Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointments and Regional Rates) Bill

Lord Dunlop Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Dunlop]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, the context for this short and simple Bill is very clear. Northern Ireland has enjoyed the longest unbroken period of devolved government since the old Stormont Parliament was dissolved in 1972. It is now nearly 10 years since full power was restored to the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland following a prolonged period of suspension. In these years Northern Ireland has taken important and positive steps forward. Northern Ireland is today a more peaceful and prosperous place than it was. Of course, there are still too many acts of wanton violence. Paramilitary activity and terrorism have not yet been eradicated from the streets of Northern Ireland, as we saw all too clearly with the placing of a significant bomb over the weekend by dissident republican terrorists next to a primary school in north Belfast. This is an outrage, putting innocent lives at risk. I pay tribute to the work of the police and other emergency services who work so hard to keep us all safe.

It is clear also that significant economic and social challenges remain to be overcome, so we are all united in this House and beyond in our desire to see the momentum of the peace process maintained. Momentum is what the people of Northern Ireland want their political leaders to deliver, whether here at Westminster or in Stormont. The continuation of strong and stable devolved government is what people voted for in large numbers in the recent Assembly elections. It is what they expect. It is what they deserve. We must not let them down, so protecting the interests of the people of Northern Ireland is at the heart of this simple, three-clause Bill—a Bill designed to ensure that every opportunity is given for an Executive to be formed so that the ratepayers of Northern Ireland do not suffer greater difficulty in managing their bills or that a gap does not open up in funding for essential public services.

It is ultimately the UK Government who have responsibility for maintaining political stability in Northern Ireland, and the Government take that responsibility very seriously. My right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary has updated Parliament regularly in recent weeks. In doing so, he set out his intention to bring forward legislation with two aims in mind: to provide the legal basis for an Executive to form and to set a regional rate to enable that important source of revenue to be collected. In the final full week of this Parliament, the time is right to deal with both those matters, providing greater certainty for the people of Northern Ireland and creating the opportunity for the parties to come together to secure the resumption of devolved government. The way in which this Bill deals with the latter issue takes into account the reality of the forthcoming general election.

I know that the House understands very well the background leading up to today’s Bill. The collapse of the previous Executive in January placed a duty on the Northern Ireland Secretary to set a date for a further election. He did so in January, with the election held on 2 March. Since then, the Secretary of State has been engaged in talks with the political parties and, as appropriate, the Irish Government, in accordance with the well-established three-stranded approach. These talks have had one clear purpose: to re-establish an inclusive devolved Administration in line with the 1998 Belfast agreement and its successors.

When the new Assembly sat for the first time on 13 March, it set in train a 14-day deadline under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 for an Executive to be formed. That deadline, however, came and went on 27 March. The failure to form an Executive within the prescribed period meant that my right honourable friend was placed under a further duty to set a date for another election. At that point, it was no longer possible for an Executive to form without either another election or new legislation specifically enabling Ministers to be appointed to an Executive.

With talks under way and a realistic prospect of an agreement being reached, to have called another Assembly election would not have been appropriate—a view widely shared, not least by many in this House. Therefore, following consultation with the parties and the Irish Government, the Secretary of State convened a further phase of intensive round tables in the 10 days before Easter.

Progress was made on several fronts during that phase on the formation of an Executive, on the budget and on the programme for government. There was progress too in terms of legacy. Constructive discussions took place with all the parties on the detail of the legacy institutions set out in the Stormont House agreement and the need to reform legacy inquests. As my right honourable friend said on Monday in the other place:

“Although no one will underestimate the challenge of addressing the legacy of the past, the proposals are now sufficiently developed that the next step should be to publish them for consultation”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/4/17; col. 918.]


In that way, we can listen to the views of victims and survivors and all those who will be most affected by the proposed new institutions.

However, looking at the talks as a whole, it was clear that outstanding issues remained to be resolved and that a period of reflection was necessary to give the impetus for discussions to reach a successful conclusion. As a result, the talks were paused over Easter and, since then, meetings have continued between the parties.

The Government are clear that the restoration of devolved government remains achievable and the absolute priority. However, that will require more time and more focused engagement by the parties on the critical issues that remain, building on the discussions over the course of the past eight weeks. The Government’s hope, and wish, is that the parties can use this period to build on the progress made so far. This is particularly important given that, with an election on 8 June, if a deal is not reached now, the people of Northern Ireland will be faced with nearly six months without an Executive.

The Bill before this House today would provide the space, and the opportunity, for the parties to do just that. The Government consider this to be the most practical way forward for the people of Northern Ireland in the current circumstances. It is an approach that recognises the current focus on the general election and provides the scope for the parties to continue discussions and to resolve outstanding issues, while providing time for an incoming Government to consider their options if a deal does not prove possible before the election. This gives the best possible opportunity for restoring a strong, stable and inclusive devolved Government. I take this opportunity to place on record my gratitude to the parties opposite for their constructive and positive engagement during the process leading up to this point, and for their support for the measures we are proposing today.

Moving to the substance of the Bill, as I have said, Clause 1 would remove the present legal barrier to an Executive being able to form to enable any deal reached to be implemented. It would retrospectively reset the 14-day clock in the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which expired on 27 March, with a 108-day period, removing the present duty that the Northern Ireland Secretary is under to set a date for an election, with this arising again at 4 pm on Thursday 29 June. After that time, as now, an Executive would no longer be able to form. To be clear, this extension applies to the specific circumstances following the last Assembly elections and does not represent a more fundamental change to the Northern Ireland Act 1998. It will provide the space in the current circumstances for an Executive to form, making clear that the parties are not absolved of their responsibility to make progress.

Let me reiterate the point that if a deal was not already in place, it would provide a period for further talks in the new Parliament, allowing the parties to take stock and move forward. It would mean also that if a deal is not struck, there is a period for the new Government to properly consider the way forward. That is important. In the absence of a deal there will be significant decisions to be made in the new Parliament to provide political stability in Northern Ireland. None of us hopes to face that situation, and this Bill is intended to provide the framework to avoid that outcome. I hope, as I am sure the whole House does, that the parties will seize the opportunity, whether in the coming weeks or soon after, to deliver the Executive for which they have such a clear mandate to secure.

I turn now to Clause 2 on the regional rates. Two acute issues of financial uncertainty are caused by the lack of an Executive. The first is the absence of a 2017-18 regional rate, which represents more than 5% of the total revenue available to the Northern Ireland Executive. Normally this would have been set by the Department of Finance earlier this year via an affirmative rates order in the Assembly. This would have enabled bills to be issued in 10 instalments, giving certainty to ratepayers and allowing various payment reliefs to be applied. However, time has nearly run out for that course. If no rate is set in the next few days, there will be fewer bill instalments of higher amounts, and the longer it takes to set a rate, the worse that situation would become. The only outcome would be bad debt, lost revenue, uncertainty and hardship. Therefore, while we are clear that this is a devolved matter, we are clear also that in the current circumstances only the UK Government can take action to secure the interests of individuals, businesses and indeed the Executive.

Clause 2 addresses this issue by setting a 2017-18 regional rate in Northern Ireland. It does so by setting “pence per pound” rates for both domestic and non-domestic properties. These rates represent a 1.6% inflationary increase, the same approach as was taken by the Executive in setting a rate the year before. As we make clear in Clause 2(4) and (5), it would not cut across the continuing right of the Executive to set a rate by order in the usual way. This would be the most limited step available to us, taken at a point beyond which we cannot delay.

The second financial matter is the lack of a 2017-18 budget. Its absence has meant that since the beginning of this month, civil servants alone have been in charge of allocating cash, which is by no means a solution for the longer term. Before Easter, therefore, the Secretary of State made it clear that he would provide further assurance in this regard if an Executive were not in place, reflecting the UK Government’s ultimate responsibility for political stability in Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State has now provided that assurance in the other place.

First, he has indicated that the Government would be prepared, as a last resort, to pass an appropriation Act in the next Session to provide legislative authority for the expenditure of Northern Ireland departments. Secondly, the Secretary of State has published a Written Ministerial Statement, following the advice of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, setting out indicative departmental allocations. These reflect the budget priorities and decisions of the previous Executive and provide a basis for allocations in the absence of an Executive. These totals would not constrain the future freedom of an incoming Executive to amend expenditure allocations.

These are not steps any Government would take lightly. However, they reflect the duty Parliament owes to the people of Northern Ireland and the Government’s ultimate responsibility, as I say, for political stability and good governance. By passing this Bill we can provide the scope and space for a deal to be done by the parties. The Government will continue to work intensively to secure that outcome in the critical weeks to come. That is what the people of Northern Ireland voted for and it is what businesses, community groups and individuals across Northern Ireland want to see. It is what this Bill seeks to deliver and I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dunlop]

My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to today’s proceedings, providing valuable and important exchanges on the Bill. I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, said. Today, we have heard great wisdom from noble Lords across the House, as I think is always the case when we have debates about Northern Ireland.

A theme of the debate has been that this is not where any of us wanted to be but it is where we are, frustrating though that is, as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, rightly said. I think that there is broad agreement across the House on the steps that the Government are taking today. Another theme that has come across very strongly is that, in searching for solutions to restore devolved government in Northern Ireland, there is a need to show imagination and creativity. That was mentioned by, among others, my noble friend Lord Trimble, the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Alderdice, and my noble friend Lord Cormack.

I extend my thanks once again to the parties opposite and to all others for their support for the Bill and agreeing to its faster than usual passage through this House. As we have heard, the Bill is short and modest in scope, but it provides the framework within which the parties may come together, reach agreement and form an Executive. That is what the people of Northern Ireland voted for on 2 March, and it must remain the focus. This Government will always uphold their responsibilities on political stability and good governance in Northern Ireland. That is why the Bill provides the flexibility for an incoming Government to act in the best interests of Northern Ireland and the space for the parties to conclude a deal. I am very appreciative of the support of the House for this approach.

I was grateful too for the support there was for the Government taking the exceptional step of having this Parliament set a regional rate for Northern Ireland for this year. Although very much a step we had hoped to avoid, it is an essential move for securing greater financial certainty for individuals and businesses in Northern Ireland.

I turn now to some of the specific points raised during the debate. Obviously, one important theme was the question of where the talks go from here and what that will mean for deadlines and creative solutions. These issues were raised by the noble Lords, Lord McAvoy, Lord Browne, Lord Empey, Lord Trimble and Lord Lexden, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie. It is very important that we do not absolve the parties in Northern Ireland of their responsibilities to resolve their differences. The Secretary of State will be meeting the parties tomorrow to consider the way forward. That is the right moment to consider how best to proceed.

Of course the UK and Irish Governments will continue to maintain contact during the election period in line with the three-strand approach, and of course the Northern Ireland Office will continue to be prepared to uphold the UK Government’s responsibilities during the pre-election period. As I have said, the Bill provides the necessary space for agreement to be reached, and that is where the focus should rightly be.

However, this process cannot drag on indefinitely. Clearly, if no agreement is reached then an incoming Government would have to look at the full range of options available. I am sure that any Government coming in after the election would want to examine any creative solutions that are on the table. As has been said by others in this debate, nobody wants a return to direct rule. We want a return to strong and stable devolved government in Northern Ireland.

Brexit has been mentioned, as has the priority that the Government attach to Northern Ireland issues. As we have debated in the past in this Chamber, Northern Ireland clearly has unique interests and those interests are an absolute priority for the Government and the Prime Minister. That was reflected in the Prime Minister’s Article 50 letter, and the Government are encouraged by the priority that has been shown in the draft EU negotiating guidelines, which reciprocate the priority that the Government themselves attach to Northern Ireland issues. As we have discussed and debated many times before, no one wants a return to hard borders, and we want to maintain the momentum of the peace process.

Mention was made of the general election—how could we avoid it? The Prime Minister is seeking a strong mandate to deliver the best possible deal, not just for Northern Ireland but for the UK as a whole.

Representing the interests of Northern Ireland is absolutely why we need the Northern Ireland Executive to be re-formed and get up and running again. In the meantime, the Northern Ireland Office will continue to champion the interests of Northern Ireland in discussions in Whitehall. We have been actively engaging with stakeholders across Northern Ireland to make sure that we understand and represent those interests effectively.

Legacy was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is absolutely clear that we should move to a period of public consultation. Clearly, the timing of this will be a matter for an incoming Government after 8 June, but there is widespread agreement that the current situation is unsatisfactory and we must find a better way—and better outcomes—for victims and survivors that is fair, balanced and proportionate.

On the issue of rates, I can confirm that all the parties were consulted on the approach to the rate and the Government’s approach has been informed by advice from the Northern Ireland Civil Service, in line with scenarios that were provided by officials in the Northern Ireland Civil Service to the political parties. On the resources available to local councils, I reassure the House that any delay in setting a rate has not interrupted the income of local councils.

In conclusion, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their support for the passage of the Bill and I thank my officials for the support they have provided. I am also grateful for the support of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. As I have said, the Bill provides the scope and space for a deal to be done, which is what businesses, community groups and individuals across Northern Ireland want. I am sure that I speak for the whole House when I express my sincere hope that all sides use the opportunity that the Bill provides to secure the resumption of devolved government in Northern Ireland at the earliest opportunity. I ask the House to give this short and simple Bill a Second Reading.

