafting has prevented us from tabling all but the most limited of amendments. Nevertheless, in the course of today’s debate I hope we can present our case to the Minister that the Bill is sadly a missed opportunity. There is a very real and urgent need for a much more complex approach to transport technologies. We need to see zero-emission fuels properly addressed, including hydrogen. We hope that the Government will be persuaded to come forward with their own amendments.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I will intervene briefly to make what I can only describe as a very trivial point. The Industry and Parliament Trust wrote to me and a number of my colleagues in the last few weeks telling us that there would be a breakfast meeting in the House on 1 May. I do not think that it realises that some of us simply cannot turn up for breakfast meetings on this extremely important issue. I raise this in the Chamber because it is important that it realises that these are problems for some Members. I would have attended because it is a fascinating area of development.

In particular, my interest is in the possibility of applying this kind of technology to lorries, which is what has happened in America. There have been tests. In so far as commercial vehicles are the major polluters, we should be doing everything possible to ensure that they are in the front line of the shift to this technology. As I said, I hope that the Industry and Parliament Trust has that in mind when it arranges these meetings in the future, because it means that some of us are denied the opportunity of the very excellent work that it does on many issues that come before Parliament.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I did go to that breakfast, so I have heard the hydrogen manifesto, as it were. I also attended a dinner last night arranged by ChargePoint and witnessed my first outbreak of range anxiety among electric car owners, who explained at some length and some volume that 120 miles with the lights on meant about 50 miles. The battery electric formula has still a long way to go. There are many areas where hydrogen might be used, the classic example being buses in London. Hydrogen needs greater emphasis in the Bill. I hope that the Minister will be able to bring forward amendments to produce a little more balance in the Bill so that it does not so blatantly presume a battery solution.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, the amendments in this group do two things. They change the word “may” to “must” throughout the Bill and they seek to introduce a time limit against which the Government must produce the regulations mentioned in the Bill. As I hope I was able to convey in my opening remarks, we feel that the Bill has not represented a judicious use of parliamentary time. It is incredibly lightweight. Even the things we are debating today are purely enabling powers: there is nothing in the Bill that compels anybody to do anything at any time. I would hate anyone to leave this process thinking that this is in some way a step forward in our becoming world leaders in energy transition; it is anything but. It could be accused of being simply window dressing.

It would be lovely for this Government to end this parliamentary Session by saying, “We have passed a Bill on autonomous, automatic or electric vehicles; aren’t we great?” Anyone who does not then look at the detail might think, “That’s very progressive of them; that sounds very green”, but in reality this is merely a collection of incredibly small, narrow measures which “may” be enacted, should the Secretary of State wish to do so: nothing in the Bill compels anyone to do anything. The intent of these amendments is to at least say that these regulations will be passed; otherwise, why are we here? What are we doing? We have no sight, at the moment, of any draft regulations. That is regrettable, given that the Bill started life as a modern transport Bill several years ago, possibly—I am losing track—yet we still have no detail from the department as to what the regulations will contain. It is simply not good enough, given the amount of money and resource that this is taking at a time when time is so scarce. Given the preoccupation with Brexit, it is, frankly, a dereliction of duty.

So we are seeking to add something to the Bill, otherwise it really is quite a pointless exercise. With Amendment 101 we are saying that the regulations really must be published within a year of the passing of the Bill. I hope there will then be a consultation process on the regulations and a year should be enough time for the Government to conduct that consultation and issue the regulations so that the industry knows where it stands and is able to move forward and make investments. I am sure it will not have gone unnoticed by many in this House that industry is having a rather tough time at the moment making investment decisions in Great Britain. The reasons are fairly obvious, but one thing we can do is give it some certainty around our leadership on green measures and the fact that we are intent on transforming our energy sector, including transport. That would, I hope, unlock further investment, as we have seen in Sunderland with Nissan, in the future of transport, not yesterday’s technologies. This is an important issue to discuss. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. I would really like to hear when we can expect draft regulations to be published and when we can see the detail. I would like to hear some reassurances that these are not just enabling powers but there is an intent to use them and to bring those regulations forward. I would like a sense of the timeframe.

It was stated in response to the previous debate that the legal advice is that there is sufficient clarity in the Bill for us to assume that hydrogen vehicles and hydrogen charging are included. Frankly, as with the rest of the Bill, I am not persuaded that that will pass muster. Investors do not have clarity from the Bill. If the enabling powers on the large fuel retailers are to be taken and enacted and we are going to require them to put in electric charging, are we also going to require them to put in hydrogen charging? Is this just an exercise in signalling or are we seriously going to do this? If we are, we need to see those regulations and they need to be changed to “must” rather than “may”, and we need to see a timeline; otherwise, nobody has any certainty and the industry will see investment drying up, as it is already. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. I beg to move.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, this is an extremely important amendment. I say that as a result of going to that dinner last night in the House of Commons which my noble friend on the Front Bench referred to. It was quite an extraordinary occasion. I did not realise how utterly disorganised this whole sector is. We had all the leaders from the industry around that dining table explaining to us what their problems were and in some cases being quite defensive about how they were able to handle those problems. I was shocked because I had never been to a parliamentary dinner where people had become so angry. There was one lady there from the Commons who was so angry that she could hardly contain herself. She had bought an electric-powered vehicle and wanted to sell it off because she was so dissatisfied with the service.

As I watched what was happening, it dawned on me that the people round the table were in two groups. There were those who wanted fiercer regulation, the backing of the law and help in ensuring that a structure was put in place. Others around the table were the deregulators, who did not want any sense of regulation and thought it could be left to the market. My conclusion after two and a half hours at this dinner was that the regulators were winning the discussion because it became obvious that unless there was greater regulation—and, I might say, real regulation, not guidance; there was even a fierce argument at the table about guidance versus regulation—very little would happen and, indeed, the industry could potentially be destroyed.

I went to that meeting last night thinking, “I’m going to have an electric vehicle in two or three years’ time”. I will not now, not after what I heard last night. Anyone listening to that discussion would have drawn the same conclusion. I have great hopes for the future of electric power. I spoke at Second Reading on this matter and strongly advocated the case. I passionately believe that we have to go down that route. But the state has to be prepared to intervene.

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, is concerned that it is all “may”—it may not happen, we do not know what will happen at what stage and there is no timetable. Ministers have to be much clearer and stronger in their resolution. It might well be that the discussions with the industry to date have been rather loose. They have not really tried to tie down Ministers in taking decisions on the way forward. Real decisions have to be taken soon; for example, on charging points. In the consultation document there was reference to inter- operability, easy public access, 24-hour service and maintenance, accountability of information on charging points, and standardisation of equipment. All these matters need dealing with now. We do not need delay. I say to the Minister, and I am not exaggerating: this industry could be gravely damaged unless there is a far more open discussion and real intervention by the Government to support it at an early stage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

I am pleased to move Amendment 44. The dinner that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, referred to was indeed a lively occasion—much livelier than the average dinner in this place, I believe, in its conversation and opinions. The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, is correct to say that the Bill lacks a spine. It is a collection of good ideas, probably, but it is not a strategy.

