Holocaust Memorial Bill

Baroness Deech Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 11th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I greatly respect the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, in reviewing terrorism legislation, but I think that on this particular issue he is wrong. I come to that judgment from having had some responsibility in the past, both as a Home Office Minister and most recently as Secretary of State for Transport, where I had responsibility for the security of aviation, maritime and our transport systems, including here in London.

I listened carefully to the noble Lord’s speech. First, on the planning process, clearly the design of the learning centre is, appropriately, taken account of in the planning process. As my noble friend has just said, advice was taken from the appropriate authorities in the design of the learning centre, and that was appropriate. Protecting it on a day-to-day basis would rightly be the responsibility both of the Metropolitan Police and of our other agencies. Having worked closely with them, I have enormous confidence in their ability to do that.

As to the noble Lord’s point about any change in the threat to the Palace of Westminster, first, he drew attention to the large number of visitors that would be expected to go to the learning centre. I draw to his attention the fact that around 1 million people a year visit the Palace of Westminster, whether as visitors or to meet their Members of Parliament. So a very significant number of members of the public already visit this part of London.

One of the challenges that all our security authorities have in a democratic country is balancing the necessary protection of your Lordships, Members of the House of Commons and all those who work in this building, with maintaining the appropriate access to a democratic institution for members of the public. A number of public servants work in this building, on the estate, in our security services and in the Metropolitan Police. They work every day—sometimes, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, referenced, at great personal risk to themselves—to keep us safe, but also to enable members of the public to have access to their democratic institutions. I have every confidence that they will continue to do that job. I do not think that that is an appropriate subject for a report for us to consider. Those threats are monitored and dealt with on an ongoing basis.

My final point is a slightly more worrying one. The logical conclusion of what both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said, is that we would not have a learning centre anywhere. Even if there is such a threat in having a learning centre that it would be, as I think the noble Baroness said, a “lure” to those who wish people ill, in a democratic country we have to say at some point, “We have values and we want to build such a centre”. The correct thing to do is to make sure that it is properly protected, not to say that, because people might threaten it, we are not going to build it. That would be the wrong conclusion to draw.

The subsequent point is this. The fact that the noble Baroness said that having such an education centre would provoke this sort of reaction demonstrates to me the absolute necessity of building one, and of building it next to this democratic institution. If building a centre that reminds us of the Holocaust, and of our wish for nothing like that ever to happen again, truly provokes the worst in other people, that demonstrates to me the necessity to do it and to get on with it—and there is no better place to locate it than next to the democratic institution that represents this country. I urge noble Lords, if the noble Lord chooses to divide the House, to reject his amendment.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, the promoters of this project have said over and over again that they interpret our objections as being, “You can’t build a Holocaust memorial anywhere”, but that is not what it is about. The point is that you build it but you have to take into account the consequences on the immediate surroundings and the visitors of where and how you build it.

I do not share the absolute confidence of the promoters on the security. We know, for example, that for over a year those who care about security have asked the authorities to move the police from their comfortable spot at the foot of the escalators to Portcullis House out into the Tube, and they have not done it—after repeated requests. We have heard of other instances.

What noble Lords have not taken into account is protests. The Metropolitan Police and other police have not done well in balancing the right of protest against security. One end of the park is going to be wide open, and you can well imagine the hundreds or thousands of protesters, as has already happened, entering and waving flags, with their cans of red paint. There will be no one to stop them; they can go right up towards the mound and throw something or sail along the river and throw something. The police, to judge by their lack of action against protesters in Jewish areas of London and elsewhere, will say that the right of protest is more important than the need for the memorial to be quiet, sacred and respected.

