Marcus Jones
Main Page: Marcus Jones (Conservative - Nuneaton)Homelessness Reduction Bill (Fourth sitting)
Marcus Jones ExcerptsWednesday 14th December 2016
(7 years, 4 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Homelessness Reduction Act 2017 View all Homelessness Reduction Act 2017 Debates Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 14 December 2016 - (14 Dec 2016)
Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this morning, Mr Chope. We do not oppose the variation, because it is important to get the drafting of the Bill accurate. I do however want to raise a concern. I am sure we are all capable of coping with taking clauses in any order, but, as we are now waiting on Government amendments in relation to clause 7 and, more importantly, clause 1, it would be useful to get an indication as to when those will be circulated. That is my first point.
Secondly, inevitably consideration will be stretched into the new year. I think there was probably an informal wish on both sides of the Committee that matters could be concluded before the recess but that clearly will not be possible. We have made our contribution to try to speed up the process in deeds rather than words by not moving several amendments and new clauses and either making those points more briefly in clause stand part debates that happen anyway, or by reserving the right to bring them back on Report.
I say that in the consensual spirit in which the Committee has largely proceeded thus far, but it would be helpful to get an idea of when the Bill’s promoter and the Government will be able to table the further amendments, whether we have some idea of when we might conclude, and whether it is in the mind of the promoter to schedule additional sittings—this is also a matter for you, Mr Chope—either before the recess next Tuesday, which is tight, or, if we are to sit on the morning of 11 January, later on that day or on another day that week. This event, as unfortunate as it may be, may focus our minds on those matters.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Marcus Jones)
To reassure the hon. Member for Hammersmith, the amendment to clause 7 is due to an unforeseen situation in relation to its drafting. He is correct that we need to get the Bill right and therefore we have had to take some additional time to change the drafting. He is also correct that a final version of clause 1 is still outstanding. I expect that those proposed changes to the Bill should be drafted shortly and laid in order to enable us to debate them on 11 January. If that were to be the case, I expect them to be laid by the Christmas recess.
Bob Blackman
I thank the hon. Member for Hammersmith for raising those issues. Clearly the amendments to clauses 1 and 7 are not available to us. I thank the Minister for clarifying when he expects to table them. We have proceeded thus far on a cross-party, consensual basis, and it is clearly our intention to continue to do so. There is no intention to rush things so that amendments do not receive proper consideration, particularly where they are detailed, as with clause 7. There is a more substantive amendment to clause 1 and we want everyone to be able to see and review it before we debate it.
My intention as the Bill’s promoter is that, depending on our progress this morning, we shall reconvene on the morning of 11 January. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Hammersmith for not moving his amendments and new clauses, which should enable us to make speedier progress. If we are not able to conclude on the morning of 11 January, my intention would be to table a motion to bring us back on 18 January, including the afternoon if necessary, so that we would conclude on that date at the very latest. The Bill could then return to the Chamber on Report and hopefully Third Reading before being dispatched to the other place.
I appeal to Opposition Members: if there are amendments it is better for us to debate them here than for them to be debated on the Floor of the House. We can consider things in detail, from the perspective of detailed knowledge; otherwise there is the potential for delay and a risk that the Bill will be derailed in the Chamber. I trust that we can agree on the revised order of consideration.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 5
Duties owed to those who are homeless
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Michael Tomlinson
Perhaps you will permit me, Mr Chope, before I comment on clause 5, to thank the Chairman of the Select Committee, who, through the Clerk to the Bill Committee, made Daisy-May Hudson’s film available to all of us who do not sit on that Committee. It was both compelling and difficult to watch, and it was illuminating for those of us who had not seen it before.
I suppose that we all sincerely hope that if clause 4 is successful in its aim of preventing homelessness, when there is a threat of it, clause 5 will not be needed, but I agree that it is none the less an important clause. I should welcome some clarity from the Minister and from my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East about the sort of reasonable steps that are to be expected of local authorities.
