Holocaust Memorial Bill

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 11th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I want very briefly to take on a couple of inferences in what was said by the noble Lords, Lord Evans and Lord Harper. The sentiment was that we must show courage and face down terrorist supporters. Some of us have been arguing that for some time and, to be honest, there has been an almighty silence from many people in Parliament. I just did not like the inference that, somehow, the movers of this amendment were cowering when, in fact, they are the very people who have argued in many instances for fighting back against the antisemitism that has been on our streets. That was my first point.

I also thought that the suggestion that we in Parliament are so brave and can protect the learning centre next door in the park was slightly ill judged, given that Parliament seems increasingly like Fort Knox. We are, in fact, not in a situation where we are all wandering around freely and bravely, yet we are suggesting that we open up the park to the public for a learning centre and that they can just wander in, whereas we need armed guards, big barriers everywhere and so on. It is an unfair and ludicrous comparison.

There will be, and there should be, a memorial in the gardens—everybody agrees with that. It will be a hugely important symbol. The idea that anyone who does not want the learning centre to be there therefore does not want a learning centre misses all of the hours and hours of debates in which we explained where we did want a learning centre—a fitting learning centre—to be. To be honest, the plan for an underground learning centre is rather insulting, in my opinion. We should recognise that the people putting forward this amendment are doing so in good faith, not because they are frightened of terrorist supporters but because they are being sensible about the real consequences of what we are deciding here today.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not doubt that those people are acting in good faith; they just happen to be wrong. I can give noble Lords an assurance that my noble friend will not go home to a divorce tonight if this amendment is not agreed. I respect that he has been a Minister in more senior positions than I can ever aspire to.

[A noble Lord]

Secretary of State.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

Sorry, Secretary of State.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

I just want to make sure that the record is correct. I did not say that I faced a divorce if the Bill passed. I said that I would face the divorce if I did not vote for the amendment.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My apologies; I have to be careful with my words on this issue.

I oppose the amendment. We have heard these arguments before, quite frankly. I oppose it not because I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has great experience of planning, as do others who support it. I am just puzzled; we are saying that a memorial centre is okay and we can deal with the security for that, but somehow we cannot do the same for a learning centre. I do not understand.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

No, I am not going to give way because I have not finished developing my argument. I had to listen to quite a few minutes from the noble Lord; I will not give way until I have finished, then the noble Lord can tell me that I am wrong, which I am bound to be because I have only ever been a junior Minister.

I do not accept as a valid argument that the learning centre is impossible to protect. Of course it is difficult to protect Parliament; people are not just going to wander in and out. We have already heard that you have to make appointments online. Of course there will be significant security. It is not that I think that those who tabled the amendment did so in bad faith or because they want to undermine the proposal. I just happen to think they are wrong in their analysis in suggesting that we cannot provide a safe and secure environment.

Will the learning centre undermine the Buxton memorial? No, of course it will not, because it will be done sensitively. I see noble Lords shaking their heads as if we are going to reduce it to something insignificant—no, we will not do that. We want to make the whole complex something to be admired and respected. Have we got the planning capacity to do it? In my opinion, we have. Have we got the security ability to do it? I believe that we have.

What would the amendment really do? Once again, it says that Victoria Tower Gardens is not the right place, and even it was we could not provide the security. My reason for opposing it is not to doubt the genuine intent and sincerity of those who support the amendment, but to say that, in my view, I think they are wrong.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I have not so far taken part in this debate, although I did in Committee. I simply want to say that I strongly support the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, but I want to get down to the nitty-gritty. Perhaps the Minister can help by answering my questions. I am trying to envisage what the memorial will look like with the security in place. How many police officers will be at each entrance? How many will be involved in its security? Will they be armed or unarmed guards? Will they be there 24 hours a day, or will the park shut so we will not then need them? I ask for a few simple answers.