We should also remember the children, unfortunate little ones, playing in the playground exactly where people queue. It is also well known that queues are a vulnerable spot for terrorists. There will be queues of people waiting to get in—sitting ducks, along with the children in the playground, which will be most unfortunate. There will be off-putting armed guards at one end, and free entry at the other. The record of the police and this Government on protecting Jewish people and Jewish students on campus since 7 October has been dire, and this cannot mean safety for gatherings in Victoria Tower Gardens.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I had not intended to contribute to this debate until the noble Lord, Lord Harper, spoke. First, I should make my credentials known, since everyone else seems to have done it. For 40 years I have been a member of Labour Friends of Israel. I am married to a Jewish lady. My first interest in history and politics was provoked by that book, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer, and the horrors of Nazism. I feel sorry that I have to say that, but there is occasionally an imputation that anyone who opposes the present plan is somehow unsympathetic to Jewish people or to the commemoration and the memory of the Holocaust. I say that because nothing could be further from the truth in my case.

The objection that some people have to the present plan, including me, is that it is unviable. It increases insecurity, breaches all environmental guidelines, overrules all local democracy and increases the danger, not only the physical danger of the present plans but the danger of a backlash against forcing through this plan against all local democracy and common sense. That is my worry. Incidentally, it is the worry of many of my Jewish friends and my wife, to be quite truthful. If I was not to contribute tonight, I would be facing something even more dangerous than the Whips—potential divorce.

Let me correct a couple of things that have been said. As far as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, is concerned, it is quite untrue to suggest that she said we cannot have a memorial anywhere. It is possible to have a separate memorial to the Holocaust established next to this Parliament, while having a genuine learning centre elsewhere. I declare an interest in that my PhD was on slavery. If you wanted to build a huge monument next to this Parliament, it would be about slavery—which was instigated and demolished by this Parliament. The terrible irony is that this plan suggests that we remove the only present monument in the gardens, which is to slavery.

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[Lord Herbert of South Downs (Con)]

My Lords, some years ago I visited the Dachau concentration camp just outside Munich. It made a huge impression on me, as did visiting the memorial and learning centres in Jerusalem and in Berlin. One thing particularly struck me, perhaps because it touched me personally. In Dachau there was a display of the different badges prisoners in the concentration camp were required to wear. One of those badges was a pink triangle, which was reserved for the prisoners who were detained there because they were homosexual. Some 50,000 people are estimated to have been given severe life sentences by the Nazis, and some 15,000 to 20,000 were sent to concentration camps for being homosexual. Most of them died or were killed. Some were subject to horrific experiments, including castration.

I think it would be the effect of the noble Lord’s amendment that the learning centre should not provide information or education about that part of the atrocities perpetrated by Nazi Germany. Sometimes the word Holocaust has been used to include those atrocities. I understand, of course, the force of his argument and the purpose of his amendment—his wish to reserve the education centre and its focus for the appalling crime of attempted genocide perpetrated against Jewish people. If homosexuals, who were also targeted by the Nazi regime, are to be excluded from this learning centre, we should acknowledge that and be conscious of it. Perhaps alternative educational provision can be made. If they should be included—the atrocities were committed against a smaller number of people but were by the same regime with the same sort of motive—then I am not sure the amendment allows for that and should itself be amended at a later stage, should this House accept it tonight.

I do not in any way seek to belittle the crime of attempted genocide against the Jewish people—of course not. Nor do I think we should ignore or belittle what was done to people by the same Nazi regime simply because they were gay.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

I think the discussion so far indicates just how ambiguous the point of this learning centre is. Still no one knows exactly what it is going to teach and what will be in it. I heard the presentation from Martin Winstone. I recall from that that he did not know what lesson was to be learned and that the centre was not going to combat antisemitism.

Over the last few years, I have asked many questions about which genocides will be included. I have had various answers from Ministers and former Ministers, including the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Bybrook, and different answers to Written Questions. Sometimes we are told it is the Rohingya or Kosovo. Other times we are told it is all the people who were victims of the Nazis. This indicates to me no clarity about what is going on. Most of the other Holocaust memorials around the world address a question that is very painful for this Government and Parliament. The British Government closed the doors of Palestine in the 1930s, and even after the war. I always think of how many more people may have been saved—maybe millions—if Britain had abandoned the mandate and allowed Israel to be created in 1938 rather than 1948. This country bears that responsibility, as it did after the war, when it still would not let people into what was evolving into Israel.

