Lord Stunell
Main Page: Lord Stunell (Liberal Democrat - Life peer)Department Debates - View all Lord Stunell's debates with the HM Treasury
(11 years ago)
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Catherine McKinnell
I am very shocked to hear of those comments. I missed them at the time. If the Minister wants to explain her position or the Liberal Democrat Front-Bench position on these amendments, I will be glad to hear it.
Catherine McKinnell
Does the right hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell) wish to intervene?
Andrew Stunell
With the permission of the Chair, in a minute or two I hope to be able to tell the Committee fully.
Catherine McKinnell
Excellent. I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s intervention. We look forward to clarification of the Liberal Democrats’ position on the issue, and we hope it does not go the same way as their mansion tax vote went earlier, when they voted against their own policy for the second time.
I call on all right hon. and hon. Members to support our amendment 8, which would monitor the impact of the GAAR and ensure that the Government take genuine action towards securing the tax transparency and fairness that the world needs in this 21st century. We also seek to test the will of the House by pressing our amendment 6 to a vote, to determine whether the House will commit to ensuring that we do all we can in our power to tackle tax avoidance that is damaging not just to the UK, but to developing countries.
I finish by reiterating briefly concerns that I have expressed on several occasions in the Chamber and elsewhere about the huge number of challenges facing HMRC, highlighted recently by yet another scathing report from the Public Accounts Committee. The very body on which the Government rely to tackle tax avoidance is being seriously undermined by devastating budget cuts of £2 billion over this Parliament and the loss of 10,000 staff. These cuts will be a false economy if they hamper HMRC’s ability to collect the billions of pounds in avoided tax, and all the tough talk, strategies and moral indignation in the world will not deal with the problem of tax avoidance if HMRC simply does not have the capacity and resources it requires to do the job.
Andrew Stunell
I strongly support the general anti-avoidance rule and its introduction. Some would say that it is long overdue. Bearing in mind what the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) has just said, how important and urgent it is and how long-standing the problem has been, one has to say that it was overdue in 2010, so it is good that it is in place now. I commend Ministers on the Front Bench for including it in the proposals coming to the Committee now.
I shall spend a minute or two commenting on what my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) said in his speech a little while ago, making it clear that there are some risks and some dangers, particularly of retrospection. The Minister will know that we have been in correspondence about one particular series of events which has left constituents of mine at a severe disadvantage, as they see it, because of the retrospective application of an HMRC ruling to them.
What I want to say to my hon. Friend is that one thing that the general anti-avoidance rule will do is put everybody in this country on notice about their tax affairs so that they cannot be caught by surprise, or perhaps even subterfuge or a recycling of policy, in the way that my constituents have been. I will continue to write to the Minister about the case facing my constituents, but a general anti-avoidance rule puts everybody on notice and makes any possibility of an excuse disappear. We should welcome that.
Nigel Mills
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is preferable that only people who engage in aggressive tax abuse should be put on notice, and that people innocently going about trying to structure their affairs normally within the law should not be scared of the provision at all?
Andrew Stunell
I was very attracted to one point that my hon. Friend made in his speech, which was that he thought there was a tendency not to go for the biggest fish with the sharpest teeth and the most expensive lawyers, but to go for the little people or at least the middle-sized people. That is a powerful point and I hope those on the Front Bench are listening carefully. A general anti-avoidance rule needs to be general—that is to say, applicable to even the biggest fish with the sharpest teeth and the most expensive lawyers.
In amendment 6 and several others, some of which were debated earlier today and some more of which will be debated tomorrow, the Labour Front-Bench team has given us a very pretty set of trinkets. They all start with the phraseology
“The Chancellor shall review the possibility of”
doing this, that and the other. They have all obviously been produced by Labour’s amnesia factory, which has forgotten entirely that, on general election day in 2010, the country, the public purse, borrowed £428 million. The day before it borrowed £428 million, and the day after it borrowed £428 million. I commend Government Front Benchers again for reducing that figure by a quarter—a substantial amount. It is surprising that the range of amendments and the speeches made by Labour Members in the Budget debate, including today, have all said that the right solution to the problem is to borrow more. That is not the right solution, and, as I say, the amnesia factory is churning them out.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
For the sake of accuracy, would the right hon. Gentleman care to mention one single Labour Member who has advocated borrowing in the course of their speech?