As to what the hon. Member for Hammersmith said about local authorities, I agree that they work hard and that, certainly going by my experience in Dorset—in Poole, East Dorset, and Purbeck—they are struggling with resources. I should welcome clarity on the matter of reasonable steps, although my hon. Friend suggested a few. I understand—and you know this better than any of us, Mr Chope—that it is not desirable to set out in a Bill each and every reasonable step, and that guidance may be anticipated in due course, but it would still be helpful for the Committee to understand in more detail what the reasonable steps would be.
I am sure that that clarity will be forthcoming, and in view of that I warmly support the clause.
Mr Jones
The Government support clause 5, which introduces a new duty to households that are homeless, known as the relief duty. It requires the local housing authority to take reasonable steps to help to secure accommodation for any eligible homeless household.
Like the new prevention duty, the relief duty extends help and support to a wider range of households. It applies to all, regardless of priority need and intentionality, and provides 56 days of help and support. It provides an additional safety net for those households for which homelessness prevention activity has not been successful. It also provides additional help for households that have sought help at a later stage.
The type of help that they receive will be based on the information identified during the assessment process, which I talked about when we discussed clause 3. The authority and the applicant would identify the reasonable steps that the applicant would take, through that process. For example, if the main issue is that a household member has left home after a relatively minor disagreement with their family and that is the only cause of their homelessness, the local authority can provide mediation to try to reunite the household. I think that is the type of example that my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole was looking for.
Households in priority need, for example those with dependent children or vulnerable for some reason, will be provided with interim accommodation for the duration of the duty. They will be placed in interim accommodation as there is an expectation that the relief duty will be successful and they might be required to move to new settled accommodation at short notice. Less time spent in interim accommodation will mean less uncertainty for the household, so they can start rebuilding their lives more quickly.
Like the prevention duty, the relief duty can come to an end in a number of different ways. Again, it might be helpful if I set out some of the most important. The way we envisage it will be most frequently ended is through help to secure accommodation. If the authority is satisfied that the applicant has suitable accommodation and there is a reasonable prospect of their retaining it for at least six months, the duty will come to an end.
The duty can also come to an end if the local authority has taken reasonable steps for a period of 56 days but those steps have not relieved homelessness. In that case, the advice and information duty persists and those in priority need can move to the main homelessness duty.
Ms Buck
A frequent cause of homelessness that I see is young people living in severely overcrowded accommodation with their parents and families. If a young person approaches a local authority, does the Minister consider it would be reasonable for the local authority to require that person to return to a home that is by any reasonable measure overcrowded?
Mr Jones
I would say that the local authority would have to look at the circumstances on a case-by-case basis. I would make another point to the hon. Lady. I know that she would have supported the spare-room subsidy for people in private rented accommodation but she does not support the principle of the spare-room subsidy for people in social housing. However, that policy is freeing up accommodation that will support larger families of the type she describes.
Mr Jones
That is something the hon. Lady needs to speak to her local authority about. I would need to see more details to comment further on that.
Both the prevention and relief duties, in conjunction with clauses 3 and 7, place an element of responsibility on the households themselves. They will be required to take their own reasonable steps to assist the relief of their homelessness. Requiring co-operation in that way means that, if an applicant deliberately or unreasonably refuses to co-operate, the duty can come to end. How that will work will be explained when we discuss clause 7.
A crucial difference between the prevention duty and the relief duty is that authorities may determine whether an applicant has a local connection with their district. If it is demonstrated that an applicant has a local connection with another district, a referral can take place. A relief duty provides another level of support and assistance for those households not in priority need that have become homeless. It is an important addition to the safety net and I welcome its inclusion in the Bill.
I will respond to some of the other issues raised. Taking your guidance, Mr Chope, I will not go as wide as some of those points. I see that I am receiving your endorsement to that approach, and I will try to follow that advice.
