European Union Bill

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has tested our memories, and I ask noble Lords to test theirs. I did not intervene in Committee because to do so might have delayed the Whitsun Recess. Never have I received such a warm reception for a speech that I did not make.

I have been reluctant to intervene on this Bill because it has so much detail. I have been prompted to change my mind by two things. First of all, sitting here last week listening to proceedings for many hours, I heard language that I did not think did the argument justice. I heard Members of another place called “rather nerdy people” simply for being persistent and consistent. I do not know whether it is my job as one of the newest Members here to say that that sort of language in a debate helps neither the debate nor the reputation of this House.

I also thought that I should not intervene because, frankly, there are so many big beasts of the European jungle here—some very big beasts. Looking around this Chamber I can see that many of them are waiting to pounce, although where they were last week when the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, and I defended the honour of this place in the Commons versus Lords tug of war, I do not know. I wish they had been there. For those who do not know, we came a very close second.

Listening to this debate, I often feel as though I have dropped into the scene of that wonderful film, “Casablanca”, right at the very end when the wicked deed has been done, the fog is swirling, the body is lying on the ground and the police captain instructs his men:

“Round up the usual suspects”.

Having sat through this Bill for so many hours, I am beginning to recognise some of those usual suspects. If they will forgive me, I think it is not I who have missed the point but they. We have heard the blandishments of compromise that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has put forward so eloquently today, and we have heard the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. Apparently we cannot afford a referendum on these issues. We have just had a referendum on AV, which no one seemed to want, so why can we not afford referendums on matters that people so clearly want?

This debate has tried to bury the point in details rather than address the fundamental purpose. This amendment, like so many of the others that we shall deal with today, is yet another excellent example of that. The details are of course important, but the fundamental purpose of making the EU responsive to the people is far more so.

Europe is unpopular and is growing ever more so. No institution that claims to be democratic can sustain itself in the face of continued popular hostility. That is the huge challenge that this Bill aims to meet. We have heard it called a process of reconnection, but that language is insufficient. This Bill is much more than that; it is an attempt to save the European Union from itself.

It is my firm proposition, and, I believe, that of the Bill, that the people know best. To suggest, as so many of the amendments do, that there is nothing wrong with an institution that asks to be taken on trust yet embraces accounting practices that would have any company director thrown in jail is hopeless. Some might even argue that it is pretty shameful. Ministers have been accused constantly of not listening. Well, your Lordships will forgive me if I say that it is the usual suspects who have not been listening; they seem even afraid to listen. If they had listened more, perhaps we would not need this Bill. The Bill is a mark of their failure, a failure to recognise the need for change.

There is nothing inherently wrong or evil in the European dream. What so many ordinary men and women object to is the way in which that dream has been put into practice, imposed from the top down rather than built from the bottom up, so that it has now become so top-heavy it is in danger of toppling.

The face of Europe has changed over these past 40 years, whether the people accepted it or not. Often, little has changed perhaps from day to day; just a small change here, a little adjustment, a nip or a tuck there—a bit of bureaucratic Botox for which the EU is so well known. However, as with any ageing process, the face has ultimately changed beyond all recognition. It needs rejuvenation, and the only way to do that is by re-establishing the pre-eminence of the people in its deliberations. That will not harm the European dream; it will save it. The great irony of this amendment and all the amendments that we will discuss today is that, if they are pushed to a vote by their proposers, it is a vote that they will deny the people whom we were sent here to serve.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, referred to the argument about Parliament and said that the party positions had changed. However, I said at the beginning of my remarks on the Bill last week that we are nothing if not consistent in our consistencies. This House voted so that people such as me in Northern Ireland would have a referendum on our constitutional future and that we would decide. As recently as on a visit to Northern Ireland last week, the Prime Minister said that the decision about its future lay with the people there; he did not say that it lay with Parliament. If we want to take the argument to its logical conclusion, that Parliament decides everything, why did Parliament provide for referenda in the first place? If you are going to be consistent in saying that such matters are a decision for Parliament, you do not have referenda. However, we do have referenda. We had one in 1975, and we have had a number since. Therefore, the argument that Parliament always takes the decisions is simply not true.

Edmund Burke was quoted again. He is very popular in this debate, but we are talking about the 18th century and things have moved on. Life has changed. We have a totally different world in which people are, thank God, educated and able to participate in a meaningful way and no longer require people who can read and write to interpret things for them. As a new Member, it has struck me from the very beginning of our debates on the Bill that it is hard to construct an argument that we support the Bill in broad terms, inelegant though it might be, without automatically being deemed to be someone who does not want to have anything to do with Europe. I refute that. There are positive things about Europe, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, said, in the view of the British people Europe has been systematically salami-sliced.