Andrew Stunell
I heard the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his reply to the Budget debate, make exactly that point.
I want to ask not just about the result of this Chancellor’s potential review of the possibility of doing various things, but the result of the previous Chancellor’s review of all these attractive propositions. None of the things in these propositions is novel. The mansion tax in particular was not even invented by the Opposition. Yet it would seem that the right course of action now is to “review the possibility of”. What was the result of the last Chancellor’s review of the possibility of increasing tax transparency internationally? What action did he take? What report did he leave in the pigeonhole for the incoming Chancellor? I suppose that Opposition Front Benchers’ proper line of defence is to say that they cannot recall.
Whatever the parentage of amendment 6, I want to spend a few moments talking about it. I just say in passing that, whatever else it does, it certainly does not do what the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North claimed, which is to take a grasp of this key issue. It says that it wants a review of the possibility of. That is not taking a grasp of anything.
I am proud that in the Budget the Chancellor confirmed the UK Government’s promise to meet the 0.7% GNI target for overseas aid. These are not easy times, and as my constituency mailbag shows, it is not a universally popular decision. But it is the right decision, and it is one that I am proud to see the Government have been ready to take. It channels vital resources from the richest nations, of which we are definitely still one, to those that need it most. But it is also the case that those countries need not only our aid, but the tax revenue to support public services in their countries on their own, so that health there, education there, water supply there—all the aspects of development—can be paid for out of the tax that they should be receiving, supported of course by our continuing aid programme.
The Enough Food for Everyone IF campaign—I think that I am the only Member in the Chamber who is wearing the lapel badge, which is also available in other colours—is an important initiative, which I hope will be powerful and effective, as the Drop the Debt and the Jubilee Debt campaigns were, in convincing politicians of all political stripes that further action on this is needed urgently. The UN, the IMF, the OECD and the World Bank, not to mention our own International Development Committee, have all strongly made the point that when we plan our tax affairs we should be aware of the impact that can have, and should have, on improving the tax income of developing nations.
Fiona O'Donnell
On that point, may I press the right hon. Gentleman to address amendment 7, which expresses the view of not only Opposition Front Benchers, but the International Development Committee, which recommended an impact assessment of the controlled foreign company rules, and that Committee is chaired by a member of his own party?
Andrew Stunell
Indeed, it is. There are many propositions made here that are highly desirable, and I would not be at all disappointed if the Front-Bench team agreed to accept amendment 7 and a number of others. The point I am making is that what we need across all political parties in the House, and beyond, is strong consensus in favour of not only continuing our achievement of the aid target, but ensuring that we assist developing nations by getting our tax affairs straight and helping them to do likewise.
Sheila Gilmore
The right hon. Gentleman correctly says that we need to keep up our efforts on aid, but if the controlled foreign company rules have potentially lost £1 billion to developing countries, as Government Front Benchers appear to accept, that affects our ability to give aid. Would it not make sense to review whether that is correct, because it might ever be more?
Andrew Stunell
Indeed, and I will move on to that shortly. Based on all that has gone before, I think that the Minister will say that the Government have every intention of ensuring that those things happen and that the work being promoted by the IF campaign becomes mainstream in this House and the outcome we all wish to see. I support that campaign and its objectives and am keen for the Government to adopt them and be supportive as well. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for International Development is sitting just in front of me on the Front Bench, and I know that she works very hard on those matters as well.
I do not think that the trinket presented to us in amendment 6 is the core of what we need. I challenge the Government to give an undertaking that the proposals in the Finance Bill will be moved on so that multinationals are required to reveal the tax avoidance schemes they are using in the developing world and developing countries are helped to collect more of the tax they are owed. I pay tribute to the work, which I think was initially promoted by the International Development Committee in the previous Parliament, and which I know this Government have taken up with some enthusiasm, of supporting developing countries to create effective tax systems of their own. I know that the work that has been done in Zambia is seen as a template for other countries around the world. I encourage the Government to move forward in that direction.