With regard to the points raised by the hon. Member for Hammersmith on funding, he will not be surprised to hear me say again that the Bill will be funded. We are dealing with and speaking carefully to the Local Government Association and local authorities to make sure that we get the funding right. He will also note that there is a long-standing new burdens doctrine that we have to follow in that regard. I entirely accept what he says about this burden not being a situation that a local authority currently has to bear as such, and we are therefore approaching the funding to it on that basis. However, as several of my hon. Friends have pointed out, although this is not a duty that generally exists at the moment, there will ultimately be benefits to local authorities upstream, in terms of savings that can be made further down the line.
The hon. Gentleman also mentioned temporary accommodation. I know that is an important issue in London. As he will know, we are devolving the temporary accommodation management fee, which will give local authorities a far better way to plan for temporary accommodation. I can also say to him that I have been disturbed by some of the stories I have heard about the approach that has been taken to securing temporary accommodation, in which local authorities have effectively been outbidding each other in certain cases. That is a real cause for concern, and I am trying to instigate work with London Councils to try to overcome that particular issue.
The hon. Gentleman also mentioned tenancy length. The average length of an assured shorthold tenancy is actually four years, but I understand what he says about 12-month tenancies. I discussed that at considerable length with my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East and we came to the conclusion that, if we try to be too prescriptive on 12-month tenancies, it would cause a particularly difficult issue in places such as London, where a lot of landlords may not be willing to grant an assured shorthold tenancy for that length of time. However, what we are doing here does not preclude granting 12-month assured shorthold tenancies. We are trying to encourage landlords to engage with us and to take up the model tenancy agreement, which advocates a longer length of tenancy.
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)
It may be the case that the average length of actual tenancy turns out to be four years. However, does the Minister accept that, within those four years, if the specified length of tenancy is one year, those tenants are nevertheless living with a lack of security and the uncertainty that the landlord could, if they choose, evict that tenant at will or bring the tenancy to an end? That lack of security is the issue as much as what happens in practice in terms of the average length of tenancy.
Mr Jones
The hon. Lady may be leading me down a road that makes me incur the wrath of the Chairman. There is certainly a balance to be struck between people having certainty and people having somewhere to live. The challenge is, if we try to mandate very long tenancies on private landlords, we may soon find that we do not have the supply of private rented accommodation that we need.
Will Quince (Colchester) (Con)
I am a former property lawyer, and I know the Minister also has considerable experience in this field. He will know that the stumbling block here is in fact the Council of Mortgage Lenders and insurers, which say that a tenancy of more than one year is not permissible in case the mortgage holder defaults and they need therefore to sell the property as quickly as possible to recover their losses. It is actually those two different groups that prohibit leases or assured shorthold tenancies of more than one year.
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend has considerable experience in this area and is absolutely right. That was one of the challenges for residential landlords, particularly buy-to-let landlords, who are restricted by the terms of a particular mortgage product they take. Mandating landlords to take a longer tenancy than either a mortgage lender or an insurance company may desire would cause a significant conflict and might mean that tenants are not able to secure a tenancy.
David Mackintosh
At the outset of the Bill, we said that in terms of helping homeless people some issues can be dealt with, but others may have to be dealt with separately. There is a housing White Paper coming later this year.
Mr Jones
The housing White Paper will address many of the issues regarding supply. My hon. Friend gives me a good segue to bring my comments to an end. The relief duty will bring another level of support and assistance for households not in priority need. He is right that the Bill is an extremely important part of dealing with some of the challenges we have, but it will not be a panacea so it would probably be best if we spent more time debating the substantive clauses.
Michael Tomlinson
This is an important point. In relation to this clause, the Minister spelled out the importance of flexibility and the interplay between six-month and 12-month tenancies. Will he explain and persuade the Committee of the evidence for that? I hear the arguments from both sides of the Committee about the importance of security, but will he spell out the evidence on six-month tenancies? I hear what my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester said, but this is a crucial point.
Mr Jones
I think we all recognise that the ideal situation would be to have 12-month tenancies for the people we are discussing. Often they are in a very difficult position, and that additional certainty may well be very helpful to them. We also have to acknowledge that there are a number of barriers to that. I am not saying that in future we may not get to the promised land in this sense, but we have to be realistic about the current situation.
