Holocaust Memorial Bill

Lord Pickles Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 11th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I have not so far taken part in this debate, although I did in Committee. I simply want to say that I strongly support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, but I want to get down to the nitty-gritty. Perhaps the Minister can help by answering my questions. I am trying to envisage what the memorial will look like with the security in place. How many police officers will be at each entrance? How many will be involved in its security? Will they be armed or unarmed guards? Will they be there 24 hours a day, or will the park shut so we will not then need them? I ask for a few simple answers.

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great privilege to follow the noble Baroness. I am not getting at anybody here, but we talked about a policeman dying for us. I made a vow that whenever we talked about him, we would remember that he was called Keith Palmer. His name is on a plaque at the gates to remind us. I knew him, and he was a brave man.

I am a bit concerned. I think that people are picking on the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. While I would not have the temerity to run as chairman of his fan club, I certainly could be a member. He has performed a very useful role. One or two people who have arrived late to this debate seem to think he has caused a degree of bad feeling. He has performed a very valuable role, because he has asked some difficult questions and has forced the Minister and me, and others, to address that.

We need to be assured that a process has been set up to answer the questions the noble Lord has asked. Through that process, the decision is made on whether we should have a Holocaust memorial and a learning centre—a decision which is not ours, but that of the planning process.

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[Lord Pickles (Con)]

My Lords, I do not regard this as a wrecking amendment at all; I think it is a very thoughtful one that has been on a journey where unintentional consequences have occurred. I am very sympathetic because I went through the same process myself a few years ago, after the 2017 election, when the prospect of a Jeremy Corbyn Prime Ministership was a real and present danger. I certainly could see the possibility that the Holocaust memorial would turn into some kind of genocide museum or genocide and slavery museum and be completely watered down. I spent a lot of time worrying and trying to find ways round it. I have to say that if there had there been a Jeremy Corbyn Government with that intent, I do not think there would be very much this House could have done to prevent it.

The noble Lord is right that “genocide” has been used in an almost flippant way in trying to describe things. We have had instances in which people have refused to take immunisations and have compared themselves to the Jews. We have heard noble prelates describe environmental problems as a holocaust. I think it is important to recognise why the Holocaust was unique. I think Members around the Chamber will remember our dear friend David Cesarani, sadly no longer with us, a very distinguished British historian of the Holocaust. David had this ability to put things very neatly and in 22 words he managed to sum up the Holocaust:

“The Holocaust involved the systematic use of state power, modern bureaucratic methods, scientific thinking, and killing methods adapted from industrial production systems”.


There has been no subsequent holocaust—and no prior holocausts—that would fall into that definition, except one. That is why the manuscript amendment is so vital because the Roma and Sinti genocide was identical to what happened in the Holocaust in that the individuals were selected not because of what they did, not because of what they thought, not because of their sexual preferences, but because they were Roma or Sinti. They were killed in ghettos and murdered in Auschwitz. It was an attempt to annihilate a race and the previous amendment would have ruled them out, in effect. I just wanted to make that clear because there has already been quite a bit of speculation that this was an attempt to push out the Roma and the Sinti. That is not the intention of the proposal. It would never be the intention of this House.

I am very sympathetic but I hope I will be forgiven for probing just a little. I may be wrong on this, and I would like the Minister to give a reply. As I read it, if you did a commemoration inside the learning centre without education, would that be in contradiction to this very sensible amendment? If that is the case—because I believe the amendment is an important one—is there some way that the magic of the usual channels can fix any defect? I am looking at the most distinguished member of the usual channels. I hope he will give active consideration to this should that be the case. If I am wrong, I would be delighted.

[Lord Herbert of South Downs (Con)]

My Lords, some years ago I visited the Dachau concentration camp just outside Munich. It made a huge impression on me, as did visiting the memorial and learning centres in Jerusalem and in Berlin. One thing particularly struck me, perhaps because it touched me personally. In Dachau there was a display of the different badges prisoners in the concentration camp were required to wear. One of those badges was a pink triangle, which was reserved for the prisoners who were detained there because they were homosexual. Some 50,000 people are estimated to have been given severe life sentences by the Nazis, and some 15,000 to 20,000 were sent to concentration camps for being homosexual. Most of them died or were killed. Some were subject to horrific experiments, including castration.

I think it would be the effect of the noble Lord’s amendment that the learning centre should not provide information or education about that part of the atrocities perpetrated by Nazi Germany. Sometimes the word Holocaust has been used to include those atrocities. I understand, of course, the force of his argument and the purpose of his amendment—his wish to reserve the education centre and its focus for the appalling crime of attempted genocide perpetrated against Jewish people. If homosexuals, who were also targeted by the Nazi regime, are to be excluded from this learning centre, we should acknowledge that and be conscious of it. Perhaps alternative educational provision can be made. If they should be included—the atrocities were committed against a smaller number of people but were by the same regime with the same sort of motive—then I am not sure the amendment allows for that and should itself be amended at a later stage, should this House accept it tonight.

I do not in any way seek to belittle the crime of attempted genocide against the Jewish people—of course not. Nor do I think we should ignore or belittle what was done to people by the same Nazi regime simply because they were gay.