Bill read a second time. Committee negatived. Standing Order 46 having been suspended, the Bill was read a third time and passed.

Northern Ireland: Political Developments

Lord Dunlop Excerpts

Tuesday 28th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, with permission I shall repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the other place. The Statement is as follows:

“Since the Northern Ireland Assembly election on 2 March, I have been engaged in intensive talks with the political parties and the Irish Government, in line with the well-established three-stranded approach. There has been one clear purpose: to re-establish an inclusive, devolved Administration at Stormont in accordance with the 1998 Belfast agreement and its successors.

Progress has been made on a number of issues. These include on a budget, a programme for government and ways of improving transparency and accountability.

We have seen further steps forward on agreeing a way to implement the Stormont House agreement legacy bodies to help provide better outcomes for victims and survivors of the Troubles. In addition, progress was made around how the parties might come together to represent Northern Ireland in our negotiations to leave the EU, which is so important in the context of Article 50 being triggered tomorrow. That said, it is also clear that significant gaps remain between the parties, particularly over issues surrounding culture and identity.

Throughout this process, the Government have been active in making positive proposals to try to bridge those gaps and help the parties to move things forward. In law, the period allowed to form an Executive from the date of the first sitting of the Assembly after an election is 14 days. That 14-day period expired at 4 pm yesterday with no agreement and therefore no Executive. This is a source of deep disappointment and regret to me and I know there is widespread dismay across the country. From all my extensive engagement across Northern Ireland, with business, civil society and members of the public, I am in no doubt that inclusive, devolved government is what the overwhelming majority of the people want to see: working for them, delivering on their priorities and continuing the positive progress we have seen in Northern Ireland over recent years, with devolved institutions up and running and serving the whole community.

Yet following the passing of yesterday’s legal deadline, Northern Ireland has no devolved Administration. This also means that other elements of the Belfast agreement, including the north/south bodies, cannot operate properly. The consequences of all of this are potentially extremely serious. The most immediate is the fact that we are rapidly approaching the point at which Northern Ireland will not have an agreed budget. From tomorrow, a civil servant—the Department of Finance Permanent Secretary—will exercise powers to allocate cash to Northern Ireland departments. This is an interim measure designed to ensure that services are maintained until such time as a budget is agreed. We are keeping in close contact with the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service on these matters and I understand that the Department of Finance will be setting out more details today. But let me be very clear: this situation is not sustainable and beyond a short period of time will have an impact on public services. What we are talking about here is the health service, schools, voluntary groups and services for the most vulnerable in society. This is not what people voted for on 2 March.

During the course of the past 24 hours I have spoken to the leaders of the five main Northern Ireland parties and the Irish Government. I am encouraged that there remains a strong willingness to continue engaging in dialogue with a view to resolving outstanding issues and forming an Executive, but the window of opportunity is short. It is essential therefore that the intensity of discussions is stepped up with renewed intent and focus. To that end I will continue over coming days to work closely with the Northern Ireland parties and the Irish Government as appropriate. I will need to keep the situation under review, but if these talks are successful it would be my intention quickly to bring forward legislation after the Easter Recess to allow an Executive to be formed, avoiding a second Assembly election, for which I detect little public appetite.

I am also determined to take forward the legacy bodies in the Stormont House agreement in accordance with our manifesto commitments. I will be involving a range of interested parties, including the victims’ commissioner. However, in the absence of devolved government, it is ultimately for the United Kingdom Government to provide for political stability and good governance. We do not want to see a return to direct rule. As our manifesto at the last election stated,

‘local policies and local services should be determined by locally elected politicians through locally accountable institutions’.

But should the talks fail in their objectives, the Government will have to consider all options. I therefore want to give the House notice that, following the Easter Recess, as a minimum, it would be my intention to bring forward legislation to set a regional rate to enable local councils to carry out their functions and to provide further assurance around the budget for Northern Ireland.

It is vital that devolved government, and all the institutions under successive agreements, is returned to Northern Ireland as soon as possible, and the Government’s unrelenting focus is on achieving that objective. Northern Ireland needs strong devolved government to deliver for teachers, doctors and nurses, businesses, industry and the wider community; to ensure that it plays a full role in the affairs of our United Kingdom while retaining its strong relationship with Ireland; and to continue the work of the past two decades to build a stronger, peaceful and prosperous future for all. That needs to be the focus of everyone as we approach the crucial next few days and weeks. I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, will start by thanking the Minister for repeating the Statement to your Lordships’ House this afternoon. I will also say that it is with a very deep sense of regret—despite the very genuine efforts by some—that we have reached this impasse.

Let us be clear: the consequences for Northern Ireland of the failure of the political parties to reach agreement to establish an Executive are very serious. We are days away from the end of the financial year, and yet—as has been said—there is no budget. There has been no vote to set next year’s regional rates. There is no programme of government. This will lead to increased uncertainty for key public services in Northern Ireland such as health and education, and in the voluntary and community sectors.

It is particularly to be regretted that the ordinary people of Northern Ireland find themselves without a voice through an Executive at Stormont at such a critical time. With the triggering of Article 50 tomorrow, this is the very time when the particular needs of Northern Ireland deserve to be clearly heard. There are very real and as yet unresolved concerns for Northern Ireland, not least about how to maintain the open border in the context of the UK leaving the customs union. Can the Minister say what mechanisms the Government intend to put in place to ensure that the views of all political parties in Northern Ireland are heard during the Brexit negotiations? Does he agree that the joint ministerial committee will have a greater role to play in the context of Brexit, and that a more balanced representation of MLAs is needed to reflect the views of Northern Ireland?

Does the Minister further agree that, in the event of the current impasse continuing, a mechanism needs to be found to keep Assembly Members in place and to engage them and their party leaders in discussions on Brexit and other issues? Will he confirm that any such mechanism would require primary legislation?

Given that the RHI scandal was one of the immediate causes of the current crisis, will the Minister confirm that it is his understanding that the inquiry chaired by Judge Coghlin could take as long as six months to complete? Is he confident that Judge Coghlin has the necessary resources to enable a rapid conclusion to the inquiry? However, it is clear that there are deeper problems than the specific issues surrounding RHI. It will therefore be necessary to do things differently in order to secure a deal and to move forwards.

We on these Benches believe that there is no alternative to devolution, but that to achieve agreement will require a renewed commitment on the part of all participants to the talks. We believe that all parties now need to take stock of their position and come back to the negotiating table in a frame of mind to reach an agreement. Does the Minster agree that it is necessary to have a renewed sense of momentum, with clear leadership and full engagement by all political parties? What concrete action are the Government taking to provide the necessary leadership at the highest level at this time?

As former President Bill Clinton said last week, making peace work is an “endless process”. It requires compromise, a cool head, leadership and a desire to put the best interests of all the people of Northern Ireland ahead of narrow political advantage. We sincerely hope that such an attitude will be forthcoming in the next few weeks.

[Lord Dunlop]

First, I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their comments. I agree with many of the sentiments they expressed. I think that the whole House will agree that the people we should have in the forefront of our mind today are the people of Northern Ireland. In the recent Assembly elections they voted overwhelmingly for strong, stable and inclusive devolved government, and it will be a matter of great disappointment to them—as it is to the Government—that the parties have been unable to reach agreement within the statutory period to enable an Executive to be formed.

This has real and practical implications. From tomorrow, a civil servant rather than elected representatives will be allocating cash for public services. This is not sustainable beyond the short term. Northern Ireland wants and needs effective, devolved government delivering on an agreed set of priorities and providing strong public services for all the people of Northern Ireland.

Turning in particular to the process going forward and who is involved in it, I say clearly that the UK Government take their responsibilities very seriously. However, it is important to say that the Northern Ireland parties also need to take their responsibilities seriously, to provide leadership and solutions to the current issues. My right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary has been actively involved in supporting and facilitating the discussions between the parties over the last few weeks, and making proposals to bridge the gaps. As he said in the House of Commons, the Prime Minister has been fully engaged. She has held a number of conversations with the Taoiseach and will remain fully engaged as we go forward. However, it is worth noting that high-level interventions have not always worked in the past, as the early 2000s showed, and the circumstances today are very different, with 10 years of unbroken devolved government behind us. But of course we accept that this is a window of opportunity, and the discussions need to be intensified and inclusive. The Secretary of State will be discussing in the coming hours and days with the parties and the Irish Government the process for taking matters forward. We are working closely with the Irish Government and Irish Foreign Minister Charlie Flanagan in accordance with the three-stranded approach.

On some of the other issues, clearly Brexit is a hugely important matter, and it is absolutely vital that the interests and priorities of Northern Ireland are reflected as we prepare for the negotiations to come. That is of course why we need to get a fully functioning Executive up and running as quickly as we can. Of course, the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Office will continue to engage with stakeholders right across Northern Ireland and to represent those interests. However, it would be much more effective if the Executive were in place. There has been progress with the parties in the discussions we have just had in establishing how they can come together to represent the interests of Northern Ireland going forward.

On the RHI inquiry, I think everybody wants to see a rapid reporting of that. Clearly, the procedures are a matter for the inquiry itself, but we want the facts on this issue as quickly as we can.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, as one of those involved in the Belfast agreement, I am delighted at the Statement and the Government’s determination to try to help get devolution restored to Northern Ireland. However, the Statement says:

“But should the talks fail in their objectives, the Government will have to consider all options”.


Is direct rule an option, and is joint rule of Northern Ireland not an option?

[Lord Dunlop]

Our focus is on this period ahead—the window of opportunity the Secretary of State talked about—and I do not want to speculate about alternatives. Clearly, if we do not get agreement within this limited period, we need to consider all the options. However, it is fair to say that nobody wants to see a return to direct rule, which is why we need to intensify the discussions over the coming days and weeks.

[Baroness Blood (Lab)]

My Lords, in reading the Statement, a couple of things worried me. First, we are told in the Statement that we are rapidly approaching a point where there is no real budget. The civil servants will be able to allocate funds for a very short period, but that is not sustainable. I worry about that, because that is the realm of life I live in. While I agree that the Irish language legacy issues are very important, they are not what makes the world go round, but the talks have figured mostly on those things. That worries me greatly, because I see work all around me coming to a halt because of the budget. Can the Minister say whether all the parties have been at a round table, and if not, why not? Are some elected representatives more important than others? With regard to the future of Northern Ireland, I do not consider that to be the case. The Minister talked about going on to future talks. What will be different about the next set of talks?

[Lord Dunlop]

There has been progress in the talks over the last period. Progress has been made on setting a budget, implementing a programme for government and improving transparency and accountability, and these have been part of the round-table talks that have been convened. But clearly, as we go forward, we need to step up the intensity and inclusivity of the discussions, and that is what the Secretary of State will be working towards over the coming days and hours.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Kilclooney asked the Minister about joint rule but he did not comment on it in his reply. Will he now rule that out firmly?

[Lord Dunlop]

I have been asked that question in this House before and I will give the same reply that I gave then. We are committed to the Belfast agreement and the principle of consent. Northern Ireland remains a full part of the UK and joint authority would be incompatible with that principle of consent.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned in the Statement public services, the community and the voluntary sector. What is his assessment of the uncertainty that the present situation places on those vital services, which are often accessed by the most vulnerable in our Northern Irish society?

[Lord Dunlop]

The funding of these voluntary bodies and the public services is absolutely at the heart of why we need to make quick progress and why this process cannot go on indefinitely. Measures are in place that allow the Permanent Secretary of the Department of Finance to allocate cash, but political choices need to be made and that is why we require a fully functioning Executive to be in place.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the Secretary of State in avoiding—almost at all costs—direct rule, because it would be a massive and possibly irreversible setback. Equally, I support there being no second election, because everybody agrees that that would solve absolutely nothing. In common with my noble friend Lord Murphy of Torfaen, who is unable to be here this afternoon, I remain puzzled as to why there has been no direct prime ministerial involvement—a point raised by my noble friend Lord McAvoy. The Minister hinted that the times are very different. They may be in one sense but in another they are not. The truth is that at times in the past the Prime Minister’s direct involvement, calling a summit at Hillsborough Castle or wherever it may be together with the Taoiseach, has been crucial in breaking the gridlock and bringing parties together, enabling them to find a solution they were not able to find on their own. I put that again to the Minister. The Prime Minister may be busy on other things such as Brexit but I suggest that there is nothing more important on her agenda than keeping the peace process in Northern Ireland moving forward. If it stalled and in any sense went into reverse, that could be very dangerous.

[Lord Dunlop]

First, I agree with the noble Lord about the importance of maintaining the forward momentum of the peace process. As the Statement says, and as the Secretary of State said in the House of Commons, we do not detect any appetite for a second election—the issues would remain to be resolved and it would merely prolong a period of uncertainty and disruption. On the involvement of the Prime Minister, as I have already said, she is actively involved and engaged, dealing directly with the Taoiseach. She and the Taoiseach have mandated my right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary and the Irish Foreign Minister to take forward supporting and facilitating the discussions with the parties. That will happen over the coming hours and days as we seek a resolution to these issues.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I want to emphasise the importance of both the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach being seen to be working together with the parties. The symbolism of that, as well as the practicality, is extremely important. I put to the Minister again the question that my noble friend Lady Suttie put. In the preparations for whatever outcome there is post-Easter, will the noble Lord and his colleagues at the Northern Ireland Office consider the possibility of the Assembly continuing even if the Executive Ministers are not in place? In that way there would be an elected body with which Northern Ireland Office Ministers and other Ministers could consult, with Members duly elected and their leaders, particularly about the question of Brexit as well as that of general devolution.