While we are talking about six-month tenancies, the measure does not preclude 12-month tenancies. As I said earlier, we are speaking to landlord groups and other stakeholders to agree things such as model tenancy agreements, so that we can get to a position where all parties come to the conclusion that 12-month tenancies are more desirable than six-month ones.
Ms Buck
I am grateful. Does the Minister share my dismay at the explosion in the use of nightly booked accommodation for homeless households? Does he accept that particularly for vulnerable people or families with children, not knowing where they will be from one day to the next is a huge problem? Will he act to stop it?
Mr Jones
Again, we are going slightly awry here, but we have been concerned about that. That is why we are doing a huge amount of work to put local authorities in a better position to secure temporary accommodation and plan for the future. I completely agree with the hon. Lady that the practice she mentions is not desirable or one we endorse.
Bob Blackman
We have had a wide-ranging debate on this clause. I will answer some of the points raised.
The hon. Member for Hammersmith raised important issues such as the knock-on effects for priority need households of extending the duty to single homeless and others who previously did not come under it. That is an important aspect of the Bill and one of the reasons why there will be funding for it under the new burdens doctrine. We look forward to the Minister announcing the extent of that funding soon—that is parlance that I have heard from colleagues across the House. This is clearly an issue, and we do not want to get to a position where priority need households are disadvantaged at all as a result of these new measures.
The hon. Gentleman also raised the 24-year low in building social rented accommodation. To correct my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate, I think we can all say that the Government’s record-breaking £3.15 billion settlement with London for it to build 90,000 affordable homes is a great start to the process. The provision of housing goes beyond the scope of the Bill, but it is of course part and parcel of the whole process. If we give local authorities duties to help and advise and provide accommodation, we need that accommodation. Forgive me, Mr Chope, but I recall the hon. Member for Hammersmith opposing tooth and nail the Transport for London Bill, which I took through, and provided for TfL to supply affordable housing across London. I am sure he regrets that opposition now that his colleague the new Mayor of London can implement that wide-ranging and far-sighted proposal, which I had the honour of making.
Bob Blackman
During the Select Committee inquiry, several witnesses made clear that they were happy to approach the local authority to get help and advice and then take action. The problem that they experienced at first was not getting the help and advice from the local authority. Many individuals were homeless for the first time and were shocked at not knowing what to do and how to do it. If the local authority were to act as a one-stop shop and point them in the right direction, they would be perfectly able to secure accommodation. They just want that extra assistance. We do not want to bind the hands of people who are perfectly capable of looking after themselves but just need that extra help and advice, given that they face a major crisis in their lives.
Mr Jones
In an area with high demand where properties are snapped up quickly, a family might want to move to a certain property. If they have to go back to the local authority for it to inspect the property, that would cause delay and the property might be taken by somebody else in the interim. Is that not the type of situation we are trying to avoid?
Bob Blackman
Indeed. We will come later to the duty of the local authority to inspect properties. This is a sensible change that would mean that local authorities could work much more efficiently and households would have more choice over where they live. That is often a key demand. In our surgeries, people often say that local authorities are making offers of properties in completely unreasonable locations. This measure would give applicants far more control over their future lives. I trust that we can agree to the clause and move on.
Andy Slaughter
I was not going to speak to the clause, but I will do so briefly because the debate has taken a slightly surreal turn. My reading of the clause is exactly the opposite of that of the hon. Gentleman.
The picture painted by some of the interventions is that non-priority homeless people are taking their pick of attractive properties in the area and may be competing with others or people who are not in the same market, and that local authorities might intervene with some bureaucratic procedure to stop them doing that.
My reading of the clause is that if somebody goes to a local authority with a duty under clause 5, it is much less restricted in how it can discharge that duty than would be the case for priority homeless people. That is why Shelter has asked for it to be made clear that this should be suitable accommodation under the 2012 homelessness regulations.
