Wales Bill

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) : House of Lords
Monday 31st October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, with all the Celtic fervour that I can muster. The principle is undoubtedly a proper one, but the technicality is narrow. Some arguments turn upon the existence of Welsh law—its distinctive character—and they are not without their merit. However, that to my mind is not the issue, which is the juxtaposition of a parliamentary jurisdiction and a court jurisdiction. I would go so far as to say that there is something wrong with the constitutional geometry of the situation where more than one parliament operates within the sphere of one legal jurisdiction. That is the essence of it.

Even if there was no difference whatever between Welsh and English law in this matter—and we know there is—it would still be the case, parliaments having the inimitable bent to go their own way, that to have two or more parliaments operating within a single jurisdiction was wrong. I think I heard the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, say that he doubted whether there was any situation in the whole world where that is so, but I ask the Minister—not perhaps in his ministerial capacity but in his capacity as a very distinguished professor of law—whether in any democratic system in the world there is an instance of two parliaments operating within a single legal jurisdiction.

Having said that, I appreciate that there are difficulties, and I have profound respect for what has been said by the noble and learned Lords, Lord Hope and Lord Judge. A great deal has already been started and been done. The Administrative Court has been referred to and it is undoubtedly a success. In addition—I think that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, had a great deal to do with this—the civil and criminal divisions of the Court of Appeal were given every encouragement to meet in Wales, and they did so on many occasions.

There are many trends of that kind; nevertheless, the basic problem still has to be met. We have already heard of the situation in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey have their own parliaments and their own jurisdictions. As a matter of legal purity, there should never be a situation where more than one parliament operates within one jurisdiction. Having said that, I appreciate that there are practical difficulties.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (LD)]

My Lords, I joined the Wales and Chester circuit of the Bar 45 years and two months ago. I went to chambers in Chester, where my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford was already well established, and I confess that I learned a great deal from him, almost all of it good. It is therefore with a good deal of pleasure that I rise to support his amendment.

I have some sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, in his aspirations for Welsh institutions, but I fear that I have to come to the same conclusion as my noble friend Lord Thomas—that what he proposes is not needed and nor would it work. Speaking only for myself, I suspect, I have long been in favour of the creation of a separate Wales division of the High Court to cover civil and criminal proceedings. Although a great deal has been done, which I shall mention in a moment, we still do not quite have that formal division. In my view, that would be an excellent measure, well understood, and it would possibly allow Wales to have some appointments that would be appropriate to such a division, such as a presidency of the division—there are presidents of the other divisions of our senior courts. I think that that would be met with approval throughout the legal profession in Wales, although, as I shall set out in a moment, it is not necessarily those in the legal profession who are the right people to decide these things.

I join in the tribute that has been paid to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who as Lord Chief Justice did a great deal to give the Welsh jurisdiction an identity which previously it had not had for several hundred years. Of course, as I think my noble friend said at Second Reading—I have certainly heard him say it in your Lordships’ House—there used to be a chief justice of Wales. Indeed, he and I appeared at the Chester city quarter sessions, in the building of which there is a large portrait of a former chief justice of Wales—the well-known Lord Jeffreys or Judge Jeffreys. He is not necessarily the best precedent for such an appointment; nevertheless, there is that precedent. There could be a president of a Wales division, although not in a Jeffreys-like way—who, by the way, was not half as bad as history has made him out to be. Of course I will give way to my noble friend.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

Your Lordships will appreciate that I was born in Acton on the Jeffreys estate.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew]

I am delighted to hear that. My noble friend’s sense of justice certainly does not in any way imitate that of Lord Jeffreys of the Bloody Assizes.

However, what I am suggesting is that the presidency of a Wales division of the High Court would have real attractions within Wales.

I would also like—I know that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, would associate himself with this—to praise the actions of the current Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, who was born in south Wales and has frequently reminded us of that fact. Indeed, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, has evolved what was introduced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and given further credibility to the respect that is given to Wales as a jurisdiction where relevant and appropriate.

One group who have hardly been mentioned in this debate is the poor old litigants who go to law in Wales. I had the great privilege of representing Montgomeryshire as its Member of Parliament for 14 years. It sits on a long stretch of the Welsh border. It is quite common for a customer to walk into an estate agent in, say, Llanfyllin, and negotiate the purchase of a property in another branch of that estate agency in Shrewsbury. It is very common—I may have done it myself—to go and look at a new car in Welshpool, but negotiate the price of that new car with somebody in Shrewsbury or some other English town. It is important for Wales that we develop as strong a financial services industry and venture capital industry in Wales as possible, but we need those English and foreign investors who want to take part in such transactions to have the confidence that they work in a predictable legal environment.