Addressing range anxiety among electric car owners is fundamental to the Government having a flawless strategy for encouraging people to buy these vehicles, and therefore for them to be manufactured. The whole population benefits from some of us buying electric vehicles. The amendments in this group relate to the availability of charging points and their ease of use, which is really the crux of the issue. Where they are placed is something we will come to in other groups of amendments, but this is a simple provision.

When you drive along and see on your in-car computer screen that there will be a charge point in 10 miles, it is at the very least supremely frustrating to find when you get there that it is not working. It can be a huge issue if you go on a long journey. I have told before in this House of the occasion when I went from one motorway services to another and another before I found a rapid charge point. I got a fast charge in the second and third ones, which was enough to send me to the next motorway services, but that is not the way to encourage people to own electric cars. It can be worse than really annoying. It can be a fairly dangerous situation to find yourself without any electricity in a lonely public car park, where there should be a charge point but it is not working. Charge points are almost always somewhere quite lonely. They are usually badly lit and, unlike getting petrol or diesel, you do not have a nice warm roof over your head. Standing out there in the rain and wind can be a pretty dispiriting process. When you get there, you therefore need the confidence that it will work.

This matter is easily addressed and I urge the Government to take these amendments seriously. I hope the Minister will accept them, or accept their principle and bring forward her own amendments. It is stating the blindingly obvious to say that you need some kind of measure in place so that when contracts are let, there is an obligation for these charge points to be working for a certain specified percentage of time, so that there is a commitment to repair them when they break.

The other side of trying to use a charge point is that almost all of them require you to have an app or be a member of a group. I think I have six or seven such apps on my phone, to be ready for all eventualities. If there are that number of apps on your phone, you do not use any one of them that often. This means that often, you turn up somewhere, only for the phone to tell you that you need to renew the app because you have not updated it and it will not work. My Amendment 46, which deals with,

“the use of contactless payment”,

seems the simple way to ensure that you have a straightforward way of paying that would be available to virtually everyone. We all know the effectiveness of contactless payment, which has worked brilliantly in beginning to replace Oyster cards in London. It has a simplicity about it.

I am not suggesting that these groups we join up to should not exist or that the apps could not be used. There could even be a financial or some other incentive for joining these groups, rather than having contactless payment. However, I am suggesting that there should be an obligation to make the charging points easy to use by ensuring that you have the fallback position, at the very least, of contactless payment. I will leave it there for now, and I beg to move.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I listened carefully to the Minister’s previous response. His argument seemed essentially to be based on the need to ensure that we do not move too fast because there may be technological developments, which would mean that we had perhaps taken the wrong decision in the regulations. This is in the event that they were—in his view, obviously—prematurely introduced.

Let us go through the amendment. It mentions:

“performance standards for public charging points”.

Why can we not set those minimum standards on the basis of the technology that applies now—not what may apply in future, but what applies now? Standards will not go down in future; they will go up. The next thing the amendment requires is,

“procedures to be put in place to repair faulty public charging points”.

What is wrong with that? We have charging points, and there is a problem with repair. Why can we not have regulations requiring the suppliers of such equipment to ensure that it is maintained properly? That does not require technological developments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I am very sorry that my noble friend and I missed that wonderful dinner, to which I think all noble Lords were invited last night; our invitations must have been lost in the post. The Government’s aim is to develop our infrastructure so that current and future drivers of electric vehicles can locate charging infrastructure that is affordable, efficient, reliable and easily accessible. The amendments, understandably, seek to improve availability and reliability.

Most government-funded charge points started out as being free to access, but payments have been gradually introduced over the years. Taking a payment in exchange for charging is a crucial step in the development of a long-term sustainable business model for charge point operators that will in turn lead to greater choice and improved future reliability of the network. Of course I agree that reliability is a critical issue, but we think that the market is developing to meet consumer expectations about charge point reliability. We welcome the fact that a number of charge point owners currently report on their level of reliability. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned Zap-Map.com, which incorporates a real-time feed that drivers can use to report on their recent charging experiences and report out-of-action charge points. As this market continues to develop, it is clear that operators will want their charge points to be functioning and accessible to attract customers, and indeed to receive payment.

Some operators are already providing information voluntarily, and as the market develops all may do so. However, should the Government need to intervene in this area, powers can be introduced under Clause 11. As currently proposed, this could require charge point operators to make reliability information available in open-source formats, which could be used to improve the consumer experience. Clause 11 also specifically mentions,

“whether the point is in working order”,

and making this information available will help to incentivise charge point operators to maintain working charge points and to ensure that they can be held to account by customers. I agree with the noble Baroness that for the infrastructure to work, the charge points have to work, and people need to feel confident that they will be able to charge their car—so I agree with the intent behind the amendments.

The noble Baroness also proposes an amendment on contactless card payments. Again, we absolutely recognise the importance of having easily available payment options to encourage the uptake of these vehicles. We have seen progress in this area. Since 2017 regulations have been in place for new charge points to ensure that they are available without the need for any form of membership. This applies to all new charge points from last November, and all existing charge points will need to meet that requirement by November this year. In the policy scoping notes contactless payment is one of a number of potential access or payment solutions, but we are not sure about mandating for this in primary legislation, which could risk forcing charge point operators to overhaul their entire network for a specific access method that may not be the preferred solution by drivers or industry, and may well be succeeded by another form of access. We want to consult on that. In advance of introducing any secondary legislation we will consult drivers and operators before proposing a minimum defined access method. If the preferred option is through contactless payment—which, I acknowledge, it may well be, so that people can easily pay for charging—that would be included in the regulations.

Amendment 50, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, rightly seeks to ensure that the Secretary of State has regard to innovation, customer choice and competition when bringing forward regulations under this clause. Those three things should always be at the heart of the Government’s policy-making, and will underpin any regulations brought forward under this, and indeed any other, clause.

As I have said, I agree with the intent behind all the amendments, and I will consider them further.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Before the Minister sits down, Clause 11 refers only to the provision of information. What we want is action. If no action is taken as a result of the provision of information, it is a waste of space. Why cannot some of the amendments be taken away by the Minister to her departmental officials before Report—at least those which are in no way affected by technological development—to see whether it might be possible to accept one or two of them? That would immediately affect people’s ability to secure the service that they expect when they call at one of these charge points.

[Baroness Worthington]

I reiterate that we must at least acknowledge that it is not good enough to have nearly one in 10 of these charge points in the vicinity of this House non-operational. Surely the Government should be doing more to investigate why that is the case and to ensure that regulatory powers are introduced to insist that they are maintained. It is just not good enough. We would not expect that to be allowed in any other form of public infrastructure. We are not asking for it to be in primary legislation, we are asking simply for power to be taken to make regulations to require that they be maintained. Given the Government’s apparent love of these enabling powers, I cannot see why they would not take one to require that the charge points are maintained. They are expensive and people rely on them.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I will briefly speak to the amendments in my name in this group. Consulting the sector, particularly the charge point providers and operators, is essential to ensure that the regulations we pass are fit for purpose. I am sure that that will be a component of the Government’s strategy, which we wait to see published. I look forward to hearing more about that from the Minister.