These are difficult questions, but they have to be addressed. The late Lord Sacks said that today’s antisemitism had morphed into anti-Israelism. We cannot escape that question. If we want to combat today’s antisemitism, there has to be some learning somewhere about the biblical, historical and practical need for the nation of Israel, and why it came about. That lack is what is driving much of the hatred on the streets today.

The reason why this amendment is good, but maybe does not even go far enough, is this. The Jewish genocide, unlike all the others that have been mentioned, is rooted in more than 2,000 years of antisemitism—not 1,000, but more than 2,000, and some take it back 5,000 years. The other genocides were the results of tribal hatred, religion, sexual distaste and so on. The other victims, on the whole, were minorities; of all the genocides that have been mentioned, the people were minorities within states, without their own self-determination and means of self-defence. This has nothing to do with democracy, which is why the choice of Victoria Tower Gardens is not a good one. Genocide usually happens because one is a minority within a majority state, unable to exercise self-defence—and the need for self-defence needs to be explained in this learning centre, if it is to teach anything.

We also have to stop putting all this in the past. The learning centre suffers from the deficiency that it will tell people what happened in the war, and about the Nazis. Full stop. Unfortunately some of that is continuing. The learned lawyer Anthony Julius gave a speech a week or two ago in which he said that for thousands of years antisemitism had been a default position almost across the world. My generation were lucky in that this receded for the last 80 years or so, but it has come back, I am afraid to say. We cannot just talk about antisemitism in the past—“It was all Germany, it all happened a long time ago, and now we’re in a democracy and it’s all fine”. That is not the case. It is an ongoing matter.

One has to combat antisemitism with today’s weapons of explanation, which have to encompass what the survivors did after the war. That is a difficult issue for people to confront, because what the learning centre is apparently going to teach, if anything, is very odd—the British reaction to the Holocaust during the war. Did people know about it? Did they not know about it? There will be the Kindertransport, and maybe even the failure to prosecute Nazi war criminals who arrived here after the war. But what one learns from that I really do not know.

I fear that the learning centre will continue the business of globalising the Holocaust, making it a vague word that can be applied to any kind of slaughter that one does not approve of. We need to combat the terrible racism that is appearing in professionals, artists, the media and the universities today. We cannot just treat the Holocaust as another murder in the past, not to be remembered on its own. It is a continuing story.

It has been assumed too readily that learning the facts of the Holocaust inures against antisemitism. Today proves that it does not. I am afraid the learning centre will politicise and de-Judaise the treatment of Jews. We see this at national Holocaust remembrance ceremonies every year: an hour or two of self-congratulation and feeling much better. We need to overhaul Holocaust education and teach that the Holocaust did not succeed. The distinguishing feature of the Jewish community over the ages is survival against all the odds, not just death and victimhood. At every Passover celebration, the people around the table say, “In every generation they rose up to destroy us, but God delivered us from their hands”. That is a lesson that needs to be repeated today.

The learning centre as it stands is not good enough. “Never again” means concentrating on the Jewish genocide and antisemitism, and remembering the need for a safe and strong Israel—the world’s only haven for the persecuted and the survivors of the Holocaust—almost regardless of its faults. Hence the vital nature of this amendment, to secure at the very least a decent rationale for the learning centre.

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To conclude, it is clear that, among us here in the Chamber, we do not agree on the meaning of the Holocaust. The legal risk is about a challenge being brought by someone who disagrees with the government interpretation. That challenge may not ultimately be successful, but it will inevitably cause delay. The Bill would continue to refer to the Holocaust. A new Government would have to change the law to expand that definition. A Government could of course change any other provision we add to the Bill. There is no definition in the Bill.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

I am sorry to say that the confusion, which is becoming deeper and deeper, is of the Government’s own making: all this use of the word “genocide”, this Holocaust and that Holocaust. I understand that the Government give funding to Holocaust education bodies only if they agree to include other genocides along with what Jews call the Shoah, the Jewish genocide. It is the Government who have opened this up.