I think I understand why that is. There is a small group of people at the heart of Europe who, for perfectly legitimate reasons, believe ultimately in a large superstate to rival the United States. We saw an example of that last week when one former Prime Minister said that we now need a leader. I am not speculating on who he thought that person might be, but the implication is that the nation state is not held by some people to be the fundamental building block of the European Union. Indeed, the nation state is merely in transition towards something else.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

The fact that there is a difference in Parliament from what happens at elections is precisely what we are discussing. The fact is that after the passing of the Amsterdam treaty the British people re-elected a Labour Government and after the passing of the Nice treaty the British people re-elected a Labour Government. They had the opportunity to get rid of the Government on those occasions and they chose not to do so.

The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, made a very interesting argument. He said, with passionate conviction, that the British people know best. Do we therefore extend that argument to a referendum on the current health proposals that are dominating our headlines and are probably far closer to the hearts of the British people than a lot of what we are discussing here? Did it occur to the Benches opposite to have a referendum on the increases in university fees?

[Lord Dobbs]

Does the noble Baroness accept that I was trying to make the point that there should be moderation and a sense of balance in all this? That is what so many parts of this argument lack. It is not a matter to be taken to extremes; it is a matter of balance and common sense. Had we pursued that with the British people, they would be far more onside than they are.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, of course it is a question of balance and common sense. Where do we find arguments about balance and common sense but in another place and, especially, here? It is here where we have those arguments and can argue out what is in a Bill.

The noble Lord said that the British people know best—he did not qualify the sentence that he uttered—in making his argument about how important referendums could be. I merely suggest to him that the British people would perhaps have liked to have had a referendum on the increases in university fees.

European Union Bill

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, although I oppose both Amendments 61 and 63 for attempting to kill the Bill before its effect can be seen in practice, I have some sympathy with Amendment 62. Over the eight days that this Committee has sat, many noble Lords have expressed concern from both the pro and the anti-European perspectives about detail that is often not in the Bill itself, as the Bill is not about policy but very much about a legislative route and framework. As a new member of this House, I have found it somewhat bemusing that we have ended up debating policy issues—particularly dead-fish catches—when the Bill seems really to focus on the framework. That is not surprising given the strength of feeling on all sides about Europe, and I recognise that it is unlikely that we will ever reach unanimity; obviously, much of the concern is about that. Indeed, that was expressed in the coalition agreement—that we would be working from different policy perspectives but trying to find a route where we could work together, better to engage with the British public.

I have some sympathy with Amendment 62, on the grounds that it proposes a range of actions available for a future Parliament, and a future Secretary of State and his or her Government. However, there is one fundamental flaw with Amendment 62, in that it proposes that Part 1 and Schedule 1 expire at the end of this Parliament. The Government have said that they do not expect any referendums during this Parliament, because it is not expected that there will be any transfers of powers or competences during this Parliament. As an aside, I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, is conflating the “policy versus law” argument that I made earlier, because the Government have announced that they are taking the logic of this and turning it into law for the framework, not tackling policy issues.

That is why I hope that the arguments made in Amendment 64, to which I have added my name, will find favour with the Committee. It is a probing amendment that tries to find a pragmatic route through the current impasse in the House. In the amendment, we propose a sunset clause for half way through the next Parliament, which will give time to see how the referendum lock would work in practice. Importantly, it also provides for the opportunity to revive the order, should a future Secretary of State so will it; of course the correct instruments would go through both Houses. This gives a future Parliament the means to let the Act expire or to revive it by order, without having to schedule large amounts of time in both Houses at the beginning of a new Parliament. Amendment 64 therefore offers a neat solution for those on all sides of the argument, and I commend it to the House.

[Lord Dobbs]

My Lords, I had intended to intervene for the very first time on the Bill to make a passionate denunciation of the idea of a sunset clause—on its inappropriateness—and I understand that if I do not intervene today I might have trouble intervening at a later stage. Given the pressures of time, I hope that the House will give me leave to not make that intervention today, but perhaps to intervene at a later stage.

[Lord Liddle]

I think we should thank the noble Lord for that, so that we can get on to our quick lunch and then to President Obama.

This debate on sunset clauses has been important. Amendment 63 is in my name. Frankly, I would happily support any of the amendments, because in this long Committee stage the Government have failed to make the case for the detail of the Bill as it stands. Because they have not done so, we are legitimate in proposing a sunset arrangement. Of course, on this side of the House we accept that there is a genuine issue about the popular legitimacy of the European Union. That is a matter for regret from our perspective, but it has to be addressed. The best way in which it could be addressed in this country is by establishing a cross-party consensus in favour of our membership of the European Union and for all parties to speak in that way. I do not think that the Bill is going to do much to establish that cross-party consensus, but it is an opportunity to address anti-Europeanism in our country. The rise of populist parties in other parts of Europe is also a matter of great concern. Britain is not alone in facing this legitimacy question.

