House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Lord Higgins Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, given the widespread support throughout the House, I do not honestly see that there is any significant problem about this. We would simply be on the voting list and could vote as we can in European elections, in Scottish elections if we live there, or in Welsh or in Northern Irish elections. We would just have the right to vote. It would make no difference at all in practice. The local authorities would simply have an easier task when compiling the voting list.

On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wright, Members of Parliament might not technically be Members of the Commons when an election is called, but they can vote in a by-election. I very much hope that we can proceed to a decision. Everyone whose opinion I test in the country thinks that this is an anomaly and absurd. The world will not come to an end, but democracy will be enhanced.

[Lord Higgins]

On the suggestion that the amendment is withdrawn, my noble friend Lord Steel has made a very clear offer. The amendment does require further consideration, not least because Members who are not present today may well have a view. We can certainly come back to this on Report or at Third Reading.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, this amendment has been on the Order Paper for some considerable time. As regards the argument that some people not here might have a view, I would say “tough”. Let us make a decision now.

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[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I understand that the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, as to whether we have had a good day today are subjective, as the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, indicated. I have to say that we wonder every day whether we have had a good day in this Chamber. It really rather depends which side of the Chamber one is sitting on. Today, I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Steel, that we have had a good day. The housekeeping matters that we have discussed and agreed upon are extremely important for the working of this House—important for our internal workings, but also in reputational terms for this House. I hope that we can expedite proceedings today to ensure that the next time we consider this Bill, it will be on Report so that we can then take it forward and ensure that it is enacted at the earliest opportunity.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, it is true, as has just been said by the Chairman, that Amendment 163 is in the wrong place; it should come right at the end. However, I think I am also right in saying, although it does not say this on the notice of today’s business, that this is a provisional grouping and that it is open to anyone to move the amendment where it actually falls in the Bill. In which case, one can perhaps then take Amendment 163 at the end but, in order to get to that, one would need to deal with the matters which are ahead of it.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I strongly support what both my noble friend Lord Steel and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, have said. My noble friends Lord Trefgarne and Lord Caithness have tabled a series of amendments because they are unhappy about the appointments commission. My noble friend Lord Steel wishes to delete all of those clauses, so in that sense there is no difference between us. We have dealt with housekeeping matters. The votes this morning indicated that there was a broad consensus across the House, with all parties and the Cross Benches wanting to see these matters of housekeeping addressed, and addressed expeditiously.

It would be extremely unfortunate if the House allowed this Bill to be talked out this afternoon, when we can rise in a seemly and proper manner earlier than we had originally planned. We can then come back on Report and Third Reading, where my noble friend Lord Steel has already indicated that he is more than willing to take on board a number of the important points that have been made by colleagues in all parts of the House. We will then have done what we should rightly do, which is to put our own House in order, which is what this Bill seeks to do.

Whatever the ultimate aspirations or ambitions of any Member present are for the future second Chamber—whether appointed, elected or hybrid—none of those views is in any way dealt with by our dealing with this housekeeping matter and putting our own House in order. Therefore, I very much hope that, in the spirit of geniality that has prevailed for most of this debate, we can now draw our proceedings to a conclusion and come back on Report at a fairly early date.

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[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the expression on the Clerk’s face said it all. I am sorry it was not possible for everyone to see it. The appropriate procedure would be to allow the Chairman to proceed on this basis. We will then come to Amendment 163. We do have procedures in the House that we have to follow.

[Lord Higgins]

Is it not the case that a simple way to proceed is not to move Amendments 142 to 117, to deal with Clauses 1, 2 and 3 and then to proceed to Amendment 163? That will take only a moment or two.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

My Lords, while people mull over the various possibilities of what might happen, and without wishing to prolong proceedings at all, may I simply ask the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, one question? If he gets a fair wind today and we finish the Committee stage, will he give a categorical assurance that when we come back on Report we will not be faced again by the prospect of large chunks of the Bill being jettisoned at the last minute?

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[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I can give the noble Lord that assurance. The only changes that I foresee at Report would be those matters on which I have already given undertakings to colleagues, particularly as regards the clauses on sentencing, which I will discuss further with the House authorities at the other end and with the Ministry of Justice, because we must make sure that we get that right. That is my undertaking to colleagues who have moved amendments. With that exception, the Bill as we have now agreed it may now proceed as suggested and will come forward for Report as it is.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, perhaps I may again suggest what I suggested previously. The easiest way to do this is that when the noble Lord has spoken to and withdrawn Amendment 142, the subsequent amendments on the Order Paper—other than Amendment 163—should not be moved. We will then vote on Clauses 1, 2 and 3 and then on Amendment 163. We will then proceed quickly.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, is very beguiling and put the onus firmly on my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me. That was a little unfair but that is all in the game of politics, and I accept it. He will know that there are also other amendments. The noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, my noble friend Lord Astor and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, who is not in his place, have tabled amendments. It is therefore not up to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me to decide that we can suddenly say, “I give way to the noble Lord, Lord Steel”. I repeat that the noble Lord should have discussed his proposal with me previously because I have done a huge amount of work on the first part of the Bill up to Clause 10. I spent many hours preparing these amendments and it is an absolute abuse of any Member of your Lordships' House to be treated in such a way. It is quite wrong.

I have amendments on not just the appointments commission but I have an amendment to create a Joint Committee on a House of Lords appointments commission. Such a proposal is in the Government’s draft Bill and is highly relevant. I want a statutory appointments commission and I am now being denied a chance to debate it—or I am being pressurised by my noble friend Lord Steel not to debate it. However, it is hugely important that we have a statutory commission. As I said right at the beginning, it was my noble friend Lord Steel who wanted a statutory appointments commission. It was he who moved an amendment to the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, regretting that there was not to be a statutory appointments commission. Now it does not suit my noble friend to have an appointments commission in the Bill because he is so keen to get the rest of it through.

My noble friend had another opportunity; he could quite legitimately have withdrawn the Bill and introduced another Bill with no provision for a statutory appointments commission. That would have been the right and proper thing to do. The fact is that he quite deliberately did not do that. He deliberately moved a Motion that has made it extremely difficult for us to have a sensible discussion on a lot of the amendments. I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, my noble friend Lord Astor or the noble Lady, Lady Saltoun, think about their amendments. Having done all the work, I should actually like to get on and discuss my amendments. However, I understand that I am in a minority.

Nevertheless, there is an important principle here. Just because one is in a minority in this House does not mean that one does not have the right to move amendments, and one should not be unduly pressurised—which my noble friend is doing to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne and me—not to move amendments on which we have spent an awful lot of time.

Had it been the other way round at the beginning, and the statutory appointments commission had been right at the end, the noble Lord would have had a more valid case. He could have said: “We have got so far, but we are going to hit the magic hour of three o'clock. Don't let's discuss any more”. That would be much more logical. I cannot decide alone. For a start, Amendment 1 is important. It contains a purpose clause. It is indeed the clause that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, introduced himself the last time that we discussed this. If he wanted it then, surely he wants it now. These are not matters that can be dismissed lightly. Without the approval of other noble Lords, I cannot make a decision for them. We shall see how we proceed, but I beg to withdraw Amendment 142.