[Lord Dunlop]

As the Statement sets out, the focus and priority are seeking to get the Executive up and running. Of course, should that not succeed, we will look carefully at all the options as we go forward.

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the announcement by the Minister that he will be bringing forward legislation after Easter. I suggest that that legislation should be fairly comprehensive in providing for a number of scenarios. It might also be a good idea to do something unusual or a little different—the suggestion mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is worth considering. The Minister might like to consider that the joint ministerial council is not a creature of statute and that it could operate with a slightly different membership than it has done hitherto.

[Lord Dunlop]

I will certainly reflect on what my noble friend has said. As is clear from the Statement, our focus is on getting the parties round the table to agree the outstanding issues so that we can form an Executive at the end of this window of opportunity. That must be the focus of our efforts at present.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, one of the few positive elements that the Minister was able to give us this afternoon was his reference to progress on accountability and transparency in government, the absence of which played a role in the generation of the scandal that has been so damaging to the institutions. Will he say a little more about what the parties have agreed, or may be in the process of agreeing, to enhance the accountability and transparency of the work of the Executive should they return, as we all hope that they will?

[Lord Dunlop]

As the discussions are ongoing I do not want to talk about what must necessarily be confidential discussions. However, I know of the noble Lord’s long-standing interest in this subject and would merely reiterate that there has been progress on these issues in the immediate preceding period.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, the Statement spoke about the parties coming together to deal with the Brexit situation. Is it, as a matter of fact, the position that the people of Northern Ireland still have the statutory right to organise a referendum on their constitutional position, unlike Scotland which does not have that right unless it is granted? Is that now the legal position? I declare an interest as a Minister who took the original Northern Ireland referendum Bill through the House of Commons in 1972.

[Lord Dunlop]

Under the Belfast agreement, arrangements are set out for the circumstances in which a border poll could be held. However, the Secretary of State has made it clear that the conditions for such a poll are not currently satisfied.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister remind us how long the Secretary of State has to go on negotiating, as is highly desirable? Is there a point at which he is obliged to bring that to a halt and go for one of the other options?

[Lord Dunlop]

The Secretary of State has made it clear that there is a period between now and Easter—when obviously the House of Commons will be in recess. What determines the timescale is the very clear statement that, if we can get agreement, when the House returns legislation can then be introduced, as set out in the Statement.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

The Statement was most regrettable and unfortunate but not surprising. It may be useful for the House to know that at no point during the three-week period of negotiations were all parties invited to the table at the same time—not a single meeting of all the parties took place. As far as agreements are concerned, there are no agreements because nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. There has certainly been some progress, but not enough. Will the Minister keep an open mind when it comes to the steps that may have to be taken at the end of this period, whatever that period is—probably the end of April? The Government must use their imagination to ensure that the institutions survive with the north-south and east-west bodies that are attached to them, which is particularly significant in terms of the implications for Brexit and our relationship with the Irish Republic at this difficult time. Will the Government keep an open mind and look at examples of things that could be opened up to make sure that our number one priority is the maintenance of the institutions?

[Lord Dunlop]

I say to my noble friend that, as the Statement said, should the talks fail in their objectives, the Government will have to consider all options. It would be right to keep an open mind at this point on those.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Who is taking the day-to-day decisions that would have been taken by Ministers? They are not all long term: many of them are day to day. It must self-evidently be civil servants, who are not elected and not accountable. They cannot be accountable to the Assembly and that is a mistake. That is not in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland. My experience is limited to one year and that was 10 years ago, but direct rule is not a threat to some people in Northern Ireland. I drew the distinct impression at the time I was there, just for a year with my noble friend, that many people were quite happy with direct rule because it locked Northern Ireland into the UK in a very solid way. If we were to go back to direct rule, the chances are, as my noble friend said, we would never get out of it. It should not be contemplated and some other innovative way should be found. The fact is that someone is taking decisions over people’s lives at the moment, whether they are on planning, benefits or whatever, that Ministers would take on a day-to-day basis. Who is doing that?

[Lord Dunlop]

I agree with the noble Lord. I have the highest regard for the Civil Service, but I am sure that we would all agree that elected politicians should be taking decisions about public services and public spending. With regard to direct rule, our experience in the past has been that, when the institutions are suspended and we move into a period of direct rule, we have not come out of that period quickly. We have seen huge progress made in Northern Ireland with 10 years of unbroken devolved government, and that is why the people of Northern Ireland voted so overwhelmingly in the last election to see those strong and inclusive devolved institutions continue.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, there seems to be no appetite for direct rule. There is no appetite for an Assembly under the current terms, and there is no appetite for the parties to get together around a table. So in those circumstances, is two weeks long enough or do we need to go well beyond Easter in terms of negotiations before we move to direct rule? I must contradict the noble Lord, from the Cross Benches—that is not a good idea.

[Lord Dunlop]

We have been able to create this window of opportunity, but it is only a window. This cannot drag on indefinitely, for the reasons that I have said. Decisions need to be taken about the budget and the allocation of the budget. As the Statement says, there is a need to set a regional rate and that binds the time period in which we are operating.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, while I accept up to a point what my noble friend has said, having seen it at first hand, can I stress that a prime ministerial presence in Belfast can be of enormous importance in bringing the parties together? I was shocked by what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said about the parties not having been brought together. Could not the Prime Minister be urged to invite all the relevant parties to Hillsborough? If we do not get this right, it could be a disaster for the union.

[Lord Dunlop]

I understand what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said. It is a matter of fact that there have been round-table discussions on issues like the Programme for Government and budget setting which were chaired by the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. As regards the process going forward, that is something which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is actively exploring with the parties and no doubt he will make further statements on that.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, can the noble Lord confirm that if no acceptable compromise is reached over the next few weeks and if the situation seems to be such that we are spiralling towards direct rule, would Her Majesty’s Government, in conjunction with the other interested parties, consider inviting a statesman of international renown such as Senator George Mitchell or indeed former President Bill Clinton to intercede in the hope that this perilous impasse can be avoided?

[Lord Dunlop]

I do not want to speculate on what might happen afterwards. Our focus is on the talks that we want to hold in the hours and days ahead.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement but I have to say that it is extremely disappointing that an Executive in Northern Ireland has not been formed so that eventually we could have a strong and stable government. We see former Secretaries of State here in this House. These are complex issues and they have been challenging parties in Northern Ireland for about 20 years. Sometimes there is a belief among Peers that these issues have been around for only the past five or 10 years. That is not the case, they go back 20 years. However, there is an opportunity for the Prime Minister to get involved. I know that she has been actively involved behind the scenes, but I think that her presence in Northern Ireland at this time would help the process. The Prime Minister had agreed to visit the other regions of the United Kingdom before she triggers Article 50, so I would ask the Minister whether the Prime Minister still intends to come to Northern Ireland before doing so. I think that such a visit could help the process. Her presence in Northern Ireland would do that.

[Lord Dunlop]

I do not want to repeat what I have said already about the Prime Minister’s involvement and I am afraid that I am not privy to her forward diary, so I cannot answer the noble Lord’s question directly.

Scottish Independence Referendum

Lord Dunlop Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what response has been given to the Scottish First Minister in response to her request for a further referendum on Scottish independence.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, a little over two years ago people in Scotland voted decisively to remain part of our United Kingdom in a referendum. The UK Government remain of the view that there should not be a further referendum on independence. Even at this late hour we call on the Scottish Government to take it off the table. Another referendum would be divisive and cause huge economic uncertainty at the worst possible time.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I should declare that I lived in Scotland for many years and was educated there. Does the Minister not agree that, to give clarity to the people of Scotland, if a referendum is allowed it is essential that it is held after the Brexit negotiations are completed, not in the midst of complex negotiations with no ability whatever to understand the implications of the detailed agreements being worked on?

[Lord Dunlop]

I am sure that the noble Lord received a very good Scottish education. Regarding the negotiations, Nicola Sturgeon said yesterday that she wanted the UK to get a good deal. I can think of nothing more calculated to undermine the achievement of a good deal than holding a divisive and disruptive independence referendum during the last six months of one of the most important peacetime negotiations this country has ever faced. At this time we should be working together to get the best possible deal for the whole of the UK and each part of it, particularly Scotland.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, I was in a rush because I understand I have only a minute or so. The most important point is that there is no desire in Scotland for another referendum. It is simply not in Scotland’s best interest, especially not at a time when we need stability and a period of relative calm, not yet more uncertainty. Before the 2014 vote the SNP said that the referendum was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and promised that it would abide by the result. The fact is that ever since it lost in 2014 the SNP has been agitating for another referendum and will seize upon any excuse. Scottish Labour MSPs will oppose a second referendum in the Scottish Parliament, but if it is successful and comes here the Labour Party will not oppose it. But we certainly call on tough negotiations—tougher than the last time—over the timing and the question, because it is quite clear that Mr Alex Salmond ran rings around the then Prime Minister. If the Government want any advice on negotiations, I am available.

[Lord Dunlop]

I know that the noble Lord’s reputation goes before him, so I thank him for that offer. I strongly agree with what he said. We must respect the result of the independence referendum that took place in 2014. As Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon said, it was a once-in-a-generation vote. Both sides signed the Edinburgh agreement, which committed to respect that result. Only two-and-a-half years after that vote, which was won by more than 10 points—a result that was fair, legal and decisive—the First Minister is now calling for another vote. All the evidence is quite clear that people in Scotland overwhelmingly do not want another divisive, disruptive referendum. They know the damage that it would do to the Scottish economy and Scottish jobs, taking the eye off the ball of the domestic agenda: schools, hospitals and getting the economy going again. That is what we should focus on.

[Lord Stephen (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is no justification for a second independence referendum and that the best way for that to be made clear is for the UK Government to make a simple, clear statement to the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people on that issue? It is not what people in Scotland want, not now nor after Brexit. The SNP should stand by the Edinburgh agreement and stick to their word—that this was once in a generation, not a “neverendum” to be repeated and repeated. What we on these Benches and the people of Scotland want is a Scottish Government focusing on better outcomes for the people of Scotland on health and education, not what is best for the SNP and its obsession with independence.

[Lord Dunlop]

The UK Government and the Prime Minister could not be clearer: we do not think there that should be a further referendum on independence, for all the reasons that the noble Lord and others have given. Even at this late stage, the Scottish Government can and should take that referendum off the table.

[Lord Lang of Monkton (Con)]

My Lords, should we not remind the First Minister of Scotland that the Prime Minister is Prime Minister of Scotland as well as of the rest of the United Kingdom and that the worst possible way to help her get the best deal for the United Kingdom and for Scotland within it is to attack her at the outset of these important negotiations?

[Lord Dunlop]

I very much agree with my noble friend. The Prime Minister will work tirelessly to secure the best possible deal for the whole UK and, as she has said, for every part of it. This is a time to work together to that end, not to sow division and difference.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, in the past half-hour, I have received an email from a leading player in the Scottish commercial property market to say that, overnight, £50 million worth of deals have been withdrawn as a consequence of the possibility of a Scottish referendum. Does the Minister agree with me that, when the Scottish economy is already weakened, when we are seriously troubled about our education and our health sectors, the First Minister’s action is one of unpardonable folly?

[Lord Dunlop]

Yes, I agree with the noble Baroness. I meet many Scottish businesses and have yet to find one which thinks that it is a good idea to engender such uncertainty by calling for another independence referendum. It should be a matter of concern for all of us that the economic data for Scotland show that the Scottish economy is lagging behind the rest of the UK. Those data started coming out before the vote last June. It is a matter that we should attend to. The UK Government are committed to working with the Scottish Government to focus on those issues, which are so important for the Scottish economy.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Has the Minister noticed, however, that the arguments being used by Nicola Sturgeon for pulling Scotland out of the United Kingdom are exactly the same as those used by Theresa May for pulling the United Kingdom out of the European Union? Does that not create a problem for the Government?

[Lord Dunlop]

The problem for us is an SNP Government, with their one-track mind, using the pretext of Brexit to pursue their obsession with taking Scotland out of the United Kingdom. We know that the UK market is worth four times more to Scottish businesses than the EU market.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, in view of the unexpected taciturnity of the noble Lord, Lord West, would the Minister care to hazard a guess as to the consequences for warship building on the Clyde in the event of independence?

[Lord West of Spithead]

Hurrah!

[Lord Dunlop]

Some very positive investment announcements have been made regarding the Clyde. It is the centre of excellence for surface warship building and that would not happen if Scotland were ripped out of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, is it not the case that nationalists in Northern Ireland have welcomed the decision of the Scottish Government, and are now trying to see whether they could have a pincer movement and have both referenda at the same time? Is it not clear that the Government are going to have to take a much more robust position? Will the Minister confirm that neither a Scottish referendum nor a Northern Ireland border poll will be held?

[Lord Dunlop]

I have made the position on a Scottish referendum absolutely clear. With regard to Northern Ireland, there are clear mechanisms under the Belfast agreement for the holding of a border poll. My right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary has been very clear that the conditions for such a poll do not exist.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords—

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

The last referendum left a deep legacy in Scotland of division that affected families, friendships and communities. During that referendum, there was regularly a real problem of aggression and, occasionally, violence. Can the Government guarantee that, in any discussions that take place over these next two years about the possibility of another referendum in Scotland, they will keep uppermost in their mind the need to ensure that any debates are conducted properly and that the leadership of those debates behaves in a way that inspires people positively?