It would be wrong of me to oppose the clause. As I said in my remarks on clause 5, the onerous additional burdens placed on local authorities are likely to lead to their duty towards priority homeless people being subverted by the new duties. However, we should go into these matters with our eyes open. It will not be the applicant but the local authority that will be given a greater degree of flexibility. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is correct that this will be less bureaucratic and more effective, but to paint a picture that it somehow gives the keys to the housing market to those who come to local authorities with such a degree of need is, at best, wishful thinking.
Mr Jones
Clause 6 adds clarity to the homelessness prevention and relief duties. It ensures that the requirements that a local housing authority must meet when securing accommodation for applicants itself do not apply when it takes steps to help to secure accommodation. That common sense change means that authorities can work more efficiently and can direct resources to where they are needed most, and that households get the help they need while retaining their ability to make their own choices about where they live. The Government are therefore happy to support the clause.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 6 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 10
Duty of public authority to refer cases to local housing authority
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 2, in clause 10, page 16, line 31, at end insert—
“(3A) Where the specified public authority makes a notification to the local housing authority the public authority must cooperate with the housing authority in meeting its duties under sections 179, 189A, 195, 189B and 199A of the Housing Act 1996.”.
This amendment would ensure that where a public authority made a referral to a housing authority in respect of a person who is or may become homeless the public authority is under a duty to cooperate with the housing authority.
The amendment is very much in the spirit of clause 10, but it goes a bit further. This was an important matter when the Select Committee held its first inquiry into homelessness and produced its first report. Indeed, chapter 7 of our report was on cross-Government working—we might have called it “lack of cross-Government working,” given the evidence from various witnesses. In the chapter’s introduction we quoted the words of Howard Sinclair, the chief executive of St Mungo’s, who said that “Homelessness is everyone’s issue”. From the evidence we heard, the Select Committee decided that all Departments need to contribute to ending homelessness.
Jon Sparkes of Crisis said
“there is very little evidence that the influence of DCLG is spreading to the other Departments.”
The Minister looks a little hurt, but he should not. We are trying to help him in the battle he has to wage with his colleagues in other Departments. We want him to have meetings with colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions, who have produced proposals such as changing the supported accommodation allowances without any thought to what will actually happen to the accommodation provided for homeless people. That is not DCLG’s fault. As far as I know, DCLG was not even consulted. It is important for there to be genuine understanding of the actions of other Departments, such as the DWP or the Department of Health. We all know that homeless people often have mental health problems—mental health problems can cause homelessness, and homelessness can cause mental health problems—so co-operation with the Department of Health and all the various health organisations is essential.
As it stands, clause 10 is a good proposal. Authorities should be advised to contact the relevant housing authority when they recognise that a person with whom they are in contact is homeless or threatened with homelessness, which is an entirely reasonable starting point. The problem is that it is a bit like, “We have passed it over to you; it’s your problem now.” That is the exact opposite of what the Select Committee was trying to say in its report. It is not about saying, “We have identified that this person may be at risk of homelessness. Get on with it, housing authority. You will sort it out now. There is nothing else to it. It is simply a homelessness issue.” We stated very clearly that, right the way through, there has to be cross-Government working and a clear indication that that is going to happen.
My amendment therefore sets out the responsibility in a simple way. It might not go far enough, and I accept the criticism that it is too weak in its emphasis on what more can be done. All the amendment says is that an authority that passes on to a housing authority concerns about an individual who is homeless or threatened with homelessness has a duty to co-operate with the housing authority on meeting its duties. That seems to me an entirely reasonable proposition, and one that I hope we will all support.
I know the Minister’s colleagues in other Departments have to agree to any new burdens placed on them and that local authorities just have new burdens given to them; other Government Departments seem to have a say on what gets passed on to them. It seems to me entirely reasonable, and not an exceptional request, to say that while it is good that a public authority has to notify a housing authority when it comes across somebody who is homeless or who is threated with homelessness, should we not ask for that little bit more—that that public authority co-operates?