We all know that the word “genocide” is now being turned against Israel and against Jewish people themselves. The Holocaust Memorial Day Trust itself, which has written in support of this project, last November invited people to a Holocaust remembrance ceremony in January that was going to include the killing of civilians in Gaza. The killing of civilians in Gaza is dreadful, but it has nothing to do with what we should be talking about tonight: the genocide of the Jews. I fear that this is the Government’s own muddle. It needs clarification by support for my noble friend Lord Verdirame’s amendment.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand the noble Baroness’s strength of feeling on this and many other issues. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, I have a lot of sympathy for the intention of the proposed new clause, but I am concerned about it because there is no definition in the Bill. We have to be very careful on that point. I had a conversation with the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame—as I did with the noble Lord, Lord Goodman—but, because of the wording being overly restrictive, I respectfully ask them, at this moment, to withdraw the amendments.

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Moved by

[Baroness Deech]

5: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause—
“Any new planning application to consider better alternativesThe Secretary of State must ensure that any future planning process relating to the expenditure specified in section 1(1)(a) must take into account at least two alternative proposals for each construction specified in section 1(1)(a)(i) and section 1(1)(a)(ii).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to ensure that attention is given to alternative sites in order to reduce any security risks, to enable the inclusion of the Learning Centre within a new Jewish museum and to seek an alternative to the proposed design of the Holocaust Memorial.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, I will be careful not to repeat what has already been said. I just want to draw attention to the availability of other sites that have been on offer for some years. The 2015 commission identified three sites: the Imperial War Museum, Potters Fields near Tower Bridge, and Millbank. There is still room on Millbank—I check all the time. A property was offered at one stage, which is no longer there, but there are empty buildings on Millbank for rent or sale. It is not necessary to build anything from scratch for a learning centre—or, indeed, for a museum, which, as many people have said, would be preferable to a learning centre.

The compromise we have offered would be a suitable figurative memorial in Victoria Tower Gardens. It should not be overlooked that the designer of the current memorial and learning centre is now discredited. He has withdrawn or been withdrawn from nearly all the projects with which he is linked because of the allegations made against him, which have not been settled in any way over the past two years. Why this designer should still be considered good enough for a Holocaust memorial is very troubling and worrying. We need a new design for that.

There happens to be an excellent sculptured memorial in Gladstone Park, London, by Fred Kormis, the German-Jewish sculptor. It deserves a wider audience and could be moved to Victoria Tower Gardens, where it would fit admirably and would certainly be a lot better than the absolutely meaningless design by a discredited designer that we are given now.

The Jewish community remains divided on this matter. It is not the case that it is mostly in favour—far from it. A lot of donors and officials support the project; scholars and everyday members do not necessarily do so. The Chief Rabbi represents the mainstream, but on the left, as it were—the progressive element—Rabbi Jonathan Romain, among others, is against the project, and on the right the very Orthodox Rabbi Gluck, who should not be discredited, represents their views. There is simply no one view. Indeed, the Jewish community has not really been given the chance to consider this because many do not know the details.

Given advances in technology, the need for a physical exhibition space of this sort is diminishing. Everything that we have been told will be in the learning centre could be put on a memory stick—if that is the modern technological way of doing things—and distributed to every school in the country without necessarily having to bring people to London.

In essence, Victoria Tower Gardens as a site is not right. What we are being given is not a memorial and it is not a Holocaust learning centre; it is a political function arguing that democracy protects Jews and prevents genocide. This misguided narrative assumes that situating a memorial near Parliament enhances democratic accountability. In reality, there is no evidence that such a placement impacts antisemitism or political decision-making. Although officials claim that parliamentarians will reflect on their responsibilities while viewing the memorial, a nearly £200 million project seems an excessive way to underscore the obvious reality that political decisions have consequences.