[Lord Dunlop]

All political debates should take place with courtesy and respect; the Government would obviously want to promote and uphold that. The key question here, however, is whether there should be another Scottish independence referendum. The Government are absolutely clear that there should not be.

Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017

Lord Dunlop Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2017 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Dunlop]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop)]

My Lords, it may be helpful at the outset to remind the Committee of the context of this order. Its origins can be found in the tragic death in 2005 of two year-old Andrew Morton after he was shot in the head with an air rifle. His parents campaigned for “Andrew’s law” to ban air weapons in Scotland.

Such deaths are mercifully rare but attacks continue to happen. Air weapons accounted for almost half—158—of all offences allegedly involving a firearm in Scotland in 2015-16. The all-party Calman commission examined the regulation of bearing weapons as part of its wide-ranging review of the Scotland Act 1998. When the commission reported in 2009, one of its recommendations was that the regulation of certain air weapons be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. This recommendation was included in the Scotland Act 2012, which made amendments to the Scotland Act 1998. Provision to devolve the regulation of certain air weapons was set out in Section 10 of the 2012 Act.

In addition to the scrutiny that the 2012 Act had in the House, the Committee may recall that a number of noble Lords were members of the Calman commission: my noble friends Lord Selkirk and Lord Lindsay, the noble and learned Lords, Lord Boyd of Duncansby and Lord Wallace of Tankerness, and the noble Lord, Lord Elder.

The Scottish Parliament used its new powers in this area to enact the Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015, which I shall refer to as the 2015 Act. It received Royal Assent on 4 August 2015, having been passed by the Scottish Parliament on 25 June 2015. Andrew Morton’s parents welcomed this new legislation. The 2015 Act introduces a new licensing regime for air weapons to maintain controls over the use, possession, purchase and acquisition of such weapons in Scotland. It broadly follows the principles and practices of existing firearms legislation that apply across Great Britain by setting out the air weapons which need to be licensed; allowing a fit person to obtain and use an air weapon in a regulated way, without compromising public safety; and setting out appropriate and proportionate enforcement powers and penalties to deal with any person who contravenes the new regime.

It is notable that, in advance of the new regime coming into force on 31 December 2016, almost 19,000 unwanted air weapons were surrendered to Police Scotland for secure destruction.

The order I present to your Lordships today is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary or expedient legislative provision in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. The order will enable Part 1 of the 2015 Act to be implemented in full by making the following consequential amendments to reserved legislation which extends across Great Britain, namely the Firearms Act 1968. It will make it an offence for a pawnbroker in Scotland to take an air weapon in pawn and it will impose penalties for this offence. It will allow a court in England and Wales to cancel, in certain circumstances, any air weapon certificate granted to a person under the 2015 Act. This extends the court’s existing powers to cancel a firearm certificate or shotgun certificate held by a person appearing before it. It will also allow a court in Scotland to order the forfeiture or disposal of any firearm—other than an air weapon—or ammunition found in the possession of a person convicted of an air weapon offence.

The UK and Scottish Governments, Ministers and officials have worked together to ensure that this order makes the necessary amendments to the Firearms Act 1968 in consequence of Part 1 of the 2015 Act. It represents the final step in the implementation of the new Scottish licensing regime for air weapons that will tighten controls over the use, possession, purchase and acquisition of such weapons in Scotland. I commend the order to the Committee.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his customary logic and clarity in telling us about the proposed statutory instrument. I declare an interest: I have a firearm certificate from Police Scotland and I own an air gun. It is relevant to later in my short remarks that I bought it second-hand for £25. Living as I do in rural Scotland, I can tell the Committee that probably most homes in my area either own an air gun or have done so at some point.

I should make clear that everything I shall say in no way challenges the fact of the devolution of powers, or the fact that the licensing regime has been introduced. However, some people have expressed to me the opinion that the licensing regime is disproportionate, badly cast and impractical, and, having looked into, it I have some concerns.

The British Association for Shooting and Conservation has 144,000 members; I am not one of them. Around 12,000 members are Scottish. The BASC has given a briefing paper to all its members, from which I will read the concluding paragraph. I preface that by saying that at the start of this process there were an estimated 500,000 air guns in Scotland: that puts the figure of 19,000 into context. The report, Air Gun Licensing in Scotland a Costly and Bureaucratic Mistake, states:

“Currently, 60,000 people in Scotland already hold firearms licences. Increasing the licensing requirement to cover hundreds of thousands of people in Scotland plus visitors will place existing Police Scotland licensing staff under a massive administrative burden when offences have fallen significantly and the police are subject to pressure on both budgets and staffing”.


As the Minister pointed out, version 1.0 of the Guide to Air Weapon Licensing in Scotland of June 2016 states that the whole thing will broadly follow the principles and practices of existing firearms legislation. That is pretty onerous. There are seven different forms that you can fill out but the main form is number one; it is 12 pages long and includes lots of questions about health and about security in the home.

There is a warning that if you answer a health question with a problem, your GP will be contacted. The security questions at home are, of course, very similar to those in the firearms questionnaires that I fill out, which result quite rightly in visits to homes. With hundreds of thousands of people needing to apply for these licences, with warnings that GPs may be contacted and security may need to be checked in homes, and with a 12-page form that needs to be processed, my concerns reach not just to the BASC’s worries about the pressure on Police Scotland but to needless pressures on the National Health Service. GPs will not know everything and will have look in their files, as they will—I presume—have to write a report to say that a person is suitable for a licence. The cost of the licence is also quite a lot; it is £72 for someone aged over 18. Admittedly it is only £50 for a 14 year-old, but I put that against my original purchase of a £25 air gun.

The function of this House is scrutiny and the weapon we have is to ask the Government to think again. Of course, in recent days we have seen ourselves do that in a very public way. My question is: where we see something like this in the underlying legislation—something that I feel to be impractical and, in the round, bad news for the people of Scotland and disproportionate—should we just wave through a statutory instrument or should we ask the devolved Administration to think again? I have carefully reviewed the underlying Act—I have it here on my iPad—and I think it would be possible with the Act to have a much simpler system, which would be cheaper and would not use up the resources of Police Scotland or of the National Health Service in Scotland, and yet would give some element of comfort to make sure that the horrible crimes that can occur with these things are lessons. I would be very grateful for the Minister’s comments on this underlying constitutional issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for his usual clear and, as has been said, logical exposition of what is entailed in this SI. It allows the Scottish Government to more effectively regulate the possession, purchase and acquisition of air weapons in Scotland, as set out in Part 1 of the Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015. The tragic background to this initiative—how it all started—is well known in Scotland. Government as a whole must take credit for responding to public concern and campaigns, because when we stop reflecting public opinion, we end up in trouble.

I do not have an interest to declare now but my first job when I left school was in a pawnshop. Pawnshops were a necessary part of the economic life and survival of the working class in the west of Scotland. I enjoyed my time there but unfortunately it entailed working all day Saturday. As the pawnshop was within three-quarters of a mile of Celtic Park, I could hear every goal getting cheered while I was working away in the shop, unable to witness them. After a year and a half I left the pawnshop and went to work in a place where I could get Saturday afternoons off to go and see my favourite football team.

The order makes it an offence,

“for a pawnbroker to take in pawn an air weapon”,

and will ensure that pawnbrokers are held accountable to the law by imposing penalties of up to three months’ imprisonment, or a level 3 fine, on those who break it. When I worked in the pawnshop, we had regular visits from the police checking up on jewellery and other items that might not have been honestly acquired before being pawned. There was pressure on the manager of the pawnshop to comply with this. The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, mentioned administrative burdens, but my question is: has any work been done with the National Pawnbrokers Association to ensure that the new offence is widely communicated to those who will be affected? There are still pawnbrokers around and it will mean administration for them.

The provisions also allow for courts in Scotland,

“to order the forfeiture or disposal of any firearm or ammunition found in the possession”,

of a person convicted of an air weapon offence. Again, this is very welcome as it will ensure that persons convicted of air weapon offences will be covered by further measures protecting public safety. I know that the noble Earl has specific concerns about rural areas. My experience and my concerns relate to some of the abuses that were mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead. I witnessed many of these when I was a boy and I always wondered why air weapons were allowed to be so easily acquired.

We commend the consequential provisions that will allow for the smooth further operation of the Scottish air weapon-licensing regime and contribute to a safer, more consistent firearms policy in Scotland. We welcome this measure.

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate for their general support for the order. Perhaps I could take some time to address specifically the substantive points that the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, has raised. He essentially raised two main points: the first relates to whether the regime is proportionate and the second to whether the Section 104 process could be used to ask the Scottish Parliament to think again about this or any other measure.

On the first point, we need to accept that responsibility for the regulation of certain air weapons in Scotland is now a matter for the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Ministers. The Scottish Government carried out detailed consultation on the main air weapon licensing proposals before the Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Bill was introduced. The issue of air weapons licensing has been fully debated in the Scottish Parliament, and it is absolutely right that Scottish Ministers are held to account for the decisions they take by the elected representatives in that Parliament. Of course, UK government departments with responsibility for the relevant reserved legislation, notably the Home Office, which this order affects, were consulted during its drafting and it was approved by them.

The appropriateness of the new regime is an important issue. I understand that the Scottish Government worked closely with the Police Service of Scotland and, notwithstanding what the noble Earl said, with representatives of the main shooting organisations to ensure that the new licensing processes are as familiar as possible and appropriate to the lethality of the weapons affected. For example, there are currently more than 51,000 firearm or shotgun certificate holders in Scotland and it is expected that the majority of them, like the noble Earl, will also hold air weapons. So checks on existing firearm or shotgun certificate holders are not duplicated if they also apply for an air weapons certificate. Existing certificate holders can apply for a coterminous air weapons certificate to align with their existing licence.

The noble Earl mentioned the £72 fee for the full five-year air weapons certificate. There is also a reduced fee of £5 for firearm or shotgun holders who want to align their certificates to expire at the same time. Home visits to applicants will be required in only a small number of cases. Similarly, there will not be an automatic requirement for background medical reports on air weapons applicants; these will be required only in a small number of cases. As a result, the impact on NHS resources should be minimal. While the licensing regime is founded on the pre-existing firearms legislation, I hope that the examples I have given demonstrate the efforts that have been made to ensure the provisions are appropriate.

Turning to the noble Earl’s second point, it would not be an appropriate use of the Section 104 process to force the Scottish Parliament to think again about legislation it has passed in an area of its own competence, and which is now in force. We are today merely looking at consequential amendments to reserved legislation and were we to decline to pass this order, it would lead to gaps in the law. It would also set a very unhelpful precedent for managing intergovernmental relations—a subject in which I know the noble Earl takes a close interest—where mutual co-operation is so important, not least when it comes to reserved legislation that impacts on the devolved settlements or the devolved competence of Scottish Ministers.

The issue of pawnshops was raised. The licensing regime regulates trade in air weapons and to trade in those weapons, you must be a registered firearms dealer. Pawnshops are not registered firearms dealers, so this matches the existing Firearms Act 1968 position.

I was interested to hear the history of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, in relation to pawnshops. Consultation and making pawnshops aware of this legislation and their duties under it are obviously a matter for the Scottish Government. I do not have at my fingertips what work has been done to make them aware of it, but I am happy to follow up on that.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, mentioned an exclusion. I am not sure I have the detail on this, but if I do not have it to hand I will be happy to write to him. I think it mirrors the position of other firearms in the 1968 Act, but I am happy to clarify that further.

[Lord Hope of Craighead]

If I may return to the point I raised earlier, if the offence is committed by the owner of the pawnshop, it seems odd that the authorities have no means of taking possession of the weapon. I would have thought it would be very sensible if they could. However, I quite understand that I am asking a question that may not be capable of being answered immediately. If the Minister could write to me later, I would be very happy with that.

[Lord Dunlop]

I think that issue came up when this order was debated in the House of Commons. If I have got this wrong, I will clarify it, but if the courts find that the weapon is wrongly in someone’s possession then clearly it is a matter for them to confiscate that weapon. It would be normal practice for the court to order the forfeiture or confiscation of a weapon, which would be securely destroyed by the authorities in a way that would put the weapon out of use. However, I am not sure that that is the circumstance the noble and learned Lord is referring to, so I will be happy to write to him to clarify the point.

Motion agreed.

Scottish Fiscal Commission Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2017

Lord Dunlop Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Dunlop]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Scottish Fiscal Commission Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2017.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft order laid before the House on 19 December 2016 now be considered. The background to this order is the Smith commission agreement and the Scotland Act 2016, which gave the Scottish Parliament significant new tax and welfare powers with responsibility for nearly £21 billion devolved and assigned tax revenues and more than £2 billion in demand-led welfare spending. Indeed, in future more than 50% of the Scottish Government’s budget will come from revenues raised in Scotland.

It is perhaps appropriate that we are debating this order today—the day on which the Scottish Parliament is, for the first time, setting income tax rates and bands for Scotland. It is therefore important that, also for the first time, there will be independent forecasts and analysis of the spending revenues within the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament, something to which your Lordships’ House attached great importance during the passage of the Scotland Act. It was also a key objective for the UK Government in the fiscal framework negotiations with the Scottish Government.