Amendment 87, which the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned, concerns a huge topic on data from electric vehicles. It is correct that we touched on it under the part of the Bill on automatic vehicles, but it is not present in this part. It would be good if the Government took this away and had a think about it. As a driver of an electric vehicle I often override the question at the start that says, “Do you want to send your data to the company that owns the car?”, simply because I think, “Why should I share it?”. However, there might be very good reasons why you want to share anonymised data to facilitate completely different ways of taxing people’s use of the vehicles.

In the Bill and certainly in the Government’s strategy we have to think about what will happen to the public purse when we move away from a transport system fed by fossil fuels, which generate huge amounts of revenue to the Treasury. As we come off that and go on to electricity we will not see the same revenues at all. Yet there might well be embedded into these technologies a new data source that would enable a different form of taxation based on road use. If we can come up with a taxation system that uses this data, perhaps on an annualised basis rather than the Government tracking your every move, we would be able to use it to inform a new form of taxation similar to the way we do an MoT at the end of the year, so you can pay taxes on that basis. There is an enabling aspect of the data as much as there is concern about privacy and use of data for purposes we were not aware of when we signed on the dotted line for different services.

This is a big topic. We probably cannot do it justice with just this amendment, but I will genuinely listen to and be very interested to hear from the Government about this topic and what they plan to do about it in the protective sense, but also in the use of it in creative ways to ensure we still collect revenue to fund our public services.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, just referred to the issue that I wanted to raise and which I raised earlier in Committee. There will potentially be a substantial drop in revenue. It is important that the Bill goes a little bit further than it does in Clause 12, which refers to a,

“prescribed person or to persons of a prescribed description”.

Why can the Government not be a little more frank? We basically mean the excise authorities—they are the people who want this information. Ultimately, that is the way the tax will be raised, unless we go down the route of satellite observation of your vehicle running along the motorway counting up how many miles you have done and where you went, which might worry a lot of people in a world of arguments over privacy.

I hope the noble Baroness’s comments will be followed up by the Minister. The Government might be prepared to go a little further on Report than the wording in Clause 12 and be absolutely frank. This is how it is being read outside: “This is the way we intend to raise taxes”, against the argument, when it starts, of whether to use something like satellites. Could Ministers be a little more frank and give us an undertaking that they might reconsider that position and the wording in Clause 12(1) on Report?

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for raising the importance of consultation prior to regulations being made using the powers covered by the Bill. It would of course be sensible, and indeed essential, for us to engage with a wide range of stakeholders to ensure that any regulations brought forward under the Bill are fair and proportionate while delivering the changes that will meet the needs of users and greatly improve the charging experience. It will be particularly important to consult those stakeholders that will be directly impacted by any of these regulations.

The Government have a set of good consultation principles—for example, that consultations should be targeted, clear and concise. They were published in 2016 and a copy was placed in the parliamentary Library. These principles were followed when consulting on primary legislation for the Bill and we will continue to follow them. They were updated in 2018 and can be accessed on the government website, GOV.UK.

Prior to introducing any regulations in this part of the Bill, we will engage with all appropriate stakeholders. This is already a requirement under Clause 16(3). Amendment 52, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, calls for consultation specifically with charge point operators and vehicle manufacturers. As we explained in the policy scoping notes, under Clause 9 the Government would consult widely with stakeholders on the issue of connection before introducing regulations. This consultation would of course include charge point manufacturers and operators, and vehicle manufacturers.

Amendment 67 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, also seeks to require the Secretary of State to publish draft criteria and definitions of large fuel retailers and service area operators at least six months before making the regulation. Any regulations brought forward under Clause 10 would be informed by consultation with industry, including fuel retailers, motorway service area operators, EV infrastructure providers and operators, and EV manufacturers and drivers, a point insisted on by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. She made a valid point that those currently in the petrol retailing business will want to ensure that they have a future. Their business is basically supplying energy to motorists. They will need to react if motorists start using a different form of energy. It would be in their interests to move in this direction.

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, raised the point that this might have implications for the Treasury. I will not go there. She also mentioned the possibility of road pricing—another sensitive political issue. I am not going to go there either, but they were valid points.

As explained in the policy scoping notes, the purpose of the consultation would be to seek industry’s views on the definitions of large fuel retailers and service area operators and any criteria for the locations at which fuel retailers will have to make specified provision.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Worthington]

My Lords, the amendments in my name in this group include Amendments 57—a rather lengthy amendment, I apologise for that— 74 and 76. Amendment 57 is an attempt to introduce some permitted development and infrastructure rights for the rolling out of charging infrastructure.

Subsections (1) to (3) deal with amendments to the town and country planning order to expand the permitted development rights that apply to charging points being installed off-street. They would remove the restrictions in the order that require that upstanding charging points must not exceed 1.6 metres in height and must be within 2 metres of a highway, and that wall-mounted electrical outlets must be within 2 metres of a highway. Obviously, these regulations were brought in to try to set parameters for the development of the sector. However, we feel that they are unnecessarily restrictive. In the spirit of the Government’s intent that we should not be regulating because it is a fast-moving environment, we should deregulate where we are actively holding back innovation. So we think that subsections (1) and (3) are essential and we would like to work with the Government on addressing them.

Subsections (3) to (10) relate to powers that the London mayor is seeking to address the fact that, as the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, mentioned, the installation of fast—sorry, rapid—chargers on borough-controlled land is falling well behind that on TfL-run land and highways. The table is very interesting. Not only does it show that out of 103 rapid chargers installed, merely four are on borough-controlled land, it gives a fantastic insight into who is moving forward on rapid chargers. I note that the City of London, Kensington and Chelsea, Newham, Lambeth, Bromley and Barking have installed precisely zero, on either TfL or borough land. There is obviously some patchy deployment here in London.

The reason we have taken the GLA and TfL briefings on this issue very seriously is that cities are really significant. Not only are they having to deal with the air-quality impacts of the current use of combustion engines, they do and should have oversight of how this can be rolled out in a strategically planned way. But at the moment, although they are working relatively well with boroughs on the slow and fast chargers, on the rapid chargers they tell us that there is up to 10 weeks of delay before they can get permission to install. Looking at the table, they are simply not succeeding in some places.

The reason I think cities are so significant—I just saw this today on Twitter—is that 21% of global sales of EVs can be accounted for by six Chinese cities. If we think we are in any way leading this, we have to take a long, hard look and be honest about the fact that we are not in the lead. We are trailing well behind China on this issue. Of course, it was air quality and climate change that spurred China into action. It has, through a series of very successful policies—layers of policies—managed to clean up the air of its major cities. There is a lot we can learn from there.

