House of Lords: Domestic Committees

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, always makes very pertinent and constructive suggestions, and we have had a very good example of that this afternoon. I begin, as have others, by thanking my noble friend the Leader of the House for initiating the debate and for the manner in which she did so, and of course I particularly thank my noble friend Lady Shephard of Northwold, who gave us an exemplary précis of her report. It was clear and concise, and it illustrated the underlying wisdom with which she and her colleagues approached a very difficult task. She was quite right in interpreting my vigorous nods as indicating that the Campaign for an Effective Second Chamber, which I have the honour to chair, produced a very good turnout for her meeting, and there was a great degree of consensus in welcoming the report and the good sense of its recommendations.

One problem with your Lordships’ House is that how it operates is a bit of a mystery. I often think of those words of Churchill in a very different context: it is a riddle wrapped up in an enigma. I feel it is important that we shine some light not just on what we do but on how we do it, and perhaps I may give a specific example. A few months ago, we suddenly noticed ladies and gentlemen with cameras walking around the place. I lost count of the number of times I was asked, “How did this come about?”. Indeed, the gentlemen with cameras and the producers came to the Campaign for an Effective Second Chamber for what was an extremely constructive meeting. I make no criticism of the fact that the decision was taken, but many Members of your Lordships’ House were in ignorance of it. That in itself illustrates a certain fault line in the way in which things are decided. I believe that the recommendations of my noble friend Lady Shephard of Northwold and her committee would help very much in that regard.

Before I make a few general comments, I would like to make two specific ones. First, I do not want to go down the road of primary legislation, and am glad that my noble friend Lady Shephard does not want to either. If that is necessary to change the title of Chairman of Committees, then I think we should put that to one side. We can always have a rider that says, “The Chairman of Committees, who will act as Senior Deputy Speaker”—that can easily be done and does not need legislation. The last thing we want to do is to give the impression that we are going in for navel-gazing legislation at a time when the public’s mind is on rather more important things.

The second specific point is this. I had the great honour to be chairman of the Speaker’s Advisory Committee on Works of Art in another place for some 14 years. I did my three years on the Works of Art Committee here under the chairmanship of the late lamented, much-respected Lord Luke and then in the initial meetings taken by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, who is doing an excellent job. I believe that the recommendation in the report that this should be an advisory committee to the Lord Speaker has a great deal to commend it, not least because when people with a great knowledge and interest in a subject such as works of art are appointed, it is a pity if their time is limited to three years. On an advisory committee, that would not necessarily apply. Therefore, I welcome that recommendation very warmly.

My noble friend Lady Shephard, in her admirable introduction, referred to tensions. There are, of course, tensions in this House and in another place, which stem from the single simple fact that, in our system, the Executive are drawn from the legislature. So there are tensions between Front and Back Benches on both sides of the House, very apparent at the moment in various ways but I will not amplify on that, and between the two sides. One finds that especially in another place—the elected House; the superior House—although it does spill over here a bit. It is crucial that we recognise that, just as we recognise how important it is that our two Houses should work more closely together. I endorse everything that my noble friend Lord Fowler said in that context, and very much hope that if we do adopt these recommendations, which I hope we will, they will lead to a greater understanding between the two Houses and a greater understanding of the need and importance of common services—my noble friend Lord Fowler referred to the Library specifically in that context.

It is very sad indeed that not only the mechanism of your Lordships’ House but what it exists for and what it does are not sufficiently known in another place. The more that we can work together through Joint Committees, and the more that we can understand each other’s procedures, the better it is for parliamentary government. The better it is also for the principal purpose of Parliament, which is to hold the Government to account. We have said in different debates recently that it is the Government who are accountable to Parliament and not the other way round. That is of fundamental importance.

While it is, of course, necessary to have the usual channels—I was part of them myself alongside my noble friend Lady Shephard for some years and it was a very agreeable experience—I always remember the famous Enoch Powell definition of the usual channels as being the most polluted waterways in Europe. That does not of course apply to the wonderful distilled water in the usual channels in your Lordships’ House, but it is important that too much power should not be exercised by the Executive or the opposition Front Bench, directly or indirectly, in the way in which committees are chosen. In another place—this is since I left—they have shown us that the election of chairmen and members of Select Committees has not brought the House of Commons crashing down. It would be sensible, if we are to have these more representative committees, if there were at least elections within the party groups deciding who should serve on them—I commend that particularly to my noble friend the Leader of the House.

I often think, as I am sure do other noble Lords, of the 18th century and Dunning’s Motion in the other place that,

“the influence of the Crown has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished”.

That applies to the Executive in 2016. Our structure of governance has an important role in ensuring that we are a vibrant House with a real contribution to make to the legislative process. We can do this more effectively if there is greater understanding across the House of the way in which we operate and greater support for it.

I hope that from today’s debate we will move forward towards implementation, but we have to take into account points made not only by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, who preceded me, but by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, who made a characteristically wise speech indicating that there are t’s to be crossed and i’s to be dotted as we work out precisely how we do this. However, my noble friend and her committee have given us an admirable blueprint. It is incumbent on us all to do whatever we can to ensure that it is properly and constructively implemented, because—and I go back to the title of the group that I have the honour to chair—this way lies the creation of an even more effective second Chamber, and that is what we should all be about.