UK and EU Relations

Lord Robathan Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, having listened to most of this debate, I have changed a few notes that I wrote and the tenor of my speech. I do not think that I am alone in being very disturbed, indeed astonished, by some of the views that have been expressed in this debate. Leaving aside the absolutely risible idea of a second referendum—not wanted by almost anybody in the country—why do some speakers imagine that Monsieur Barnier and Monsieur Juncker, or indeed the Irish Foreign Minister, must be right, and that their views must be heard, while considering that the UK Government in obeying the instruction of the British people must be wrong? It shows a complete lack of confidence, and personally I have confidence in the ability of both this country and the British people to flourish, as they have done in the past.

In this brief contribution I want to speak about general points, but I may try to come on to one or two particular position papers. Leaving the EU will not be in any way easy. We all know that—after 40 plus years of legislation and ever-closer union—but some in this debate seem to imagine, or create, greater difficulties than exist. I might expect it from BBC journalists, but I wish that some politicians would not wish to frustrate the democratic will of the people.

Before 1973—and I am younger than the average age in this House—there were no visas to travel to Europe. We could work and travel easily, pace the Iron Curtain. In the 1960s, I went on holiday to France, Germany and Spain; I trekked and skied; and travelled by train in Austria and Italy. We did not need visas; we just went. In 1973, just after we had joined, I hitch-hiked across the continent. I had friends who were teaching and working in France and Italy. So let us get things in perspective. Of course, we can cross borders without visas if we want to. We can work and live on the continent, and EU citizens can do the same, although there may be work permits both ways.

I want to raise three points, if I may, from the position papers. The first, which has been very well covered by my noble friend Lord Ridley, is on Euratom. Why on earth should there be problems about co-operating on civil nuclear issues and safeguarding material, et cetera? France and the United Kingdom are the only two nuclear powers in Europe—I remind the House that Germany has abandoned its nuclear programme. Of course, there are many other nuclear-energy countries, and of course we can continue to co-operate with all others on material, on energy, on medical research and so on. So what exactly is the problem that people raise? I thought that my noble friend Lord Ridley did an excellent job on that.

On defence, the only threat to NATO that I can see is that of the proposed European army, which would side-line NATO and exclude our North American allies, Canada and the United States. NATO has defended the West since 1949. It has grown from 12 countries then to 29 now. On security, we will of course co-operate with Europol and its European counterterrorism centre. Apparently we provide over 50% of the intelligence on crime and security, especially CT, to those organisations, so why would they not want to co-operate with us?

On Ireland, I turn very briefly to the border there. It has, of course, had a vexed history over the past century, but we should remember that not 100 years ago there was no border between the south and north; it was one country. Then, between 1922 and 1973, they were separate countries with border controls. But there were not really any border controls. There was an open border for so much of the time. I do not think we need to talk about reviving old enmities. Why should that be the case? It is not beyond the wit of man to come to a perfectly reasonable agreement with the Irish Republic—and indeed with the EU—over this matter. I was particularly asked to raise this point by somebody who knows much more than I do about this subject. While the British position paper is not perfect—none of them is, of course—the EU paper is inflexible and small-minded, and one should not just accept that paper as gospel. We should look at it very carefully and see whether we cannot come up with a very much better solution for the good of the people of both north and south Ireland.

These continental countries are our friends and allies, even if Monsieur Barnier wants to, as he said, educate us—which, to me, means teach us a lesson. Jean-Claude Juncker thinks David Davis is unstable. Guy Verhofstadt of the European Parliament rages against us. I prefer to be confident in the abilities of the United Kingdom and its people and its citizens to prosper outside the EU in co-operation with our friends and allies on the continent for our mutual prosperity and benefit.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hutton of Furness (Lab)]

My Lords, I bring the attention of your Lordships’ House to the interests I have declared in the register. I am chairman of the Nuclear Industry Association. It probably follows on from that that no one will be surprised to learn that I will confine my remarks largely to the decision which Ministers have made to take the United Kingdom out of membership of the European Atomic Energy Community. These follow the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley.