Jim Shannon
The right hon. Gentleman is bringing to the Committee’s attention the issue of large multinational companies avoiding tax in other countries around the world. Does he agree that it is an issue not only for this House, but for other investment countries, such as the United States, and that together we can address the problem of big companies trying to avoid tax in third-world countries?
Andrew Stunell
Yes, I very much agree. Indeed, I have heard Ministers say that they agree. It is why it is important to work through the G8, the OECD and even the UN to get some level of international engagement on that. As is so often the case, those necessary and important international outcomes cannot be achieved by one country taking an initiative on its own. That does not deter me from arguing that the United Kingdom should be giving the necessary leadership, but I think that we have to be realistic about how we can achieve those outcomes.
Stephen Doughty
The right hon. Gentleman made a significant point about the importance of supporting developing countries in developing their tax systems and revenue collection capacity. Was he not surprised, as I was, to see the 8% underspend in the Department for International Development budget this year, given that the Department has given significant support to such projects in the past? Perhaps less support will be going to such activity in future because of that underspend.
Andrew Stunell
In all honesty, I was not surprised because that rule has always been in place. I do not have to hand figures on any similar underspend before 2010, but if I did I am absolutely certain that the Chancellor of the time would have repossessed it. That is part of the system of central Government control of our expenditure. I can understand that the hon. Gentleman is perhaps not in favour of strict control of public expenditure, but it is important that we do not lose sight of the overall objectives.
I shall conclude. I very much support the Government’s direction of travel on the issue. I am delighted that the general anti-avoidance rule is coming into place. The Government will know that I support the IF campaign and therefore I do not think they have gone far enough or yet fast enough. I look forward to the Minister’s giving me some words of comfort when he replies.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
It is abhorrent that large companies up and down the country should be avoiding paying their taxes while our constituents are squeezed by the Government at every opportunity. We call on the Government to take vigorous action on tax avoidance. To date, however, despite the Government’s rhetoric, they have consistently failed to deliver.
Quite simply, the cuts to HMRC go too far. With more than 10,000 additional job losses, they will prove to have been a false economy if the Government hamper HMRC’s ability to collect billions of pounds in avoided tax. It is not right and cannot be fair that, while families and small businesses are paying their fair share and feeling the squeeze, large enterprises are allowed to practise “if we can afford it, we can avoid it” tactics.
We believe that the best means of tackling tax avoidance is through not only principle but proper targeted measures and greater capacity in HMRC. If the Government are relying only on the general anti-avoidance rule to do the job, we fear it will not be sufficient. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) has said, we are willing to support the Government’s introduction of GAAR, but we remain unconvinced that the current version is up to the job.
Let me give but one example of how my constituents are feeling the axe while big companies avoid the tax. A group of women attended my surgery last Friday asking, “Why have we been hit while some big businesses seem to escape?” My constituent Mrs Christine Houston of Port Glasgow was made redundant as demand fell and her company experienced economic hardship. She managed to find a part-time job but she works unsociable hours. Her benefits, which acted as a safety net to allow her to live, have now also been cut. Now she has been unfairly affected by the Government’s pension reforms; she was born in October ’53, so she will receive less pension than her two best friends, who were born in March that year. Despite having started work when she was 16 and having paid her share of taxes ever since, she cannot plan for her future as a direct result of the Government’s actions. “Why,” she and her friends ask, “are multinationals plying their trade in this country and getting off lightly on tax while we are being hit hard? Where is the fairness in that?”
HMRC’s most recent estimate, for the period 2010-11, of tax difference—that is, between the tax actually collected and what would have been collected if everybody had complied with the letter and spirit of the law—stands at a staggering £32 billion-plus, and some regard that estimate as low. Serious concerns exist that the Government’s proposed GAAR is too narrow and that they have failed to clarify that it will not cover most of the tax-avoidance activity undertaken by multinational corporations about which the general public are so concerned. HMRC must have the capacity and resources it requires to tackle tax avoidance properly. The Government are undermining its ability to do so with the budget cuts of over £2 billion in this Parliament, leading to 10,000 job losses. While we all agree that making genuine efficiencies is important, there has to be a limit to its capacity to do more with less. The current scale of cuts risks being a false economy if the Government reduce HMRC’s tax yield.