Mr Burrowes
It is a pleasure to take part in the debate. I welcome the intention and principle behind it, particularly because it flows into clause 10; it is just seeing how far it will bite. I particularly welcome the principle of joined-up services—we sometimes get sick of talking about joined-up Government, and it often does not mean that—when dealing with the concerns at the heart of clause 10, which is about trying to ensure that there is better co-ordination and co-operation.
As the co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on complex needs and dual diagnosis, I make particular reference to complex needs and to those people facing multiple disadvantage, and to the need to ensure that there is real co-operation. The litmus test of clause 10 is the implications of referrals for those with the most need and facing the most disadvantage. There is a particular impact on health: almost twice as many who use homeless services have long-term physical health problems and mental health diagnoses compared with the general public, and the average age of people who die while homeless is 47, which is scandalous.
That particularly comes into play when dealing with those who come into contact with health services in one form or another. Not least, homeless people might struggle to register with a GP because of not having a permanent address. A vicious cycle goes on where they end up in crisis management and in A&E. It is then a further scandal when the intervention that needs to take place at that stage does not. At the heart of the Bill is the fact that early intervention and preventive duties should not just stem from when people come into contact with the housing department. When they are in contact with the health services, and not least when they end up at A&E, that should lead to an intervention and referral, which leads to the co-operation that we want.
St Mungo’s has been on this case for a long time and has drawn attention to it with the “Homeless Health Matters” campaign. Before the Bill, it sought to have a charter that local authorities signed up to so that co-operation happened on an informal level. I believe that clause 10 takes things a huge step further as regards the statutory duty on referrals. The issue is how much further it explicitly needs to go with a mandatory requirement to co-operate across departments.
I also support the principle behind the amendment because, in many ways, it is already happening across Government—regardless of the cynicism that is around. One only has to look at the issue of violence against women and girls, which is a concern that we all share. If one looks at the national statement of expectations published on 7 December, one sees that it is all about co-operation. That comes from the Home Office and has a welcome two-year fund for refuges and other forms of accommodation. There is also all the extra investment in social impact bonds, in which co-operation is very much inbuilt. There are those with complex needs and the multi-agency approach that is used, although often not well enough. Sometimes these things are based around funding streams, and we need to see that happening across the country. The question is whether the duty to refer will help to ensure that good practice does happen across the country.
To home in on women—who are, sadly, some of the most vulnerable and face complex needs—the national statement of expectations from 7 December says:
“To deliver this, commissioners should…consider whether an individual may have complex needs or suffer from multiple disadvantage and, if so, the services in place to manage these…Commissioners should consider how these detect and respond to women’s experiences”
of violence, and ensure that there are services for them. That has come from the Home Office but plainly interacts across all Departments, and there is that expectation that it be delivered. At the end, the statement talks about how local authority, housing and homelessness policies must take account of sexual violence. That is included in the Bill in relation to the duties on advisory services; it is welcome that domestic violence is included, not least because of the work of the Select Committee.
The question is whether the Bill needs to go further in terms of a mandatory requirement for co-operation, or whether this referral will supplement and complement what is now happening to a much greater extent across Government. There is greater recognition and understanding of complex needs. Many of us have talked over the years about multi-agency approaches and joined-up government until we were blue in the face, but sadly these most vulnerable people are not getting what they need and deserve.
My view, which has been a common thread in discussions on the Bill, is that we need to balance doing what we can to ensure that this is a groundbreaking Bill—as I believe it is—that will help to provide greater support, preventive work and co-operation with whether this amendment will provide additional burdens across Government and have unintended consequences. Although it may provide a mandatory requirement—that, in many ways, is already the intention across Government—it might lead to additional financial burdens, which might lead to additional bureaucracy that might get in the way of the local co-operation between services that we want delivered on the ground. I am not convinced. If there is a proper fulfilment of the duty to refer, which may be wrapped up in guidance, having a mandatory co-operation requirement may provide additional undue financial burdens across Government and create bureaucracy that might, sadly, get in the way of what we want to do, which is to co-operate across services.