Prior to this point, the Scottish Fiscal Commission has merely scrutinised and commented upon forecasts produced by the Scottish Government. This order is therefore made in consequence of the Scottish Fiscal Commission Act 2016, which I shall refer to as the 2016 Act. It was passed by the Scottish Parliament on 10 March 2016 and received Royal Assent on 14 April 2016. The purpose of the 2016 Act was to establish the Scottish Fiscal Commission as a body corporate and to provide for its functions. These include preparing forecasts and assessments to inform the Scottish budget and a duty to co-operate with the Office for Budget Responsibility, so far as is necessary for it to perform its functions. The commission has a board of three commissioners, chaired by Susan Rice—Lady Rice—formerly CEO of Lloyds TSB Scotland, and it currently has a staff of 15. The impetus for the 2016 Act came from the fiscal framework agreement in February 2016 that set out the financial arrangements between the UK and Scottish Governments to underpin the new tax and spending powers in the Scotland Act 2016.

The commission was originally set up in 2014 as a non-statutory body with a main function of scrutinising the Scottish Government’s forecasts for tax revenues devolved to Scotland. From April 2017, the commission will become responsible for the production of forecasts on all revenue from fully devolved taxes and of income tax receipts arising from the rate-setting powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament. It will also produce forecasts of onshore Scottish GDP. This is important as under the fiscal framework agreement the Scottish Government are being given additional resource-borrowing powers, in part to assist in the management of any additional risks and volatility associated with extra devolution. The borrowing powers come into play if onshore Scottish GDP falls below certain trigger points.

This order is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary or expedient legislative provision in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. It will have UK extent and will enable the 2016 Act to be implemented in full. It contains provisions about the status of the commission and amends UK legislation which is not within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.

Article 2, for example, makes the commission part of the Scottish Administration, allowing for its designation as a non-ministerial department. The effect of this is that the commission will be accountable to the Scottish Parliament. Also, civil servants who work in the commission, which is currently a non-statutory body, will transfer to the new statutory commission and continue to be civil servants. The Civil Service is a reserved matter under Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, so it is not within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to enact such a transfer.

Article 3 reflects the fact that under the Crown Suits (Scotland) Act 1857 every action to be instituted in Scotland on behalf of, or against, an organisation in the Scottish Administration may be lawfully raised in the name of, or directed against, the Lord Advocate. In order to safeguard the perceived independence of the commission from the Scottish Government, Article 3 disapplies the 1857 Act so that the Lord Advocate, a member of the Scottish Government, should not represent the Commission.

Article 4 places an obligation on the Office for Budget Responsibility to co-operate with the commission. It is required to enable information sharing so far as it is necessary for the commission to fulfil its functions, and is a reciprocal duty to the one I mentioned earlier in the 2016 Act.

Finally, Article 5 amends the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975 to disqualify members of the Scottish Fiscal Commission from being Members of the House of Commons. This is to protect the independence and impartiality of the commission and mirrors similar provisions in the Scottish Parliament legislation regarding elected representatives.

The UK and Scottish Governments’ Ministers and officials have worked closely together to ensure that this order makes the necessary amendments to UK legislation in consequence of the 2016 Act and the fiscal framework agreement. I hope that noble Lords will agree that it represents a sensible and appropriate use of the powers in the Scotland Act. I commend the order to the Committee.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear and lucid presentation of the order. It is a step in the right direction that we on the Labour Benches welcome. It is commendable that both Governments have been able to come together to provide for independent scrutiny of Scottish Government finances. Noble Lords may be aware that some members of the Scottish Government were initially uncertain about the wisdom of setting up an independent body to scrutinise their work, and kept changing their minds. We are glad that they have been brought around to the idea.

As the Minister said, this measure emanates from the Smith commission. I am lucky enough at the moment to have the services of a Hansard intern, a young man from Latvia—one of the countries that escaped the Soviet yoke over the past few years—and he is interested in constitutional matters. The basis for this order is commendable in terms of the agreement reached, and the measure agreed must serve as a model for some constitutional change in different parts of the world. For the first time, there will be independent forecasts and analysis of the spending and revenues of the Scottish Parliament. This is incredibly significant because the Scotland Act 2016 turned the Scottish Parliament into one of the most powerful devolved Parliaments in the world. With that responsibility must come transparency, independent scrutiny and accountability.

This order is made as a consequence of the Scottish Fiscal Commission Act 2016, and enables the Act to be implemented in full. We welcome the reciprocal duty that this order places on the Office for Budget Responsibility to co-operate with the Scottish Fiscal Commission. Can the Minister say whether work is already under way to build structures for this co-operation between the two bodies, and whether the OBR is offering advice and guidance on recruitment and impartiality ahead of the Scottish Fiscal Commission’s expanded role?

This order embeds the newly empowered fiscal commission as part of the Scottish Administration and removes any uncertainty about its future. It builds a welcome infrastructure to ensure both current and future Governments are held to account. We look forward to the work the commission will do to shed light on Scottish Government finances now and for many years. This totally justifies the initial implementation of the Scotland Act 1998, which started us on the road to devolution. We welcome this measure.

[Lord Dunlop]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support for this order. He is right to point out that initially the Scottish Government were not persuaded of the need for the Scottish Fiscal Commission to undertake independent forecasting. This was one of the positive outcomes from the discussions in which he and I exchanged many views on the fiscal framework negotiations.

As to the provision of information and advice, the order enables and facilitates the provision of reciprocal information between the Scottish Fiscal Commission and the OBR, and I am sure that that will take place. The noble Lord is right to point out the importance of constituting a Scottish Fiscal Commission that is properly resourced with the right expertise. It is fair to say that there is a relatively small pool of people who have the expertise to carry out this technical forecasting and modelling. I am sure that discussions are going on to ensure that the Scottish Fiscal Commission has the right people to do what will be its important job of making these forecasts and ensuring that the information on which the Scottish Government take their decisions is well founded.

[Lord McAvoy]

I would like to clear my conscience. I mentioned the Latvian intern but did not mention his name. He is Mr Ralfs Beitans—I feel a bit guilty about using his work and not mentioning him. The Minister’s response indicates the level of co-operation and agreement that has existed between the two Front Benches to deliver a powerful Scottish Parliament, and I am grateful to the Minister for that.

[Lord Dunlop]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his excellent co-operation during this process. As I said during the passage of the Scotland Act, we will continue to return to this House and the other place to report on the progress of the fiscal framework.

Motion agreed.

Northern Ireland: Legacy Agreement

Lord Dunlop Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the remarks by Lord Dunlop on 18 January (HL Deb, col 218) that the “current situation is unsatisfactory”, what action they are taking to implement the legacy package of the Stormont House Agreement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, the current situation is unsatisfactory, focusing disproportionately on the 10% of deaths caused by the police and Armed Forces rather than on the 90% caused by terrorists. This Government are committed to implementing the legacy bodies proposed in the Stormont House agreement to ensure a balanced, proportionate and fair approach to addressing Northern Ireland’s past. The Secretary of State has regularly met political parties, victims and their representatives on these issues, and will continue to do so ahead of taking the proposals to a public phase.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted with the response from my noble friend the Minister. Successive Governments, over several decades, sent soldiers, including myself, to Northern Ireland to protect the population from terrorism and violence, be they Catholic or Protestant. Now, some 40 years and more later, old soldiers are being dragged before courts, although there is no new evidence against them. Given the lack of devolved government at the moment, could not Her Majesty’s Government impose the legacy package of the Stormont House agreement—after all, it has been agreed—leading to more proportionate legacy investigations? Secondly, in the particular case of Dennis Hutchins, which my noble friend may not wish to mention, he has been investigated on several occasions—the last time in 2013. He has been told that there is no case to answer, including by a previous Director of Public Prosecutions. Can the Minister perhaps explain how it can be that he is now being dragged before courts at the age of 75, when all his defence witnesses—former soldiers—have died?

[Lord Dunlop]

First, I recognise my noble friend’s great experience of these matters, having himself served, as he said, in the Armed Forces in Northern Ireland and as a Minister in the Northern Ireland Office. We remain unstinting in our admiration and support for the police and the Armed Forces. We clearly want to build consensus on the way forward on how to deal with the past. I do not think that it would be right to impose. We want to build that consensus, and that is what we will focus on in the weeks ahead.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, in dealing with the past, the Labour Party totally agrees with the Minister that there has to be a consensus. I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that, on balance, party contacts with Ministers during an election could prove too difficult. But the Secretary of State and his team should use the time, along with the Irish Government as guarantors, to prepare for a full reinstatement of Stormont. There is nothing more important than the restoration of Stormont so that the legacy issue can be carried forward with agreement. Does the Minister also agree that the Secretary of State should instigate proposals to facilitate this and be a driver in this process?

[Lord Dunlop]

Re-establishing a fully functioning Executive after the election is an absolute priority for the Government. As I have said in this House many times before, we will leave no stone unturned to achieve that. Dealing with legacy is absolutely one of those issues where we require fully functioning devolved institutions. We need to build on the discussions that the Secretary of State has already had with the political parties so that we can move forward as soon as we can after the election.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass (Ind UU)]

My Lords, amid the political turmoil and lack of decorum in the Northern Ireland Assembly and among its politicians, will the Government ensure their full support for Secretary of State Brokenshire in his responsibility to prevent Barra McGrory being allowed to intimidate and threaten the press, hence hindering people like me by the supposedly confidential instructions he has issued from his office? I point out for the benefit of those who do not know that Barra McGrory is the Northern Ireland Director of Public Prosecutions, was a one-time adviser to Adams and McGuinness and was the person who advocated that IRA terrorists should not be prosecuted for historical crimes.

[Lord Dunlop]

The DPP is independent, and prosecutorial decisions are independently taken. I do not think it would be right for me to comment further.

Northern Ireland: Devolved Powers

Lord Dunlop Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what provision has been made for the continuing operation of devolved powers in Northern Ireland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, following the resignation of Martin McGuinness last week, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has proposed a date for elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly on 2 March in accordance with his responsibilities under relevant legislation. As the Secretary of State made clear in Parliament yesterday, Northern Ireland needs strong and stable devolved government to continue implementing the Belfast agreement and its successors and to respond to the opportunities and challenges ahead.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, this is a grave moment for part of our country—our precious United Kingdom, as the Prime Minister described it yesterday. The people of Northern Ireland must surely be at the forefront of our thoughts on all sides, in both Houses of Parliament, at this time. Will the Government confirm that it is within the framework of the union, and that alone, that the rebuilding of political stability in Northern Ireland will take place? Will this Conservative and Unionist Government now give a clear commitment that the Irish Republic, a close and respected neighbour, will not be given an enhanced role in Ulster’s affairs, and there will be no moves whatever towards joint authority over Northern Ireland?

[Lord Dunlop]

My Lords, first, I take this opportunity to wish John Hume a happy 80th birthday today. As the House will know, he, along with my noble friend Lord Trimble. was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his role in the 1998 Belfast agreement. My noble friend Lord Lexden raises an important point. I can confirm that the Government remain fully committed to the Belfast agreement, including the principle of consent governing Northern Ireland’s constitutional position. It is on that basis that Northern Ireland is, and remains, a full part of the United Kingdom. Clearly, any form of joint authority would be incompatible with the consent principle. The Government’s priority remains to work intensively to ensure that, after the Assembly elections, strong and stable devolved government is re-established in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

Why is it that the Government give the distinct impression of being hands-off rather than hands-on during this escalating crisis? Clearly, the parties, since their relations have deteriorated so terribly, are not going to sort this out on their own, even after an election. It is vital that the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister convene meetings—whether summits or other gatherings—to bring the parties together, and that they do so with the Taoiseach as well. Regardless of joint sovereignty arguments, which are irrelevant in this, the Irish Government are very influential, must be brought in, and are a partner in the Good Friday agreement.

[Lord Dunlop]

I do not accept the premise of the noble Lord’s question. Both the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland have been very actively engaged in talking to the Taoiseach and the parties in Northern Ireland. We will continue to leave no stone unturned to ensure that we are in the best possible position after the election to re-establish a fully functioning Executive.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

The Minister will be aware that just before this major crisis broke, the Northern Ireland Office issued a document on the issue of the donations to political parties, which are private and secret matters in Northern Ireland, for very good historic reasons. It is now calling for a consultation, giving the impression that it wants to review policy in this area. Does the Minister agree that, in fact, it is the suspicions in and around donations related to this great financial scandal which complicate the matter? Will the Northern Ireland Office carry on this work despite the fact that there are many other grave matters at this time?

[Lord Dunlop]

I agree very much with the noble Lord that this is an important matter. Indeed, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland wrote recently to all the political parties in Northern Ireland to seek their views on it by 31 January, so that we are in a position to move forward with this once we have had the election.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a well-known fact that it can never be too early to start discussions regarding problems and issues in Northern Ireland. Notwithstanding the fact that an election will now take place, can the Minister confirm whether the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is willing to consult with all political parties in Northern Ireland during the election process, so as to pave the way, hopefully, for that Assembly to operate, once it is elected?