This is my final example, although I could give dozens. We need to be sure that those who face a trading standards dispute that arises with a company that operates both in Wales and in England are not faced by someone like myself scratching their expensive head in chambers and saying, “Oh, we’ve got a private international law issue here; a conflicts of law issue on which I will have to write you an extremely learned opinion”—at whatever my hourly rate for the time being happens to be. I do not think that we should inflict those disputes and problems on litigants. Inevitably, that is what would happen after time.

There are many common law jurisdictions around the world and they of course pay enormous respect to the decisions of what was formerly the House of Lords and is now the Supreme Court, and pay lower levels of respect to senior courts as you go down the hierarchy of courts. But inevitably there would be judgments in a separate Welsh jurisdiction that would be inconsistent with judgments in the English jurisdiction or any other common law jurisdiction such as the Scottish jurisdiction—which, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, knows, has a different origin—or for that matter the jurisdiction in Northern Ireland.

While I would not wish to leave things necessarily as they are and I welcome the proposal made by my noble friend of a detailed and one-off review, creating a completely separate set of law for Wales would be to turn the clock backwards rather than forwards and would have damaging effects on potential litigants in Wales and on the economy of Wales

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, we are present at one of the most unusual occasions that I can remember. This is an occasion on which lawyers almost universally want to have a less complicated system in which they are less able to find reasons for charging people more money for doing more work. As the House knows, I have a particular penchant for intervening in debates that are largely among lawyers because it is important that they should not be allowed to have unique control over the way in which the law is worked. It therefore pains me to say that I am entirely on the side of the well-argued case put by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. He has explained exactly why there was no need to go down this route.

However, there is one thing that I hope my noble friend will help me with. I do not understand why the Government have set up a working party at this point which it appears will not report in a way that can help this House and which appears to be dilatory in the invitations it has issued. My concern reflects a point raised by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell: this House deserves better. I would like to know what the working party concludes. It would be easier for us to make proper decisions were the working party to give us its information before we make them. The reason I have risen to speak is not only because of my long-standing interest in Welsh affairs but because this House is very often treated rather poorly by the system. If we are to do the job of careful examination of Bills properly, we should have the information beforehand and not be told that there is a working party which will report afterwards. By then we will have missed the opportunity of being informed and doing our job properly.

I hope that my noble friend will not take it amiss, but this is a case which I have had to raise constantly in this House because it has become something of a habit not just of this Government but of previous Governments—to suggest that because they are having discussions, it does not count that we cannot have discussions as a result of their discussions. Discussions between civil servants, however noble, are not the same as discussions between parliamentarians, so we ought to have the information before we finalise our views.

Wales Bill

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 31st October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (LD)]

My Lords, there has been an unusual noise of breaking bottles outside your Lordships’ House this evening. It rather reflects what I personally would like to do with the Welsh Assembly electoral system. In my view, it has two quite incompatible electoral systems to it. The constituency Members are elected in the normal way to which we are accustomed. The top-up list of 20 is not really elected by the public at all. The truth of the matter is that the candidates who come top of the list of those of the political parties involved are selected by the members of those political parties. Those political parties can have their own selection process, which might well have absolutely nothing to do with residence in Wales or the interests of Wales. We have a fine example in one person who has been mentioned, who actually represents the riff-raff and detritus of our political system. It is very unfortunate for the Welsh Assembly that we have such a person within it.

I listened with great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, as I always do. I understand absolutely the point he is seeking to make. In my old constituency of Montgomeryshire there is a main trunk road that goes through the village of Llanymynech. One side of that road is in Wales and the other side is in England, and indeed there is a public house that is well known to the local residents which has a bar in England and the rest of the pub in Wales, which was of great importance at the time of Sunday closing of pubs in Wales. However, that said, there is no God-given right to be a candidate in an election in Wales. My noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford just mentioned the two Liberal Democrats who were affected by their membership of public bodies in a way that was reasonably clear if you had gone to a lawyer to analyse the point before the election took place but was not totally clear otherwise.

Wales Bill

Lord Carlile of Berriew Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 14th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, before we begin our Report stage scrutiny of the Bill, I would like to say a few words on the wider context and timing of the Bill’s remaining stages. This House has undertaken very effective scrutiny of the Bill. On our part, the Government have listened to points that have been made and concerns raised, and have brought forward amendments where we believe this will improve the Bill’s provisions and put in place a more robust and lasting new devolution settlement. The amendments that the Government are bringing forward for debate today, and for consideration by this House on the second day of Report in the new year, are testament to this.