Proposed new Subsections (11) to (14) of this rather lengthy amendment seek to introduce a concept of charging infrastructure rights—wayleaves, essentially—that is intended to mirror those granted under the Digital Economy Act 2017 for telecommunications. This is a significant issue for the country. We need to get this right. As we recognised when we granted these wayleaves for telecoms, this is the sort of thing the Government should be doing to ease this new investment in infra- structure. We look forward to hearing from the Minister on that concept. We have drafted these subsections drawing on the example of the Digital Economy Act, so they are probably not perfectly drafted. I would very much welcome sitting down with the Minister and officials to discuss this further.

The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is unable to attend so I have agreed to speak to Amendment 74 on his behalf. This is an interesting and important issue. I have read somewhere that on average a car spends about 80% of its time parked at home. If you happen to be lucky enough to have a garage or off-street parking, you can move to an electric vehicle relatively straightforwardly, but not all of us live in that situation. Certainly in urban environments it is less common. You may well be in a leased environment or a block of flats and wish to have infrastructure installed to enable you to move to an electric vehicle, but it is very difficult. Even if leaseholders say that they will pay for the full cost of installing a charge point, and even if it is a simple plug, they often find that their landlords are unwilling to do it—why would they? It is an extra hassle and they are not required to meet that need.

In Amsterdam, I think, they have found that a demand-led rollout of this infrastructure has really helped speed it along. That means that if a customer has a car on order, they write to request that the charging infrastructure be fitted and it is then a requirement that that demand be met. That ensures a linking up of infrastructure with cars to use that infrastructure. This is a really important issue, and I would certainly welcome more thoughts and further consultation on how this can be made to work.

Similarly, Amendment 76 is about making the Bill future-proof, enabling us to take powers to require future residential and non-residential buildings with a defined number of parking spaces to have the necessary charge points or pre-cabling to allow for the installation of charge points. This is anticipating that we will get to the numbers the Government say they wish to get to. The Committee on Climate Change says that 60% of all car sales in 2030 need to be electric or plug-in hybrid, so it will not be too long before we get there, and we need to be planning for this now. We hope this will ensure that new and refurbished buildings are EV-ready. If a car spends 80% of its time parked at home, as has been said, it really is important that we do this. A car spends a further 16% of the time parked at another destination, so having the ability to put this into non-residential buildings is equally important. I hope that that covers everything.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I wonder if I might take the Committee back to some elementary aspects here. Under my apartment in London, there is a garage and in the bay next to me there is a plug in the wall, with a wire leading into a motor car. It is an electric car being charged. On the previous amendment, I argued the need for the Government to be far more open about the question of taxation in future, in substitute for the revenue loss arising from less reliance on the fuels of today. We cannot raise revenue in conditions where people simply stick a plug in the wall. There has to be a meter.

Amendment 76 goes on to refer to regulations. I presume it is implied that these are building regulations. I am not sure but I think that is the suggestion. Perhaps in placing this requirement in the building regulations, we should set a requirement to fit a meter even though it will not be raising revenue in the early years. The reason I say that is only because of my experience over smart meters. Are we not changing the rules in some ways on those, because we have learned? We are almost in a period of regret, as we have been discussing in Committee in recent weeks. We think, “If only we’d known that a few years ago, we might have done it in a different way”.

All I am suggesting is that in the event that we were to introduce regulations—building regulations, I presume—we should be thinking at that stage in terms of a meter. You would not just have your plug and socket; you would have a plug, a meter and a socket, but in the early stages the meter would be registering only for your information. The other advantage of it is this. In the event that you have a meter of that nature, with a particular socket, you can be sure that you can raise the revenue by charging a higher rate for the metered electricity than the rate charged for electricity going generally into the residence. There would have to be a differential rate to ensure that you could raise the revenue and you would have to have the equipment. I say: let us go from our experience with smart meters in another context.

Perhaps I may move on to Amendment 74, which has just been spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. Can I express a reservation, since she asked for comments, on subsection (2) of that proposed new clause? It says:

“Any leaseholder who pays for a charge point to be installed as in subsection (1) retains ownership of the charge point”—


they retain ownership of it—

“and all the associated works that the leaseholder has paid for when the lease ends, but the landlord may acquire ownership of them by paying the leaseholder one sixtieth of their cost for each month that remains of the five years since they were installed”.

What happens if you are in a small block with a shared freehold, and someone puts in a meter? Are we saying that the balance of the freeholders have to pay to the person who installed a meter money to compensate them for the fact that they have left the lease at an earlier stage? That would be an unfair imposition on the balance of the leaseholders—if they have a share of the freehold, they are basically leaseholders. They might have 99-year leases but they are leaseholders. If I might say so, that provision is wrong. I think that if you have put in the equipment, you do so at your risk and if you leave, you lose.

I have a suspicion about what would happen. In the flat that I own near to the property of the noble Lord, Lord Young, we have a committee arrangement and I can imagine circumstances in which some members of that committee might say, “I’m sorry but we don’t want to pay to compensate you when you leave for equipment you’ve put in”. I do not know whether it might cost hundreds or thousands of pounds. All I am saying is: let us be a little careful about that provision. I do not want to rubbish the noble Baroness’s amendment because the rest of it is excellent but I would enter that minor concern.

[Lord Tope (LD)]

My Lords, as this is my first contribution to the Bill, I should say that my knowledge of, and interest in, electric vehicles is more limited than most of the Committee here. However, I suspect that I might have been the first to drive an electric vehicle when I drove from this House back to the London Borough of Sutton, at least 20 or 25 years ago, and came last in a race with our two MPs. One was riding a bicycle and the other was travelling by public transport. The reason for that was nothing to do with electric vehicles; it was to do with traffic on a Friday, which affects electric vehicles as much as every other car. Nevertheless I caused great amusement by arriving some time after our two Members of Parliament.

I am here to speak, in particular, to Amendments 54 and 57. I agree with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, said about his amendment, and very much with the sentiments behind the amendment spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. My interest in this—and, indeed, the reason why I was driving the electric car—is that for the 13 years that London was without a strategic authority I was leader of a London borough council, and therefore actively involved in trying to run Greater London without a strategic authority. After 13 years I stepped down as leader—voluntarily, I might add—to stand for election to the Greater London Authority, then about to come into being, and spent eight years as a member of that authority.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tope]

I well understand the difference here, and the fact that we are talking about rapid charging. If I misspoke, I am sorry: I am referring to the amendment and the proposal to give TfL permitted development rights. I think that the noble Baroness is referring to the mayor’s draft transport strategy, which was indeed widely consulted on and widely welcomed, in work with the boroughs.

Be that as it may, the fact is that the 32 London boroughs and London Councils are strongly opposed to giving TFL permitted development rights. This is a very bad way to start on what we all want to achieve, which is the rapid implementation of rapid charging points. If it is to work effectively, it has to be a co-operative partnership between the GLA, TFL and the London boroughs.