We need to do something to strengthen the EU’s legitimacy, but do we need this Bill? There are features of the Bill that the Government have put forward that we are prepared to accept. They represent a strengthening of parliamentary accountability and of the circumstances in which referenda might be held. We now accept, which was not the case when the Lisbon treaty was ratified, that most of the things that come under passerelles and other consequentials of the Lisbon treaty should require a full Act of Parliament. I say to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, that this side supports strengthening parliamentary accountability over what decisions the Government take in Europe. On that, we are agreed. We also accept the codification in statute of the political consensus that we would have to have a referendum to join the euro and that referenda should be considered on issues of major constitutional significance. As I said earlier in Committee, a major constitutional treaty that, for instance, led to the direct election of the president of Europe would be that kind of constitutional change that would require a referendum. There is also a strong case to be considered for referenda should we wish at some stage in our national interest to surrender our border controls or to establish a common defence force. These are very big issues which could be suitable for referenda.

This Bill does not do that. It does not focus on the simple, straightforward case that in most issues you should strengthen parliamentary accountability and then on really big issues you should accommodate the possibility of referenda. Instead, it puts in place multiple referendum locks. We count 56, although I am not quite sure whether that number is right. This is a wholly new constitutional innovation on which many Members on all sides of the Committee have expressed severe reservations. In the course of the Committee, we have tried to reduce the number of referendum locks. We have argued, again with the support of a broad range of opinion in this Committee, that Ministers should be able to exercise judgment about which matters are significant on many of the minor changes and minor treaty revisions on which this Bill imposes a referendum lock. We have argued for a parliamentary process—a Joint Committee of both Houses—to consider where referenda might be necessary. We have supported amendments that would simplify Clause 6 and boil down the number of referendum locks to the really big issues.

We have had no give from the Government on any of those issues through this long Committee. That is why we come back to say that the Government have not been prepared in any way to consider the wide range of opinion in this House that the Bill needs substantial amendment, so it is right to suggest that if it is to stay as it is, the whole thing should be sunsetted. I do not blame the Minister for that; I think he has very little freedom to make concessions in this House. The only time we will get concessions from the Government is if, in voting on Report, we can make changes to the Bill. We have no intention of pressing the issues to a vote today. The whole Bill rests on the misjudgment that the leadership of the coalition has made that Europe is somehow a dead issue in our national politics; that the Lisbon treaty was, as it were, Europe's last gasp in terms of changes in its constitutional architecture; and that the Bill is therefore a cheap bone that can be thrown to the many Eurosceptics on the Benches supporting the coalition in the House of Commons.

That is a great shame for a couple of reasons. First, as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, no one can precisely foretell now how the European Union might have to adapt in future. Therefore, the warning of the Council’s former legal adviser, Jean-Claude Piris, that Britain might find that others go ahead and Britain is marginalised, is likely to prove correct were the Bill to last for the longer term. It could have that very damaging long-term effect on Britain's position in Europe. That is a shame, because the coalition Government, in their day-to-day policy on Europe, are trying to be positive. They present the Janus-faced stance of appealing to the anti-Europeans with this disgraceful piece of legislation on the one hand; and yet, when they go to Brussels, they try to present a positive picture of Britain's role in Europe. They signed up for the defence treaty with France. They have argued for deepening the single market. I would not disagree with a word of the speech to be made today by David Lidington, the Europe Minister, which was trailed in the Financial Times this morning. The Government are being positive, but the truth is that, were the coalition to stay in power—of course I would not wish for that—or the Conservatives to be in power for the longer term, if they wish to pursue a positive European policy, because there will need to be adjustments to the rules over time as well as to decisions, they will find their Bill increasingly an albatross. I think that it was my noble friend Lord Davies who described it as the handcuffs of the multiple referenda.

That is a great pity, because far from Europe being a dead issue, we are at a turning point in our national affairs where, in economics, we have in this country to search for a new economic model. We have to rebalance our economy, which can be done only through rebuilding our export strength. Nothing is more important for that than our full engagement in the European single market, and therefore we have to be as co-operative and positive as we can. In terms of our role in the world, we should heed what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, said in his speeches both today and a couple of days ago. As Asia emerges ever stronger, Britain is more dependent on the influence it can multiply through the European Union to have a role in the world. These are big reasons for showing our full commitment to Europe and why we have to be prepared to be flexible in our dealings with our partners rather than lock ourselves out, which is what the impact of this Bill will be.