There is a need for the Assembly to consider an LCM on the Bill before our Third Reading, which we will certainly do. Should the Bill then be subsequently different from the one agreed to by the Assembly, a new LCM would be needed. A different Bill post 17 January would need a new LCM. I feel duty-bound to mention this difficulty and this pressure, although the attitude of noble Lords is of course entirely a matter for your Lordships’ House.

On the amendments in this first group, Clause 1 gives important statutory recognition to the existence of a body of law created by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers which forms part of the law of England and Wales. In Committee, I committed to reflect further on the spirit of an amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, that sought to clarify that the body of Welsh law made by the Assembly and the Welsh Ministers forms part of the law that applies in Wales. Having done so, I am pleased to bring forward government Amendment 1, which clarifies that the body of Welsh law made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers forms part of a wider body of law that applies in Wales. In considering the wording of this government amendment, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, for his wise counsel, drawing on his expertise and experience as a former Presiding Officer of the National Assembly.

On Amendment 2, a non-government amendment, noble Lords will recall that we debated a similar amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on the first day in Committee, and this issue was also considered in some detail in the other place. It is clear that is there a strong appetite to keep under review the operation of the justice system in Wales as a result of continuing divergence in the laws that apply in England and in Wales, and to ensure that the distinctiveness of Wales is properly reflected under the settlement provided by this Bill.

The Government have been clear throughout the passage of the Bill that we consider the most effective and efficient way to administer justice in England and Wales is through a single jurisdiction. The distinctiveness of Wales can be, and indeed already is, reflected within the single jurisdiction, for example through the National Offender Management Service in Wales and Her Majesty’s Courts & Tribunals Service in Wales. This enables, for example, the National Offender Management Service in Wales to work closely and directly with the Welsh Government and with health and education providers to ensure appropriate provision of services for offenders. It allows the courts to be administered directly in Wales by staff in Wales, while ensuring that a consistent approach is taken on justice policy.

There is undoubtedly a distinctive legal identity in Wales. It has two legislatures and a small but growing body of law made by the Assembly and Welsh Ministers which lawyers and judges will have to specialise in and apply appropriately in relation to devolved matters. Even with increased divergence, the vast majority of laws will, however, continue to apply across England and Wales. A separate jurisdiction would therefore create significant upheaval and huge cost for no good reason.

In Committee, I agreed to take away the points made about establishing a commission to review the functioning of the justice system in relation to Wales, recognising the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, that it is an evolving picture and the points made by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, about the sources of Welsh law. But for the reasons that I have just outlined, such a review should be within the framework provided under the Bill; that is to say that it should review the functioning of the justice system in Wales within the single legal jurisdiction. I was also clear that a statutory commission would not be the appropriate solution. This would be unnecessarily costly and complex, and would be constrained in how it approached its task.

The principle of reviewing the functioning and operation of the justice system in Wales is sensible. That is why we established the Justice in Wales Working Group to consider the administrative and practical implications for the justice system of diverging law. The group will report to Ministers and the Lord Chief Justice within the next week. I wrote to noble Lords yesterday with an early overview of its recommendations, and consideration is being given as to how best to inform Parliament and stakeholders of its findings.

The group has met a range of people involved in the justice system in Wales, including the judiciary, academics, legal practitioners, professional bodies and those directly responsible for the delivery of justice, including NOMS in Wales, HMCTS Wales, Youth Justice Board Cymru and the Crown Prosecution Service. Those discussions have yielded an invaluable source of information on the current processes as well as providing sensible, pragmatic solutions for managing the justice system as the law continues to diverge in Wales. But the work will not finish there. There will be a continuing need to ensure that justice operational arms and devolved authorities work closely together to deliver effective justice in Wales, building on existing examples of good practice and co-operation.

I understand that one of the group’s main recommendations is likely to be the establishment of a committee to undertake periodic reviews of the operation of the justice system as the law continues to diverge. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has written to the First Minister proposing that such a non-statutory group be established to keep the operation of the justice system in Wales under review on a permanent basis as the administrative arrangements continue to evolve to reflect Wales’s distinctiveness within the single jurisdiction.