I quote from what I believe is a public letter dated 29 March from the chair of London Councils’ transport and environment committee to the Mayor of London. He begins:

“London boroughs share your enthusiasm and urgency to tackle the poor air quality experienced by Londoners and therefore look to ensure that there is an efficient and effective network electric vehicle charging infrastructure to aid this”.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Can we clarify the position? Are they opposing rapid charging arrangements?

[Lord Tope]

No, not they are not opposing rapid charging points at all. Quite the opposite—they are very enthusiastic supporters of them. This is my view, not one that has been expressed to me, but one reason that there has been so little installation is that most of the resources that come to boroughs for this comes through what is known as LIP funding which, if I remember rightly, stands for “local implementation strategy”. All the funding comes from the Mayor of London and there has been no provision in my borough and, I think, many others, for the installation of rapid charging points. But we are getting into more detail than I wanted to at this stage, because I know we are moving quickly, and I want us to move on.

I go back to the letter that I was quoting from London Councils. The chair goes on to say:

“We recognise that engagement between TFL and the boroughs on rapid chargers has not been as effective as it could be and are eager to address this issue collaboratively to enable better delivery”.


He goes on to speak about one measure taken, which was to establish,

“a cross party sub-committee solely focused on rapid charging infrastructure. Its task is to enhance the provision of rapid charging points in London across boroughs”,

and to work together with TfL, the GLA and other interested parties. He concludes:

“Collaboration between boroughs, TfL and the GLA is what will deliver an effective and efficient network of charging infrastructure in London”.


I wholly endorse that sentiment, and I hope that all of us on all sides who wish for success here will also endorse it.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)]

My Lords, this is a wide-ranging group of amendments and I shall aim to address all the points raised, so I am afraid that I shall have quite a bit to say.

On permitted development rights and expansion, as the noble Baroness noted, it is already allowed through town and country planning, which allows permitted development rights for one electric vehicle charging point per parking space, public or private. The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, mentioned specific restrictions on that, which were introduced into the permitted development right to protect the environmental amenity of an area—hence the planning permission is needed. However, there is no height limit for charge points installed by or on behalf of local authorities, which are able to consider the impact of a charge point at a particular location, as well as on the safety of road users and pedestrians, and any other local considerations. That is what we want to bear in mind.

In general, the intention of these amendments is an important consideration. Given the change in technologies, it is important that the Government ensure the existing flexibilities and terms of permitted development rights and that they remain fit for purpose—and certainly deregulate where we should. So I shall take the issue away and consider it further with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government before Report.

On permitted development rights in London and TfL, my noble friend Lord Borwick raised the proposal to give TfL or the Mayor of London permitted development rights to install rapid charge points. Again, we agree with the intention behind aspects of this amendment; the installation of charging provision in London is crucial to help to ensure that air quality and climate change targets are met and, despite some excellent progress by local boroughs, many more charge points will be needed. While we recognise TfL’s frustration at not being able to make quick improvements to a road network that it may be responsible for, it is right and proper that it works collaboratively with local boroughs to consider the local democratic process.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Do we know how many of these rapid charge points boroughs have actually been introduced up to now?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Worthington]

The table that has been circulated indicates that, of 103 rapid charge points in London, four have been installed on borough land.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

It that not in fact our case? They are doing nothing.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I think we all agree that insufficient progress has been seen; we absolutely need to take action on that, but we need to consider the local democratic process. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, spelled out very clearly the opinion of London Councils on this, and we want to see TfL and London Councils working in partnership to deliver what we need, ideally without the need for legislative intervention. We are working with TfL, MHCLG and GLA colleagues on this collaborative approach. A new governance framework has been set up, and there is a cross-party subgroup tasked with addressing these specific issues. The mayor is also creating a new electric vehicle infrastructure task force for London, in which the Government have been invited to participate as a member.

These non-legislative solutions have recently been introduced and are designed to ensure that this collaboration happens. I appreciate, however, that my noble friend’s amendment has a time clause in it, which is an interesting consideration. As the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, says, these are slightly dangerous waters, but we will certainly go away ahead of Report to see if there is more we can do to reach an agreement, or to broker a deal, between the local councils and TfL on this important issue. As I say, I think we have good bodies in place now to work on this, but it will require them to work together. We will come back to this after we have taken it further with them. I thank my noble friend for his invitation; it sounds a lovely idea. Perhaps we could do that after we get this Bill through to celebrate.

My noble friend and others raised the issue of rapid chargers on the Parliamentary Estate. As I mentioned at Second Reading, the authorities are currently carrying out a project to fit the underground car park in the Commons with 80 charge points, although, at the moment, they are not planned for our own Lords car park. Though I can reassure noble Lords that I am pushing on this issue and—hot off the press—I hear that the House authorities are still making a decision on whether to take forward the charge points. They are working with the planning and design authority that is installing the charge points in the House of Commons. I hope to come back with some positive progress, along with a timetable, on Report. If we do not see that positive progress, I will be meeting with the Parliamentary Estate authorities to understand why.

On the removal of charge points, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, raised an interesting proposal. On local highways, the authorities obviously have the ability to require the installation of charge points or prohibit their removal. For other public locations, it is an interesting point. I understand the issue she raises: after installation, we do not want to see them rapidly uninstalled. This consideration is best left to the market and the host sites that have installed the infrastructure. In the same way that a supermarket, for example, should not need planning permission to install a charge point, it might be tricky if it then needs planning permission to take it out again. I also have some concerns that it could have an unintended consequence for businesses or host sites, which may be put off installing infrastructure if they would be unable to remove it in the future. But I understand the point that the noble Baroness makes, especially when grants are involved, so I will take that away and consider it further.

I turn to wayleaves and charging infrastructure rights. Wayleaves are sometimes required for rapid charge point installations that require a new connection to the grid or a grid upgrade, where cables need to be laid across third-party land. Currently, the wayleave agreement is voluntary for the third party who owns the land and there is no obligation to accept the wayleave. In cases where an agreement for a wayleave cannot be reached, the Electricity Act 1989 provides the installer with statutory powers on which it can call if no alternative solution, such as changing the cable route, can be found, so a statutory application can be lodged to the BEIS Secretary of State to award the installer a necessary wayleave. These amendments raise an interesting point, which we have not consulted on yet. We have concerns that the amendments as drafted do not allow for the private rights of the owner of any third-party land to be taken into account, or to allow for any potential environmental effects to be considered. Because this involves private land access rights, we think that we need to seek more evidence and consult a wide range of stakeholders. However, I will take the issue away and discuss it further with ministerial colleagues in advance of Report.