Across the world, memorials unfortunately unintentionally serve as staging grounds for political virtue signalling, with people posing in front of them to demonstrate their commitment to remembrance while engaging in anti-Israel actions. Politicians, as we know, can stand in front of a memorial or go to a remembrance ceremony and say, “There isn’t a racist bone in my body”, but then in the afternoon shake hands with Hamas.

Victoria Tower Gardens is therefore unsuitable both practically and ideologically. Before settling on it as perhaps a last resort, we know that there are other locations that would do far better, and it is time to give the community information about what is happening. This amendment about alternatives and the others present an opportunity to make a more meaningful and lasting impact. A figurative memorial in Victoria Tower Gardens—not the current one on offer—and a learning centre of greater depth and scholarship elsewhere could be achieved quickly and more economically. The real effort should begin. I beg to move.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, sites come into potential because of changes in the usage of buildings around London. Quite apart from the sites referred to by my noble friend in moving this amendment, there are at least two sites in the City of London that, in my view, could well be available if the Government would negotiate with the City of London Corporation. I believe that each of those sites, and possibly there are others, would be iconic in their own way but would not contain the risks involved in putting a learning centre in Victoria Tower Gardens.

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[Lord Pickles (Con)]

My Lords, I would very much like to be associated with the words expressed about the noble Baroness, Lady Berger. She is a great addition to this House and a woman of considerable courage. Like my noble friend, I have enormous admiration for the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. So far as I am aware, this is the only thing I have ever disagreed with her about. But I hope she will not mind if I do so here. I thought initially that she had just misspoken, but she has repeatedly said that the historian Martin Winstone did not know what was going into the memorial. That is not true. What he actually said—

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

I did not say that—I said that he was unable to explain to us what was going to be learned. He told us very clearly what was going to be in there, but when we asked what the lesson was to be learned, there was no answer.

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

No, that is not what was said. The reason why he could not talk about learning or about what it was going to look like was that, quite properly, we suspended the use of the consultants who are going to be the curators. As the Minister said, it is Ralph Appelbaum.

There has been praise from opponents of and proponents of the Holocaust exhibition in the Imperial War Museum. That was devised by Appelbaum. There is considerable praise for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, and that was designed by Appelbaum. The International African American Museum, which is extremely good, was also done by that firm, as was the First Americans Museum, as well as the Canadian Museum for Human Rights. Members will be able to travel down the river to look at the Crown Jewels exhibition, which is also curated by Appelbaum.

I have to say that the descriptions we have heard of Victoria Tower Gardens do not in any way equate to the reality. The place is a dump. It has been neglected as a dump—and those who speak so eloquently about it should have done something about it. In the summer it is a dustbowl, and in the winter it is a quagmire. Who is going to look after it? The people who were selected to do the landscaping for the Eiffel Tower. The French are a choosy nation—they only go for the best, and the place is going to look so much better. It is going to have paths that water can go through and which will not choke the roots of the trees, as the current paths do. People who are disabled and in wheelchairs will for the first time ever be able to enjoy the embankment. It seems to me to be utterly wrong that somehow, for property-owning reasons, we should deny the people of London, the people who live on the Peabody Estate, something better. This is going to be considerably better, since we as a Parliament have allowed it to be neglected, and I heartily support that.

It is also quite wrong to suggest that somehow, this museum is going to be about British triumphalism. We have repeatedly said that that is not going to be the case.

We have already had a non-Jew quote a rabbi, and as a non-Jew I would like to quote, from the Office Of The Chief Rabbi, Ephraim Mirvis, who is the Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom but also of the Commonwealth, and not easily dismissed. He says:

“In these highly challenging times, with rising antisemitism, I wholeheartedly support the creation of this UK Holocaust Memorial and Learning Centre. There can be no better place than Victoria Tower Gardens, in the shadow of our Parliament, in the heart of our nation’s capital, to act as our permanent reminder of the lessons we must continue to learn from the Holocaust for the sake of all in our society”.


When the Jewish community needed him, he stood up against antisemitism, and he stood up against Jeremy Corbyn. He did not suck up to Jeremy Corbyn. This is a man of great leadership, and his words should be listened to.