It is probably true to say that the decision to leave the Euratom treaty was one of the unintended consequences of the referendum. I do not recall a single supporter of the leave campaign banging their fists on the table and saying: “The UK must leave the Euratom treaty”. No one mentioned it, and for a perfectly good reason. The UK’s membership of this treaty has been the bedrock on which our nuclear industry has thrived and to which it owes its pre-eminent position today as one of the leading nuclear nations trading in goods and services, fissile and other material around the world. It has been essential for the growth of our nuclear industry. It is worth a little bit of context: the nuclear industry makes the same contribution to the UK economy as aerospace does, in terms of jobs, wealth creation and the taxes it pays to the Treasury. We should do all we can to protect and secure this strategic industry.

I welcome the publication of the Government’s position paper on exiting the Euratom treaty. It sets out six high-level principles and it is very difficult to pick an argument with any one of them because it is all common sense. No one in their right mind wants to see such an industry compromised or its trade around the world affected by a rash and badly implemented decision to leave this fundamentally important legal instrument. To answer the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, the principles are fine but there are still two fundamental problems at play. First, how are we going to achieve these principles in the most effective way? There is nothing in the position paper which gives an answer to that. Secondly, and more significantly, how are we going to do all the things which are necessary to do that in the 18 months that we have left before we leave the treaty?

It is worth reminding ourselves what we have got to do if the Government’s high-level principles are to be secured. We have got to agree a replacement voluntary offer safeguards agreement with the International Atomic Energy Authority. It would be useful if the Minister could tell us when she envisages this being in place. The particular problem is that we are going to have to renegotiate a number of nuclear co-operation agreements with our nuclear partners: the Euratom community itself, China, the United States, Canada, Australia, South Korea and Kazakhstan. What progress has been made on these new bilateral agreements? As a lawyer, I always study the precedents. Looking at the precedent established in the United States, in particular, these nuclear co-operation agreements have the status of international treaties and have to be approved by the United States Congress. Any student of politics will tell you that there has never been a treaty like this agreed by Congress in 18 months. So what do we do?

We clearly also need to clarify the validation of the UK’s current bilateral nuclear co-operation agreements with Japan and other states. Has that process begun yet? The Government must also set out the process for the movement of nuclear materials—goods, people, information and services—to be agreed, when we leave the treaty, with the Euratom Supply Agency. Have we made any headway with that? We have to agree also a new funding arrangement for the UK’s involvement in future fusion research and under the wider European Union nuclear R&D programme—

[Lord Robathan]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord who speaks with real authority on this. I understand the Swiss are associate members of Euratom. Would that be one way forward?

[Lord Hutton of Furness]

It certainly could be one way forward, but it has been ruled out by Ministers to date. It might well be that the best outcome is some form of associate membership. No one in this House, or outside this House, wants to see any harm done to the nuclear industry by leaving the Euratom treaty. But, if we are going to avoid that outcome, Ministers will have to show considerably more pragmatism than they have done to date in making sure harm is not caused to the industry in the way that the Article 50 negotiations are handled. The most obvious need of all, given the difficulties in negotiating these agreements, is that we do not actually leave the Euratom treaty until all the nuclear co-operation agreements are in place and are legally robust.

Trade in nuclear goods and services is different to trade in goods elsewhere. Unless there is a clear, robust legal framework for the movement of goods and services in nuclear materials, in most jurisdictions that we trade with, that trade becomes instantly illegal. It is a cliff edge which is much more apparent and real than the consequences and dangers of exiting the European Union without an agreement on future trade arrangements under Article 50. This is the ultimate cliff edge. If there is no agreement with other nuclear states within the 18-month period we have left, we are in a serious position. I urge the Minister and her colleagues in the Government not only to confirm tonight that they are willing to be pragmatic and look at extending the transitional periods of membership of the Euratom treaty, but to keep this House more fully updated on the progress of these important negotiations.