On housing issues and the future-proofing of new homes and developments, the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Worthington, are right to highlight the importance of ensuring that new developments include provision for the necessary charging infrastructure. I am pleased that the Government’s National Planning Policy Framework that has recently been consulted on considers the same policy. When developing local plans, it sets out that local authorities must fully consider the inclusion of charge point infrastructure in new developments. The proposed NPPF envisages that applications for developments should be designed to enable charging of plug-in and other ultra low emission vehicles in safe, accessible and convenient locations. It also sets out that, when setting local parking standards for residential and non-residential development, policies should take into account the need to ensure an adequate provision of spaces for charging plug-in and other ultra low emission vehicles. We think that the NPPF is the right place for such changes to be introduced, so that local considerations can be taken into account by local authorities, and therefore we do not think that we should include such provision in the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised an interesting point about smart meters, which I shall take back and consider.

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, suggested the introduction of regulation to ensure that leaseholders are not denied the ability to install charging infrastructure. Of course, where agreement can be reached between leaseholders and the landlord, the charger will be installed, but there may well be scenarios where one or the other will not agree for whatever reason—as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, highlighted—such as on who owns the charger, who is responsible for its maintenance and the cost of the electricity where a communal supply is involved. The amendment raises an interesting point, but we need to ensure that, while leaseholders are not denied the ability to install a charge point, we consider those other issues fully, such as the rights of freeholders and landlords.

[Baroness Sugg]

The noble Baroness makes a fair point. The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government is doing a review of the relationship between leaseholders and freeholders, so I shall ask whether that might be an appropriate place to consider this issue. I have heard what the noble Baroness said, and I will take that back.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Given that such a review is going on, could the Minister drop us a note to tell us whether this suggestion will be considered?

[Baroness Sugg]

I certainly will. I will need to go back and discuss whether we can include this suggestion. I am not sure that we will go as far as the noble Baroness would like us to on that, but I will certainly get a conclusion on that and come back to noble Lords.

Finally, on the amendment that would ensure the provision of ducting and precabling infrastructure for new residential and non-residential buildings, in the industrial strategy, published last November, we committed to update building regulations to mandate that all new residential developments must contain the enabling cabling for charge points in homes. That will be an important step in future-proofing new homes and avoiding more costly retrofitting. For non-residential buildings, the NPPF will ensure that local authorities consider the need for adequate charging provision in developing their local plans. Before Report we will consider whether that is sufficient or whether we can go further.

Given these reassurances, I hope that the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Worthington]

In the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, I shall speak to Amendment 59 and the associated amendments in this group. Here we turn to Clause 10 concerning large fuel retailers and the desire of the Government to take powers that may require them to install certain forms of charging infrastructure. We have debated whether they may be electric or hydrogen, and I do not think I feel 100% confident that this clause is sufficiently clear for retailers to know what we mean by charging, and we will need to come back to that issue before Report.

The amendments seek to take the principle of taking an enabling power to require charging and fuelling facilities to be installed and broadens it to include other destination facilities. As we have discussed, for 16% of the time cars are parked in destinations where they could be charging. Those destinations include supermarkets, public car parks, airports, train stations and so on. When we met the Minister and her officials, there was a sense that there is a clear market failure in the category of large fuel retailers which they feel they need to address. If that is the case, it should not be just an enabling power but a power, but perhaps there was a feeling that there is not sufficient evidence of similar market failure in these other areas. However, there may be in the future. If we are proceeding on the basis of enabling powers and not taking powers, I see no reason why we should not include in the Bill a wider power that would allow us to broaden this.

We have to think seriously about the scale on which we are trying to effect change here. This is not about a couple of charging points dotted around the country; this would be a wholesale shift and we want to be at the forefront of it. I feel that wider powers ought to be taken in this area. It is quite unusual for the Lords to say that, but we should look at this again before Report.

I am perfectly happy to concede that should we broaden the powers in Clause 10 and apply the powers set out in Amendment 75 to designated premises for metropolitan mayors, that might be too broad. This is definitely not perfect drafting and perhaps Amendment 75 should not have been included in this group, but it makes quite an important point.

I want to spend a moment reflecting on the role of cities. Chinese cities are driving the revolution in transport and forcing European car manufacturers to change their investment strategies. But people in Europe will not change their strategies unless we ask them to. OEMs treat the world as three separate markets: the US, Europe and Asia. In Asia, they will sell the cleanest cars because they are required to, by policy. Who knows what they will do in the US, because they are currently lobbying to get rid of all the car sellers. In Europe, they may well stay with their strategy, which is to sell everyone diesel and use cheating devices. Let us be honest, they have more or less got away with murder in taking a standard that was passed to try to clean up tailpipe emissions and cheating. Yet here we are, politely asking them if they would mind moving to a zero-emission vehicle manufacturing model. Some of them will try to move but they will certainly follow policy, which is in place in Asia—where they are responding to it—but not in Europe. As we think about our life beyond Europe, it is essential that we put some clarity into this market so that people in Britain can invest and be confident that there is a market here to sell to.

Cities are integral to this. Enabling cities and metro mayors to play a bigger part in this would help to match what China is currently doing so successfully. I want to give the example of Shenzhen, which has just passed new regulations stating that, by 1 May, all new light-duty trucks will be electric vehicles, by 1 July, only EVs will be allowed to be registered as ride-hailing vehicles and, by 31 December, all remaining taxis will be EVs. That is the luxury of a slightly non-democratically planned economy, so I am not suggesting that we go there, but as we take back sovereignty, we ought to put it to good use. This is an attempt to look at the role that metro mayors can play. Urban areas are specifically well suited to this. They suffer the most from air pollution and they have the densest urban geography, which enables electric vehicles to work very well for residents.

Amendment 75 is intended to ensure that metro mayors are given the power they need to enable this transition. I know that this has been led by TfL and the Mayor of London, but other metro mayors fully support these powers, as they all face similar challenges. With that, I beg to move.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I want to take us back to Clause 10(2)(a), which states:

“Regulations under subsection (1) may, for example—(a) require large fuel retailers or service area operators to provide public charging points”.


In the real world, can we imagine a motorway service station that would follow this? A stream of cars would come in and get to the forecourt—where there is an existing garage with petrol pumps—and, somewhere in that area, we have to facilitate perhaps hundreds of cars charging at the same time. Some of them might be on rapid charging units for as much as 20 minutes, which is why I say that there will be a lot of vehicles there. There may well not be enough space, so we would be looking at adjacent land. We know that the public interest is served when that adjacent land is made available.

How will we acquire that land? If we want a reservoir, an airport or a railway track, we have compulsory purchase powers; however, some people might argue that using them to aid the financial arrangements of a private operator running a service station is unreasonable. So what will we do to ensure that the additional land, adjacent to these facilities on motorways, is made available for the substantial number of rapid charging units required? I see no requirement to do that in the legislation. We know that it must be introduced by regulations. Departmental officials should be thinking through the consequences of this, to see to what extent the state can intervene to ensure that adjacent land is available. I have referred to service stations, but this could happen for land adjacent to other facilities, such as railway stations—although that is probably different because such land is probably used otherwise for housing development.