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I ask the noble Baronesses and the noble Lord to withdraw Amendment 5.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, it is a matter of regret that Committee took place in the Moses Room, where there was not much room for discussion or, indeed, attendance. Now we find that the Government are still trying to steamroller this through by whipping—which is quite wrong—and keeping us here late at night in the hope that people will get tired and go home. This needs more time.

Let me advert to some misconceptions in the speeches made. We have a National Holocaust Centre already—

[Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Lab)]

Let me just say to the noble Baroness that, in deciding on the fate of the amendment, it is not necessary to respond to all the points raised in the debate. It might be helpful to the House if we proceed to a decision.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

I have no intention of responding to all the points, but there were some things said that simply are not correct. Not all the survivors want a memorial, or one in this place. No one has studied the impact. There is all this talk about it having to be next to Parliament to make some signal about democracy, but there has been no study of the impact of location or visiting. No one has done a study to say, if you go and visit a Holocaust memorial museum, what you will feel like when you come out at the other end. The model that we have been given is somewhat misleading. It does not show the whole project.

As for the unfortunate little Victoria Tower Gardens, which is really a very nice place and an open space for Peabody building inhabitants and all those who live in flats, it is going to be real mess in the forthcoming years because it will be a repository for the scaffolding, the building equipment, concrete mixers, et cetera, associated with restoration and renewal. The prospect that anyone will be able to stroll around and enjoy it for the next 30 years or so is simply untrue.

As for the design, no due diligence was done at the outset, otherwise people would have realised that the design had already been presented in Ottawa. Since then, the same design has been used in Niger and in Barbados, so there is nothing in it about sensitivity or special affiliation to London, the park or the Jewish community.

Given the lateness of the hour, I can do nothing but withdraw the amendment, but the truth within it remains. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 5 withdrawn.

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[Lord Inglewood (CB)]

I think this will be a very short debate, because the right thing for me to do—bearing in mind that the last round in the planning process led to the application being quashed, and therefore it no longer exists in law at all, which means that it has to be redetermined de novo—is just to say to the Minister that I assume that he agrees with what I have put in the amendment.

My only additional comment is that the previous application was not quashed because of the London County Council Act; it was quashed because administrative mistakes were made.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, I did not add my name to this amendment, but the point of it is that the entire circumstances in which planning permission was first granted, and the project was first mooted, have entirely changed. I will make one small point about that. My research shows that the national Infrastructure and Projects Authority rated the project red, even at a stage when it had planning permission, because it is as flawed as HS2.

If we go back nine or 10 years, what do we find? Everything is different. Today, we know that for the next 30 years or so, Victoria Tower Gardens will be the site of rubble and building materials needed to repair the Palace of Westminster and Victoria Tower and for the replacement of the Parliament Education Centre. The appeal to the emotions of the special nature of Victoria Tower Gardens and its relationship to democracy, peace and quiet has entirely gone.

The Adjaye firm design can no longer be considered to be of exceptional quality, as the inspector put it, because we now know it is a third-hand design. We know that the design of the 23 fins has been condemned by Sir Richard Evans as not representing anything historical at all to do with the 22 countries whose Jewish populations were exterminated. We know from research that abstract memorials are vandalised far more than figurative ones because the former carry no emotional weight. A fresh start would entail having a proper religious or appealing motif to the design.

The need for open space has been shown as more persuasive than ever since lockdown. That space was used for the lying-in-state of the late Queen and for the queues for the Coronation, and may well be needed again. That is a very important space to keep open. There has been criticism by UNESCO and other international bodies. The flood risk has increased, and the environmental regulations call for new consideration; in other words, there needs to be fresh consideration of a situation entirely different from what prevailed nine or 10 years ago. That is what this amendment is trying to achieve.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I will be very brief, but on this side of the Chamber, we feel that these amendments are unnecessary because, as I have said so many times today, the planning process that will follow the passage of the Bill is the correct place to raise those matters. We are also concerned the amendment is not sufficiently specific and may leave the planning process open to an unnecessary legal challenge, which would, again, further delay the delivery of the memorial and learning centre. Therefore, we will not be supporting it.