In conclusion, like the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who quoted from A Midsummer Night’s Dream, on this side of the Chamber we believe that the European Union is a lasting dream, but this Bill is a nightmare and should be sunsetted at the Report stage.

Libya

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Friday 1st April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs]

My Lords, it has been a privilege to listen today to such an incisive, important and well informed debate. I thank the Minister for enabling this to take place. Most of all, I offer my thanks to the young men and women of our Armed Forces who, once again, have been sent into the eye of the storm and performed brilliantly. It is because of their expertise that so few civilians, if any, have died as a result of the coalition bombing. If there had been casualties, you may be sure that Gaddafi would have dragged every camera crew in Tripoli to the mortuary to see them, as he did in 1986.

Nevertheless, we stand on a difficult and potentially slippery slope. The Middle East has often proved to be a pathway to chaos. It is difficult to think of a single occasion since the Second World War when we have become heavily involved in events in the region and not come away with a bloody nose. I hope I am wrong. Perhaps I have forgotten some great triumph, but from Suez to Iraq, Iran, Palestine and so many of the deserts beyond, it has been a desperately hard road. That is why we must be deeply cautious about arming any of the combatants. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, referred to some of the legal questions that arise, and many others to the practical difficulties. I, like them, simply do not know who these anti-Gaddafi rebels are or what they want. They may not even know themselves what they want, apart from to get rid of Gaddafi. Are these people any better than Osama bin Laden? We have to ask those difficult questions because we in the West armed him, too—another very bloody nose.

There has also been a potentially dangerous tendency to equate every anti-government demonstration in the Middle East with a demand for democracy. I am not sure that link is always clear or convincing. There has been an even bolder leap of faith in proclaiming that Arab democracy will lead to peace in the Middle East and a willingness to deal with Israel. The hatred of Israel has been a remarkably popular cause in much of the Arab world. We cannot change that fact simply by trying to ignore it. That is why we should applaud the Prime Minister for calling the summit earlier this week in London, not simply to examine the conditions of combat but to start work on the still more important plan for the peace that might lie beyond.

Let us face it: we occupy no great moral high ground in this process. The war in Iraq saw to that. Too many people remember our chaotic dealings with Gaddafi himself, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, pointed out. Our policy towards Gaddafi over the past 30 years has been blown from one corner to another. We reviled him and imprisoned his agent for mass murder; then we embraced him and educated his sons; and now—another somersault—we are trying to get rid of him. Diplomacy requires us to climb into some pretty uncomfortable beds at times, but there have been few beds as rumpled as that of Colonel Gaddafi. If we found it necessary to climb into his bed, surely it was never necessary to kiss him on both cheeks in the process. Gaddafi must have been laughing all the way back to his tent after that. He made fools not just of Mr Blair but of us all.

However, perhaps we can now make the fresh start that we need. There is a fashionable description of what we are seeing. It is called, as we have heard, the Arab spring. I hope that is right and that it is more than simply a headline. It is undeniable that some sort of profound change is happening in many countries. The Facebook revolution has stripped these oppressive regimes of the power to cover up their crimes. The secret state has been undermined. This opens up opportunities for a broader peace in the Middle East that were unthinkable even a few years ago. We may be on the brink of a historic opportunity; it is one we cannot afford to miss. People ask, “What is the end game?”. That must be the end game—peace, not just in Libya but more broadly throughout the Middle East.

That is easier said than done, of course. If peace is to happen, it is a process in which, as the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice and Lord Risby, said, Israel must play its part, no matter how difficult that must be for it. A true peace will require courage and initiative from the Israelis. It will require them to take great risks and give up things that they cherish. But any hope of peace must also embrace ordinary Arabs, not just elites. If this Arab spring is to turn to glorious summer, it must mean a much wider spread of economic opportunity than is currently the case in most of these societies.

If it is to be part of our policy to help rebel Arab groups form new Governments, it must also be part of our policy to insist that they become partners in a wider Middle East peace, one based on the recognition that Israel has the right to exist. It would be folly to help Libyan rebels take power only to discover yet again that we had backed the wrong horse. The details will be far more complex than simply the recognition of Israel of course, but we have to pursue the goal of a wider peace remorselessly, unremittingly and, if necessary, ruthlessly; otherwise, what is the point of all this? We have to use all the power and influence we have with our allies, particularly the United States, to insist that this battle we are fighting in Libya does not turn into another wasted opportunity. Whatever aid is given, it has a price, and that price is a commitment to a wider peace. It is not just the future of Libya we are fighting for; our future is also at stake here.