It would carry a far higher price than agricultural land surrounding a service station on a motorway, which might be worth only £10,000 of £15,000 an acre. Might Ministers consider asking officials to consider the implications of that provision in this legislation?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, in response to that, I hope that people who run petrol stations and service stations will have redundant space where the diesel pumps were. We all know that if you own a petrol station and you close it down, that land has to lie vacant for many years because of pollution concerns. Therefore, it is of great interest to those who currently run service stations to make them continually financially viable. That means they will have to adapt. That is my logic on that.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I hesitate to intervene immediately after speaking myself, but the pump area is a very small amount of space. We are talking about a space capable of taking maybe hundreds of vehicles, all on charge for 20 minutes to half an hour.

[Baroness Randerson]

Service stations also have car parks. That is where the charging points are at the moment. There is a possibility there.

That leads very neatly to Amendment 72 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, which I have signed. It seeks to specify once again some general ideas on the sort of facilities that would usefully be used to accommodate charging points. It is important to bear in mind that there is an acknowledgement in proposed new subsection (2)(b) of local authorities’ important co-ordinating role. They have a key part in the chain of strategic provision here.

Proposed new subsection (3) lists a selection of places where we might find charge points. Just to illustrate how subtle this art is, proposed new paragraphs (a) and (b)—“supermarket car parks” and “public car parks”—would be suitable for the provision of only rapid charge points, because no one wants to spend three and a half hours in a supermarket while your car charges, whereas airport or train station car parks could usefully use fast chargers. The Government have to look at this strategically and in detail to make sense of the provision. It needs to be worked out in co-ordination with the industry to make sure the proposals are practical. I am particularly keen on the concept of using supermarket car parks; I have seen this frequently in France. I do not often shop at Waitrose but I do on one particular journey because it has a charger. It is a very useful opportunity.

I will briefly respond to what the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said and put a different point of view on Amendment 75. I am not opposed to the idea of giving additional powers. What concerns me is that the vast majority of people in Britain do not live in mayoral authorities. I come from Wales, where there are no elected mayors as a matter of policy. Therefore, it strikes me that there is a danger of creating second-class citizens in cities, towns and rural areas that do not have elected mayors. They will limp along behind with less provision for people who want to buy electric cars. We should have solutions that benefit everyone and not just people who live in one sort of authority.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, spoke about space at major fuel retailers. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is right that they often have hundreds of car parking spaces, and that is where we envisage that the charging will happen. The department has no plans to look at purchasing land around such locations. We think that the regulations would need to exclude locations where it is not possible or sensible to provide electric vehicle infrastructure, as we have set out in the policy scoping notes. Of course, space is an important consideration, which is partly why we have identified major fuel retailers as the right place to start.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I am sorry to go back to car parks, but when I travel on motorways I often find the car parks are full. They cannot be used for both parking and for people to put their vehicles on them to charge. In certain conditions, there may simply be insufficient spaces on the motorways because the car parks are heavily used.

[Baroness Worthington]

This is where the speed of the charger is important. I routinely use a rapid charger at motorway stations, because it is a 25-minute thing where you go and get a cup of coffee, come back out and move on. There can be a rapid turnover in those slots, and it fits very well with the service station model used on motorways.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Equally, I was asking at the dinner last night about the cost of these chargers. Rapid chargers are £40,000 a piece; we are talking a lot of money. It may be that part of the provision will not be the rapid chargers.

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I think that space will be limited at some of these destinations, but they have been identified as the ideal place to start putting in this infrastructure, which is what we are doing. This is the start of the process. We will look at how effective it is, how many charge points are put in and whether they are rapid charge points.

On whether it may be appropriate to require the installation of charging facilities in future at other locations such as supermarkets, railway stations and private and public parking facilities, the vast majority of electric vehicle drivers choose to charge their cars at home at night, but we need appropriate and adequate provision of public charging if we are to see as many electric vehicles as we want in the coming years. However, we do not believe that regulating for provision will always be the right approach. It is a powerful tool, but other levers can be used. We have many grant schemes and policy measures to support the installation of charge points at a range of locations, including many of those listed in the amendment. For example, we have already committed to providing greater emphasis on electric charging at rail stations in our franchising process. Through a train station scheme, Plugged-in Places and the public sector estate scheme, more than 7,000 charge points have been funded in a wide range of locations. Planning policy—in particular, the NPPF— is proving to be an important tool in leveraging infrastructure, future-proofing new developments and ensuring that local authorities consider charge points in their plans.

Proposed changes to the NPPF would require that when local parking standards are set policies should always consider the need for adequate provision for charging EVs. The London Plan is a good example of where there has been a big impact and where the NPPF has encouraged local authorities to take an ambitious approach. In the London Plan, the GLA mandates that developments in all parts of London ensure that for every five spaces one must have an active charge point and one must have enabling cabling for future use to encourage the uptake of EVs.

We have also introduced enhanced capital allowances, a tax relief for companies to support the development and installation of recharging equipment. The first-year allowance of 100% allows businesses to deduct charge point investments from their pre-tax profits.

Specifically on Amendment 73, we have also already announced that we will update building regulations to require enabling cabling in all new residential housing developments, as we discussed earlier. In addition, we offer grant funding for private facilities, through our workplace charging scheme, to support installation; it is working particularly well for electric fleets. As a result of these measures, and because of the opportunities in this new market, we are seeing the private sector taking the lead and chargers are going in at destinations including car parks and supermarkets. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, gave the excellent example of going to Waitrose because it has a charge point. We are seeing growing numbers of EV drivers using such shops in order to use the charge point.

So we are making good progress on electric vehicle charging points; we have seen 500 charge point connectors installed in the country in just the last 30 days. A lot of companies and destinations throughout the country have ambitious plans to install charging infrastructure. Chargemaster is investing heavily in providing EV charge points at key strategic locations, such as hotels, sports clubs and shopping centres and is planning an additional 2,000 units. Asda has charging facilities at more than 100 of its stores. Even the National Trust is installing charge points at places such as Hadrian’s Wall and the Giant’s Causeway. Health clubs and all sorts of other places are doing it too. So we think that the market is working here. My ministerial colleagues meet regularly with the charge point industry—although not at last night’s dinner—and they are confident that we are making progress in that space.

One of the main reasons for the decisions of major fuel retailers is range anxiety, as we have discussed previously. Of course, we need sufficient charging infrastructure on our motorways and major roads so that people will travel longer distances. When we consulted on the Bill, we determined that it was most appropriate to mandate provision at those sites that are crucial in reducing range anxiety. We believe that the Government should regulate only where there is a specific need and not where we are confident that market forces will deliver the necessary infrastructure to meet the needs of EV drivers. Again, I heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said on that.