In these tough times, when the Government are cutting spending and raising taxes, it is even more important that everyone plays their part and pays their fair share of tax. Good British firms and millions of families are paying their fair share, but it is not right that some firms do not, and I think we all agree that that needs to change. We must put an end to the era of tax secrecy, because the reason some companies behave like this is that they believe there is little chance of their being found out. We need to reform the rules that allow companies that make profits in Britain but avoid paying tax in Britain to ensure that they do pay their tax.
Recent cases of companies that have manipulated the tax rules to reduce the tax they pay in the UK to virtually nothing have rightly outraged all those people and businesses who do pay their fair share of tax. My constituents in Inverclyde, and hard-working families and businesses, rightly ask why some seem to think that the rules do not apply to them. It is clearly unfair and further undermines companies that do pay their tax, expecting a level playing field. Over the Easter recess, I visited many small and medium-sized companies, and time and again they talked about no growth in the economy, low demand, and larger businesses avoiding paying their taxes while they were expected to pay theirs, and on time. Sometimes, yes, there will be good reasons why companies pay little tax. Some companies invest large sums in research and development, assets and infrastructure, and we should, and do, celebrate and welcome that. However, we also need to know when companies are stripping their profits out of the UK through artificial schemes.
The Government are undermining HMRC’s ability to administer and collect tax by cutting resources too far and too fast—a familiar, failing theme of this Government. HMRC now has more staff working on administering the Government’s child benefit cut than it employs, combined, to tackle tax evasion and avoidance. The people of this country are demanding reform of the current rules that allow companies to make profits in Britain but pay no tax. That also requires reform of our corporation tax system. In the 21st century, value is now often in brands and intellectual property, customer loyalty and ideas that can be traded globally between different parts of the company group. The rules need to be clearer, tighter and properly enforced.
The Government are failing to show the leadership we need to tackle tax avoidance, yet are vigorously pursuing others to help to fill the Treasury’s coffers. The Conservatives and their coalition partners are failing to convince constituents such as Mrs Houston of Port Glasgow that we are all in it together, or that, with their many references to fairness in both their manifestos, they are living up to that fairness. I ask the Minister to explain to Mrs Houston why the Government seem reluctant to tackle tax avoidance and to give her back her pension.
Fiona O'Donnell
I found the right hon. Gentleman’s reticence in that regard particularly difficult, but I hope he will now redeem himself.
Andrew Stunell
I am happy to agree with the hon. Lady: it is true that the previous Government took the issue seriously and I was happy to serve on the International Development Committee during that time. I say to her, however, that we have taken the issue further.
Fiona O'Donnell
Exactly. We have passed on the torch of 0.7% and I pay credit to the Government. It must be a lot harder for them to take that direction of travel than it was for us, because our Back Benchers were supportive of it. It is not enough, however, for Lib Dems to be warmly supportive of the Government and hope that they will not be disappointed. They have to start voting for what they believe in, what they put in their manifesto and what their conference told them it wants them to do. That is why I intervened earlier on the right hon. Gentleman on the subject of the CFC and its effect. I hope that the Minister will say that he is listening not only to the Opposition but to the Select Committee and its report. The Committee has asked for an impact assessment, and we need to be clear about that. Much as I often disagree with coalition Members, I cannot believe that they intended the CFC to have that effect. An impact assessment would show whether it will damage developing countries.
The right hon. Gentleman also spoke about the IF campaign. It is clear that an essential part of tackling poverty and hunger is having a fair and transparent tax system. It is not surprising that people in this democracy should be outraged by large corporations not paying their fair dues, but we sometimes seem to think that it is all right for developing countries. Do they have to expect their natural resources to be plundered?