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[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I was not going to speak at all, and I will make this very short, because I am a great believer in this project and I support what the Minister has done. This amendment is just a wrecking amendment, because it is clear that the UK Holocaust Memorial Foundation put in place by the then Prime Minister conducted an extensive search for alternative sites. Fifty were considered. There should be no more prevarication: we need to get on with this.

If we look at the model, we see that Victoria Tower Gardens are not going to be wrecked; they will be enhanced. The greenery will be enhanced. I just cannot accept the argument being made. To the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, to whom I am very close on so many things, I say that I think the case has been proved tonight. The Jewish community, of course, have many different views; and the Jewish community, like any other citizen in the country, had a chance to get involved nine or so years ago. If they wanted to make some comments they could, like anybody else, have done so.

The last thing I want to say is that the most important speech tonight has just been made by the noble Baroness, Lady Berger. The courage and bravery that she showed, and what she was put through by her own people, in her own party, leads me to say that I admire everything she did. Every word that she said tonight, everybody should read. I totally support that, and therefore I disagree with this amendment.

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

My Lords, I would very much like to be associated with the words expressed about the noble Baroness, Lady Berger. She is a great addition to this House and a woman of considerable courage. Like my noble friend, I have enormous admiration for the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. So far as I am aware, this is the only thing I have ever disagreed with her about. But I hope she will not mind if I do so here. I thought initially that she had just misspoken, but she has repeatedly said that the historian Martin Winstone did not know what was going into the memorial. That is not true. What he actually said—

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

I did not say that—I said that he was unable to explain to us what was going to be learned. He told us very clearly what was going to be in there, but when we asked what the lesson was to be learned, there was no answer.

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

No, that is not what was said. The reason why he could not talk about learning or about what it was going to look like was that, quite properly, we suspended the use of the consultants who are going to be the curators. As the Minister said, it is Ralph Appelbaum.

There has been praise from opponents of and proponents of the Holocaust exhibition in the Imperial War Museum. That was devised by Appelbaum. There is considerable praise for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, and that was designed by Appelbaum. The International African American Museum, which is extremely good, was also done by that firm, as was the First Americans Museum, as well as the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. Members will be able to travel down the river to look at the Crown Jewels exhibition, which is also curated by Appelbaum.

I have to say that the descriptions we have heard of Victoria Tower Gardens do not in any way equate to the reality. The place is a dump. It has been neglected as a dump—and those who speak so eloquently about it should have done something about it. In the summer it is a dustbowl, and in the winter it is a quagmire. Who is going to look after it? The people who were selected to do the landscaping for the Eiffel Tower. The French are a choosy nation—they only go for the best, and the place is going to look so much better. It is going to have paths that water can go through and which will not choke the roots of the trees, as the current paths do. People who are disabled and in wheelchairs will for the first time ever be able to enjoy the embankment. It seems to me to be utterly wrong that somehow, for property-owning reasons, we should deny the people of London, the people who live on the Peabody Estate, something better. This is going to be considerably better, since we as a Parliament have allowed it to be neglected, and I heartily support that.

It is also quite wrong to suggest that somehow, this museum is going to be about British triumphalism. We have repeatedly said that that is not going to be the case.

We have already had a non-Jew quote a rabbi, and as a non-Jew I would like to quote, from the Office Of The Chief Rabbi, Ephraim Mirvis, who is the Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom but also of the Commonwealth, and not easily dismissed. He says:

“In these highly challenging times, with rising antisemitism, I wholeheartedly support the creation of this UK Holocaust Memorial and Learning Centre. There can be no better place than Victoria Tower Gardens, in the shadow of our Parliament, in the heart of our nation’s capital, to act as our permanent reminder of the lessons we must continue to learn from the Holocaust for the sake of all in our society”.


When the Jewish community needed him, he stood up against antisemitism, and he stood up against Jeremy Corbyn. He did not suck up to Jeremy Corbyn. This is a man of great leadership, and his words should be listened to.

[Lord Sassoon (Con)]

Before my noble friend sits down—

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

I have sat down.

[Lord Sassoon (Con)]

I did not want to be discourteous by interrupting his flow, so I am following the normal convention. Before he sits down, can he explain something that is rather puzzling me? If there is to be this immense improvement to the site, why has UNESCO said that this makes it one of the five or six most at-risk world heritage sites on its register?

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

My noble friend is entirely wrong. It is not on the UNESCO site; it is outside the UNESCO site. The inspector looked at this and came to the conclusion that this would enhance the site, and that any change to the site would be an improvement. I think the heritage people have also said that there would be no significant damage. I am grateful to my noble friend, because he has just emphasised what a good thing this is going to be.

[Baroness Harding of Winscombe (Con)]

My Lords, I suppose it is a bit of a clue that if we have more groups of amendments than there are clauses in the Bill, we are going to feel a bit like we are going round in circles—and this group does feel a bit like we are going round in circles.

It may be the worst nightmare of the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, to have three Conservatives in a row say that they wholeheartedly agree with what she has said and how incredibly courageous she has been, but I would also like to associate myself with all her remarks. I also respect the integrity with which the noble Lady Baroness, Lady Deech, introduced this group by being very clear that she disapproves and disagrees with the concept of the learning centre.

We should have no illusions: this is a wrecking amendment. Having been on the Holocaust Memorial Foundation for 10 years, I know that we have looked at more than 50 locations and that if we go back to square one and look for new locations, we are kicking this can down the road for at least another decade. That would be a crying shame when the world really needs this now.