Amendment 75 is an interesting amendment to enable metro mayors to designate premises under Clause 10, which would allow them to use powers in their local area at a timetable of their choosing. In our conversations with metro mayors it was a priority ask of theirs. As the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, cities and regions play a hugely important role in local environmental strategies and dealing with the air quality challenges they face. Of course, charging infrastructure will need to be part of these strategies. There are some considerations around such an amendment and we need to give it due care and attention. We want to ensure that any regulations or requirements that are introduced receive the proper scrutiny of Parliament. We will be defining large fuel retailers and setting out appropriate circumstances for charge point installation in future regulations. Of course, those regulations will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny; we want to ensure that any powers afforded to mayors or combined authorities in this area can only be exercised within those clear definitions and a defined remit.

Given that these powers are not UK-wide but region-specific there is a possibility that imposing this requirement could encourage the relocation of petrol stations outside of the mayoral area should the requirement be disproportionate. As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, we also need to make sure that it will not mean that areas that do not have metro mayors lose out. As noble Lords will be aware, metro mayors have different devolution deals—that is also something we will need to consider further. We will also need to consider others in the area with transport responsibilities, such as boroughs and local highways authorities, but we think there is merit in considering aspects of this approach. We would not want it to be wider in scope than the locations as currently defined in Clause 10— I was pleased to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, mention that. Local authorities have voiced concern about powers being widened to include locations managed by them, but I commit to taking this issue away and considering it before Report. On that basis, I hope the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I support the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. I will bring in another issue, which we have hardly referred to. We have talked a lot about fast and rapid charging, and so on, but until now we have not talked about the key issue of interoperability. I take this opportunity, using the excuse of this group of amendments, to make the point to the Minister that the reason why the Committee has not mentioned it is that the Government did, and we agree with them. It may feel as if we have ignored it but it is a really key issue.

At the beginning of today’s debate, I talked about the frustration of getting to a charging point that was not working, as did other noble Lords. However, the same frustration is felt when you get there and it does not fit your make of car. This has also been a major own-goal by the motor industry. I hope that the industry will read the proceedings of this place in Hansard because it is undermining its own efforts with electric vehicles by hanging on to different and distinct forms of charging. There really needs to be a cross-industry meeting to reach an agreement on where it is going. We will otherwise end up with something rather like the VHS versus Betamax situation, which wasted an awful lot of consumers’ and manufacturers’ money. It always amazes me when manufacturers do not realise this pretty early on. It has taken Apple an awfully long time to realise that it just irritates us if every phone or computer we buy needs a different form of charging lead.

I hope that the Government will keep interoperability at the top of their requirements in these regulations. I simply want to underline the key message in these amendments, which is that we have to have sufficiently speedy and robust charging points for them to be useful in many circumstances.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I think I heard everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said when she set out the various levels of equipment and the capacity of each level to charge. I am sure she will know the answer to this but I do not, and I am sure that the public outside who might follow our debate do not know the answer. When commercial operators apply to fit this equipment, who is to determine the capacity of the equipment that they are going to fit? If it is left to the market, those in the market might say, “I’m not going to pay £40,000 for a rapid charger. I’m going to put in a slower charger that might take three hours. I can still make as much profit as I want out of that facility”. However, that might not serve the public interest. It might be that the public interest is served only when a rapid charger, or a series of rapid chargers, is put into a location. What is the framework within which these decisions will be taken? I wonder that because they cannot be taken by the market, and there must be some intervention by a public authority in taking them.

[Lord Borwick]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 65. It was painfully obvious when dedicated spaces were introduced for disabled drivers that those spaces should be nearest to the supermarket. Yet, unfortunately, this had to be spelt out in regulation. Sometimes, things that are blindingly obvious to noble Lords escape the attention of other people.

I fear that the same may be true of electric rapid charging points, which is why I proposed my amendment. If the Minister can assure me that the department already has this power I will be happy to withdraw it, but if, as I fear, it does not, the Minister should accept the amendment. It is always possible that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is entirely correct and we shall see entire fields full of rapid charging spots, so the location does not matter so much. But until that stage—and particularly at the beginning—the location of rapid charging points relative to other amenities could be important.

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[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I acknowledge this as a particularly excellent group of amendments. These points are all key priorities that will need to be consulted on before any regulations are brought forward. As proposed in Amendments 63 and 64, it is important that the Government can specify the type of charge points being installed in large fuel retailers or service areas. It is already the Government’s intention, as is made clear in the policy scoping notes, that any regulations under Clause 10 would include details of what provision of electric vehicle infrastructure will be required to ensure that the needs of users are met, and to deliver a quick and hassle-free charging experience, similar to refuelling conventional cars today.

This would include: specifying the level of charging infrastructure, most likely to be measured by number of charge points or hydrogen refuelling points; the specification for that infrastructure, such as the minimum power outputs and the connectors of charge points—I entirely agree that we want to avoid multiple chargers, and another VHS/Betamax situation—and any other operational requirements, such as the opening hours of the charge point. Decisions on those will not be taken by the market; they will be set by regulations—but they will be informed by consultation both with the market and with users of vehicles, to ensure that we get it right.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Is the Minister saying that the motorway service station provider will be told the proportion between one form of equipment and another?

[Baroness Sugg]

I missed that last point: the motorway service station provider will be told what?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The kind of equipment, whether three-hour, 20 minutes, 12-hour or whatever, to install.

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The laissez-faire, “let the market provide” attitude will not work. China is showing us that that is the case and California has done so previously. This Bill is not something that the Government should be particularly proud of. I regret that it is too narrow and I believe that the Short Title should be changed to be more honest about its contents. I beg to move.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, we have just heard a very earnest plea from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. I noticed during our proceedings today that the Ministers at the Dispatch Box, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, indicated that they might be prepared to take things back to the department for further consideration. I express the hope that, when we get to Report, there will be some government amendments that reflect the concerns expressed in the debate today.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, in speaking to my Amendment 106, I want to agree with what has been said by the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. This is a missed opportunity in that, until the last six months or so, transport Bills have been few and far between. I realise that they are falling like confetti now, but each one is so tiny that, between each Bill, there are great gaps in the strategic action that needs to be taken. Ironically, we have been concentrating a lot on the cutting edge of technology—we have looked at space travel in the Space Industry Bill and at lasers. The pace of technology in those areas is very fast, and this is the same. There is a need for strategic thinking, because the detailed stuff is in danger of becoming out of date. The result is that the Government, being aware of that, have written not just narrow Bills but very vague Bills, giving them lots of power to dream up regulations but no guarantee on the direction in which they are going.

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, addresses in her amendment the need to be accurate about what the Bill is. Turning that on its head, in various speeches in our proceedings I have referred to the fact that the part of the Bill dealing with automated vehicles ignores the street scene changes and the changes to the structure of road safety law that will be needed. In Amendment 106, I have drawn attention to hydrogen. That is another specific example of other sorts of developing technology that are lower emission and deserve to be part of an overall strategy.

My final thought on this is that the Government need to do a great deal of connected thinking on all these little bits of effort. We are in danger of leading people to think that we have a strategy fit for the future. I do not believe that we have.