The committee will have a focused remit, and will be chaired by a senior official from the Cabinet Office. It will include a representative from the Ministry of Justice and from the Welsh Government. The committee would report periodically to the Lord Chancellor, with both the First Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales receiving copies. Further consideration will be given to the membership and terms of reference of the committee, and to issues such as how regularly it will report and when it should be established. I understand that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and the First Minister are meeting tomorrow to discuss this issue, among others. However, the committee will not consider issues relating to the jurisdiction or the devolution boundary that this Bill puts in place. I trust that noble Lords will agree that this committee provides a solid basis through which to ensure that the justice system in Wales keeps pace with the dual influence of Assembly and parliamentary lawmaking within the single jurisdiction.

I turn now to Amendment 3. Clause 2 places the existing convention on legislative consent on a statutory footing—

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (LD)]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord and I hear what he says about jurisdiction. If that is to be the case, can he confirm that although the committee will not deal with jurisdiction, it may make recommendations about the administration of parts of the joint jurisdiction so that, for example, a Wales division of the High Court, for instance, might be established which is separate in devolution terms from the Queen’s Bench Division of the High Court, so that the High Court could be fully administered within Wales?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord will understand that I do not want to be drawn into the specifics but, having said that, I understand that that would be within scope. As I say, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and the First Minister are meeting tomorrow to discuss the terms of reference more fully, but as I say I understand that that would be in scope.

Again, I turn to Amendment 3, dealing with the convention on legislative consent which we are seeking to place on a statutory footing as the Government committed to do in the St David’s Day agreement. This is also in line with Section 2 of the Scotland Act 2016. The convention states that Parliament will not normally legislate on matters devolved to the National Assembly for Wales without the consent of the Assembly. Through Amendment 3, the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, is seeking to broaden the convention by removing the word “normally” from it, and I understand that he will come to address the points on this later.

The use of the word “normally” reflects the convention as it is set out in devolution guidance and its removal from the clause would fundamentally change the nature of what is understood by the convention. That is not what was recommended by the Silk commission or what was set out in the St David’s Day agreement and it is therefore not what we are doing in this Bill.

It is a fundamental principle of our constitution that Parliament is sovereign. As such, it can legislate for matters devolved to the National Assembly for Wales as it can for those devolved to the Scottish Parliament. The convention does not seek to fetter this ability. What it does is make clear that Parliament would not normally do so without the consent of the relevant devolved legislature. The inclusion of “not normally” is essential as it acknowledges parliamentary sovereignty. It also signals that it is not intended to be justiciable, because the courts would recognise that it is for Parliament to determine what is and is not normal in this context.

There may be occasions when it makes sense to legislate on a UK-wide basis. Since the convention was established, a legislative consent Motion has always been sought before Parliament passes legislation applying to Wales which, in the Government’s view, relates to the conferred matters within the Assembly’s legislative competence. I can confirm that this is part of the normal working arrangements between the UK and Welsh Governments that work well, and I expect that to continue.

I turn now to government Amendment 9. Clause 5 inserts new Section 13A into the Government of Wales Act which gives the Secretary of State the power to make regulations to combine the polls at certain Assembly elections with certain UK parliamentary elections and European parliamentary elections. The exercise of this power is subject to the agreement of Welsh Ministers. We consider that it is appropriate for the Secretary of State to be required to consult the Electoral Commission on any regulations made under Section 13A of the Government of Wales Act. This is consistent with the requirement to consult under Section 13 of that Act. Government Amendment 9 achieves this by adding Section 13A of the Government of Wales Act to Section 7(2)(f) of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

Government Amendments 10 and 105 relate to the current limit placed on the number of Welsh Ministers. Section 51 of the Government of Wales Act provides that no more than 12 persons are to hold relevant Welsh ministerial office at any time. A relevant Welsh ministerial office is defined in this section as the office of Welsh Minister appointed under Section 48 of the Government of Wales Act or the office of Deputy Welsh Minister. Noble Lords will be aware that the Bill provides significant powers to the Assembly to be able to increase its size if it so wishes. In this context, it is only right that the Assembly should also have the power to increase the size of the Executive. Amendment 105 devolves power to the Assembly to be able to modify or repeal this limit.

Amendment 10 provides that any Assembly legislation which sought to modify this limit would be subject to a supermajority; that is, it would need to be supported by at least two-thirds of Assembly Members. Given the current size of the Assembly in relation to the Welsh Government, we believe that this provides a sensible safeguard to ensure that any modification or repeal of the limit would have broad support among Assembly Members. We have worked closely with the Welsh Government and the Assembly Commission in preparing these amendments.