[Lord Dunlop]

I do think that it is important to keep open the lines of communication with the parties throughout the election period for precisely the reason that the noble Lord gives. We need to have an open dialogue so that we are in the best possible position to re-establish a strong and stable devolved Government after the poll in a few weeks’ time.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, will this hiatus allow the Government to take forward in any way the legacy package of the Stormont House agreement? Former police officers went out to serve in Northern Ireland to protect both sides of the community and are being prosecuted disproportionately compared to the terrorists whom they were protecting the community from.

[Lord Dunlop]

I very much agree with my noble friend. The current situation is unsatisfactory and it remains a priority for the Government to build a consensus on this issue and to find a way forward. The Stormont House agreement provides a framework for reform and the new institutions and will, we believe, provide a fairer, more balanced and proportionate way forward.

Northern Ireland Assembly Election

Lord Dunlop Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

Mr Speaker, with permission I will repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the other place. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, with permission, I should like to make a Statement regarding the forthcoming elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly.

As the House is aware, Martin McGuinness resigned as Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland on Monday 9 January, as a result of which the First Minister also ceased to hold office. This began a seven-day period in which to fill both positions, otherwise it would fall to me to fulfil my statutory obligations as Secretary of State to call a fresh election to the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Over the past week, I have engaged intensively with Northern Ireland’s political parties to establish whether any basis existed to resolve the tensions within the Executive without triggering an election. I have remained in close contact with the Irish Foreign Minister, Charlie Flanagan. In addition, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has also been kept fully informed and has had conversations with the former First and Deputy First Ministers and with the Taoiseach, Enda Kenny.

Regrettably, and despite all our collective efforts, it has not proved possible to find an agreed way forward in the time available. In the Northern Ireland Assembly yesterday, the Democratic Unionist Party nominated Arlene Foster as First Minister, while Sinn Fein declined to nominate anybody to the post of Deputy First Minister. While I have some discretion in law over the setting of a date of an election, given the circumstances in which we find ourselves in Northern Ireland, I can see no case for delay. As a result, once the final deadline had passed at 5 pm yesterday, I proposed Thursday 2 March as the date of the Assembly election. The Assembly itself will be dissolved from 26 January, meaning that the last sitting day will be 25 January, allowing time to conduct any urgent remaining business before the election campaign begins in earnest.

I am now taking forward the process of submitting an Order in Council for approval by Her Majesty the Queen, on the advice of the Privy Council, formally setting in law the dates for both Dissolution and the election. In setting these dates, I have consulted the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland, and he has given me assurance on operational matters relating to the running of the election. The decisions that I have taken have also been informed by my ongoing discussions with Northern Ireland’s political leadership.

All right honourable and honourable Members in this House will understand that elections, by their nature, are hotly contested. That is part of the essence of our democracy, and nobody expects the debates around the key issues in Northern Ireland to be anything less than robust. I would, however, stress the following. This election is about the future of Northern Ireland and its political institutions: not just the Assembly, but all of the arrangements that have been put in place to reflect relationships throughout these islands. That is why it will be vital for the campaign to be conducted respectfully and in ways that do not simply exacerbate tensions and division.

Once the campaign is over, we need to be in a position to re-establish strong and stable devolved government in Northern Ireland, and let me be very clear that I am not contemplating any outcome other than the re-establishment of strong and stable devolved government. For all the reasons I set out in my Statement last week, devolution remains this Government’s strongly preferred option for Northern Ireland. It is about delivering a better future for the people of Northern Ireland and meeting their expectations. For our part, the UK Government will continue to stand by our commitments under the Belfast agreement and its successors, and we will do all that we can to safeguard political stability.

Over the past decade, Northern Ireland has enjoyed the longest run of unbroken devolved government since before the demise of the old Stormont Parliament in 1972. It has not always been easy, with more than a few bumps in the road. But with strong leadership, issues that might once have brought the institutions down have been resolved through dialogue. Northern Ireland has been able to present itself to the world in a way that would have been unrecognisable a few years ago: a modern, dynamic and outward-looking Northern Ireland that is a great place to live, work, invest and do business.

Northern Ireland has come so far, and we cannot allow the gains that have been made to be derailed. So yes, we have an election, but once this election is over we need to be in a position to continue building a Northern Ireland that works for everyone. That is the responsibility on all of us, and we all need to rise to that challenge. In that spirit, I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, and I too very much regret that it has not been possible to find a way through the current crisis.

Northern Ireland has come such a very long way since the dark days of the Troubles. A great many people, including many Members of your Lordships’ House, have worked tirelessly, made sacrifices and accepted compromises to ensure that there is now a generation of young people in Northern Ireland who have grown up without the daily threat from terrorism. Like the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland I very much hope that, after the inevitable cut and thrust of the forthcoming election campaign, we can return full-heartedly to this process.

However, the incident in Poleglass at the weekend, where a viable explosive device was discovered, serves as an all-too-clear reminder that this process cannot be taken for granted. I take a moment to pay tribute to the PSNI officers and the Army bomb disposal team who worked in the area to ensure the safety of the local community.

I share the concern expressed by many in recent days that the forthcoming election campaign risks further entrenching division and increasing mistrust between the political parties in the Assembly. Northern Ireland now faces extremely important and difficult negotiations over Brexit—perhaps more so because of the Statement earlier today.

Now, more than ever, the people of Northern Ireland need a strong, functioning Government to ensure that their voice is heard. To that end, can the Minister guarantee that the Secretary of State will continue to consult all political parties in Northern Ireland on Brexit during the election period? Will he consider convening discussion with all political parties, as well as the wider community, in a format that will allow the proper space for informed thinking and debate to ensure the best outcome for all the people of Northern Ireland in the Brexit negotiations?

Finally, will the Minister ensure that there is no delay in establishing an independent inquiry into the RHI scheme? Such an inquiry is desperately needed to help to restore confidence and trust in politics in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Dunlop]

My Lords, I say first how grateful I am for the comments of the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. I understand the disappointment that will be felt on all sides of the House and all sides of the community in Northern Ireland at the situation that we find ourselves in. I give an absolute assurance to the House that the Secretary of State is aware of his responsibility to continue to take matters forward and seek a resolution. I echo the tribute that the noble Baroness paid to the security services and the PSNI, which do so much to keep all the community in Northern Ireland safe.

I also welcome the support of the parties opposite for the need to work together to re-establish strong devolved government in Northern Ireland. The Government are in absolutely no doubt that strong devolved government is in the interests of everyone in Northern Ireland. It is incumbent on all of us to use the time between now and election day to maintain an open dialogue and consider how best to bring people back together once the election is over. In that regard the issue of engagement with the Irish Government was raised and, yes, of course the Government will maintain very close contact with the Irish Government so that we all use our good offices to seek resolution of these very challenging issues.

In the 10 years that Northern Ireland has enjoyed devolved government we have all seen the great strides made, and we owe a duty to the people of Northern Ireland to build on that progress. The UK Government are committed to doing that constructively and positively. As is made clear in the Statement, of course the election will be hotly contested, but we urge all the parties to conduct that election responsibly and with respect. Throughout the period, the Secretary of State and the Government as a whole will certainly keep open lines of communication to create the conditions that give us the best possible chance of establishing a fully functioning Executive after the election.

For the issues of dealing with the legacy of the past and dealing with preparing properly for the Brexit negotiations, it is in everybody’s interest to have a fully functioning Northern Ireland Executive. With regard to preparing for the Brexit negotiations, of course Northern Ireland Executive Ministers will remain in post throughout the period up to the election and invitations to take part in all the various meetings, including the joint ministerial committee, will be issued to the Executive. The Government are very keen to ensure that the Executive are represented as we continue discussions in the JMC.

Of course the Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Office as a whole will continue to seek views regarding the Brexit negotiations, and we have been very proactive in engaging stakeholders across Northern Ireland to pin down the key issues that we need to bear in mind. The Prime Minister’s speech today makes clear the priority we attach to Northern Ireland and to ensuring that its voice is heard loud and clear as we prepare for these negotiations.

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords, I wish to ask two questions. As the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, has indicated, the electors of Northern Ireland wish to have clarity, not least after the statement of the former Minister Mr Jonathan Bell in Stormont yesterday on what role First Minister Arlene Foster, others in the DUP and their spads played in the RHI debacle. Now that the Northern Ireland Executive have collapsed, and following the forthcoming election, if Sinn Fein/IRA maintains that it will not nominate for office in a new Executive, a strongly likely if not certain consequence is that we will not be able to form a new Administration. Will the Secretary of State establish a public inquiry under Section 205 of the Act into the RHI scandal?

Further, given that the Government have indicated that we are now leaving the single market and will not be full members of a customs union, how will the Government particularly ensure that trade can flow unhindered between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland?

[Lord Dunlop]

Of course the Government agree that it is absolutely essential that we establish the facts and where accountability should lie around the renewable heat initiative scheme. As the Secretary of State made clear earlier in another place, clearly this is a devolved matter and we are firmly of the view that the best approach is that an independent inquiry should be established by the devolved institutions. It is absolutely vital that any inquiry needs to command the acceptance of all the political parties in Northern Ireland and provide widespread confidence across the community. Of course, the Secretary of State will continue to explore options during the election.

With regard to the issue about the border, the Government are absolutely clear that they do not want a return to the borders of the past. As we heard in the previous Statement, we are looking at all the practical options and solutions that will deliver the outcome that the Government want—the maintenance of the common travel area and frictionless trade across the border in the island of Ireland.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

As my friends in all the parties in Northern Ireland will confirm, I hold no brief for any of them or I would not have been able to negotiate the settlement that we achieved in 2007, especially between the DUP and Sinn Fein. But just as unionists found in the Good Friday architecture comfort from the fact that a referendum protected their ambition to stay within the union, would the Minister accept that republicans and nationalists also found in that architecture that their legitimate political—not terrorist—ambition to reunite both halves of the island of Ireland was also protected? I believe that the current situation is very serious for the future. If republicans above all believe that, either through Brexit and the uncertainty over the border, whatever the Government say, or through the failure to show good will over issues important to them, such as the Irish language and equality issues, there is no progress on those questions, I fear that you could see an unravelling of the consensus that has been so painfully established over decades of negotiation. That is the danger that we face. Do the Government understand that?

[Lord Dunlop]

First, I acknowledge the role that the noble Lord has played in the past in helping to set up the situation in which we have had the longest unbroken period of devolved government. Yes, of course, the Government are very alive to the seriousness of the situation, and it is absolutely clear that there has been a breakdown in the relationship between the two main governing parties. That is why we must use all the period between now and the election to maintain the lines of communication so that, in that three-week period that emerges following the election, we can create the conditions in which we stand the best chance of putting together a fully functioning Executive.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

Will the Minister take very seriously the points that my noble friend Lord Hain made on the issues that need to be confronted in Northern Ireland? In the forthcoming month there will not be much time to talk to the political leadership in Northern Ireland, of all the parties, but the Northern Ireland Office knows what those issues are, and it must work overtime so that on 3 March the issues to which my noble friend and others have referred will be looked at and examined by the Northern Ireland Office and the Secretary of State, so that that solutions might be found and put on the table. It is not just about listening, although of course that is hugely important; it is about giving some ideas as well.

Secondly, as I said last week, there is a very important role for the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach in all this, so that when the elections are over they too play a very full part in trying to come to a solution.

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank the noble Lord, who has also played a very honourable and noble role in the peace process and in establishing and laying the ground for the period of devolved rule that we have had. On his second point, clearly the Prime Minister is actively involved. In the last 24 hours, she has spoken to the Taoiseach, Arlene Foster and Martin McGuinness. But as I think the noble Lord implicitly acknowledges, it is right in the first instance for the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to take the lead, which he has been doing—and, of course, the Prime Minister stands ready to do all that she can to assist the process and discharge our primary responsibility for safeguarding the political stability of Northern Ireland. So we will use the period ahead to best effect to ensure that we are in the best position once the election is over.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

In the course of the discussions that have taken place in the last week, has Sinn Fein indicated any willingness to return to the Executive after the elections? In particular, is there any suggestion that preconditions would have to be met before it did so?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dunlop]

I understand that my noble friend tempts me to disclose the subject matter of discussions which must necessarily be confidential. Those who have been involved in Northern Ireland for a long time know that the best chance of building trust and confidence is when discussions between the UK Government and the parties are kept confidential.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, it is with great sadness that I ask the Government two questions today. First, to what extent are the House and the Government aware of the deep distrust and dysfunction which have marked our politics for the last years? Since the last election, the Assembly has not been functioning. It has managed to pass one Act: the Finance Act is the only piece of legislation passed in the Northern Ireland Assembly. On 23 December it was announced that all our school budgets had been rejected by the education authority; our schools are in a parlous state. Yesterday, I heard that 97% of our GPs have signed resignation letters because of the parlous state of the health service. They are undated but the chairman of the General Practitioners Committee said that the situation is catastrophic. Although the Minister had to respond as he did to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, the reality is that we all know the conditions that Sinn Fein is putting on going back into government. Therefore, we all know that there will not be a Government. We will have an election, but we will not have an Assembly. The Government must have known this; they must have been informed of this by Northern Ireland Office officials over the past year or two. What do they mean to do now to exert positive pressure to enable the people of Northern Ireland to have an Assembly which can do that which has not been done for a long time?