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Moved by

[Baroness Deech]

9: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause—
“Restoration and Renewal of Parliament not to be impededThe activities described in section 1(1) may not be commenced on the land referred to in section 2 unless the authorities of both Houses of Parliament have certified that they are satisfied that those activities will not impede the approval and implementation of any restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster.”Member's explanatory statement
This Clause seeks to ensure that any Holocaust Memorial and/or Learning Centre in Victoria Tower Gardens has no adverse effect on the Restoration and Renewal of the Palace of Westminster including the planning consent for this project and the consequent disapplication of the London County Council (Improvements) Act 1900.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, I now come to the elephant in the room. I wish to bring up the question of the impact of building a Holocaust memorial and underground learning centre in Victoria Tower Gardens. It will either render impossible restoration and renewal or make it more difficult and expensive. I hope that the memorial is not built at all, but if it is built before R&R, it will get in the way. It is impossible to imagine a memorial to 6 million deaths taking shape and being visited when it will be surrounded, right up to its boundaries, by all the paraphernalia that will accompany R&R. Instead of reverence and contemplation, there will be masonry, concrete mixers, builders, scaffolding, material and a jetty, and trucks roaring by and unloading.

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[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, once we go through the planning process, provisions will be made in due course, when the time is right.

To conclude, I am confident that, with good will and commitment, there need be no significant conflict between the two programmes. I do not believe it is necessary to make changes to the Bill to ensure co-operation and I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw Amendment 9.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, future parliamentarians will read Hansard and wonder why we were so careless about the progress of R&R. Everything that we have heard in response has been wishful thinking: “Let’s hope it goes okay. With a bit of luck, it will all be managed”. We have heard no detail at all about how those two projects will interact with each other—absolutely nothing. The memorial will go nearly all the way to the Buxton memorial and R&R will be coming up the other end. There is no doubt that they will meet each other or overlap. We have been told that the planning process will deal with all of that but, as earlier questions have shown, we do not know what planning process we are going to get or what it will deal with, so we have no idea what will happen.

As for those poor children in the playground, sandwiched between asbestos, concrete and dust at one end and queues of people and possibly armed guards at the other, I feel for them. I have no option but to withdraw this amendment, but I warn Members that they are treading on thin ice as far as progress of R&R goes. It is not being taken as seriously as it should be and that is a great shame.

Amendment 9 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, as a botanist, I assure your Lordships that the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, is absolutely right about the extreme danger to the two rows of plane trees. I just have one question for the Minister, and I hope he can reply. Notwithstanding the text of Clause 2, can he say what measures the Government plan to put in place, if the proposed project is to go ahead unamended, to ensure the continued public benefit of Victoria Tower Gardens as a green space to the local population and to the workers in this building?

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, the plan has been condemned for about six years by UNESCO. The UNESCO World Heritage Committee has said that it will have an unacceptable adverse impact on the outstanding universal value of this important site. The International Council on Monuments and Sites has condemned it. Europa Nostra has shortlisted Victoria Tower Gardens as one of Europe’s seven most endangered sites. Historic England has expressed its reservations too.

Will the Minister explain why the advice of those international bodies is ignored, especially bearing in mind the willingness of the Government, as they keep saying, to observe international law. International treaties are important to us, say the Government, but here are some they are apparently prepared to ignore. I am sure others would like to hear why they are being ignored, and what answer the Government propose to give to those international bodies.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

I have seen the plans, and I know that those working on this project have gone to great lengths to make sure that they will protect Victoria Tower Gardens. They will improve the gardens—that will be the outcome of this project. From what we are hearing, it is as if nobody has taken any care about what they are doing and this has been put together in some hasty manner. This has been carefully planned and I urge noble Lords to respect the work that has gone into the planning. Nobody who is running this project would want to leave the gardens in a worse state. Everyone is intent on improving them, and adding this memorial.