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank the noble Baroness. As I said in answer to a previous question, we obviously recognise the tensions that have existed and have led to a breakdown in the relationship between the main governing parties in the Executive. There are noble Lords in this House who are more experienced than I in the workings of Northern Ireland, and there have been many occasions when the parties there have faced what seemed to be insuperable challenges yet they overcame those challenges and found a way forward despite them. That is what the people of Northern Ireland now expect. It is for their political leaders to show leadership and work through the many difficult issues that need to be worked through so that we can achieve what everybody in the community in Northern Ireland wants: the continuation of strong and stable devolved institutions.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the situation. The Secretary of State clearly cannot become involved in an election campaign, but can my noble friend assure me that he will be available throughout, in Northern Ireland, to consult with the individual parties contesting the election? I hope that my noble friend will agree that everything possible must be done before election day, to try to ensure that that very short period of three weeks results in another power-sharing Executive and not in another dissolution, another election and the imposition of direct rule.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dunlop]

I absolutely give my noble friend that assurance. The lines of communication will remain open. We need an open dialogue during this period. It is in everybody’s interest to make a success of devolved government. As the Secretary of State made clear earlier, he is not contemplating alternatives to the re-establishment of a fully functioning Executive.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, given the context of the current confusion, will the Minister consider the issue of natural justice for those of our servicemen who are accused of acts allegedly committed more than 40 years ago? Will something be done to stop that happening given that nothing has happened with regard to members of the IRA, for example, who have allegedly committed atrocities? I hope that this will not now go on the back burner because of all the confusion.

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank the noble Lord. Certainly, the Government absolutely recognise the unsatisfactory nature of the current state of affairs. As I said earlier, we pay tribute to the work that the PSNI and the Armed Forces have done over the years in creating the conditions in which the peace process could develop, and of course the work will continue. It is very important to build a consensus. It is a high priority for the Secretary of State to bring about reform that brings about a fairer and more balanced and proportionate system for examining and dealing with the issues of the past. We will continue to do that. However, that is why—I come back to this point—we need to work so hard to get stable devolved institutions back functioning. The Stormont House agreement provided a framework. We believe that the legacy institutions set out in that agreement provide the basis for that fair, balanced and proportionate way forward on legacy issues.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, I too welcome the Statement. I have to say that it is a sad day for Northern Ireland. Many of us in this Chamber worked hard over a number of years to get where we are in Northern Ireland. No one in this Chamber should underestimate the huge challenge faced by our politicians in Northern Ireland after these Assembly elections in trying to put a power-sharing Government together in Northern Ireland. I want to tease out an issue from the Minister. In the Statement, the Secretary of State said:

“Once the campaign is over, we need to be in a position to re-establish strong and stable devolved government in Northern Ireland”.


Those are fine words. However, I think that that will be much harder to achieve because I believe that the election results will reflect a similar position to the one we have today. The demands of Sinn Fein may be very difficult for any of our politicians in Northern Ireland to meet. On this occasion, the Northern Ireland Office Secretary of State went to elections. I can understand why he did so but the next time round I hope that it will not be a case of having elections. It is all right talking to and meeting the parties, but what plans are the Government bringing forward to try to resolve this issue? Up until now, I have seen nothing. It was probably an easy option for the Secretary of State to go to elections. On the next occasion, it will not be an easy option. I ask the Minister, with great respect, what plans will the Government bring forward to the parties with their own ideas on solving this problem?

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank the noble Lord. I say in reply to his question that the Government can have ideas but fundamentally this is about the relationship between the two main governing parties in the Executive. Primarily, they need to sit down round the table, work through the issues and put together a viable proposition for governing in a devolved situation in Northern Ireland. The UK Government will play their part to facilitate that.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the Assembly has not agreed a budget for next year, and organisations that rely on government aid are sending out redundancy notices. Can he also clarify one point? I accept that he does not wish to contemplate failure or direct rule. However, there are only 14 days from the time the Assembly meets to the time there is another election call. In those circumstances, will he now take the opportunity clearly and unequivocally to rule out any prospect of any form of joint authority as a long-term solution should a failure occur after this election?

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank my noble friend. As I said when I repeated the Statement last week, the constitutional position of Northern Ireland is clearly set out in the Belfast agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998. The UK Government will absolutely meet their commitment and respect fully the constitutional position that is set out in the agreement and in that Act.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

The Good Friday agreement was a shining jewel in the turbulent history of Anglo-Irish relations. The idea that anything should happen that would jeopardise its success is no less than awesome. In the circumstances, would Her Majesty’s Government consider the possibility of using the good offices of some person, male or female, of international renown and independence to try to broker a peaceful solution in this context, something which has happened in the past with great success?

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank the noble Lord. Clearly, we will look at all ideas and suggestions for finding a way through that, and I will certainly reflect on what he said.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister was right to remind us in the Statement that the situation in Northern Ireland now is unrecognisable compared with the past and that we have come a long way. I was reflecting on the fact that in 1979, the day after I was elected to another place, Airey Neave was murdered in the precincts of Parliament, and in the years that followed thousands of people died, thousands were injured and a huge amount of damage was done up and down the country. Yet, by contrast, speaking at Stormont just a few weeks ago, I was very impressed—notwithstanding some of the paralysis in the Assembly itself, to which my noble friend Lady O’Loan referred—by the high integrity of many Members of the Assembly as individuals. Surely, if all these gains that have been made are not to be squandered, it is right to do as the Minister said, and for all to show a great sense of statesmanship and to ensure that they can bring power-sharing back as a reality in Northern Ireland as soon as this election has been held.

[Lord Dunlop]

I can only agree very much with what the noble Lord said. I hope that all the parties in Northern Ireland will heed what he said and move forward in that spirit.

Northern Ireland: Political Developments

Lord Dunlop Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, with permission, I will repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the other place. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, with permission, I would like to make a Statement about the political situation in Northern Ireland.

As the House will be aware, yesterday Martin McGuinness submitted his resignation as Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. This also means that the First Minister, Arlene Foster, also ceases to hold office, though she is able to carry out some limited functions. Under the terms of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, as amended by the St Andrews Agreement Act 2007, the position is clear. Should the offices of First and Deputy First Minister not be filled within seven days from Mr McGuinness’s resignation, then it falls to me as Secretary of State to set a date for an Assembly election. Although there is no fixed timetable in the legislation for me to do this, it needs to be within a reasonable period.

In his resignation letter Mr McGuinness said:

“In the available period Sinn Fein will not nominate to the position of Deputy First Minister”.

I am very clear that in the event of the offices not being filled, I have an obligation to follow the legislation. As things stand, therefore, an early Assembly election looks highly likely. I should add that the rules state that, once an election has been held, the Assembly must meet again within one week, with a further two-week period to form a new Executive. Should this not be achieved, as things currently stand I am obliged to call another election. So right honourable and honourable Members should be in no doubt: the situation we face in Northern Ireland today is grave and the Government treat it with the utmost seriousness.

It is worth reflecting for a moment on how we have reached this point. The immediate cause of the situation we now face is the fallout from the development and operation of the Northern Ireland renewable heat incentive scheme. Under the scheme launched by the Northern Ireland Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment in 2012, which is equivalent to a scheme in Great Britain, businesses and other non-domestic users were offered a financial incentive to install renewable heat systems on their premises. The scheme was finally shut to new applicants in February last year when it became clear that the lack of an upper limit on payments, unlike in the GB equivalent, meant the scheme was open to serious abuse. In recent weeks there has been sustained media focus and widespread public concern about how this situation developed.

The renewable heat incentive scheme was, and remains, an entirely devolved matter in which the UK Government have no direct role. It is primarily the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly to take the necessary action to address the concerns that have been expressed about it. But I do believe it is imperative that a comprehensive, transparent and impartial inquiry into the development and implementation of the scheme needs to be established as quickly as possible. In addition, effective action needs to be taken by the Executive and Assembly to control costs. While the RHI might have been the catalyst for the situation we now face, it has however exposed a number of deeper tensions in the relationship between parties and within the Northern Ireland Executive. This has led to a breakdown in the trust and co-operation that is necessary for the power-sharing institutions to function effectively.

Over the coming hours and days I will continue to explore whether any basis exists to resolve these issues prior to my having to fulfil my statutory duty to call an election. I have been in regular contact with the leadership of the DUP and Sinn Fein and with the Justice Minister, Clare Sugden, an Independent Unionist. Yesterday evening I had a round of calls with the main opposition parties at Stormont. I am in close touch with the Irish Foreign Minister, Charlie Flanagan. Immediately after this Statement I will return to Northern Ireland, where I will continue to do whatever I can to find a way forward. Both the UK and the Irish Governments will continue to provide every possible support and assistance to the Executive parties. We do, however, have to be realistic. The clock is ticking. If there is no resolution then an election is inevitable, despite the widely held view that an election may deepen divisions and threaten the continuity of the devolved institutions.

Mr Speaker, over recent decades Northern Ireland’s politicians have rightly earned plaudits from across the globe for their ability to overcome differences and work together for the good of the whole community. It has required courage and risk on all sides. We are currently in the longest period of unbroken devolved government since the 1960s. This political stability has been hard gained and it should not be lightly thrown away. In the 14 months since the fresh start agreement, significant advances have been made in areas such as addressing paramilitarism, supporting shared and integrated education and putting the Executive’s finances on a sustainable footing. This summer’s parading season has passed off peacefully, and the long-running dispute in north Belfast has been resolved. We have also been working intensively to build the necessary consensus to bring forward the bodies to address the legacy of Northern Ireland’s past, as set out in the Stormont House agreement.

I am in no doubt that what Northern Ireland needs at this time is strong, stable devolved government, not a collapse of the institutions. Northern Ireland deserves fair, accountable, stable and effective government. It needs to continue to implement the Belfast agreement and its successors, to strengthen the economy, to ensure that Northern Ireland responds to the challenges and opportunities presented by the EU exit, to build a stronger, shared society in which there is respect for everyone, and to address the legacy of the past in a way that enables Northern Ireland to move forward. We must not put all this at risk without every effort to resolve differences. We must continue to do all that we can to build a brighter, more secure Northern Ireland that works for everyone. I therefore urge Northern Ireland’s political leaders to work together and come together to find a way forward from the current position in the best interests of Northern Ireland. I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement to your Lordships’ House this evening.

As the Secretary of State has said, the truly peaceful society that we all wish to see in Northern Ireland is intricately bound together with politically stable institutions and a strong economy. It is therefore essential that the people of Northern Ireland have confidence that there is a coherent and collective Government in Stormont—a Government who are open and accountable and working in the best interests of the whole of Northern Ireland.

The stability of the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland is more important now than ever, given the particular challenges that will be presented by Brexit in the coming months. It is clear that cool heads and calm leadership are needed in order to resolve the current difficulties. It is also clear that the crisis reveals deeper problems than the specific issues that have come to the fore in recent weeks. To that end, will the Minister confirm that the Secretary of State will convene immediate talks with all the political parties in Northern Ireland? Will he also ensure that such talks do not just focus on the immediate issues in relation to the RHI scheme but look at measures to improve openness and transparency in the Executive, the Assembly and politics, including transparency in party funding in Northern Ireland?

Although I welcome the Secretary of State’s support for a comprehensive, transparent and impartial inquiry, can the Minister confirm that the Government will ensure that the establishment of this inquiry is not delayed by yesterday’s announcement, and that, if the Executive fail to establish an inquiry, this Government will consider doing so?

[Lord Dunlop]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their remarks and, in particular, for all the thanks that the noble Lord expressed to all those who have played such an important part in the peace process over the years. I am also very grateful for the support they have given the Government in seeking a resolution to very difficult issues.

This is a time to come together and work together. Everyone in this House wants the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland to succeed. I have no doubt that this is the view of the overwhelming majority of people in Northern Ireland and what they want to see. I have seen for myself, as I have travelled around Northern Ireland over the last six months, the huge progress that is being made and the many positive developments that are happening in all parts of Northern Ireland. The Government want to build on that progress and that is why the Secretary of State and the Government will strain every sinew in the short period ahead to work with all the parties in Northern Ireland to see if we can find a way forward. As the Secretary of State has made clear, he stands ready to assist in any way he can.

A number of specific points were raised. The noble Lord asked about an issue that is clear in the Statement I have just made—that an election may deepen the divisions and may not provide a solution. That is why the Secretary of State is so focused in the coming hours and days on finding a solution to the immediate issues. Regarding legacy, clearly it has been a priority for the Secretary of State to build a consensus on how we move forward from the current, very unsatisfactory situation where we do not have a balanced process in place. We must recall that 90% of the deaths that occurred over the period of the Troubles were the result of terrorist activity. He is absolutely committed to building a consensus on a more balanced and proportionate way forward, building on the Stormont House agreement legacy bodies, and he has articulated the priority he wants to give to that because he would like to move quickly to a public phase.

On the cost estimates of the renewable heat incentive scheme, the Northern Ireland Executive itself has estimated a figure of £490 million over 20 years if there is no mitigation. Clearly, one of the issues we need to deal with in the talks that are taking place with the parties over the next few days is how we mitigate those costs. As for the inquiry, that is absolutely something the Secretary of State is talking to the parties about. We need to establish the facts, accountability and ensure that we have a process that can command confidence. On the implications for the UK’s exit from the EU, the Secretary of State and other Ministers in the Northern Ireland Office, including myself, have been engaging widely to identify the issues that need to be front and centre of the discussions as we proceed towards the negotiations on exit from the EU, and those discussions have included the Northern Ireland Executive. We want to make sure that we get a good deal for Northern Ireland and the UK as a whole, and the Secretary of State is very clear that the voice of Northern Ireland needs to be at the heart of those discussions. Clearly, that would be assisted if there was a fully functioning Northern Ireland Executive.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, first of all, in what way does the Minister think that an election, and indeed the suggestion of a second election, could in any way overcome the impasse caused by the RHI scheme? Secondly, I welcome very much his Statement that the Government will make every effort to support the Belfast agreement, because that is fundamental. I also welcome the Statement that they would like to see an impartial inquiry, and I am delighted that the First Minister in Northern Ireland also wants to see this. Finally, can the Minister confirm that, should these things fail, the Government will in no way repeat the errors of 1985 and go behind the backs of the people of Northern Ireland to reach an agreement with the Dublin Government? That would lead to the chaos which my colleague, the noble Lord, Lord King, well recalls and which the late Lady Thatcher subsequently said she very much regretted had occurred. The failure of the Anglo-Irish agreement must not be repeated.

[Lord Dunlop]

Regarding the election, I think the Statement makes it clear that there is a risk that that does not provide the solution we are looking for and that it would deepen the divisions. That is why the Secretary of State’s immediate priority is to use the period that we have in the coming hours and days—the seven-day period—to see, in active discussion with all the political parties, whether we can find a way through this. However, the legislation is clear. If the posts are not filled within a seven-day period, the Secretary of State has to call an election. It would obviously be premature today to speculate on the precise timing, but he is clear that he has to do that within a reasonable timeframe. With regard to the Irish Government, clearly there has been close contact with the Irish Government Foreign Minister, while of course respecting the constitutional proprieties.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, it has been nearly 19 years since the Good Friday agreement and two years since the fresh start agreement. We have had an Assembly, but it has been a very dysfunctional Assembly. Part of the reason for that are the matters alluded to by the Minister in the Statement—the increased, deep tension and the breakdown of trust between the parties. Having listened to what the Minister said about the past, what are the Government going to do to enable mechanisms for dealing with the past—mechanisms devised years ago by Eames/Bradley—which would enable and encourage devolved government? I say to the Minister that the absence of mechanisms for dealing with the past leaves a reservoir of distrust, and that in part, I am quite sure, has contributed to that tension and breakdown in trust to which the Minister referred.

[Lord Dunlop]

The legacy bodies that were envisaged by the Stormont House agreement do potentially provide a viable, balanced and proportionate way forward, recognising, as I said, that the status quo is very unsatisfactory. I am sorry for repeating this again, but the reason why the Secretary of the State is so focused on using this period to talk to all the parties to see whether there is a way through these very challenging issues is precisely that we need a functioning Executive to deal with these issues such as the legacy of the past, which has proved so difficult in allowing Northern Ireland to move forward. It has been a priority for the Secretary of the State and he has been in intensive discussions with all the parties to see whether we can build that consensus. He is very conscious that we will get only one chance to do this properly and we need to build that consensus.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, as a former holder of the post, I give my full support to the Secretary of State in every step that he takes to try to ensure that this does not end in the sad and tragic way that it could. It is almost by default, through political incompetence, Civil Service bungling and party posturing in Northern Ireland, which has led us to a situation where 10 years of devolved government since the historic settlement we negotiated in 2007, and 10 years of Good Friday negotiations prior to that, could be destroyed. As he has mentioned Brexit, will the Minister tell us how, if the Supreme Court rules that the devolved legislatures should, as they all requested, be consulted on Article 50, that can be complied with if there is no Northern Ireland Government?

[Lord Dunlop]

At the risk of repeating myself again, that is the focus of the activity that the Secretary of State will be involved in over the coming hours and days during this seven-day period, to see whether we can find a way through. The noble Lord is absolutely right: we need a functioning Executive to deal with all the very pressing issues that will be of huge importance to Northern Ireland. Yes, there are challenges with Brexit, but there are opportunities as well, and we need to ensure that we exploit those. But be in no doubt that the voice of Northern Ireland will be heard loud and clear and will be at the heart of preparations for these negotiations. The Northern Ireland Office, the Secretary of State and myself have been engaging widely in Northern Ireland to pin down the key issues that need to be at the forefront of our minds as we approach those negotiations. However, as I said, the noble Lord is absolutely right: a fully functioning Executive will be of assistance in that process.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the crisis at Stormont has been precipitated by gross ministerial incompetence, arrogance, greed and opportunism. I regret to say that the seeds of this debacle were sown in 2006, when the Government unilaterally changed the terms of the Belfast agreement on the appointment of the First and Deputy First Ministers. Does the Minister agree that, had the Government allowed proper parliamentary scrutiny of devolution instead of this wretched policy of “devolve and forget”, which we call the Sewel convention, we might not be facing the potential return of direct rule with all the risks that the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, has outlined—on which I entirely identify with and support him?

[Lord Dunlop]

I note what the noble Lord says about the change in the method of selecting the First and Deputy First Ministers, and I acknowledge his long-standing position on this. However, as the Secretary of State made clear in the other place, the focus now must be on exploring whether there is any basis for resolving the current issues. There is huge support in Northern Ireland for devolution. The point about devolution—a point I have made in this House before—is that when powers are devolved to institutions, we need to support those institutions in discharging their responsibilities. The renewable heat incentive scheme is a fully devolved matter and we believe that the solution to that—with of course the support of the Secretary of State and the Government—needs to come from within the Northern Ireland institutions.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, I also welcome the Statement by the Minister. All this started with the renewable heat incentive scheme in the Assembly. But this is not about playing the blame game anymore. I welcome the continuing partnership between the Government, the Labour Party and the opposition parties on how we might resolve this issue, because there is no doubt that it needs to be resolved.

Unfortunately, in Northern Ireland it is not about the renewable heat initiative any more. As the former Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland will know, this will grow legs—and I understand that other issues are now coming into the melting pot. They, too, will have to be resolved. The issue is being compounded by other political parties and individuals in and around this. The only way forward is for the politicians of Northern Ireland to come together and resolve the matter once and for all—because here we are again, and we will be here again next year.

I remember the early 2000s; the Assembly fell three times in almost four years when the SDLP and the Ulster Unionists were in charge. So let us stop the blame game and get to a point at which, eventually, all these issues—legacy issues and current issues—can be resolved. Will the Minister tell us whether there are any further initiatives or measures that the Government can bring to the table to resolve this? We have only one opportunity to resolve this and Assembly elections will not do it. We will come back after an election with the same situation, but worse. The Government must redouble their efforts to bring further measures to the table.

[Lord Dunlop]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I am sure he is absolutely right that, in this situation, we want the parties working together. The Secretary of State is very focused on doing that over the coming period. The noble Lord opposite made the suggestion that the Secretary of State might issue a formal invitation to a round table, and I am sure that initiatives of that sort will be considered by the Secretary of State as he continues his discussions with the parties.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I was a direct rule Minister for five years in Northern Ireland, and it seems to me that the last thing Northern Ireland wants is a return to direct rule. Clearly, there has been a serious breakdown of trust and confidence between the political parties in Northern Ireland. I also agree with other noble Lords that an election, frankly, would be disastrous. There is one week in which to avoid that. Does the Minister agree that the guarantors of the Belfast agreement and the others that followed are the British and Irish Governments, and that they should work together very closely and carefully over the next week—even to the point at which the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach get involved?

[Lord Dunlop]

I absolutely agree that we must, as I said in earlier remarks, strain every sinew to find a way forward. Clearly, there is contact with the Irish Government, but we must respect the constitutional priorities. What has given rise to this situation is the RHI scheme, which is a devolved matter. The constitutional position of Northern Ireland is clearly set out in the Belfast agreement and we need to respect that.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords, sufficiently provoked by the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, I will make one comment on my noble friend’s Statement. While I perfectly understand the importance of keeping the Irish Government informed, this is the responsibility of the United Kingdom Government, as it has always been—there has never been any question, at any stage, of joint authority, even during some of the most difficult issues and times.

Coming to my feet on this occasion, I cannot help reflecting on that awful couplet:

“To Hell with the future,

Thank God for the past”.

I will not repeat the last two lines, but I can see how easily we could go back to that unfortunate situation. I recall, tragically, that Northern Ireland has been an example to the world of how you can resolve long-standing difficulties. People have been invited from all over the world to visit Northern Ireland to see how competing traditions have managed to work together. That is the particular tragedy of this situation.

I understand that there is no immediate imperative and that if an election is to be called, there is no particular time within which it has to be called. That may allow for a certain opportunity to see whether some agreement can be reached to carry the country forward. It is the responsibility of all those in Northern Ireland. They can have a better future, and everybody in this House hopes that they will achieve it.

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank my noble friend. As I said, obviously there has been close contact with the Irish Foreign Minister—but, as he rightly points out, we need to respect the constitutional proprieties, and the constitutional position of Northern Ireland is clearly set out in the Belfast agreement. As for the timing, there is a seven-day period, after which the Secretary of State is obliged to call an election. There is no specified time period for that, but he has to do so within a “reasonable” period of time. Tonight it would be premature to speculate on a specific date.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as one who was chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee throughout the 2005 Parliament, working closely with the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and his successor, one thing that impressed me enormously was the priority and time given by Prime Minister Blair and Prime Minister Brown. They frequently paid tribute to the wonderful spadework of Sir John Major.

This should now be at the top of the parliamentary agenda in the United Kingdom. The Prime Minister should be involved. I was often in the company of the late Lord Bannside, Ian Paisley, and sometimes in the company of Mr McGuinness. I am sorry that he is so ill at the moment. We should appeal to him as well to play a part in getting everyone together. Will my noble friend convey to the Prime Minister that many of us in this House feel that she would be neglecting no duty in putting this at the top of her agenda for the immediate future? She should go to Northern Ireland and sit down with the political leaders there and explain to them what priority we attach to continuing what has been a very remarkable decade since 2007. I appeal to my noble friend to convey those sentiments to the Prime Minister.

[Lord Dunlop]

Certainly, the sentiments of this House will be heard loud and clear. I hope that it is clear from the Statement that I have repeated today the gravity and seriousness that the Government attach to these matters and therefore the priority that we will give to them. In the discussions that the Secretary of State will have, he will obviously explore all avenues to see what might be helpful in resolving the current situation. We must not rule anything out in trying to seek that resolution.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, for more than 20 years I was a very regular visitor to Northern Ireland and I currently have an exemplary Northern Ireland son-in-law. Why does the Statement assume that an election will change nothing? We all know that power sharing is a very difficult concept to work out in practice, no doubt because of the lack of trust in a still deeply divided society. But, if the electorate wants to persevere with power sharing, they should penalise those who fail to deliver it. In theory, there could be a new coalition between official Unionists and the SDLP, but long-term thinking is also required beyond the present situation. A county council or GLC model might be more appropriate than what we have. At any rate, less emphasis is needed on legacies from the past and far more on positive and co-operative work for the future, based on civil society and local community relations.

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank the noble Lord for his contribution. One can never predict the implications of elections. The Statement simply sets out the widely held view that an election may deepen divisions and threaten the continuity of devolved institutions. Clearly, we need to work and redouble our efforts to find a resolution, as I have already said.

Scottish Government: Welfare

Lord Dunlop Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord McAvoy, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, we have made significant progress to transfer the welfare powers in the Scotland Act 2016. Eleven provisions are already in force, including new powers for the Scottish Parliament to create new benefits in devolved areas and top up any reserved benefits. The UK Government remain committed to a safe and secure transfer of powers, and the joint ministerial working group on welfare continues to oversee plans for commencement of the remaining welfare provisions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that time after time the SNP has asked for powers to mitigate the effects of Tory austerity in Scotland? It now has the tax powers and the welfare powers, but it does absolutely nothing. Does that not confirm that it prefers to moan and whine rather than to accept responsibility?

[Lord Dunlop]

I certainly recall what the noble Lord says, and I have a degree of sympathy with what he is saying. It is clear that the Scottish Government are having to face up to the reality that demanding the devolution of more powers is not the same as being able to use those powers effectively. If you want to replace existing programmes, you need first to know what you are replacing them with. The Government’s priority must be and is to work with the Scottish Government to ensure the safe and secure transfer of devolved welfare powers.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, is it not worth noting that the SNP claimed that it could deliver independence in two years after winning a referendum? It has been in government for over nine years. Should the people of Scotland not welcome the fact that it now recognises that it is not competent to take over the welfare responsibilities, not least because it is failing to meet outcomes and targets on education, health, transport, justice, policing, and local government—indeed, on everything? It is really time that it recognised that it is not up to the job.

[Lord Dunlop]

I certainly think that the realities of devolving welfare powers put into context the assertion of the then First Minister of Scotland, who said that an independent Scottish state could be established within 18 months. We have seen some of the domestic policy record; two weeks ago, we learned that Scotland’s schools had recorded their worst ever performance in PISA tests since those were set up in the year 2000. This underlines why the Scottish Government should perhaps spend less time searching for new reasons to hold another independence referendum and more time on the day job.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, have they not proved that you cannot fill a void with a vacuum?

[Lord Dunlop]

I am inclined to agree with my noble friend.